Why isn't there a comprehensive thread on pivoting?

[gravy]

Unless I don't know about it. Pivoting is hard, and doing it consistently is even harder. If I knew the exact science behind it, maybe I could get a bit better at it. If someone (Coughcoughmagus) can give me the info I need, I'll make the thread myself.

 

[oukd]

you dd turn around and do things asap
there's all the info you need

 

[Superspright]

Yeah. Definitely try DDing then turning around and doing stuff asap. That's basically how it works. You can also try going left very fast then right very fast, then stopping the control stick on the first frame back then do stuff.

 

[Bones0]

It's explained in the Advanced: How to Play videos.

It's also a really simple concept that doesn't need an entire thread. Input whatever you want on the pivot frame. It's just really hard to do, not to understand.

 

[Gea]

It isn't even that hard to do. It's difficult to do pivot jabs (some say pivot jabs are easier than tilts, but I disagree) or things out of long dashdances but it's not hard to do things like actual pivotgrabs or pivot usmash/fsmash.

But since no one in here really explained it well, I'll try to.

When you dashdance you can turn around with no penalty for doing so. As in during a dashdance you can choose either direction without slowing down, right? Well the game doesn't just have you go from dashing left to dashing right, there is a frame in between where the character is actually standing fully upright. Marth is one of the easiest characters to see this on (sheik is as well) because when he dashes, he leans forward and thus is much shorter. So either in real time or in training mode at a reduced speed, dashdance. You will see a frame where Marth is standing upright when switching directions.

During this frame of standing upright, any inputs are treated as if you are standing. This means grabs will come out as standing grabs, not dash grabs. Attacks will come out as a jab/tilt/smash, not a dash attack. Common underused but extremely useful pivots are retreat slightly fsmash on characters that lean back slightly then push forward (Ganon, Marth, Falco) to trade or beat bad aerials. I really like doing pivotgrabs to get behind someone's shield (so say, jab their shield, you dash behind them and pivot grab). You can imagine the use for pivot utilts on characters like marth/fox/falco, pivot ftilts on sheik, etc.

It isn't used that much because for loooots of situations a wd back is easier and more consistent.

 

[KirbyKaze]

To do pivot jabs I do

Dash (hit stick to the side) > dash other way (flick stick to the center and release) > input A

It takes some getting used to but the only real trick is the second step because you have to find how much force you need to just barely nudge the stick to register the change in direction (but not hold the input for very long). I know I said "to the center" but it's technically a teensy bit further than that. However, using the center as a frame of reference will make this easier than going the other way IMO.

This is easier with new controllers IMO. Largely because of the resistance on the stick. When you flick the stick in the opposite direction on a more 'lived in' stick, because the resistance has been worn down you have to base the flick distance around the center (and then go over a bit) to get a quicker return to neutral but on stiff ones you can actually flick to the side pretty leniently and then release because of the higher resistance.

I don't really think there's much use in empty pivot since pivoting into tilts is absurdly difficult, pivoting into jab doesn't have THAT MUCH utility as far as I can tell, and I'm not sure an empty pivot away from someone is functionally that much better than a WD back. Even when I could empty pivot reliably, I found the space negotiation with WD back and the momentum tricks with it generally much more useful for setting up actions. I also dislike the pause you have before being able to dash again. Pivoting into anything else (grab, smash, jump, etc) is easy enough and there's some tricks with it that can be worthwhile. You're just learing how to time the changing direction of the control stick with the other input (c-stick for smash, X or Y for jump & jump based options, etc).

 

[Bones0]

I agree WD back is probably more useful anyway, but being able to empty pivot would be a nice addition to WD back for more space. WD back -> Empty pivot is like a uber DD. But most of the time you're moving like that it's for a grab or to respace before you shield an aerial anyway.

 

[MaskedMarth]

I also dislike the pause you have before being able to dash again.

You can't dash again right away? I also remember reading somewhere that you can't jump immediately after pivot? Or am I just making all of this up.

 

[Signia]

You can't dash again right away? I also remember reading somewhere that you can't jump immediately after pivot? Or am I just making all of this up.

You can do anything you want out of a pivot. Your character is just in a standing position, with no momentum. It's done in place of wavedashes to move short distances very quickly and safely and is essential if you want to maximize your speed.

The easiest way to pivot is to just flick the stick in the opposite direction. It has to be done during the initial dash, since a pivot is just a DD that is cut short before the animation of the dash in the opposite direction begins, which starts right after you turn around. Since it's known that turning around takes 1 frame, I believe the stick has to return to neutral after the side input in 1 frame. Just flick the stick, it's not hard.

What is hard is doing moves quickly enough out of the pivot for it to be worth it. To be worth it, the input needs to be performed faster than the recovery lag of a wavedash (7 frames? 10 frames? I forget). It should be no problem to do pivot smashes, pivot SH aerials, and jabs using the flick method.

But it's pivot ftilting that's more difficult. Perfectly spaced ftilts and the ability to dash and do them with precision instead of having to do a riskier wavedash into them would be quite useful, but it's hard to do a fast tilt right after you've flicked the stick.

The other method allows guarantees the fastest possible pivot ftilts and fsmashes, but it requires some precision. As you know, forward is both need to do either move and it's used to do the pivot. But, forward must be released in one frame or else the dash begins! So, A has to be pressed at some specific time during the turnaround, probably on that one frame I'm thinking.

Pivoting into dtilits, utilts, or B moves (like shine) would be really powerful if someone were to master it. But it's hard

I agree WD back is probably more useful anyway, but being able to empty pivot would be a nice addition to WD back for more space. WD back -> Empty pivot is like a uber DD. But most of the time you're moving like that it's for a grab or to respace before you shield an aerial anyway.

You can't do things immediately out of wavedashes, but you can with pivots. WDing back is always more dangerous since it was a vulnerability period at the beginning, which is equal to the recovery of when you air dodge and hit the ground before it finishes (of course). However, the length of a dash-pivot is limited by your character's initial dash length. In order to pivot out of a full dash, you'd have to cancel it with crouch, dash again, and then pivot. So foxtrot-pivot

 

[Bones0]

Getting hit during WD lag is super rare. I think you're also exaggerating how vulnerable it is because you are still moving during the 10 frames that you are in landing lag. If you're going to get hit in the next 10 frames WDing back, dashing back doesn't have much on that (depending on the character, obviously).

The cases where you will get hit WDing back, you would probably get hit pivoting anyway. The problem with pivoting is you turn your back to the opponent. If they are coming at you too slow to hit you as you pivot, you pretty much always have enough time to WD as well. If they are coming at you fast enough to reach you, WDing back into shield means you can still shield grab, but pivoting back means you either have to pivot earlier than you want (your shield gets overshot), or you have to shield before the pivot (they land on your back). I think it's also worth noting that WDing basically forces downwards DI, whereas pivoting forces back DI. If Falcon's flying at you with a knee when you WD back, there's at least a chance you'll be able to tech, but dashing away always causes the worst DI imaginable.

DID YOU INTEND THIS AS A WAY OF BALANCING DASH BACK WITH APPROACHING, SAKURAI? WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN US?!

 

[Signia]

Getting hit out of a WD happens alllllll the time.

It's true that both will dodge the same attack at the same spacing. But with a pivot, you have to option of ending the motion early and shielding. Not so with a WD back, you'll just get hit. You can't shield until after the lag is over so the direction your facing doesn't matter in the small disadvantageous period I'm talking about. The crouch cancelling does help though.

Oh and I forgot there's also the jump startup you have to wait for when you do the WD.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

hey ryan come over

 

[Signia]

lol k gimme an hour

 

[Gea]

Bones, you could also say that you are most likely to not get kneed in the initial flick of the dash, but rather when the pivot is going to actually happen, meaning that you either have no DI or SDI against the attack if you do something like fsmash. Same thing with a WD and the attack. Isn't it just as likely your hands will be doing what you intended to out of the WD? It's sort of a moot point either way.

WD back is easier and has the benefit of being longer for lots of characters, so people default towards what simply works for them. There are times when pivots are strictly a better option, and there are times where wd is strictly a better option.

 

[Bones0]

Getting hit out of a WD happens alllllll the time.

It's true that both will dodge the same attack at the same spacing. But with a pivot, you have to option of ending the motion early and shielding. Not so with a WD back, you'll just get hit. You can't shield until after the lag is over so the direction your facing doesn't matter in the small disadvantageous period I'm talking about. The crouch cancelling does help though.

Oh and I forgot there's also the jump startup you have to wait for when you do the WD.

Getting hit out of WDs happens plenty, sure, but during the first 13-15 frames (including frames for jumpsquat)? I don't think so. Even with a quick 5-frame move, they'd have to pretty much be on top of you already in order to hit you as you slide away. If they don't hit you basically as they are moving and they aren't moving way faster than you, then you should be able to get your shield up most of the time. Dash-back isn't instantaneous either, and I think it actually extends the hurtbox of some characters towards their back (like Marth/Falcon, but I could be wrong about this).

Bones, you could also say that you are most likely to not get kneed in the initial flick of the dash, but rather when the pivot is going to actually happen, meaning that you either have no DI or SDI against the attack if you do something like fsmash. Same thing with a WD and the attack. Isn't it just as likely your hands will be doing what you intended to out of the WD? It's sort of a moot point either way.

WD back is easier and has the benefit of being longer for lots of characters, so people default towards what simply works for them. There are times when pivots are strictly a better option, and there are times where wd is strictly a better option.

Yeah, you're right, but I was just thinking of the general situation where Falcon is aiming a knee at point A. You WD/dash back away from that point, so you can grab him as he lands. Obviously if he is overshooting to compensate for WD/dash back then neither will end particularly well.

 

[Signia]

Getting hit out of WDs happens plenty, sure, but during the first 13-15 frames (including frames for jumpsquat)? I don't think so. Even with a quick 5-frame move, they'd have to pretty much be on top of you already in order to hit you as you slide away. If they don't hit you basically as they are moving and they aren't moving way faster than you, then you should be able to get your shield up most of the time. Dash-back isn't instantaneous either, and I think it actually extends the hurtbox of some characters towards their back (like Marth/Falcon, but I could be wrong about this).



Yeah, you're right, but I was just thinking of the general situation where Falcon is aiming a knee at point A. You WD/dash back away from that point, so you can grab him as he lands. Obviously if he is overshooting to compensate for WD/dash back then neither will end particularly well.

Ok we're not really talking about pivots anymore, but the merits of dashing back vs WD back? About the startup to wavedash -- there's a reason dashing back after safe aerials dodges shield grabs and WD doesn't. It gets you out a certain space quicker.

In your situation with Falcon overshooting a knee to catch backward movement, the one who dashes back has a chance to shield the attack on reaction to seeing Falcon's spacing. If you WD you're committed and you can't shield even you notice you need to shield as you're doing the inputs.

Sure, you'll be backturned if you have to shield before you pivot, but that's better than getting hit. Although, comparing the periods after the WD is no longer vulnerable, the WD back wins out since it results in a front-facing shield.

I'm not saying dashing and pivot should replace WD, though. Dashing away and pivoting will allow you to make punishes that weren't possible any other way, but WD is more versatile due to the fact that you can WD anytime, but you can't pivot easily unless you're in an initial dash. Having to pay attention to what state you're in all the time wastes a precious resource (your focus). WD is nice and simple as any backdash in a fighting game.

Most of the time people already only wavedash when they have to anyway, like when they need to get out of shield, move while maintaining face direction, do a tilt/smash, or even to move faster than their dash does.

I think Marths would benefit from being able to fsmash whenever they want to, instead of having to plan them out with a delayed fsmash from a WD. The other biggest use is pivot aerials, I don't know how people space up close without it.

 

[Strong Badam]

what would you like to know

 

[TheLake]

just sheild pivot ya turkey! :D

 

[Ryobeat]

What is the overall gain from pivoting? Its faster, right?

 

[Gea]

It allows you to do anything out of a dash as if you were standing.

 

[Knut]

practice pivoting. it *****.

 

[Lovage]

pivoting is a vastly overrated tactic but also a hidden gem

noobs learning the game put a huge emphasis on it, but the amount of people/characters who actually use it is pretty small

nothing against the technique itself, it's just with MOST characters, wavedashing accomplishes almost the same task

anyone with a good forward smash can have good applications for it, but besides that it's kind of an auxiliary technique

 

[NalsXR]

probably the best way to practice pivoting is to do shiek's dashdance (because its so fast) and try to shield directly out of it: If you let your thumb go too far on the control stick, you get a roll instead of a stationary shield, and when you transition to doing pivots into moves you're already used to snapping the stick into the correct position and leaving it there.

source: i pivot fsmash tipper errygame

 

[KirbyKaze]

pivoting is a vastly overrated tactic but also a hidden gem

noobs learning the game put a huge emphasis on it, but the amount of people/characters who actually use it is pretty small

nothing against the technique itself, it's just with MOST characters, wavedashing accomplishes almost the same task

anyone with a good forward smash can have good applications for it, but besides that it's kind of an auxiliary technique

I consider pivoting the movement equivalent of Fox's quadruple shine (and higher).

I think the best way to practice pivoting anything but empty pivot is to hit side, hit other side and around what feels like 6ish frames or whatever it is, you JC grab. If you did it right, you instantly turn around and grab. If you failed, you slide forward and grab. Another good method that has an easy check in it is to do the above with straight grab; if you did it correctly you turn around and grab (standing grab). If not, you dash grab. The important thing is to get a feel for when you press the next input in relation to changing directions. Once you know that, it's just building muscle memory with all the things you decide you want to pivot (be it smashes or what).

Pivoting smashes is really easy. In fact, pivoting anything that doesn't require a soft press is pretty easy. That said, I still haven't found a situation to use pivot d-smash with Peach or Sheik. And with the exception of Fox, I think pivot u-smash is pretty close to strictly worse than JC u-smash.

 

[gravy]

Actually the information from the comments pretty much gives me all I need. I was basically just trying to make sure that I understood it correctly. And as far as its application, it seems to me, although I can accept that I could be wrong, that it's a useful way for me to space my aerials and more (as falcon) very precisely, plus it allows me to be more threatening while dash dancing. It's also nice to be able to pivot grab consistently, it's useful for a ton of situations.

 

[Signia]

I consider pivoting the movement equivalent of Fox's quadruple shine (and higher).

I think the best way to practice pivoting anything but empty pivot is to hit side, hit other side and around what feels like 6ish frames or whatever it is, you JC grab. If you did it right, you instantly turn around and grab. If you failed, you slide forward and grab. Another good method that has an easy check in it is to do the above with straight grab; if you did it correctly you turn around and grab (standing grab). If not, you dash grab. The important thing is to get a feel for when you press the next input in relation to changing directions. Once you know that, it's just building muscle memory with all the things you decide you want to pivot (be it smashes or what).

I'm pretty sure there's practically no delay, especially not 6 frames. Just do an "empty pivot" by flicking the stick and then immediately do a move. It should just look like you stopped instantaneously and did something. No other explanation required.

Pivoting smashes is really easy. In fact, pivoting anything that doesn't require a soft press is pretty easy. That said, I still haven't found a situation to use pivot d-smash with Peach or Sheik. And with the exception of Fox, I think pivot u-smash is pretty close to strictly worse than JC u-smash.

If you land in front of them with an aerial or something you can dash through them and pivot to get to the back of their shield. Here, they can't shieldgrab anything you do, and WD grab punishes will be slightly slower, so the shield pressure is much better. Dash-behind-pivot into Peach/Sheik D-smash should work pretty well.

Pivot allows you to be faster than when WDing when you really need that extra speed in a short length of movement and it allows you to cancel ground momentum into anything instantly, though it has various pros and cons when compared with dash-shield or dash-JC'd stuff.

Also worth noting is the double-pivot, which allows you to pivot and maintain the direction you're facing. Basically you pivot twice, or do a really short DD and pivot back.

 

[Lovage]

Actually the information from the comments pretty much gives me all I need. I was basically just trying to make sure that I understood it correctly. And as far as its application, it seems to me, although I can accept that I could be wrong, that it's a useful way for me to space my aerials and more (as falcon) very precisely, plus it allows me to be more threatening while dash dancing. It's also nice to be able to pivot grab consistently, it's useful for a ton of situations.

pivot grabbing is amazing, although i would argue JC grabs (also called standing grabs) serve the exact same purpose

pivot "aerials" is a huge misconception, and the biggest reason ppl think pivoting is good when its mediocre.

 

[S l o X]

To do pivot jabs I do

Dash (hit stick to the side) > dash other way (flick stick to the center and release) > input A

wow pivoting is so easy now ty kk

pivot grabs are super good

 

[Hax]

pivoting is a vastly overrated tactic but also a hidden gem

noobs learning the game put a huge emphasis on it, but the amount of people/characters who actually use it is pretty small

nothing against the technique itself, it's just with MOST characters, wavedashing accomplishes almost the same task

anyone with a good forward smash can have good applications for it, but besides that it's kind of an auxiliary technique

lovage should be banned for this post

 

[Vkrm]

Would it be possible to dash dance on a platform and drop through it in the pivot frames?

 

[Lovage]

Would it be possible to dash dance on a platform and drop through it in the pivot frames?

don't think so, maybe, but even if it is, consider that a "1-frame link"

plus shield dropping serves more or less the same purpose, i would just recommend a new player practice that over any other useless tech like link's boomerang superjump glitch

 

[gravy]

I always jump cancel my grabs, but sometimes I want to do a pivot grab for another reason. It seems like there's definitely situations in which pivot grabbing is amazing, like if I want to cross up their shield or just start a grab combo going the different way. As far as pivot aerials, how is that a misconception? Maybe I'm saying it wrong, but I'm just talking about dashing, pivoting, jumping, and doing x aerial to quickly respace.

 

[McFlyy]

Someone should post a video showing how pivoting could be utilized and call it OoP (options out of Pivot). That would be extremely helpful.

Am I to understand from this thread that pivoting beats out wavedashing? Because I'm just getting into pivoting with C. Falcon and I can do it pretty consistently, but have yet to apply it consistently. It sounds pretty solid on paper. I can definately see why dashing away from your opponents approach into a pivot Ftilt would be useful (with some characters more than others), but you can do the same thing with a wavedash without your back ever facing the opponent. Also you can waveland. There's no such thing as pivot landing. That being said, I can definitely feel the startup lag from every WD I do, especially in those high pressure situations... and sometimes, depending on the character, I can literally fox trot out of trouble with a little more ease, if I have the room for it. If I combined that aspect of fox trotting out of trouble with a pivot punish, I could seriously step up my game :D

I want to start pivoting, but I hardly see pros doing it (or maybe it's that I do not perceive that the pros are doing it) and it discourages me from trying for myself. I guess I should just stop over analyzing this and just try it out for myself and see how it applies first hand.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

AustinRC is amazing and needs to post in this thread

 

[McFlyy]

Just started practicing my pivots after I read this thread lol

I'm not having too much difficulty doing my Ftilts out of the Pivot, but it is kinda hard to not do an Fsmash on accident, and sometimes I accidently angle my tilts down or upwards. Gotta work on that..

So theres Pivot Smashes, Tilts, jabs and grabs... aside from that I don't really know what else you can do from a pivot, or if there even is anything else you can do OoP. Can someone help me out and just list clearly every option out of a pivot? thanks!

 

[Gea]

Literally anything you can do while standing can be done out of a pivot. That's what a pivot is.

 

[McFlyy]

Nvm, I can see just from doing empty pivots, that you can literally do anything you could while standing. Even jump with no horizontal movement, in the middle of a Dash Dance. Pivoting is boss

 

[GhllieShdeKnife]

there is a guide on pivots!
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=6130701#post6130701
<3 Magus420