Why Ness does better against MK than marth does

[Dekar173]

@A2Z yes MK ***** Ness, but that's not the discussion. Everyone in here is trying to let themselves believe the notion that Ness v MK is a better matchup than Marth v MK. Poor souls.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight has a ton of attacks that outrange G&W's B-air, WHICH solidly outranges your F-air in the first place.

He does better "comboing", getting out of combos, and edgeguarding.

Safe kill moves are better than unsafe kill moves period. I don't care that Ness can kill at like 90% with a F-smash. It's unsafe, and it's too slow. Metaknight can kill you at 130% or so with a D-smash and you can do almost nothing to punish it that will kill him back.

G&W vs Ness is 70/30 in G&W's favor easily. We shut down your approach with B-air and D-tilt and don't have trouble edgeguarding your predictable recovery, and our kill moves are safe. You don't have any safe kill moves and landing a grab is hard on a good G&W who spaces B-airs tightly. If you think the matchup is otherwise, you're wrong. I've 2-stocked and 3-stocked clinton a bunch of times and I have replays to show for it.

Metaknight basically has the same advantages on Ness. Better range (= no approaches on a good metaknight), better KO moves, way better at controlling the air, better at controlling offstage. It should easily be around 70/30 in MK's favor.

Metaknight's air mobility is not bad. He just doesn't move laterally quickly. He CAN however move vertically fast, and his horizontal acceleration is good.

 

[Gaussis]

I'm curious to know. How do you tackle the matchup? Because you seem very stubbornly bent that this matchup sucks for Ness.

Metaknight has a ton of attacks that outrange G&W's B-air, WHICH solidly outranges your F-air in the first place. (G&W's bair leans his hurtbox forward. That's why MK beat's it in range. Ness's fair does no such thing and varies in range depending on use.)

He does better "comboing", getting out of combos, and edgeguarding.

Safe kill moves are better than unsafe kill moves period. (Safe =/= reliable. Ness's bthrow is reliable, but isn't safe to go for 100% of the time. Likewise, G&W's smashes can be safe, but they aren't reliable if your opponent is safer than you.) I don't care that Ness can kill at like 90% with a F-smash. It's unsafe, and it's too slow. Metaknight can kill you at 130% or so with a D-smash and you can do almost nothing to punish it that will kill him back. (Dsmash ends up being very stale in the matchup. Unless MK wants to save it, which just weakens his ground game unnecessarily.)

G&W vs Ness is 70/30 in G&W's favor easily. We shut down your approach with B-air (Our bair can break it) and D-tilt (nair or dair can break this one) and don't have trouble edgeguarding your predictable (to you yes, again setups) recovery, and out kill moves are safe. You don't have any safe kill moves (bair, uair after dair) and landing a grab is hard on a good G&W who spaces B-airs tightly. If you think the matchup is otherwise, you're wrong. I've 2-stocked and 3-stocked clinton a bunch of times and I have replays to show for it. (On wifi???)

Metaknight basically has the same advantages on Ness. Better range (= no approaches on a good metaknight) (Ness's range is superior to MK in the air), better KO moves (not really, MK's kill moves: dsmash will end up stale for players that use this move, shuttle loop only if you DI it wrong, and nair is a threat, but lacks range, the rest of his kills will probably be gimps), way better at controlling the air (With a poor airspeed? Also, his glide sucks against PKT.), better at controlling offstage. It should easily be around 70/30 in MK's favor.

Metaknight's air mobility is not bad. He just doesn't move laterally quickly. He CAN however move vertically fast, and his horizontal acceleration is good. He has one of the worst airspeeds in the game. His only saving grace is the glide when it comes to airspeed.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'm curious to know. How do you tackle the matchup? Because you seem very stubbornly bent that this matchup sucks for Ness.

Which matchup? Vs G&W? Or vs Metaknight?

 

[Masky]

Well Zero Suit's side-b outranges everything so she must be better than metaknight

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well Zero Suit's side-b outranges everything so she must be better than metaknight

Better than Ness. Metaknight isn't bothered by most camping just because he's fast enough to get in and punish out of shield for almost everything.

 

[Dekar173]

This matchup sucks horribly for Ness, yes.

Fair seems to be everyone's fix all, when in fact MK will be able to outspace us and avoid it almost entirely.

All I can say about fair is do NOT use it unless if MK is airborne, grounded he's just going to shieldgrab you (shields can be aimed, don't expect to poke).

A "decent" brickwall against MK is to space a PK jump > rising nair > dair > jab combo, repeat, whatever. It autocancels and so if MK shields it and doesn't retaliate in time, or even spotdodges, he is punishable by a SH double nair or even a jab combo.

While recovering, all you can do is basically pray that he doesn't take advantage of your lack of options.

Yoyo clanks with glideattack then hits? Or does it simply go away like most other attacks =/

Also, I'd love to see more bthrow > fthrow chaingrabs in everyone's videos. Most opponents expect to be dthrown at low percents, and 20% > 9% with a chance to fair >.>

uthrow and PKT1 juggle is good, since everyone is correct about his HORIZONTAL movement, the thunder can be tricky for him to avoid (don't mention tornado as getting around it either, that leaves him open)

bthrow at 105 kills on either side of FD, and 110 gets a vertical KO if he has good DI (guaranteed kill)


Counterpick stage? Pirate Ship.

 

[Masky]

Better than Ness. Metaknight isn't bothered by most camping just because he's fast enough to get in and punish out of shield for almost everything.

metaknight can upsmash, jump+aerial, and up-b out of shield. which one of these exactly would punish a zero suit's side-b? Ness and Metaknight both have frame 3 or whatever aerials they can do out of shield which wouldn't reach and shuttle loop won't reach

and my point was that range isn't the most important thing but you're pretty dumb so w/e

 

[Ref]

Metaknight has a ton of attacks that outrange G&W's B-air, WHICH solidly outranges your F-air in the first place.

He does better "comboing", getting out of combos, and edgeguarding.

Safe kill moves are better than unsafe kill moves period. I don't care that Ness can kill at like 90% with a F-smash. It's unsafe, and it's too slow. Metaknight can kill you at 130% or so with a D-smash and you can do almost nothing to punish it that will kill him back.

G&W vs Ness is 70/30 in G&W's favor easily. We shut down your approach with B-air and D-tilt and don't have trouble edgeguarding your predictable recovery, and out kill moves are safe. You don't have any safe kill moves and landing a grab is hard on a good G&W who spaces B-airs tightly. If you think the matchup is otherwise, you're wrong. I've 2-stocked and 3-stocked clinton a bunch of times and I have replays to show for it.

Metaknight basically has the same advantages on Ness. Better range, better KO moves, way better at controlling the air, better at controlling offstage.

Ness out range's MK, Ness' KO moves, while not all of them are completely safe most are, Ness also KO's much earlier than MK. He has tools to abuse MK's slow aerial mobility along with floatiness.

He also has tools to punish MK, PK fire is one of those to punish moves like F smashes or Down smashes. A Ness can hurt MK's aerial approaches with the yo yo. Ness' Dashing grab has amazing range, a good tool for punishment on MK. Ness' N air out prioritizes MK's N air. A back air on MK has a weird effect due to the nature of the move, it can be used to pressure well. Ness' U air is effective on Mk's low aerial mobility, combined with a D air to start the opening for a U air, it is painful for MK.

MK is also easily shield stabbed plenty. This is an advantage to Ness in it's self, PKT2 can easily hit through that, D airs can get him from above since he is pretty much a perfect height for it. Well spaced PK Fires damage MK some. The speed of MK's d smash leads it to being quite stale due to it being used to punish some, especially when you DI it properly you lead it to being stale as well.

Learning to Keep your DJ is essential for this match up.

About Clinton, Nobody really cares much about WiFi, in fact it proves nothing but who's better on wifi.

 

[Gaussis]

Which matchup? Vs G&W? Or vs Metaknight?

Sorry. That part of the post was directed to Dekar.

 

[Masky]

This matchup sucks horribly for MK, yes.

Fair seems to be everyone's fix all, when in fact Ness will be able to outspace us and avoid it almost entirely.

All I can say about fair is do NOT use it unless if Ness is airborne, grounded he's just going to shieldgrab you (shields can be aimed, don't expect to poke).

A "decent" brickwall against Ness is to space a shuttle loop -> glide attack -> dsmash combo, repeat, whatever. It autocancels and so if Ness shields it and doesn't retaliate in time, or even spotdodges, he is punishable by a SH nair or even a ftilt

While recovering, all you can do is basically pray that he doesn't take advantage of your lack of options.








see what I did?

 

[A2ZOMG]

G&W's bair leans his hurtbox forward. That's why MK beat's it in range. Ness's fair does no such thing and varies in range depending on use.

HAHAHA, and you think that means jack? The disjointed part of G&W's B-air outranges Ness's F-air. Metaknight's sword still beats out your F-air. If he's not beating it out consistently, he really sucks at spacing.

Safe kill moves are better than unsafe kill moves period. Safe =/= reliable. Ness's bthrow is reliable, but isn't safe to go for 100% of the time. Likewise, G&W's smashes can be safe, but they aren't reliable if your opponent is safer than you. I don't care that Ness can kill at like 90% with a F-smash. It's unsafe, and it's too slow. Metaknight can kill you at 130% or so with a D-smash and you can do almost nothing to punish it that will kill him back. Dsmash ends up being very stale in the matchup. Unless MK wants to save it, which just weakens his ground game unnecessarily.

It doesn't matter. Safe things can be done over and over until they work. Unsafe things can't be done over and over and expect to work. In high level play where safety rules everything, Metaknight clearly wins when it comes to kill moves.

Our bair can break it and D-tilt nair or dair can break this one

Nope, I've tested this over and over again. Ness CANNOT punish a properly spaced B-air. You can't punish D-tilt either unless he spaced it EXTREMELY badly.

On wifi???

G&W is a lot worse on wifi where tight spacing doesn't exist. Ness is better on wifi where his camping is harder to react to and he can get grabs more due to stupid delay making it harder to react to (although his recovery is more difficult to do, but it's also MUCH harder for G&W to properly edgecamp on Wifi).

He has one of the worst airspeeds in the game. His only saving grace is the glide when it comes to airspeed.

FALSE.

Metaknight has BY FAR better air mobility than Sonic. How can this be?

Sonic and Metaknight have the exact opposite type of air mobility. Sonic's top speed is fast, but his acceleration is horrendous. Metaknight's acceleration is fast, but his top speed his low. Acceleration matters more as it allows you to make spot on changes to your spacing.

The only time Metaknight's low air mobility really hurts him is against G&W's U-air stall, which is difficult to escape.

 

[MrEh]

Metaknight has BY FAR better air mobility than Sonic. How can this be?

Sonic and Metaknight have the exact opposite type of air mobility. Sonic's top speed is fast, but his acceleration is horrendous. Metaknight's acceleration is fast, but his top speed his low. Acceleration matters more as it allows you to make spot on changes to your spacing.

This is why Jigglypuff is so awesome in the air.

Super fast air speed and godly acceleration.

 

[Masky]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Air_speed#Brawl_Air_speed_ranking

get owned

 

[Dekar173]

metaknight can upsmash, jump+aerial, and up-b out of shield. which one of these exactly would punish a zero suit's side-b? Ness and Metaknight both have frame 3 or whatever aerials they can do out of shield which wouldn't reach and shuttle loop won't reach

and my point was that range isn't the most important thing but you're pretty dumb so w/e

You seem to have missed his point entirely kind young gent. G&W's turtle has good range and is FAST.

ZSS side B has huge range YES, but it is far too slow to be used as an approach, like Ness fair or G&W's bair can be.

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Air_speed#Brawl_Air_speed_ranking

get owned

Your point is moot. That only is TOP SPEEDS. It does not account for acceleration which is BY FAR more important.

I mean Sonic has great top speed, but his mobility suuuuuuuuuuuucks due to his ****ing poor acceleration. Once he goes in the air, he has to commit to one direction, killing his spacing a lot.

 

[Masky]

Your point is moot. That only is TOP SPEEDS. It does not account for acceleration and fall speed which is BY FAR more important.

I mean Sonic has great top speed, but his mobility suuuuuuuuuuuucks due to his ****ing poor acceleration. Once he goes in the air, he has to commit to one direction, killing his spacing a lot.

where's the acceleration list?

 

[Gaussis]

HAHAHA, and you think that means jack? The disjointed part of G&W's B-air outranges Ness's F-air. Metaknight's sword still beats out your F-air. If he's not beating it out consistently, he really sucks at spacing.

This is significant. If you have a more disjointed hitbox, it means nothing if your character leans too far forward so as to be vulnerable.

It doesn't matter. Safe things can be done over and over until they work. Unsafe things can't be done over and over and expect to work. In high level play where safety rules everything, Metaknight clearly wins when it comes to kill moves.

Well actually, safe things done over and over again can get very predictable. Also, safe things usually don't have a high reward. In this case, the latter is excusable.

Nope, I've tested this over and over again. Ness CANNOT punish a properly spaced B-air. You can't punish D-tilt either unless he spaced it EXTREMELY badly.
G&W is a lot worse on wifi where tight spacing doesn't exist. Ness is better on wifi where his camping is harder to react to and he can get grabs more due to stupid delay making it harder to react to (although his recovery is more difficult to do, but it's also MUCH harder for G&W to properly edgecamp on Wifi).

For the bair, Ness will trade hits if he hits through the bair, which is best done using a DJ bair. Even when the turtle is out, bair will hit. In fact, I will try to get a video to show how it's done.

On wifi, Ness can't space either. Not to mention PKT is HORRIBLE for some people at times. It's very subjective, so it shouldn't really count.

FALSE.

Metaknight has BY FAR better air mobility than Sonic. How can this be?

Sonic and Metaknight have the exact opposite type of air mobility. Sonic's top speed is fast, but his acceleration is horrendous. Metaknight's acceleration is fast, but his top speed his low. Acceleration matters more as it allows you to make spot on changes to your spacing.

Both have poor air mobility anyway without the use of specials, so why does this matter?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Go test for yourself. There isn't an official list, but Metaknight clearly has better air mobility than someone like Sonic.

 

[Masky]

You seem to have missed his point entirely kind young gent. G&W's turtle has good range and is FAST.

ZSS side B has huge range YES, but it is far too slow to be used as an approach, like Ness fair or G&W's bair can be.

no really answer my question about the out of shield thing, what can mk do that ness can't?

 

[Masky]

Go test for yourself. There isn't an official list, but Metaknight clearly has better air mobility than someone like Sonic.

you can't just say random stuff without backing it up fool

 

[Ref]

HAHAHA, and you think that means jack? The disjointed part of G&W's B-air outranges Ness's F-air. Metaknight's sword still beats out your F-air. If he's not beating it out consistently, he really sucks at spacing.

Clearly doesn't play Ness.

It doesn't matter. Safe things can be done over and over until they work. Unsafe things can't be done over and over and expect to work. In high level play where safety rules everything, Metaknight clearly wins when it comes to kill moves.

Repeating safe things means predictable therefore means punishment, doing a non safe thing means unpredictable, therefore while you may punish it you can be sure it won't really be predictable. It's the reasons why slow moves can be landed. Go ahead repeat safe moves I'll get you while your hit boxes are out or start up. Ness has more KO power, and about the same amount of KO moves, this makes up for a lot. Ness' moves are landable and so are MK's land it right and there is no punishment.

Nope, I've tested this over and over again. Ness CANNOT punish a properly spaced B-air. You can't punish D-tilt either unless he spaced it EXTREMELY badly.

Doesn't play Ness.

G&W is a lot worse on wifi where tight spacing doesn't exist. Ness is better on wifi where his camping is harder to react to and he can get grabs more due to stupid delay making it harder to react to (although his recovery is more difficult to do, but it's also MUCH harder for G&W to properly edgecamp on Wifi).

Doesn't play Ness.

FALSE.

Metaknight has BY FAR better air mobility than Sonic. How can this be?

Sonic and Metaknight have the exact opposite type of air mobility. Sonic's top speed is fast, but his acceleration is horrendous. Metaknight's acceleration is fast, but his top speed his low. Acceleration matters more as it allows you to make spot on changes to your spacing.

Low aerial mobility is low aerial mobility, Ness can thrive on this.

It seems like we are arguing which character is better and not the match up... Responses in bold.

 

[A2ZOMG]

This is significant. If you have a more disjointed hitbox, it means nothing if your character leans too far forward so as to be vulnerable.

Wow, you don't understand spacing at all.

Well actually, safe things done over and over again can get very predictable. Also, safe things usually don't have a high reward. In this case, the latter is excusable.

Wow, extremely bad logic. Metaknight has MANY more safe things he can do that can kill than Ness. Your logic of safe being predictable doesn't mean anything. And no, Metaknight's safe things DO have a high reward. This is why he's god tier. Metaknight's safe tilts and safe aerials all rack up damage fast and get him around diminishing returns. His D-smash is a great KO move and great for getting people offstage since it hits outwards so low. His F-smash kills approaches. His Up-B is amazing out of shield and gimps people.

For the bair, Ness will trade hits if he hits through the bair, which is best done using a DJ bair. Even when the turtle is out, bair will hit. In fact, I will try to get a video to show how it's done.

That is G&W spacing very badly. At the optimal range, G&W's B-air shuts down all of your aerials.

On wifi, Ness can't space either. Not to mention PKT is HORRIBLE for some people at times. It's very subjective, so it shouldn't really count.

G&W relies on spacing more than Ness. Ness camps, and it's harder to stop on wifi. clinton recovers with PK thunder very consistently and tries to do mindgames with it, which I punish out of shield very consistently.

Both have poor air mobility anyway without the use of specials, so why does this matter?

You're wrong, Metaknight's air mobility is very good for his spacing. You must be playing some pretty horrible Metaknights if you think otherwise.

 

[Levitas]

WOAH, this got some activity. I guess I'll respond to some stuff if I feel the need in a bit.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Sonic has bad aerial mobility?

Sonic has an AT called Spinshotting, which lets him move in an arc in the air at max air speed right from the start, until landing.

Obviously for up close spacing this isn't that good, as his bad acceleration is still present. He has fair and bair, which disjoints on both and a very big disjoint on the latter which helps with spacing in the air.

Ugh.

 

[Ref]

WOAH, this got some activity. I guess I'll respond to some stuff if I feel the need in a bit.

Too much activity, this has sort of become the insult Ness as a character thread, or the "I don't really play Ness or know this match up, but I'm just going to post here and try to get my points across."

 

[A2ZOMG]

Sonic has bad aerial mobility?

Sonic has an AT called Spinshotting, which lets him move in an arc in the air at max air speed right from the start, until landing.

Obviously for up close spacing this isn't that good, as his bad acceleration is still present. He has fair and bair, which disjoints on both and a very big disjoint on the latter which helps with spacing in the air.

Ugh.

WITHOUT specials. I wasn't accounting for mobility with specials. WITH specials he has fancy tricks. My point is however Metaknight's INHERENT aerial mobility is good despite low top speed as it helps him a lot for spacing.

Either way, I bet most Metaknight's don't even have experience in this matchup. =/

 

[Gaussis]

Wow, you don't understand spacing at all.

It means something if you can exploit it. You won't be able to space perfectly 100% of the time.

Wow, extremely bad logic. Metaknight has MANY more safe things he can do that can kill than Ness. Your logic of safe being predictable doesn't mean anything. And no, Metaknight's safe things DO have a high reward. This is why he's god tier. Metaknight's safe tilts and safe aerials all rack up damage fast and get him around diminishing returns. His D-smash is a great KO move and great for getting people offstage since it hits outwards so low. His F-smash kills approaches. His Up-B is amazing out of shield and gimps people.

First I did say it was excusable (MK has safe/dangerous moves). However, you missed the point of safety. It doesn't lead to other things. A character with the greatest number of safe options is ideal, but this is not to forget that not every safe option will work on an opponent. MK's aerials that can be deemed safe are dair and fair/bair. Even if Ness outranges or matches them, Ness can't punish hard enough. Dtilt isn't safe either. A shielding Ness will be able to nair OOS.

That is G&W spacing very badly. At the optimal range, G&W's B-air shuts down all of your aerials.

Well, this isn't true for two reasons. One, optimal spacing is really only theory. It is very possible that Ness can space against bair with his own aerials. G&W has the better range, but it only gives safety and nothing much more due to Ness's competing range. Two, Ness has considerable frame advantage against bair, which makes Ness much more capable of hitting G&W before he hits Ness. Range alone doesn't account for anything.

G&W relies on spacing more than Ness. Ness camps, and it's harder to stop on wifi. clinton recovers with PK thunder very consistently and tries to do mindgames with it, which I punish out of shield very consistently.

It really doesn't matter. Many people have to play AGAINST lag which sometimes restricts even the most basic options. PKT is manueverable but not to the best extent. There are times when it is very inconsistent.

You're wrong, Metaknight's air mobility is very good for his spacing. You must be playing some pretty horrible Metaknights if you think otherwise.

Really now? If MK SH fair/bairs a shield, he will get punished for it. His air mobility is too poor to let him retreat fast enough. Also, MK's false airspeed comes in the form of Shuttle Loop, Glide, and using his jumps. MK players don't chase in any other way in the air.

Sonic has bad aerial mobility?

Sonic has an AT called Spinshotting, which lets him move in an arc in the air at max air speed right from the start, until landing.

Obviously for up close spacing this isn't that good, as his bad acceleration is still present. He has fair and bair, which disjoints on both and a very big disjoint on the latter which helps with spacing in the air.

Ugh.

Yeah, I mentioned without specials, because both have their movements altered by them.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ahh, sorry I didn't see that bit bro D;

Ehh, bad aerial mobility and really small jumps MK can deal with because of his stupid hitboxes.

Nice old sig A2ZOMG xD

 

[Uffe]

Too much activity, this has sort of become the insult Ness as a character thread, or the "I don't really play Ness or know this match up, but I'm just going to post here and try to get my points across."

I love you. Plus we're now discussing aerial mobility for not only Ness and MK, but G&W and Sonic as well.

Also, anybody who says G&W has a harder time on wifi than Ness just proves that they never used Ness on wifi.

 

[Gaussis]

I predict Ganon will get in this here brawl as well :O.

 

[Dekar173]

Ref, instead of just saying "he doesn't play Ness" how about responses highlighting how exactly Ness is supposed to go about punishing a well spaced bair from G&W.

A2 seems to be defecating in your mouth in this debate.

As for statements saying I don't play Ness, I've placed higher as Ness in higher turnout tourneys than most of you with an exception for maybe two or three. How do I not play Ness?

 

[Levitas]

1. Sonic does have poor aerial mobility.

2. In the same situations, Marth generally has a faster and safer way to recover, or they are both screwed anyway. That is the essence of being harder to edgeguard.

3. Dekar, if you read this, a lot of the points you made are valid. That does not give you grounds to insult people. That just makes you arrogant and unliked.

4. WHO THE HELL argues that unsafe is better than safe? I saw stuff getting thrown around a moment ago like "safe options that are used often can get predictable" The POINT of a safe option is that you can do that and get away with it. And the fact that it can get predictable doesn't make an unsafe option any better in that situation.

5. MK has good mobility, especially when you you want to edgeguard. Ness has limits in his mobility as far as offstage goes (mostly in terms of restrictions in how long he can move and how many independant motions he can make)

6. Wifi doesn't matter. Nobody thinks it does.

7. Ness fair can beat G&W bair. it doesn't always, and it does sometimes. spacing dependent.

8. MK can fair in front of a shield safely. He can tap a shield w/ fair safely against a wide array of characters. Including ness.

9. MK generally waits for people to get somewhat close to the edge rather than chase them out far. Therefore, his airspeed is suited for this. Glide is never used to chase an opponent.


EDIT: G&W can do a well spaced bair into ness's shield and get punished by the ness forcing a bad spacing next time. Remember, it takes 2 to space.

 

[Ref]

Ref, instead of just saying "he doesn't play Ness" how about responses highlighting how exactly Ness is supposed to go about punishing a well spaced bair from G&W.

A2 seems to be defecating in your mouth in this debate.

The point of me saying he doesn't play Ness is to show that he doesn't have the experience with the character to make those claims.

 

[Masky]

Ref, instead of just saying "he doesn't play Ness" how about responses highlighting how exactly Ness is supposed to go about punishing a well spaced bair from G&W.

A2 seems to be defecating in your mouth in this debate.

As for statements saying I don't play Ness, I've placed higher as Ness in higher turnout tourneys than most of you with an exception for maybe two or three. How do I not play Ness?

Dekar back up what you said about MK having better options OOS than Ness against long ranged attacks like ZS's side-b or stop posting

 

[Dekar173]

The point of me saying he doesn't play Ness is to show that he doesn't have the experience with the character to make those claims.

Then REFUTE the claims with evidence instead of just saying "Nuh uh you don't play Ness!!!"

As for oos, Ness has fair or nair, or
after perfect shielding he can dash grab, usmash (or dsmash depending on direction) or even pivot dash grab and MAYBE dair (against laggy attacks like ZSS' fB).

MK can dtilt, dtilt > buffered ftilt, dash grab, fair, dair, or
after perfect shielding dashing shuttle loop, dash usmash, dsmash, fsmash.

Both have decent options, but MK's follow-up while on the offensive is MUCH more effective than Ness'

 

[Levitas]

Then REFUTE the claims with evidence instead of just saying "Nuh uh you don't play Ness!!!"

By this logic, I can say the moon is an illusion, prove me wrong. Point being, people need to support their points in both their claims and when they're refuting something. The burden of proof shouldn't always be on one side.

 

[Masky]

**** Levitas I wish I could be in the same picture as Anther

 

[Gaussis]

4. WHO THE HELL argues that unsafe is better than safe? I saw stuff getting thrown around a moment ago like "safe options that are used often can get predictable" The POINT of a safe option is that you can do that and get away with it. And the fact that it can get predictable doesn't make an unsafe option any better in that situation.

I wasn't arguing about safe being inferior to unsafe. I was arguing that having safety gives you a guarantee (if not partial) that you won't be punished. However, to say a move is safe 100% of the time is ridiculous, as predictability becomes a factor.

Sure it doesn't make more unsafe moves better, but that's the downside to safe moves.

8. MK can fair in front of a shield safely. He can tap a shield w/ fair safely against a wide array of characters. Including ness.

He can? I was sure that he could get punished by characters with fast/long ranged attacks as he lands.

 

[Dekar173]

3. Dekar, if you read this, a lot of the points you made are valid. That does not give you grounds to insult people. That just makes you arrogant and unliked.

People sat here and flamed my opinions because I haven't frequented these boards in months, not because of what I was saying but simply because they didn't recognize my name any more. That's why I felt it necessary to insult them.

Why do they even come to these boards if they're not even going to read and assess what other people have to say?