Why should 4's system be like Melees?

[KayB]

no, for me personally it makes more sense the way brawl has it. it's not like it's unpunishable, and with my idea of melee hitstun with it there's still combos and all the positional disadvantages and punishes that melee players love. also logically while melee airdodges worked for melee, it was kinda weird that you could just position the way you were going to airdodge, and that you could airdodge into the ground and slide across it.

you can still blow up people who overabuseairdodges with frame traps, obviously, too

I still don't see how its a step-up from Melee air dodges. Using the ability to shift directions mid-air using the air dodge, Melee air dodges provided mind games when it came to recovery and gave many characters new options when approaching off-stage. This changed character's recoveries dramatically. Air dodging's only function in Brawl really is just "side-stepping" in mid-air which doesn't add much depth outside its primary function. I personally think that Melee's air dodge system also adopts a "risk = reward" system, which I think is more fair.

And I'm listing reasons outside of wavedashing.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Super Smash Bros Flash 2 in a nutshell: Pick Mega Man, spam Neutral-B = PERFECT EDGEGUARD.

 

[KayB]

Ledge-Cancelling makes Smash Flash 2 mad fun.

 

[FirestormNeos]

Ledge-Cancelling makes Smash Flash 2 mad fun.

I have two separate responses to this.

1. how do you ledge cancel?

2. That, and DAT MUSIC.

 

[KayB]

I have two separate responses to this.

1. how do you ledge cancel?

2. That, and DAT MUSIC.

How you would normally do it in Melee, except the timing and precision is much less strict.

And if you don't play Melee, you ledge-cancel a move by doing an aerial and landing it at the tip of a ledge/edge of platform. The act of landing on the platform cancels the aerial, and landing on the tip causes you to slide of the edge/ledge, allowing you to pull of another aerial.

Essentially its like l-cancelling, except with a ledge instead of L and R.

 

[FirestormNeos]

How you would normally do it in Melee, except the timing and precision is much less strict.

And if you don't play Melee, you ledge-cancel a move by doing an aerial and landing it at the tip of a ledge/edge of platform. The act of landing on the platform cancels the aerial, and landing on the tip causes you to slide of the edge/ledge, allowing you to pull of another aerial.

Essentially its like l-cancelling, except with a ledge instead of L and R.

Well okay then.

And again, DAT MUSIC.

 

[Dantarion]

My two sense on this topic.

Sakurai did not make Brawl to be competitive.
BUT, Sakurai did not make Melee to be competitive either. It was complete accident that Melee ended up like it did.

The difference between Melee and Brawl are very small. So small, that a team of people, without Nintendo support or tools, could make Brawl into a game that almost frameperfetly resembles Melee in some aspects. *cought cough* ProjectM

For Smash4 to be compeitive, it doesn't need to copy Melee, although thats not a bad starting point.

What I personally love about Melee is that it provided a learning curve to the game that actually allowed you to try to cirumvent your characters weaknesses.

Got slow aerial recovery? L-Cancel! Sure, it works on fast characters, but the amount of frames say, DK saves by L-Canceling, is much larger than the amount fox will save!

Want to do a lagless aerial? Edge Cancel! Sure, its stage and positioning dependant, but it may allow you to throw out a slow much without being punished!


The big thing that I am upset about Smash4 videos so far is that it is using Brawl style SCD and Brawl like floaty physics, which are two things that made the shorthop based gameplay of Melee not work in Brawl. In Brawl your options on the ground are very limited, as dashing makes it so you can only do dash attack, jump, shield, or upsmash. This means that jumping is probably your best option. But if you hit a shield on block, their is low shieldstun, and you can be punished! So its best to hit someones shield and move far away, because theres not much you can do to maintain shield pressure.

For example DK vs Grounded Shielding Falco, almost all of DK's options lose to shieldgrab

 

[Dantarion]

accidental doubepost

 

[SmashBro99]

It won't be so no worries

 

[peeup]

Ignorance.

I think most Melee players problem with Brawl is of how painfully slow it is. It greatly rewards defensive playstyle which just slows everything down. Things like shielding mechanics in Brawl means you can't put pressure onto shields as safely as you could in previous games. With ledge snap mechanics and increased floatiness meant edgeguarding recovering characters became both harder and often times less rewarding or even riskier than in Melee. Hell, in Brawl plenty of characters can be PUNISHED for hitting the opponent(just go look at Jigglypuff)... Stuff like this is only made worse by the fact that you can't combo much in Brawl, so you don't even gain much for trying to be aggressive and attacking the opponent. So matches tend to come down to pure spacing and punishing...

Anyway yeah, I think when it comes back to Smash 4, people who enjoyed Melee are looking at things like the general ability to combo (hitstun), the general ability to recover (floatiness/edge snapping), the ability to safely pressure opponents (l-cancelling/instant shield dropping) hoping that the game won't feel slow. Although I think it's too early to be overanalyzing the trailers right now considering it could easily change (Brawl demo had way more similarities to Melee than the final version did)... So yeah. They're just worried that Smash 4 will be slow, which isn't conductive to a competitive gaming environment. Looking back, Brawl was definitely designed more with party games in mind. It was meant to be played for fun, not competitively. That's why Melee players say "I don't want another Brawl'. It's not about specific advanced tech. abilities. It's about the overall feel of the game.

That's just my observations and opinion though, I suppose.

I'm a Brawl player, but this is just too damn true for me to not back this guy up. If you're going to post on this thread, or on any thread relating to Melee vs Brawl or how that relates to Smash 4, read this post right now. This man has summed up everything that many Brawl players are too stupid to realize, or that many Melee players are too assholic to say so eloquently.

 

[SmashBro99]

oops my bad