Why Ness does better against MK than marth does

[Ref]

So you're claiming that one of Ness's bigger advantages in dealing with metaknight over marth is his recover? really?

First off, Marth's recovery is nice and fast, something that Ness can't really emulate.

Secondly, Marth gets more than one chance sometimes.

Ness's fair doesn't do much more than marth's fair here, and that's only because it is attached to a larger second jump in this case.

Ness doesn't have an invincible startup that can hit MK out of fair/nair, and does even more if the MK does dumb stuff.

most hits knock up and back, so DI plus drifting negates most of Marth's concerns about horizontal recovery, with some exceptions. Like a clean hit MK dair. The kind where MK could chase Ness out sideways and hit him again to make the fact that Ness can recover horizontally marginally better completely moot.

Okay let me start addressing every point here...

Ness' recovery is fast.... Double jumps are fast. PKT2 travels fast but takes start up time.

Ness' F air has more range than Marth's F air. So yeah just F air hit with the last hit then PKT2 if you lost that Double jump.

Invincibility in the start up? Ness can technically defend with the tail... If an Mk is out to edge guard Invincibility won't help you on an up b, Only if you are near an edge to grab if not you may hit then just fall down to your doom...

Ness gets more than 1 chance with good DI sometimes.... He'll have to use PKT2 but he can just DI...


Err Ness can DI down airs too and float, saying MK will chase, he'd also chase Marth as well... Anyway if you want to be super cool you can also Smash DI the D air up and in. I've done it not to be gimped before. Now if you want to bring up that Marth floats better then fine. We can make that up with better (a lot better) horizontal recovery on our up B... Mk runs out of jumps eventually...

 

[xoxokev]

saying MK will chase, he'd also chase Marth as well...

This. Basically, most of the things, if not all of the things, that MK can do to Ness, he can do to Marth as well. I guess it depends on what Ness/Marth do in reaction to what MK will do to them. I don't really know where I'm going with this... but I think all in all, whether or not Ness or Marth have a better chance against MK than the other, relies upon a combination of luck and skill... I don't know if there is any clear cut way to prove which of the characters is at a lesser disadvantage, except by naming all of the disadvantages of each character, which will then result in some sort of comeback by the debater for that character... this may turn into an endless dispute

EDIT: But if you two are up for it (Ref and Levitas), by all means, feel free to debate away

 

[thesage]

You can also smash di the hits of mk's fair to let it hit you upwards lol. If I'm being edgeguarded by MK I consider two things:

Do I still have my dj?

Do I need to use pkt to recover to the stage?

If I still have my dj and I don't need pkt to recover I just dj and airdodge to the stage. If you have problems sweetspotting just do a pkt and hit something with it and you should grab the ledge.

If I still have my dj and I need to use pkt, I dj away from the mk while charging a dair so that when I'm above mk, I do a dair. The only options he has are using uair or upb, both of which trades hits with Ness dair. You can di MK's up b so it sends you at an almost perfectly vertical trajectory. MK is usually screwed if he gets hit by the dair though.

If I don't have my dj then I wait for him to come to me by psi magnet stalling (I just do it once usually) then airdodge his attack and up-b. Ness is pretty screwed in this situation if he doesn't know how to smash di or mk uses his dair.

Mk can just go out and dair spam Marth to edgeguard. Against Ness he should probably wait for Ness to recover and punish what he does at the ledge (which is much easier for mk to do than actually edgeguard Ness). This is the most effective way to edgeguard Ness by almost every character usually (**** you ROB).

An interesting property of mk is that his shield SUCKS. Marth's side b and neutral b as well as Ness' fair **** it. If spaced correctly, Ness' fair can shieldstab Mk's shield easily. Marth has to whittle it down for some time before he can do that.

 

[Levitas]

This is about as big as I'm gonna allow my walls to get, I don't particularly like long posts in debates.

Ness' recovery is fast.... Double jumps are fast. PKT2 travels fast but takes start up time.

Ness's PKT2 is slow. It has a long charge time, especially when compared to marth's up b. Therefore, marth's recovery is faster. I don't know why you're saying that Ness's is fast under the following true statements:
1. it's slower than marth's
2. having a fast recovery is most often an advantage (yes in this case, Ness's slower recovery does not have the same properties as MK's side b)
C. Therefore in terms of speed at LEAST, Marth's recovery is superior.

If you concede that marth's recovery is faster, then there's no point in saying that Ness's is fast, unless it's on the same magnitude of fast, which it clearly is not. Marth's has a 4 frame invincible startup. Ness's has a long period of "please hit me MK" animation.

Ness' F air has more range than Marth's F air. So yeah just F air hit with the last hit then PKT2 if you lost that Double jump.

False. Ness's fair is more disjoint and has different clash properties would be a true statement, but relying on a hit with the last hit of the fair as your ONLY way of sending MK far enough away to be able to have time to PKT2 isn't a way to get back to the stage often. You're better off trying to evade MK entirely.

Invincibility in the start up? Ness can technically defend with the tail... If an Mk is out to edge guard Invincibility won't help you on an up b, Only if you are near an edge to grab if not you may hit then just fall down to your doom...

Strictly speaking, an invincible for the first 4 frames hits on the fifth recovers quickly move is MUCH better defensively than a recovery that gains it's first hitbox on frame 19 (that kills YOU if you hit with it), gains a defensive tail after that, though the tail won't do anything against MK unless you loop it towards the stage (which takes more time) until you finally hit yourself and START to move.

Ness's recovery is MUCH easier to edgeguard once his DJ is negated.

Ness gets more than 1 chance with good DI sometimes.... He'll have to use PKT2 but he can just DI...

The point was he has to use PKT2 without his DJ, and in the meantime, MK is really close by to it you, whether it's out of the sourspot PKT2 or out of the startup, both of which are pretty easy to do in this case.

Err Ness can DI down airs too and float, saying MK will chase, he'd also chase Marth as well... Anyway if you want to be super cool you can also Smash DI the D air up and in. I've done it not to be gimped before. Now if you want to bring up that Marth floats better then fine. We can make that up with better (a lot better) horizontal recovery on our up B... Mk runs out of jumps eventually...

Yes, my point is that in any case that Ness would benefit from a more horizontal recovery, both Ness and marth die, so it's not an advantage that Ness can recover more horizontally.

SDIing a non multi hit move won't really net you anything.

your up B isn't so long that and you aren't so floaty that MK will run out of jumps edgeguarding you from a Dair.

This. Basically, most of the things, if not all of the things, that MK can do to Ness, he can do to Marth as well. I guess it depends on what Ness/Marth do in reaction to what MK will do to them. I don't really know where I'm going with this... but I think all in all, whether or not Ness or Marth have a better chance against MK than the other, relies upon a combination of luck and skill... I don't know if there is any clear cut way to prove which of the characters is at a lesser disadvantage, except by naming all of the disadvantages of each character, which will then result in some sort of comeback by the debater for that character... this may turn into an endless dispute

EDIT: But if you two are up for it (Ref and Levitas), by all means, feel free to debate away

This is not an endless dispute. This is also quite quantifiable. In most cases, I get to say "anything ness can do marth can do better", though there are a few cases where I can't.

Also, you missed the point on your quote too. Marth dies in that case due to a lack of a horizontal recovery. Ness dies because MK can edgeguard him. Therefore, Ness being able to recover horizontally doesn't really help here.


I'll get to your post later, sage.

 

[xoxokev]

I was just agreeing with what Ref said about how MK can chase Marth as well as Ness, I didn't think there was need to further explain it. Anyway, the real point of my prior post was this:

whether or not Ness or Marth have a better chance against MK than the other, relies upon a combination of luck and skill...

 

[Levitas]

Given that there is a probability associated with the opponent correctly predicting your moves and that this is a game of skill, that statement could be extended to envelop any comparison between anything in the game.

 

[Gaussis]

Strictly speaking, an invincible for the first 4 frames hits on the fifth recovers quickly move is MUCH better defensively than a recovery that gains it's first hitbox on frame 19 (that kills YOU if you hit with it), gains a defensive tail after that, though the tail won't do anything against MK unless you loop it towards the stage (which takes more time) until you finally hit yourself and START to move.

Eh, DS doesn't really help much against MK. The two main reasons for it are that Marth gets very predictable in having to recover due to him recovering in the same spot generally, and it isn't much use after the invincibility wears off. Ness's on the other hand can recover from virtually anywhere and has defensive properties. The drawback is that you would need to have more space than Marth. Still, it isn't like he only has PKT to recover with. Having a large DJ makes his recovery much more flexible than Marth's against MK because Ness can use the DJ to set up PKT2, while Marth doesn't have much to help him against MK (DB isn't too helpful and he needs to preserve his DJ for as long as possible).

Also, you forget one factor in Brawl that Ness can use better than Marth. The footstool. Since Ness's DJ goes up very high, he can use it to set up one. It might not be much since it is opponent-dependent, but it is an option that Ness can use under the right circumstances.

SDIing a non multi hit move won't really net you anything.

Actually it sort of does. MK's dair has poor vertical knockback and sends you more horizontally. With that given, Ness has a better chance at recovering than Marth if hit with a dair and using SDI against it due to him being floatier.

your up B isn't so long that and you aren't so floaty that MK will run out of jumps edgeguarding you from a Dair.

Neither is Marth's. However fast his recovery may be, it still needs to be in a certain area so he can avoid any punishment (and it is essential that he does because he would go back to being edgeguarded again).


I would also like to say that Marth can be knocked out of his recovery by MK's nair due to its duration. The problem with that it the positioning MK would have to do to pull it off. However, since MK is already out edgeguarding Marth when this occurs, it becomes a moot point.

 

[thesage]

Can we just agree that both recoveries are ***** equally but differently?

Ness has decent shieldstabbing against MK. Same with Marth. I think Ness is a little better since he doesn't have to whittle mk's shield down so much. Marth is way better at shield stabbing with his d-tilt, nb, and fb.

Mk has a grab release d-smash on Ness I believe, doesn't really matter since his d-smash is fast anyways. If you could've gotten grabbed, you probably could've been d-smashed. =/

Ness has an easier time killing mk, I think. All of Marth's moves are outranged by him, while Ness has a grab. Marth might be able to grab release fair MK, but I have no clue if that works.

If the project omega thing is true, Ness can kill mk at low percents. Again, I have no clue about this.

Ness can deal with the tornado easier than Marth can. That's from what I've seen though >_>; Once in the tornado Marth can get out with ds, but Ness has an easier time preventing himself getting in it with fair.

You have to take into fact that I'm talking about people that know how to properly di MK's moves. Most people don't even know to do this, much less Ness mains. I really wish I could di out of Rob's d-smash consistently. That would make the matchup for me lol.

I'm really interested in your counterarguments Levitas. I personally believe Marth has a 55-45 matchup iwith mk, but I'll argue this point for now.

 

[Zankoku]

Wait, Marth has trouble with Tornado? His options consist of the following:
Grounded
Counter
tipper fsmash
trade with Dancing Blade
Dolphin Slash
Shieldbreaker (far away)

Aerial
Counter
trade with Dancing Blade
Dolphin Slash (from side)
dair (from above)

Marth has to screw up in a significant way, or airdodge directly into a Tornado, in order to actually get hit by one.

All of Marth's moves are not outranged by Meta Knight, though there is less margin of error because Marth will lean forward on many of his attacks, causing whiffs to become that much more punishable.

 

[xoxokev]

Do you think tornado is the main reason why MK has advantage?

 

[Zankoku]

I fail to see the relevance of that question, but no, not really.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

Unless you main marth it's really hard for you to make this conclusion IMO. Personally I think Marth has an easier time, its just that MK mains know the Marth matchup way more than they know the Ness matchup.

 

[Green-Machine]

Ness has ranged and pk fire can trap mk marth is forced to take close range against mk and mk can just punish you

 

[xoxokev]

I fail to see the relevance of that question, but no, not really.

I asked that question because your previous post was mainly focused on how you believe Marth can easily counter MK's tornado

 

[Green-Machine]

Marth gets torn apart by mks tornado, but if he gets tossed out Mk cant get another it on him before hes out of the tornado and countered, because he is a lightweight he generally gets tossed out but sometimes Mk uses tornade too fast for him to counterattack so idk. lol

 

[Dekar173]

Anyone sitting here saying Ness is LESS gimpable than Marth has got to be kidding themselves.

Jump into PKT1

Recovery over, and I haven't risked my own death.

Jump into Marth and even attempt edgeguarding DRAGONPUNCH SPIKE OH NO I BETTER TECH.



If you only have experience online, you have no experience at all. People may do wonderfully online where there's literally no buffer system (what makes Brawl speed up from it's sluggish gameplay) but the instant they go to a real tournament they get smacked down and 3-stocked.

But this isn't a debate about online, this is about someone thinking Ness is a better match-up against MK than Marth, which is not true.

Anything MK can do to Marth, he can do to Ness, except more mindlessly and with less chance of being punished.

"But Ness can spike him once in a bluemoon!" "But he's scared of PKT2!!!" "But Ness can PKF him!!!"

Airdodge. Avoid PKT2 with vastly superior air mobility. POWERSHIELD, or DI UP AND OUT OF PKFIRE.

Honestly, it's a nobrainer. Marth > Ness against MK. I don't WANT it to be that way, but that's how it is. Quit lying to yourselves and just go start practicing so your own Ness doesn't get defecated upon by some dickrider Metaknight player.

Sidenote: Tornado isn't the fix all for any MK player. It's the fix all for bad MK players.

 

[Green-Machine]

Yes its true ness has a crap recovery against any player who isnt scared to jump off stage but that doesnt mean marth is better against MK ness can stay back, pk cross, and then use his attacks with disjointed hitboxes to make MK nervous.. Marth and MK would be a speed battle that would probably end with MK wining because his drill rush and tornado will make Marth scared to get inside and fight where he needs to be... if you think before with ness you can anticipate wat an MK would do... drill rush glide and tornado, once you know what he is going to do then you can counter and make him pay for it

 

[Gaussis]

Stuff.

You obviously don't know anything about the characters being discussed. I suggest you read the previous posts if you really want to say something.

 

[Green-Machine]

lol that was a while ago but ok

 

[ColinJF]

My favourite part of Dekar's post is the claim that Meta Knight has "vastly superior air mobility". Clearly somebody has never seen Meta Knight move in the air despite Brawl being out for a year.

 

[Dekar173]

I don't know anything about the characters being discussed? I understand well enough that when someone JUMPS INTO the head of Ness' PKT1, he loses it and becomes gimped, while the opponent is launched upward (regardless of DI). 8% for a kill? I'll take that trade any day. What makes MK capable of jumping into the PKT1, you say? Well, he doesn't have to jump above Ness in order to intercept it, in fact, more successful (read: better) players will actually jump BENEATH Ness so there is no chance of being PKT2'd, and no chance of Ness recovering. This coupled with the fact that MK has GREAT aerial mobility makes it extremely dangerous for Ness to recover successfully against a good MK player.

"But Dekar!!! I had my sister try to gimp me with Metaknight, and I recovered two times out of three!!!"

Holy **** join date of yesterday, silence child.

Marth on the other hand has an instant upB recovery (which sweetspots, and CAN stagespike), shieldbreaker which will assist in horizontal recovery (then again we're most likely discussing recovering from below the stage, correct?) as well as fairs which will force MK to be wary while at the same time NOT keep Marth from recovering. His flaws while recovering are the distance covered (about 1/2 block less than Ness' if PKT2 were angled the same as Marth's upB) as well as the landing lag if the edge is not sweetspotted (VERY punishable, especially by MK's upB).



I can't help but ask, how many of you have actually faced MK in a tourney environment with Ness?

I feel comfortable with Ness against ANY character aside from MK, simply for his gimping capabilities.



What with the way most of you are debating Ness' godliness in here, you'd think these were the Melee Ness boards. Sweet Jesus.



Protip: mobility doesn't just mean horizontal movement, can Ness efficiently float in the air, waiting for the chance to use an aerial? Now, how about MK with his multiple hops? Alrighty then, I was just checking.

 

[ColinJF]

I bet you've been looking for a place to vent about Meta Knight for weeks.

Might I recommend Brawl Tactical?

 

[Dekar173]

Are you gonna debate against my points or just sit there and make poor attempts at ridiculing me? No but seriously do go on and explain why my reasoning is faulty, as opposed to steering away from the topic at hand. Please I beg of you. Or do you see a "wall of text" and say "tl;dr I've got the ADD!"

Aside from downs syndrome Mcgee anybody else have any light to shed on this?

 

[ColinJF]

The topics in your posts were already discussed in the thread before you posted.

 

[Uffe]

I don't know anything about the characters being discussed? I understand well enough that when someone JUMPS INTO the head of Ness' PKT1, he loses it and becomes gimped, while the opponent is launched upward (regardless of DI). 8% for a kill? I'll take that trade any day. What makes MK capable of jumping into the PKT1, you say? Well, he doesn't have to jump above Ness in order to intercept it, in fact, more successful (read: better) players will actually jump BENEATH Ness so there is no chance of being PKT2'd, and no chance of Ness recovering. This coupled with the fact that MK has GREAT aerial mobility makes it extremely dangerous for Ness to recover successfully against a good MK player.

You can jump on the head of PKT, but really, who's actually going to bother with that? If anything, that's mostly done by mistake. And if they were trying to gimp Ness, the chances of that actually happening isn't very high. I've killed my opponents with PKT2 returning to the stage more than they've actually gimped my PKT. Hell, that Ghost Platform on Yoshi's Island (Brawl) does a better job of gimping me, as well as saving me. And Ness doesn't exactly have to use his PKT right away. If he has a second jump, he'll use it first.

Also, going under Ness when using PKT, that's just stupid. By that time, he'll probably have PKT set up into a PKT2, launching his opponent back towards the stage or into the wall, causing them to fall to their oblivion. Trust me, I've killed so many opponents unintentionally just because they tried to gimp me. I'm not saying Ness' recover is superb, but it's not garbage, either.

Knocking both Ness and Marth far off and below the stage, you can't say either one would have an easier time returning. Marth's Dancing Blade isn't exactly the best thing to use when returning. Especially below stage level. If MK wanted to, all he'd have to do is just use his Dimensional Cape on the edge and he could easily block off both characters return.

"But Dekar!!! I had my sister try to gimp me with Metaknight, and I recovered two times out of three!!!"

Holy **** join date of yesterday, silence child.

Irrelevant.

Marth on the other hand has an instant upB recovery (which sweetspots, and CAN stagespike), shieldbreaker which will assist in horizontal recovery (then again we're most likely discussing recovering from below the stage, correct?) as well as fairs which will force MK to be wary while at the same time NOT keep Marth from recovering. His flaws while recovering are the distance covered (about 1/2 block less than Ness' if PKT2 were angled the same as Marth's upB) as well as the landing lag if the edge is not sweetspotted (VERY punishable, especially by MK's upB).

Again, Marth's recovery is no better than Ness'. Knocked out far enough, like Ness, it's going to be hard for either character to actually make it. Like I stated before, if MK wanted to, he can just edge hog with his down B.

I can't help but ask, how many of you have actually faced MK in a tourney environment with Ness?

I feel comfortable with Ness against ANY character aside from MK, simply for his gimping capabilities.

What with the way most of you are debating Ness' godliness in here, you'd think these were the Melee Ness boards. Sweet Jesus.

I never been to a tournament. Also, if I were to tell you that I was, you would probably ask if it were a "good" MK. And no, MK isn't easy, obviously, but he's not impossible, either.

Protip: mobility doesn't just mean horizontal movement, can Ness efficiently float in the air, waiting for the chance to use an aerial? Now, how about MK with his multiple hops? Alrighty then, I was just checking.

Of course not. Why bother asking a question you already know the answer to? Oh yeah. Because you feel the need to be correct.

 

[PMKNG]

I've played plenty of metaknights with BOTH marth and ness, and It definitely seems easier with ness albeit his range and with proper spacing. It might just be since I'm more adapt to ness in brawl vs marth in melee, but that's how I feel about the match up.

As far as gimping goes, Ive never been gimped by a metaknight by jumping into my pkt, plenty of times with DDD but never metaknight. Metaknights I have played will typically do an fair or dair to try to gimp if possible.
The same can be done to marth just as easily as ness. The only advantage I see ness possibly having on marth in recovering against metaknight is his S shaped double jump.

 

[Green-Machine]

I've played plenty of metaknights with BOTH marth and ness, and It definitely seems easier with ness albeit his range and with proper spacing.

This is exactly how i feel too. Ness has an advantage because of his range but people dont think so.

 

[Dekar173]

This is a debate upon a match-up, and everyone said "they can both be gimped!!!" and assumed that simply because they can both be gimped, that they can both be gimped just as easily as the other.

This is NOT true. Ness' recovery, despite having more distance than Marth's, is much more gimpable.

A MK with the same match-up experience against Ness as against Marth will undoubtedly be able to gimp the Ness with much more ease than the Marth, simply due to the fact that Marth has a FASTER recovery than Ness does.

If Marth is sent below the stage, he can instantly upB and sweetspot the ledge.

Now, if Ness were to be sent below the stage, YES his recovery may cover more distance, BUT how slow is it? He doesn't press upB and voila, he's recovering. No. The PKT1 must be used to launch Ness up towards the stage. This gives MK time to do exactly what he wants to do, be it timing a ledgehog, or jumping into the PKT1 (or PKT2, depending upon his % he can easily walltech for a risky gimp).

Uffe, considering you've never attended an actual tournament, it's understandable that you'd just assume someone jumping into Ness' recovery is "accidental" BUT this is one of the BEST ways to actually gimp Ness, you get hit in exchange for one of Ness' stocks. Please go to a tournament and see how many times it happens to you before making any worthless assumptions, thanks :D



Why does ANY of this matter? Because Marth is one EXTREMELY difficult character to ledgeguard, as opposed to Ness who has 2 actual options (not every aerial is feasible, kids).
Assuming both still have their DJ, what are their options?

Marth
fair (most "bang for your buck" with this positioning, fastest)
uair (if MK approaches from above)
nair (more frames on hitbox than the other two)
dancing blade (First slash stalls in air slightly, greatly nerfed from Melee)
upB (invincibility frames up until hitbox, instant, sweetspots ledge, can ledge spike)
DJ + airdodge (if MK is being predictable)

Ness
fair (fast aerial with greatest range, can be SDI'd out of)
nair (fastest aerial, but lacks range)
uair (very small range in comparison to MK's approach, though a deceitful hitbox)
dair (mega spike with HUGE setup time, this attack is NOT going to land against a good MK, or good anything for that matter)
downB (stall/slight amount of horizontal)
DJ + airdodge (if close enough to the ledge)
upB (very slow, very powerful, loses distance if it connects on the first few frames, loses entirely if PKT1 is absorbed)


Now let's only use the best options:

Marth- fair approach, uair approach (depending on positioning, 8 o'clock or 6'oclock (with respect to the ledge)
Dancing blade
upB

Ness- fair approach, uair if you're feeling lucky (again, dependent upon positioning)
DJ airdodge to ledge/stage
upB (MUCH riskier than Marth's upB)



Who's options are better? MARTH

Now what if they each get intercepted, and lose their DJ?

Marth- upB (can be ledgehogged, but not ledgeguardable)

Ness- upB (can be both ledgehogged, AND ledgeguarded, but more distance than Marth)

I'll take a shorter but faster recovery that is more difficult to guard over a sluggish but longer/more powerful one any day of the week. In my opinion, Marth wins and is therefore less gimpable than Ness.

tl;dr read it you illiterate morons.

 

[Masky]

wow Ref thanks for making me look at the posts of Marth players... again

 

[Uffe]

Okay. I'm going to be honest with you. You're a ****. So it's quite obvious you're not worth the time. You act like I've never played Super Smash Bros. and you act like I've never fought any "good" MK's. Whatever that's supposed to me. You use it as loosely as the word mind games and ****. When you're done insulting people, that's when I'll come back and actually have a discussion with you. Until then, take your attitude elsewhere.

 

[Earthbound360]

dair (mega spike with HUGE setup time, this attack is NOT going to land against a good MK, or good anything for that matter)

Stopped reading at this.

tl;dr read it you illiterate morons.

Ok no I didnt, but yes, throwing out insults makes EVERYTHING better.

 

[Dekar173]

Yes, sitting here and complaining about me being an ******* is going to prove your point.

Uffe I take it you're what, 15? You'll come to hear much worse things than what I've posted, so good luck with real life kiddo.

Anyone going to argue against my points? Or not? If so expect more placings below top 8.

@EB360 so rising dair is going to land against an MK who's ledgeguarding you? Is that so? If you're talking about CPUs I can't debate against that but if you're talking about human players, it'll happen to them once in their smash career and then they'll find a way around it.

In other words, prove me wrong. Please. I don't WANT Ness to be low-tier, that's just what he is. Anyone who can't accept that fact is delusional/bad.

 

[silver0p]

lets all count down to 1!

ten

nine

eight

seven

six

five

four

three

two

one.

now we are all better

wow silver that really worked, you are a great friend and i have totally forgotten what we are fighting about. now we can all be friends again hip hip horray, Wot!

 

[Uffe]

Yes, sitting here and complaining about me being an ******* is going to prove your point.

I'll admit that Marth has it easier to return, but neither one have good recovery.

Uffe I take it you're what, 15? You'll come to hear much worse things than what I've posted, so good luck with real life kiddo.

Oh, it's not that. I just don't like being insulted and I'm sure you don't, either.

Anyone going to argue against my points? Or not? If so expect more placings below top 8.

Nope. You're correct. You can go home now.

 

[Gaussis]

I would like to point out some discrepancies with your last post.

Why does ANY of this matter? Because Marth is one EXTREMELY difficult character to ledgeguard, as opposed to Ness who has 2 actual options (not every aerial is feasible, kids). Against MK, both are vulnerable to gimping equally but each has their disadvantage.
Assuming both still have their DJ, what are their options?

Marth
fair (most "bang for your buck" with this positioning, fastest) OK
uair (if MK approaches from above)
nair (more frames on hitbox than the other two) But less range.
dancing blade (First slash stalls in air slightly, greatly nerfed from Melee) Stalling for Marth is baaaaad for MK. Definitely do not want MK to position himself.
upB (invincibility frames up until hitbox, instant, sweetspots ledge, can ledge spike) You have to remember that it only goes up so it can become predictable.
DJ + airdodge (if MK is being predictable) Eh, DS is better.

Ness
fair (fast aerial with greatest range, can be SDI'd out of) Too bad it has to be into Ness to SDI and since they're retreated, it really doesn't matter. It's a match for MK anyway.

nair (fastest aerial, but lacks range) Why would you need to fight MK if you're trying to recover?
uair (very small range in comparison to MK's approach, though a deceitful hitbox) This one is used to clear for a PKT recovery
dair (mega spike with HUGE setup time, this attack is NOT going to land against a good MK, or good anything for that matter) Wrong in so many ways, but recovering isn't the time to really use dair, you have other options.
downB (stall/slight amount of horizontal) He has better options most of the time.
DJ + airdodge (if close enough to the ledge) With good DI, you will end up close to the stage many times, but grabbing the edge is also doable if done below enough.
upB (very slow, very powerful, loses distance if it connects on the first few frames, loses entirely if PKT1 is absorbed) Being careful with this is the main thing to look out for. Though there are ways to limit this, it can be set up by using the double jump wisely.


Now let's only use the best options:

Marth- fair approach, uair approach (depending on positioning, 8 o'clock or 6'oclock (with respect to the ledge)
Dancing blade Stalling only works like the first few times.
upB

Ness- fair approach, uair if you're feeling lucky (again, dependent upon positioning)
DJ airdodge to ledge/stage
upB (MUCH riskier than Marth's upB) Again, you can set it up.



Who's options are better? MARTH Neither character's options are better than the other.

Now what if they each get intercepted, and lose their DJ? This is more probable on Marth since his DJ isn't as large as Ness's. For recovery's sake, both characters have their DJ.

Marth- upB (can be ledgehogged, but not ledgeguardable) Wrong. MK's nair will hit through or trade hits with it if MK sets up right above Marth.

Ness- upB (can be both ledgehogged, AND ledgeguarded, but more distance than Marth)

I'll take a shorter but faster recovery that is more difficult to guard over a sluggish but longer/more powerful one any day of the week. In my opinion, Marth wins and is therefore less gimpable than Ness.

tl;dr read it you illiterate morons.

Stop trying to prove things that aren't entirely true. Review the posts in the first few pages. This has already been covered.

 

[silver0p]

pssst read my postttt ^

 

[A2ZOMG]

Metaknight ***** Ness. Why would anyone think he does better than Marth against Ness? He runs all over Ness for the same reasons G&W does.

More range (yes, he outranges your F-air solidly on a number of attacks), has the advantage by far in edgeguarding, does better in the air in general, and has better options for KO moves, and stays safer in general.

 

[Dekar173]

I didn't say a Ness won't land dair on an opponent in the entire match, I stated that rising dair is WORTHLESS while trying to recover and being ledgeguarded.

Not only is Dair worthless while recovering, but nair is as well. uair with its tricky looking hitbox is the only feasible option aside from fair for recovery.

The ONLY thing I'm talking about is while recovering. Some poor saps thought Ness had it easier recovering against MK than Marth, and I had to burst their misled bubbles before they got 3stocked at a tourney, thinking recovering was a walk in the park. It is not.

And no, they aren't equally gimpable. Marth's options are better (despite this character being more homo than Sheik with a *****, he is the superior in this match-up, and for recovery purposes).

 

[Ref]

Metaknight ***** Ness. Why would anyone think he does better than Marth against Ness? He runs all over Ness for the same reasons G&W does.

More range (yes, he outranges your F-air solidly on a number of attacks), has the advantage by far in edgeguarding, does better in the air in general, and has better options for KO moves.

He doesn't out range Ness' F air. He does not do better in the air against Ness. Ness and Mk have particularly the same amount of KO options, while MK's are much safer, better? Not by much.

Ness has completely safe means of punishing most if not all MK's actions.

And The G&w match up vs. Ness is highly disputed so don't raise that point.

Also please know Ness as a character before deciding to post stuff that may not be right.

 

[Gaussis]

Metaknight ***** Ness. Why would anyone think he does better than Marth against Ness? He runs all over Ness for the same reasons G&W does.

More range (yes, he outranges your F-air solidly on a number of attacks), has the advantage by far in edgeguarding, does better in the air in general, and has better options for KO moves, and stays safer in general.

Eh?

Dair screws with MK's poor aerial mobility. It keeps him grounded. MK is no safer than Ness in the air than Ness is safer than MK on the ground. Also MK can't fan PKT very well.

I didn't say a Ness won't land dair on an opponent in the entire match, I stated that rising dair is WORTHLESS while trying to recover and being ledgeguarded.

Not only is Dair worthless while recovering, but nair is as well. uair with its tricky looking hitbox is the only feasible option aside from fair for recovery.

The ONLY thing I'm talking about is while recovering. Some poor saps thought Ness had it easier recovering against MK than Marth, and I had to burst their misled bubbles before they got 3stocked at a tourney, thinking recovering was a walk in the park. It is not.

And no, they aren't equally gimpable. Marth's options are better (despite this character being more homo than Sheik with a *****, he is the superior in this match-up, and for recovery purposes).

Personally, I believe Ness can set up better to counter gimping than Marth, but they both get stuck in dangerous situations if they aren't careful.