Why Ness does better against MK than marth does

[Ref]

4. WHO THE HELL argues that unsafe is better than safe? I saw stuff getting thrown around a moment ago like "safe options that are used often can get predictable" The POINT of a safe option is that you can do that and get away with it. And the fact that it can get predictable doesn't make an unsafe option any better in that situation.


8. MK can fair in front of a shield safely. He can tap a shield w/ fair safely against a wide array of characters. Including ness.

9. MK generally waits for people to get somewhat close to the edge rather than chase them out far. Therefore, his airspeed is suited for this. Glide is never used to chase an opponent.


EDIT: G&W can do a well spaced bair into ness's shield and get punished by the ness forcing a bad spacing next time. Remember, it takes 2 to space.

4. I was not arguing safe is better than unsafe I was arguing against the point that a player can continuously use a safe move and not be punished for it.

8. Ness can pretty much do the same to MK.

9. True this is why Ness most try to space the distance out well with his F air and various projectiles.

 

[Gaussis]

@Dekar: No one really flamed. I just advised you to look back at the posts before yours and read. We had already discussed the gimping part.

Just relax.

 

[silver0p]

WELL i think that this topic has turned into an invanced for of opinion....

 

[Dekar173]

You obviously don't know anything about the characters being discussed. I suggest you read the previous posts if you really want to say something.

Accusing someone of lacking knowledge is flaming in my eyes. It's the equivalent of saying "you're ignorant."

 

[Masky]

sasadsadadadsadsa

 

[Gaussis]

Anyone sitting here saying Ness is LESS gimpable than Marth has got to be kidding themselves.

Jump into PKT1

Recovery over, and I haven't risked my own death.

Jump into Marth and even attempt edgeguarding DRAGONPUNCH SPIKE OH NO I BETTER TECH.


If you only have experience online, you have no experience at all. People may do wonderfully online where there's literally no buffer system (what makes Brawl speed up from it's sluggish gameplay) but the instant they go to a real tournament they get smacked down and 3-stocked.

But this isn't a debate about online, this is about someone thinking Ness is a better match-up against MK than Marth, which is not true.

Anything MK can do to Marth, he can do to Ness, except more mindlessly and with less chance of being punished.

"But Ness can spike him once in a bluemoon!" "But he's scared of PKT2!!!" "But Ness can PKF him!!!"

Airdodge. Avoid PKT2 with vastly superior air mobility. POWERSHIELD, or DI UP AND OUT OF PKFIRE.

Honestly, it's a nobrainer. Marth > Ness against MK. I don't WANT it to be that way, but that's how it is. Quit lying to yourselves and just go start practicing so your own Ness doesn't get defecated upon by some dickrider Metaknight player.

Sidenote: Tornado isn't the fix all for any MK player. It's the fix all for bad MK players.

Some of these bolded parts were lacking of reasoning. I didn't call you ignorant. It just seemed that you were just ranting for the sake of ranting. If you take my post as a form of offense, then I take it back.

You obviously don't know anything about the characters being discussed. I suggest you read the previous posts if you really want to say something.

 

[Dekar173]

Ness' recovery is EXTREMELY predictable, if MK gets him below the stage and in a way that he NEEDS to rely on his upB in order to get the distance to recover, all MK has to do is space himself properly and jump into PKT1 (head, not tail).

Dair isn't a fix all. Not everyone is going to jump into the dair thinking "I'll be faster than you and escape death!"

PKT2 isn't that scary once people realize the mechanics of it and it's capabilities.

PKFire does NOT trap ANYONE. If they DI up, they WILL escape it. It is good as a setup if you know what they're going to do, but it's by no means a trap.

 

[Levitas]

Sure it doesn't make more unsafe moves better, but that's the downside to safe moves.

Fair enough, although being predictable with any move, safe or not, is poor playing. Unless you can get away with it.

He can? I was sure that he could get punished by characters with fast/long ranged attacks as he lands.

Most characters don't have an option, like ness. MK dtilt/dsmash helps this be true. Note that MK fair is better than Bair for pressure.

People sat here and flamed my opinions because I haven't frequented these boards in months, not because of what I was saying but simply because they didn't recognize my name any more. That's why I felt it necessary to insult them.

No johns. The heaviest stuff I saw came from you, and defending your opinions is best accomplished w/o pissing off the other party. If I saw heavier stuff from anyone else, I would have called them out on it.

Why do they even come to these boards if they're not even going to read and assess what other people have to say?

all the more reason for you to not distract people from legit points with space-wasting-attention-grabbing-time-burning flames.

8. Ness can pretty much do the same to MK.

Kinda sorta. even w/ no lag on that fair, the lack of shieldstun in brawl makes that 4F MK dsmash hit all the more often, and you won't be able to land into a pressure move with ness AND stay out of MK's range. In other words, by landing after a pressure move with ness, you give up initiative to MK.

Ness' recovery is EXTREMELY predictable, if MK gets him below the stage and in a way that he NEEDS to rely on his upB in order to get the distance to recover, all MK has to do is space himself properly and jump into PKT1 (head, not tail).

This is a strawman argument. I can do that too. Ness will know better than MK whether he will end up needing to use a PKT recovery and space himself well out of MK's horizontal movement range to give himself time to get the PKT off.

In reality, PKT can work as a recovery, even against MK. The problem comes from knowing when to close the gap to the stage w/ a DJ alone or with a PKT + DJ. Ness screws up on his first attempt to recover, and he's dead.

Dair isn't a fix all. Not everyone is going to jump into the dair thinking "I'll be faster than you and escape death!"

Fact.

PKFire does NOT trap ANYONE. If they DI up, they WILL escape it. It is good as a setup if you know what they're going to do, but it's by no means a trap.

I'm amazed that so many people here rave about PKF. Neither one is good, and Ness's is clearly worse than lucas's. Subpar damage, a lot of lag, punishable on hit AND miss, and limited rage all make for a bad move.

 

[silver0p]

personaly i feel that if you guys belive in what you are saying then stop ranting about them and then just practice what you preach, in turnnys and in every day brawling,instead of flamming other people who think other ways. i mean are you trying to get them to go with your idea or do you just feel the need to say that they are dumb for conisdering something else then what you think? personaly i dont know whats better

1. it depends on cercumstances
2. the skill lvl of who ever is playing you and the opponent
3. and just dumb luck
4. your ability to apply stuff and expect the unexpected

so needless to say i think that this topic is just an opinon with people out of control!

"wow thanks silver your so smart! lets stop this pointless arguing and just do w.e we think is best! "

 

[Uffe]

Accusing someone of lacking knowledge is flaming in my eyes. It's the equivalent of saying "you're ignorant."

Practice what you preach.

Uffe I take it you're what, 15? You'll come to hear much worse things than what I've posted, so good luck with real life kiddo.

 

[silver0p]

hummmm uffe i dont think you are understanding what i ment when i say practice what you preach.....

 

[PMKNG]

wow thanks silver your so smart! lets stop this pointless arguing and just do w.e we think is best!

my two cents :3

 

[ColinJF]

I've never used an ignore list before but I might start to make use of one for A2ZOMG.

p.s. A2ZOMG doesn't know anything about the mechanics of Ness's forward air... or anything about Ness... or indeed anything about Brawl.

 

[Levitas]

Skill based games give advantages to players that put themselves at an advantage. If you want to go anywhere in a competitive level, you need to understand this. If it's not your thing, don't judge competitive players, the debate they generate, or the conclusions they come to by your standards.

That said, flame is pointless and bad.

personaly i feel that if you guys belive in what you are saying then stop ranting about them and then just practice what you preach, in turnnys and in every day brawling,instead of flamming other people who think other ways. i mean are you trying to get them to go with your idea or do you just feel the need to say that they are dumb for conisdering something else then what you think? personaly i dont know whats better

We shouldn't debate trivial things like whether the newtonian concept of gravity is correct for any given circumstance and instead go with whatever model we feel like and see what happens. Good debate is good. However, you're correct in that the amount of unproductive activity here is bad.

1. it depends on cercumstances
2. the skill lvl of who ever is playing you and the opponent
3. and just dumb luck
4. your ability to apply stuff and expect the unexpected

Games are determined by that stuff all the time. There's also other factors. Like matchups. For example, Ness vs MK and Marth vs MK. Those are two of the more important matchups to this board, as a mater of fact.

"wow thanks silver your so smart! lets stop this pointless arguing and just do w.e we think is best! "

As the topic creator, I don't think this topic is pointless. The sooner the kind of thought that makes people argue with my initial point is stemmed, the better off the ness boards are in competition.

 

[xoxokev]

Ness counters Metaknight

Spoiler

Just kidding, but seriously...

 

[silver0p]

i see what ya saying about the last part but i didnt mean to say the thread was pointless just the pointless arguing about stuff this topic isnt even about like....

Uffe I take it you're what, 15? You'll come to hear much worse things than what I've posted, so good luck with real life kiddo

just dumb stuff like that. when i think we should do constructive arguing rather then pointless. as to say when you argue dont make ignorant post, but rather just say what you think is best for the situation then read the comments about then

1. farther giving reasons why you think that's true
2. modifi you thinking
3. if you dont like it don't post.

as in pointless where you feel compelled to say w.e you wont even if it doesn't pertain to the subject as long as you make someone else look dumb, or just criticize someone for saying something different

i think that if we do that then more or less we will get some where with out....

space-wasting-attention-grabbing-time-burning flames

my case is closed good day, wot~!

 

[cutter]

WOW I go to my computer after a commerical and I see this.

lol this is basically the G&W/Ness matchup being discussed.

 

[ColinJF]

If you mean both of them involve A2ZOMG posting nonsense then I'd say that's a rock solid analysis. In that sense, nearly any thread where A2ZOMG posts could be said to be similar to a Ness v. Game & Watch match up discussion.

I'm sure A2ZOMG means well but it doesn't do any good to have uninformed posters come in and talk about how X character "*****" Ness when they don't even know basic facts such as the mechanics of Ness's forward air (hint: the position of its large hitbox is independent of Ness's position).

By the way... just so there's no confusion, my opinion is that Ness does worse than Marth versus Meta Knight (but only a bit worse).

 

[cutter]

A2ZOMG does tend to exaggerate things at times, but he's correct in what he was saying about GW/Ness. We had discussed the GW/Ness matchup in our matchup thread and he was basically resurrecting old info from GW/Ness.

Maybe I should just bring in the rest of the GW community.

 

[Levitas]

You're welcome to. Just not here. This is a thread about Marth and Ness vs MK.

You'll note the lack of G&W

 

[Dekar173]

Colin, I haven't seen a single post saying ANYTHING constructive from you.

Silver, I'm going to go ahead and guess English isn't your first language, in which case good job understanding a second language, I only speak English :[

Ref, where's your argument against Levitas?

Uffe, you say "good job!" in the Ness placement thread to every result posted, but you don't positively constribute to Ness' metagame through discussions like these.

Levitas, I could sit here and baby these people into understanding where I'm coming from in my posts, or I could present facts in a ******** fashion. I prefer the latter, as this is the internet and if you don't *****smack people into reality every once and a while, they'll never come to the realization that they're not always right, no matter how hard they plug their ears.

I'll also add that I am not a regular here anymore, and so it's ok that everyone made the assumption that I don't know anything about Ness. But really people, you've gotta actually read the statements made, THEN come to your conclusions. Don't read "omg it's Levitas, this must be correct" or "Mew2king! Oh my, well I always DID think Ness' fair was a bit slow!" or "Dekar? This guy's an *******, I couldn't possibly like what he's about to say..." read what's being said, if it rings true, then type out your responses.

M2K may be amazing, Levitas may have great advice, and I may be an *******, but qualifications have nothing to do with what's actually said.

 

[Levitas]

You do things your way and I'll do things mine. We'll see who people listen to.

 

[Green-Machine]

Dekar yes sometimes your right and other people arent but being a big tough guy on the computer just proves one of two things...

1. You have NO life outside of brawl

2. You have NO life outside of brawl


You get where im coming from? so if you just shut the hell up and listen to what other people say instead of what you wanna hear people wont want to hit you in your face.

 

[thesage]

So many stupid things being posted by both sides. Can we just shut up? In the long run it doesn't really matter since there are like 4 Ness players in the US (that go to tournaments). It's impossible to get an accurate guage of Ness matchuips with so little tournament visibility. He could be ***** hard by every character and we don't know it since nobody really knows the matchup that well (on both sides).

 

[Dekar173]

Big tough guy on the computer? I won't even bother answering that ******** post.

thesage: yes, that is a huge issue with Ness players. Either they aren't of age to be going to tournaments (as I've read in some posts on this board) or they don't/can't believe in their skill levels being capable of actually placing (which may be the worse issue of the two, who knows) which keeps them from actually participating.

Honestly, you people need to try and push your parents to start being allowed to participate in tourneys, start pushing to earn some extra cash you can spare and dump it on some entry fees, get out there and participate! Even if you're not winning the whole pot or even a margin of it, tourney-going is still one of the funnest things a smash player can participate in.

I WISH I lived in a place with as big a smash scene as half of you. Take advantage of it!

 

[thesage]

At least you know of the existence of Lufia 2.

And yea, there are literally 5 people who play Ness in tournaments in the US (me, Ref, Vicegrip, Neomagic, Protein, Edrees counts for 1/4).

And yea, I do live in a very good area for smash, too bad I'm off to college next year.

Lolrepresentation.

 

[Ref]

At least you know of the existence of Lufia 2.

And yea, there are literally 5 people who play Ness in tournaments in the US (me, Ref, Vicegrip, Neomagic, Protein, Edrees counts for 1/4).

And yea, I do live in a very good area for smash, too bad I'm off to college next year.

Lolrepresentation.

Sage go do well at college.

Yeah we can't really discuss this, it's going like no where. Ness is played to little in tourney to even decide many match ups, or even really properly discuss him as a character.

Anyway I heard Dekar was pretty good with Ness at some point.

 

[thesage]

I would also like to state that any posts I made in this thread were not that Marth does worse/better than Ness vs. MK. I supported that the matchup was 60-40 Mk vs. Ness. IMO Mk vs. Marth is 55-45 Mk and Marth players are just whiny that they have a matchup they actually have to try in >_>;

 

[Ref]

I would also like to state that any posts I made in this thread were not that Marth does worse/better than Ness vs. MK. I supported that the matchup was 60-40 Mk vs. Ness. IMO Mk vs. Marth is 55-45 Mk and Marth players are just whiny that they have a matchup they actually have to try in >_>;

This. It was talked about earlier in the thread. It's the most accurate conclusion we have so far...

I agree some boards just want to complain about MK, to the point they don't realize that their match up against him is wrong.

 

[Levitas]

Smash64 does ok w/ ness, he's in Ohio. that makes 6ish. I've been known to pull out ness in brackets.

 

[thesage]

Smash64 does ok w/ ness, he's in Ohio. that makes 6ish. I've been known to pull out ness in brackets.

You don't count. Alright 6. What a represented character lol.