Why is DK64 banned from singles?

[krazyzyko]

I noticed that it wasn't available as a singles counterpick on apex 2014. Why is this? I know there isn't a ledge to tech but I didn't see it ban worthy tbh.

Sorry if this was already discussed. I just couldn't find the post.

 

[shadrach kabango]

Because it sucks.

First thing that comes to mind is awful lighting. Also encourages camping, the antithesis of Melee or fighting games in general. Prioritizes endurance over fisticuffs. Randomness of the barrel. Lame edgeguarding features (the ledge, the top platforms that are difficult to cover) in general.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI

 

[Zodiac]

No one plays like pink shinobi, the only reason he is know is because he played like that. Personally I love that stage as a counterpick.

 

[Laudandus]

He is also know because he was really really really good

I also feel that Rockcrock could have come up with a better way to approach him in that match, I don't think the camping should be quite so one-sided in Peach vs Ganon on that stage.

In general though people have moved toward more neutral stages because it really sucks getting ****ed up by someone on a weird counterpick that massively favors their character in game 2 of a bo3. We can allow that kind of thing if we want and it's "interesting" I guess, but honestly I'd rather just have all 3 games be real matches.

 

[stelzig]

No one plays like pink shinobi, the only reason he is know is because he played like that. Personally I love that stage as a counterpick.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcTzwjJV-eM#t=6m37s

I don't see why it should matter that much that people don't camp as much as they could on it anyway. The platforms are just kinda ****ty for singles. Somewhat works for teams.

 

[Bobakanuchi]

One of the biggest reasons is probably be due to the barrel at the bottom that can save your life, i mean really, if you were playing marth and spiked your opponent and have the barrel save him, that would suck

 

[Massive]

It's too beneficial for characters with good vertical mobility and encourages camping and timeouts.

All it takes is one match against a campy, runaway fox or peach for anyone to understand (those top platforms are broken).

It is a great teams stage though, IMO.

 

[Ezzee]

One of the biggest reasons is probably be due to the barrel at the bottom that can save your life, i mean really, if you were playing marth and spiked your opponent and have the barrel save him, that would suck

*cough*Randall*cough*

 

[Zink Imp]

I always wondered this myself.
I think its a fine stage.

 

[Johnknight1]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5u39LxgyuI

It's always a freaking Peach player that ruins all the fun.

And when it isn't, it's a campy space animal.

Also, don't anti-camping and stalling rules exist=???

But still, Congo Jungle 64 is not really a good 1v1 stage. I mean, for more local tournaments it works, but for regionals on up, no. Too much heavy duty camping.

 

[Laudandus]

Anti-stalling rules exist but they apply to glitch-stalling, not camping; running away is allowed, peach bombering the bottom of Fountain or wobbling someone forever is not.

 

[rawrimamonster]

No ones gonna say it? Do I really have to use THAT word? I'ma HAVE TO be THAT person? Welp..

It's because people play like this:

The stage is antifun, hype killing, and promotes uncatchable camping rewarding gameplay that takes absolutely no risk causing a imbalance for said character that can simply get a kill and run away until the other player is frustrated enough to make mistakes to try and catch them. It's basically trolling peoples patience and is completely the opposite of what Melee is and should be. There is no honor system in playing to win, if someone has to and wants to time out to win they WILL DO IT. Taking away that option isn't about hating the characters that can do it, it's about creating gameplay balance.

 

[Bobakanuchi]

*cough*Randall*cough*

lol yeah you got me on that one

 

[Zhea]

Because Fox/Falco Laser and Platform camping is incredibly strong on this stage. Barrel has little to do with it. We have 2 stages with far more random elements in the mix(PS, while you can see it coming has a random order that can **** you like double rock stage, Yoshi's Shyguys).

 

[Luma]

*cough*Randall*cough*

*cough*randall is timed, l2p*cough*

 

[Ezzee]

*cough*randall is timed, l2p*cough*

*cough*Iknowthatbutsoisthebarrelscrub*cough*

 

[dRevan64]

*cough*Iknowthatbutsoisthebarrelscrub*cough*

Is the direction the barrel fires nonrandom as well? I haven't spent enough time on DK64 to know the answer.

By the way everyone johning about randall ever needs to learn the timer, it isn't too hard. Shy guys on the other hand are an entirely legitimate john in 100% of cases. They ruin everything.

 

[Luma]

from what i know the barrel has random elements while randall has none

 

[Ezzee]

Is the direction the barrel fires nonrandom as well? I haven't spent enough time on DK64 to know the answer.

By the way everyone johning about randall ever needs to learn the timer, it isn't too hard. Shy guys on the other hand are an entirely legitimate john in 100% of cases. They ruin everything.

Can I get a list of Randall times? I can't find them anywhere and I want to know them

 

[dRevan64]

Can I get a list of Randall times? I can't find them anywhere and I want to know them

Randall starts every match inside of the stage. He comes out, on the right side of the stage, on the first 5 (7:55 in a standard match) and goes in on the first 0 (7:50). The next time he comes out is 7:45, on the opposite side, and goes in at 7:40.
The easiest way to think of it is that if the tens' place is odd, Randall is right, if the tens' place is even, Randall is left, and he comes out on 5 and goes on on 0.

 

[N.A.G.A.C.E]

you know what those videos of people camping are not enough of a reason to ban a stage. if it was then after armada vs hbox matches nearly all the stages should be banned. that being said we don't need another counterpick where the space animals will be way to powerful, how about instead we bring back a stage like brinstar or mute city (mute b/c space animals need a bad stage if ps is legal)

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

you know what those videos of people camping are not enough of a reason to ban a stage. if it was then after armada vs hbox matches nearly all the stages should be banned. that being said we don't need another counterpick where the space animals will be way to powerful, how about instead we bring back a stage like brinstar or mute city (mute b/c space animals need a bad stage if ps is legal)

Hbox vs Armada is different because they were both playing extremely defensive (not sure if they both wanted to time each other out, but that's what it looks like). It's incredibly easy on kongo for one person to time out someone even if the opponent approaches the entire time because of the way the platforms are setup. I'd be fine with allowing Mute City to come back if PS was legal again. Would also be willing to accept Brinstar back as well if we got Corneria back, but i doubt that'll happen.

 

[Pritch]

Man, I would let stadium back SOOOO fast if it would get me mute city. Would make me extremely happy.

 

[Shrug]

Speaking of Mute City, Brinstar, and Corneria, why aren't they used anymore? I recall seeing stages like those three, Peach's Castle, Poke Floats, and Rainbow Cruise in the documentary, but the current stage list doesn't include them.

My guess would be that the stage hazards, or the fact that they are moving in the case of Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, led some people to dislike them for competitive play, where a player's skill is being measured, not how much they can avoid being killed by the stage. I might be missing the reason entirely here, but that's my best guess.

 

[JKJ]

Stadiums still legal tho right?

 

[Ezzee]

Speaking of Mute City, Brinstar, and Corneria, why aren't they used anymore? I recall seeing stages like those three, Peach's Castle, Poke Floats, and Rainbow Cruise in the documentary, but the current stage list doesn't include them.

My guess would be that the stage hazards, or the fact that they are moving in the case of Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats, led some people to dislike them for competitive play, where a player's skill is being measured, not how much they can avoid being killed by the stage. I might be missing the reason entirely here, but that's my best guess.

Mute city's problem is that it had no ledges, basically meaning fox could waveshine you off the stage and hit you again and you can't do anything. It also makes getting back on the stage nearly impossible cause it severely limits your options. Brinstar had problem with its breakable platforms. Peach's castle suffered from being incredibly campy due to the fact that it's incredibly dangerous to enter the opponents area. Cornelia also suffers from this, but to a lesser extent since there isn't a giant pillar in the middle of the stage you have to cross. Rainbow cruise moving and weird hazards probably took away from the combo game, but the ship wasn't to bad. Pokefloats was designed by satan

 

[Bones0]

Mute city's problem is that it had no ledges, basically meaning fox could waveshine you off the stage and hit you again and you can't do anything. It also makes getting back on the stage nearly impossible cause it severely limits your options. Brinstar had problem with its breakable platforms. Peach's castle suffered from being incredibly campy due to the fact that it's incredibly dangerous to enter the opponents area. Cornelia also suffers from this, but to a lesser extent since there isn't a giant pillar in the middle of the stage you have to cross. Rainbow cruise moving and weird hazards probably took away from the combo game, but the ship wasn't to bad. Pokefloats was designed by satan

Cornelia also suffers from this, but to a lesser extent since there isn't a giant pillar in the middle of the stage you have to cross.

Cornelia

 

[Zhea]

Cornelly
/10Cornellys

 

[Ezzee]

God damn autocorrect. Oh well, might as well role with the joke

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It promotes characters who can run away really well to succeed here and the height of the platforms is really hard for some characters to deal with.

I also lol at the, "people don't play campy." They will if money is on the line and some players just play campy in general. It's too polarizing of a stage to be legal.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

Stadiums still legal tho right?

As a counterpick, yes. It used to be a starter though

 

[Pritch]

The waveshine thing on mute really isn't really an issue - the lack of an edge doesn't particularly change that dynamic. You're either a character who has an effective answer to being off the stage and below fox or you're not, and the presence or lack of an edge doesn't really come into play. What mute does do is SEVERELY hamstring the recovery of characters who need the edge to have safe recovery options. That and the very large blast zones (largest after dreamland?) makes it a really strong stage for floaties with good recovery (peach, jiggs, samus to a lesser extent, pika maybe, a few others) and cripplingly bad for characters who depend on the edge for safe recovery (fox, falco, sheik, etc).

 

[Bacon&Eggs]

jiggs gets guaranteed rollout on Mute City if the opponent has to up B to recover

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

*cough*Randall*cough*

randall is based on time
the barrel is random

 

[Bones0]

jiggs gets guaranteed rollout on Mute City if the opponent has to up B to recover

Everyone gets guaranteed stuff on laggy up-Bs. The reason MC sucks is there are cars flying around that hit people.

 

[Divinokage]

Everyone gets guaranteed stuff on laggy up-Bs. The reason MC sucks is there are cars flying around that hit people.

No edge either so the stage doesn't really allow standard play.

 

[Bacon&Eggs]

Everyone gets guaranteed stuff on laggy up-Bs. The reason MC sucks is there are cars flying around that hit people.

Well yeah, but the point is that there's no ledge for them to grab which means Puff can charge the rollout with confidence

also hi fellow BDC member!!!

 

[Bones0]

No edge either so the stage doesn't really allow standard play.

I'm not sure if that justifies a ban though. It'd certainly make it different from other stages, but DK64, YS, and BF all have different ledges, but none of them bother me. If we had all the current legal stages with the only difference being BF didn't have grabbable ledges, would you keep it legal or just switch to 5 stages? There's no doubt it would be considered non-standard because the majority of stages have ledges, but all of the stages are non-standard in their own way so I think keeping a ledgeless stage would have been a total possibility.

Well yeah, but the point is that there's no ledge for them to grab which means Puff can charge the rollout with confidence

also hi fellow BDC member!!!

LOL OMG. I've had so many people recognize me from BDC since long after I left. Kinda crazy...

Kinda wanna hop on MK:DS now. XD

 

[Divinokage]

I'm not sure if that justifies a ban though. It'd certainly make it different from other stages, but DK64, YS, and BF all have different ledges, but none of them bother me. If we had all the current legal stages with the only difference being BF didn't have grabbable ledges, would you keep it legal or just switch to 5 stages? There's no doubt it would be considered non-standard because the majority of stages have ledges, but all of the stages are non-standard in their own way so I think keeping a ledgeless stage would have been a total possibility.

I think it was only 1 of the reasons why it was banned, it was also over-centralizing Peach/Jiggs.. they got a free win on that stage. Then there's cars as well.