Why is everyone just jumping on the Lucina is better than Marth Band Wagon?

[Kaliam]

From my playing experience so far on the 3ds game, the only benefit i can see Lucina having is her being easier to play for lower skilled players, otherwise if your good at tippers, you can kill people at 70% with marth's F-smash. If someone can give me another view that would be awesome.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There really is no other view. You nailed it. She is easier to play and see results with.

 

[Severn]

That's all, she is just easier to play efficiently. Spacing is key for both characters, its just that Lucina doesn't get 'punished' for messing up spacing like Marth. Marth's tipper is a reward for good spacing. A player that is good at spacing with Marth and landing tipper will be better than Lucina. Lucina is easier to use but Marth has a higher skill cieling, making him the better the character in my opinion.

Also, some people are still saying that Lucina is faster that Marth. Which i'm sure isn't the case.

 

[Nasreth]

That's all, she is just easier to play efficiently. Spacing is key for both characters, its just that Lucina doesn't get 'punished' for messing up spacing like Marth. Marth's tipper is a reward for good spacing. A player that is good at spacing with Marth and landing tipper will be better than Lucina. Lucina is easier to use but Marth has a higher skill cieling, making him the better the character in my opinion.

Also, some people are still saying that Lucina is faster that Marth. Which i'm sure isn't the case.

People always fail to consider that landing a tippered f-smash at low percents is highly reliant on your opponent making an error, and a big one at that. It's not necessarily a skill difference between the two as it is a gamble, since Lucina will KO at lower percents with her f-smash except when it's tipped. At high skill levels if you have the opportunity to land your f-smash at any place on the blade for a KO you're going to see more consistent KOs from that player rather than lucky streaks. Marth can punish bad players for sure, but Lucina may be better when skill levels are equal on both ends.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tipper fsmash isnt the only kill move they have. Marth rewards spacing period. He also tends to be a bit safer on block due to tippers as well.

At high level though i dont think it will matter.

They should be edgeguarding

 

[Kaliam]

After doing some more testing around, I think I can say without a doubt that Lucina runs faster than Marth. It's actually pretty noticeable, she almost feels like she's more free to jump around, idk that's just what I got. I played against some level 9's of each and the both seem enjoy using Up-Throw --> Up-Special as a combo lol. It does work most of the time, at least in lower percents, but if you miss it's obviously really easy to punish. Also sometimes the hit-stun doesn't last long enough and they can just hit you back at low percents.

Someone should just make a side by side comparison video of everything from Dash Speed to F-Air, I'd do it but I only have one 3ds and no friends near by who I could test with.

 

[A2ZOMG]

After doing some more testing around, I think I can say without a doubt that Lucina runs faster than Marth. It's actually pretty noticeable, she almost feels like she's more free to jump around, idk that's just what I got.

Someone already compiled data on run speeds, and you can find it somewhere in the competitive discussion forums. Lucina, Marth, and Bowser all have the same run speed.

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

In terms of speed Marth and Lucina are exactly the same. But using Lucina is fun just for the hell of it.

 

[DaDavid]

Yeah i tried using Lucina because I was hearing she was better but honestly I'm good enough at getting tippers and spacing in general that playing with her feels unrewarding. Hits I know would've killed as Marth just don't with her and that's... unfortunate. Like some have said, it's likely because many of my matches have been against random For Glory people who maybe are more prone to making mistakes, but still, I have some friends I play with consistently who are at around my level and it just feels better to be Marth.

 

[Random4811]

Lucinas sword is slightly shorter based on my play as her, drawing from my experience, but the Marth moveset with the lack of everything that makes playing Marth viable is odd and honestly not as good. A good Lucina vs. a good Marth is going to lose. Also, I think her shield breaker takes longer to charge. Which is bad for what I like to call "death from above" [where you charge a shield breaker high enough in the sky to let it out before you hit the ground, propelling you forward into the foolish opponent who instinctively shields 9 times out of 10, leading to an easy stock.] Aside from that, she's alright. She has a lower skill ceiling as others have said, and she doesnt have to be spaced as peculiarly to win. But that means she has to rely more on pulling off smashes or fancy combos, neither of which are great options for her considering she is still donning Marth's moveset.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Shes better online due to latency, but both characters suck online anyway. Also her sword is not shorter. Marth is just taller than his descendant.

 

[Shaya]

Where do people hear all this crap?
Jeez :<

Lucina's jumps are the same as Marth guaranteed. Their walks are the same guaranteed. Their runs, dashes, weight, aerial mobility are the same guaranteed.
Their landing lag on aerials is the same guaranteed. I'm 95% certain all their aerials are the same as well. Everything else hasn't been personally tested yet but I'd bet that besides perhaps some specials, that all their normals are exactly the same in frame data.

 

[Kinslayer]

Shes better online due to latency, but both characters suck online anyway. Also her sword is not shorter. Marth is just taller than his descendant.

I disagree lucina is pretty darn good online she can just rush people down aggressively. Marth isn't as good as he can be because everything he does must be spaced. Since this isn't the case for Lulu she really doesn't have that issue

 

[Emblem Lord]

If you believe she can "rushdown" online then you are using her wrong or...actually thats the only explanation. She is not a character that can just swing at people. Spacing is still very important for her. Maybe even more so because she is not as safe on block as marth is.

 

[Xyro77]

I'm deeply disappointed in both of them.

Can't double fair
Aerials have gross lag
Dancing blade feels worse than brawl
No chain grabs or guaranteed attacks after a grab.
Shorter range.

Nothing feels/looks good about them.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Cool beans.

 

[Shaya]

I'm deeply disappointed in both of them.

Can't double fair
Aerials have gross lag
Dancing blade feels worse than brawl
No chain grabs or guaranteed attacks after a grab.
Shorter range.

Nothing feels/looks good about them.

They definitely aren't shorter range though xyro bro.
Tell me characters can deal with full hop forward air.

Landing lag sucks. Just don't land. That already was a thing for Marth in Brawl.

Dancing Blade is worse than Brawl. Maybe we'll learn to use it better. But we're meant to use JAB now as our poke, DB1 no longer completely eclipsing it is a sound design decision. Otherwise it's mostly the same stuff.

If only you had customs legal at your tournaments you could use dash assault and wreck kids.

 

[Xyro77]

Customs are legal at my events for now.

It feels like with each game the range gets shorter. Or maybe his moves are just getting worse.

And what do you mean not land? Do you mean get on a platform? Use a 2nd jump?Why would I waste my 2nd jump when the foe is below me ready to punish? It's not like I can AirDodge into the ground anymore as we did in brawl. I have no idea wtf can be done with the character right now. Feels mega restricting.


Edit: Doesnt marth suffer from the thing MK does? The thing where your sword goes through the enemy but does no damage and no KnockBack?

 

[Shaya]

MK's sword doesn't go through the enemy without dealing damage though. He has some swoosh effect on his particles for all his attacks, his SWORD (you know, the yellow thing) never doesn't hit people where it swings.

And no, I don't believe so. I feel stuff like Forward Smash hits where it shouldn't, and so does Up Smash for sure. I think there are some blind spots really close to their bodies that weren't there in other games, but I really haven't noticed them often enough at this stage.

You full hop rising forward air. It tippers their shield on the latest hit. You retreat away on the rise and react to what they do, as you're free to attack shortly after the apex of your jump. This includes just fairing again, nairing, or sometimes yeah, jumping.

Now add dash assault to this mixture. Forward air tipper hits shield or your opponent does an action to avoid that pressure (such as roll away or spot dodge; I'm sure scrubs won't do this forever, but it's very common right now) and then you have that mother ****ing tornado phantasm wrecking whatever action they take other than hard engaging him (otherwise it's a completely advantageous trade for Marth, shield's definitely poke in this game, and Marth's fair/dtilt AND dash assault poke eventually).

 

[Xyro77]

What is dash assault?

 

[Emblem Lord]

So you judge characters without knowing their full capabilities?

Interesting.

And no Marth's range is the same as Brawl. He lost some stuff. EVERYONE lot stuff even Sheik qho is regarded as top 2 currently.

They have good stuff about them. If all you did was throw out fairs and wait for Dancing Blade punishes then yes he will seem ALOT worse then he actually is.

Their footsies are still hella nice, still can't really be trapped, still amazing at trapping and they get way better with customs.

Dashing Assault is his 3rd Neutral B custom. They launch across the stage with the shield breaker animation and the hitbox is active for the entire time the sword is out. The attack is transcedent, allowing it to beat pretty much any non invincible/super armored attack.

 

[Kinslayer]

If you believe she can "rushdown" online then you are using her wrong or...actually thats the only explanation. She is not a character that can just swing at people. Spacing is still very important for her. Maybe even more so because she is not as safe on block as marth is.

No one said she can just swing her sword around and win. How about we don't assume things. You can be very offensive while still having to space. Look at false he plays a very very offensive lucina.

 

[Emblem Lord]

HA!!! See...thats different. Offensive and rushdown. Not the same. We are on the same page now. Rushdown = you go IN.
Offensive just means you are pressuring and attempting to control your opponent with that pressure.

 

[Kinslayer]

HA!!! See...thats different. Offensive and rushdown. Not the same. We are on the same page now. Rushdown = you go IN.
Offensive just means you are pressuring and attempting to control your opponent with that pressure.

I think you can rush down people will maintains a certain amount of spacing. A good example is testament from guilty gear. You can go absolutely nuts on people but you still want to maintain a reasonable amount of space between you and your opponent.in kof k' works that way too

 

[Xyro77]

The game hasn't been out 3 months so NO ONE knows fully what marth can do. Also, it's on the inferior system (3ds) so I hope the c-stick helps when the WiiU version is out.

I never judged marth. I was saying right now he/her feels like they are bad since they lost a lot. This is a fair thing to feel.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Of course. But your expectation of what marth should be plays a role in your disappointment. He did lose stuff but if his meta retains effectiveness then it doesnt matter. Marth needs wii u version to unleash his potential anyway.

 

[Xyro77]

Of course. But your expectation of what marth should be plays a role in your disappointment. He did lose stuff but if his meta retains effectiveness then it doesnt matter. Marth needs wii u version to unleash his potential anyway.

It's not what he "should" have. It's what he lost. I feels he's lost more than he's gained.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Perhaps he did. But if it was for the betterment of the games balance then i can live with that

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

Lucina is slightly shorter than Marth, according to a post by Sakurai on Miiverse.

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

I'm deeply disappointed in both of them.

Can't double fair
Aerials have gross lag
Dancing blade feels worse than brawl
No chain grabs or guaranteed attacks after a grab.
Shorter range.

Nothing feels/looks good about them.

You can't use dancing blade for recovery anymore ;-; Also his attacks have way too much knockback.

 

[EternalFlame]

Customs are legal at my events for now.

It feels like with each game the range gets shorter. Or maybe his moves are just getting worse.
. . .
I have no idea wtf can be done with the character right now. Feels mega restricting.

I'm deeply disappointed in both of them.

Can't double fair
Aerials have gross lag
Dancing blade feels worse than brawl
No chain grabs or guaranteed attacks after a grab.
Shorter range.

Nothing feels/looks good about them.

Though I am no pro at Marth, I am willing to defend what he can do in this game. Marth can link certain a/b moves to grabs, he can Uair/Dolphin Slash opponents off a down throw, and Dancing Blade personally is my best mixup option with Marth in the air and on the ground - I even use it more in 4 than I ever had in Brawl.

I can admit that Dancing Blades specifically is slower than Brawls, but it is by no means less useful than before. Fair walls, slightly shorter reach, and Chain grabs are a good enough trade off, since now people will be forced to learn Marth's new options and approaches (personally I'm glad Marth is as he is now). Marth still functions well despite his nerfs, and the principle style of using Marth well hasn't changed.

He has certainly changed from his previous iteration, so I can understand where you are coming from. But just thought to express my personal opinion on the matter xD

You can't use dancing blade for recovery anymore ;-; Also his attacks have way too much knockback.

True that, but at least he can stall in the air a bit with it, and is good at setups and mixups. Plus we have the Shield breaker which helps tremendously with recovery I find. Knowing to work with the knockback is the key to making Marth function better I'd say, and as I use him now, I don't find his knockback too much of a problem (granted I use setups that don't force much knockback, even at high percents xD).

 

[PK Gaming]

That will probably change over time.

The fact that Marth's FH retreating fair is safe on shield, while Lucina's isn't sounds like a major dealbreaker to me.

 

[EternalFlame]

That will probably change over time.

The fact that Marth's FH retreating fair is safe on shield, while Lucina's isn't sounds like a major dealbreaker to me.

A retreating Fair can be protected by a landing Shield Breaker or Dancing Blades from personal experience. But just off of the Fair alone, I'm assuming the block stun from Marth's is longer than Lucina's? or is there something else to it?

As far as memory serves, I thought Lucina's was safer since her's is faster and/or completes without as much landing lag as Marth

 

[Emblem Lord]

Their frame data is identical. So hers is not faster and her landing recovery is equal.

 

[PK Gaming]

A retreating Fair can be protected by a landing Shield Breaker or Dancing Blades from personal experience. But just off of the Fair alone, I'm assuming the block stun from Marth's is longer than Lucina's? or is there something else to it?

As far as memory serves, I thought Lucina's was safer since her's is faster and/or completes without as much landing lag as Marth

No, Lucina's are objectively less safe.

The fact that Marth doesn't have to commit to throwing out a move after a SH Fair makes him better. Safer.

It'll matter a lot more down the line, especially as players start to improve.

 

[grandmaster192]

I think you guys are over simplifying their differences by just saying Lucina is easier, which is surprising considering there are some very intelligent people in this thread. Marth and Lucina both have merits for playing one over the other. Marth is better at poking, whereas Lucina is better out of shield than Marth. I feel like she punishes better as well. If I had a keyboard, I'd do a write up on what I feel their differences are and how it effects their gameplay. There are small differences between these two that will make one excell at one part of Marth's strength while the other excels at the other half of Marth's strengths. I think the more successful Marth mains are going to alternate between the two to deal with different match ups.

 

[EternalFlame]

No, Lucina's are objectively less safe.

The fact that Marth doesn't have to commit to throwing out a move after a SH Fair makes him better. Safer.

It'll matter a lot more down the line, especially as players start to improve.

I apologize, but I don't quite see how Lucina's are objectively less safe than Marth's. Emblem Lord made the point before that the length of their blades are generally the same, simply the height differences affect the reach of their moves, so I can assume it's not that (though that reach difference may mean something). Both recoveries from Fair are the same after looking at them more carefully, as Emblem Lord had stated earlier. Marth and Lucina don't need to throw out an attack to protect their Fairs, but I do it anyways to be safe. I am a Marth player primarily, so that approach I developed for my Marth (though it started as a discovery for a friend's Lucina).

So do explain what you mean by being less safe, as I'm curious by what you mean. I do not disagree that it will be of great importance, thus my want to understand your point better.

I think you guys are over simplifying their differences by just saying Lucina is easier, which is surprising considering there are some very intelligent people in this thread. Marth and Lucina both have merits for playing one over the other. Marth is better at poking, whereas Lucina is better out of shield than Marth. I feel like she punishes better as well. If I had a keyboard, I'd do a write up on what I feel their differences are and how it effects their gameplay. There are small differences between these two that will make one excell at one part of Marth's strength while the other excels at the other half of Marth's strengths. I think the more successful Marth mains are going to alternate between the two to deal with different match ups.

The problem really is where people stand on personal experience and how we can translate all of the different experiences into something substantial for the meta of Marth and Lucina. The general data on stats and frames will greatly affect how each character is defined as well, along with which players we get to represent them. From my understanding, we have the frame data already, though I have yet to look at it myself. We all have different opinions on the matter, but again we will need dedicated time and experience with both characters before a proper meta will be established. We also must ensure that no bias will affect our critique of each character, and that will only be reached through thorough discussion and general consent.

So far people find Lucina to be the easy mode, but that is all subject to change as the game continues to develop.

 

[Shaya]

I think you guys are over simplifying their differences by just saying Lucina is easier, which is surprising considering there are some very intelligent people in this thread. Marth and Lucina both have merits for playing one over the other. Marth is better at poking, whereas Lucina is better out of shield than Marth. I feel like she punishes better as well. If I had a keyboard, I'd do a write up on what I feel their differences are and how it effects their gameplay. There are small differences between these two that will make one excell at one part of Marth's strength while the other excels at the other half of Marth's strengths. I think the more successful Marth mains are going to alternate between the two to deal with different match ups.

Dancing blade will be better on Lucina. Like, that's about it out of shield stuff. I don't believe Lucina's DB will be a kill thing, while tipper upwards can kill earlier than up smash, tipper forward has some strength behind it as well. Most of my revenge kills in this game involve dancing blade on Marth. If Lucina's cannot do the same, that sucks a lot.

You may be ultimately right, that there is a different mindset and applications to Lucina then Marth, hence my general feelings on her being weaker than they should be. I just find that if I'm playing Lucina as if she were Marth, I'm just not getting as much out of it as I do with Marth. So the question is where does Lucina differentiate, if at all? Well I think the fact is that her Jab and Dancing Blade are at base, a lot more usable than Marth's are is worthy of noting (Jab isn't safe for Marth on hit unless tippered a lot of the time, not the case for Lucina, this is pretty huge tbqh, Jab can be combo'd out of). But like, that's it, a more consistent fast poke-tools than Marth does in the same scenario, unless he's spacing well, in which case it doesn't matter and still favours Marth.

 

[PK Gaming]

I apologize, but I don't quite see how Lucina's are objectively less safe than Marth's. Emblem Lord made the point before that the length of their blades are generally the same, simply the height differences affect the reach of their moves, so I can assume it's not that (though that reach difference may mean something). Both recoveries from Fair are the same after looking at them more carefully, as Emblem Lord had stated earlier. Marth and Lucina don't need to throw out an attack to protect their Fairs, but I do it anyways to be safe. I am a Marth player primarily, so that approach I developed for my Marth (though it started as a discovery for a friend's Lucina).

So do explain what you mean by being less safe, as I'm curious by what you mean. I do not disagree that it will be of great importance, thus my want to understand your point better.

Did you read the post I linked to? Specifically:

I haven't tested otherwise, but it does make sense based off of observation.
But Lucina's full hop retreating forward air isn't safe on shield, while Marth's is. Tipper or otherwise.

The reason for this is that Marth's attacks all have hitlag modifiers. Untippered hits have less hitlag, making them technically safer on shield than they would be naturally. Tippered hits produce more hitlag, making them less safe but usually evening out to around the same "frame advantage" due to the extra damage tipper attacks have.

Lucina does not seem to gain those hitlag modifications from what I've seen thus far (would explain shield drop dash attack being a consistent punish on my Lucina while miraculously not being the case for Marth :<), making her considerably less absolutely frame safe on shield than Marth in every instance.
This is just a theory right now, I'll likely test later, but it does make sense, and if this is the case, Lucina is definitely a noticeably weaker character than he is.

Even if this is not the case, I think nearly every match up will be 5 to 10 points extra in Marth's favour going by a 100 scale. Maybe not enough to differ an extra +/- 1 in a match up chart but this will likely be the case based off observation/tournament data. The 10-15% difference Lucina gets in kill power on her regular attacks holds nothing to Marth's tippers killing on average 20% lower on aerials and 30-50%+ earlier on smash attacks.

 

[Tsukihi Araragi]

OK after spending time with both Lucina is way easier to use. You can get KOs easily just over 100%, but with Marth if you get it right you can get a kill at around 70%. If you do your spacing right Marth is better, but SB is better with Lucina and you can do some stuff with it tn the air. Oh, and I barely realized that you DS out of shield.

Also, I found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jytdWYbcUhI