Why do Sheik mains suck?

[darkatma]

Serious question. I didn't feel Sheik mains were too underrepresented at Genesis 2, but we suck in terms of placing. If Sheik is such a good character why can't we start placing better?

 

[Teczer0]

We try to copy m2k too much.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mix of laziness and lack of drive, really.

Very few of us have bothered to really think about what the next level of Sheik is because most figured we could just copy M2K's model. Trouble is, not even that model is cutting it these days. We basically have to move our character forward, instead of sideways.

I also think her learning curve vs space animals is kind of complicated because she doesn't have an easymode u-throw combo on them like every other good character (we have to figure out tech chase strategies, which are less consistent and clunky in general). Tech chase strats, funny thing, tend to be sort of personal because everyone has a different approach to them because of varying skillsets in reaction time. So lack of a uniform combo game sort of hurts her development there.

I also generally think there's a stigma about figuring stuff out with Sheik because she's supposed to be a simple, pick-up-and-play character with no real learning curve. I don't think she is, honestly, but I certainly can't help but think most are happy with the Fair, F-tilt, grab formula despite its numerous shortcomings.

 

[unknown522]

well, at least you guys acknowledge that it's the players, not the character/matchup/w/e.

Hopefully the marths find this out soon too.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Haha, funny you mention that. You'd think the rising population of Ice Climber players would hurt us, but we never seem to run into them. Or they're bad at the matchup. Or something.

 

[Beat!]

well, at least you guys acknowledge that it's the players, not the character/matchup/w/e.

Hopefully the marths find this out soon too.

I love this post so much.

So much.

 

[Navn]

Because Sheik is an easy character, and thus attracts the lazy players that don't feel like putting alot of effort into the game.

 

[Beat!]

Did you even read Kirbykaze's post?

 

[gm jack]

We know we have so many things which can be possible (perfect tech chasing etc), but very few of us are able to actually do what we know we should be able to.

 

[Navn]

Did you even read Kirbykaze's post?

Nah, i guess i missed that one. Atleast my post is TRYING to have content relevant to the topic at hand.

Spoiler

unlike most of your posts

 

[Beat!]

unlike most of your posts

That is just... incorrect. And claiming that Sheik is easy to play when you (at least according to your character icons) main another character is just plain ignorant, "relevant to the topic" or not.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Because Sheik is an easy character, and thus attracts the lazy players that don't feel like putting alot of effort into the game.

My lazy *** Sheik would probably 3-stock your ***** *** you stupid space animal maining ***** ******.

 

[Beat!]

The painful TRUTH

 

[Navn]

Yes, your lazy *** Sheik would probably woop me any day, even after i spent countless of hours practising Fox, while you and your fellow Sheik-players were eating bagles to improve your techskill.

The sad truth

 

[Beat!]

Ignorance is bliss.

 

[Shadow Huan]

just because sheik is easy to play doesn't make her easy to compete with at the highest level, and because of the size of the group of "lazy" sheiks a lot of players complian about the MU but play it enough that they seem to get good at it without realizing it.

or something like that lol

 

[Navn]

@beat: You're just mad because i called you out on your spamming ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I wasn't being entirely serious about Sheik, but what can you do in these kinds of threads. KK is probably lightyears ahead of me in practise and dedication.

 

[Beat!]

Actually, I didn't even mind that part because it was a very silly attempt at a personal stab.

 

[Van.]

Many top sheiks have pretty much admitted that they are lazy when it comes to this game, so i don't really iunderstand what people are getting all ruffled about.

In general, sheik players play about three times a month, for about 12 hours at a time at tournaments/smashfests. They probably don't think very hard about how to update and improve their character.

My icon says marth, but I pretty juch main sheik now.

This is just how I see it. Sheik is kind of unnattractive to new players now, so she's been stagnant lately.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yes, your lazy *** Sheik would probably woop me any day, even after i spent countless of hours practising Fox, while you and your fellow Sheik-players were eating bagles to improve your techskill.

The sad truth

The sad truth is my Fox would probably **** you harder.

Unless I've practiced my Sheik (gasp) and drilled the tech chase into my brain using my secret tech chase practice routine, and I've done my movement training exercises (so I have access to various superpowers like ledge wavelands, SH Nairs OOS, proper waveland distances, and super fast edgehogging that make the Fox matchup much easier).

But since I'm lazy that would never happen. I'm just far too busy munching my bagels.

 

[Van.]

"I don't play anymore outside of tournaments and smashfests."

-kirbykaze

 

[KirbyKaze]

My situation has changed, as I have a player living in my basement now.

So now I play a lot more. And practice a lot more. But I can't enter tournaments because I work Saturdays. But I still play a lot at smashfests too.

I'm like quasi-inactive.

 

[Van.]

Oh I see. Good to know that people are still putting practice time on their own to this game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mostly I just look at button efficiency and think of ways I can better execute what I'm doing. Or I try to think of new stuff. Or I work on old stuff (which kind of feeds into the first one). Or I practice the fast faller tech chase timings (so they're drilled into my brain!).

 

[Navn]

Unless I've practiced my Sheik (gasp) and drilled the tech chase into my brain using my secret tech chase practice routine, and I've done my movement training exercises (so I have access to various superpowers like ledge wavelands, SH Nairs OOS, proper waveland distances, and super fast edgehogging that make the Fox matchup much easier).

 

[KirbyKaze]

 

[Wake]

hahaha KK is too goood! But really, I can't imagine any character being easy at a high level.

 

[KirbyKaze]

None of them are, really.

People just like to ***** about who has it easier. Even if it's by an unimportant amount.

 

[Teczer0]

What... happened in this thread while I was gone.

Like what

 

[KirbyKaze]

He whipped out a bagel but I killed it with my dead fox. It's all elementary, my dear Haley.

 

[Pi]

takes a good player to do well regardless of character
people like to say i've heard YL vs. puff is easy so why doesn't everyone train up a YL for hbox


also
i'm sure the ratio of foxes who made it to bracket and foxes who entered wasn't too different from sheiks ratio's

 

[Teczer0]

takes a good player to do well regardless of character
people like to say i've heard YL vs. puff is easy so why doesn't everyone train up a YL for hbox


also
i'm sure the ratio of foxes who made it to bracket and foxes who entered wasn't too different from sheiks ratio's

That last part is something I agree with a lot.

Fox probably has a slightly higher ratio considering the sheer number of competent and skilled fox players.

But yea.

 

[pressokman]

I agree with kirbykaze that everyone is copying M2K's sheik. NTSC Sheiks have the skill but they are working in a very small box of options that they truly have. I'm an NTSC player in a PAL country and i've had to learn the different u-air combos and new strategies for tech chasing (possible to cover every option in PAL if you use dash attack canceled grab for tech roll away) and it's really changed the way i think about her. F-tilting into f-airing is a great option but sometimes there are better options and having to change the way i play sheik has really opened up my tiny "in the box" way of thinking. If sheiks want to get innovative and get to the next level i would suggest modelling amsah more than M2K. M2K does the right thing, but never changes it up. amsah moves like water and is always doing something different.

 

[Tee ay eye]

lucien would've gotten off on everyone if someone didn't have to be a terrible person and beat him in his worst MU

 

[KirbyKaze]

This is relevant to the improvement of Sheik's metagame.

 

[Navn]

Wavedashing in place? If yes, i agree very much. I just recently started doing it as Fox, and it keeps making people do stupid things.

Also your dead fox was sick, but hilarious.

 

[Van.]

Mostly I just look at button efficiency and think of ways I can better execute what I'm doing. Or I try to think of new stuff. Or I work on old stuff (which kind of feeds into the first one). Or I practice the fast faller tech chase timings (so they're drilled into my brain!).

Could you do me a favor and write everything you know about how to get even marginally better at techchasing fastfallers playing on your own? I'm sure there isn't much to do, and virtually everyone says its impossible, but now there might be some hope.

I guess what I'm asking is for you to rephrase/clarify your last sentence, because I'm not 100% sure what you mean.

I really appreciate it.

 

[darkatma]

lucien would've gotten off on everyone if someone didn't have to be a terrible person and beat him in his worst MU

No johns, it's my worst matchup too, next to falcon. Just ask OkamiBW how he did in a Sheik ditto vs me

Also, I don't copy m2k, I copy amsah. Love his playstyle much much more. Also explains why I suck vs falcon

Besides, if either me or lucien beat sfat, we would've gotten ***** my m2k, since he effed up his seed x (

 

[KirbyKaze]

Wavedashing in place? If yes, i agree very much. I just recently started doing it as Fox, and it keeps making people do stupid things.

Also your dead fox was sick, but hilarious.

I'm not sure what it is. I think it might be part of her sidestep or knockdown but I'm unsure. I'll ask Sveet.

Wavedashing down is good.

Could you do me a favor and write everything you know about how to get even marginally better at techchasing fastfallers playing on your own? I'm sure there isn't much to do, and virtually everyone says its impossible, but now there might be some hope.

I guess what I'm asking is for you to rephrase/clarify your last sentence, because I'm not 100% sure what you mean.

I really appreciate it.

Basically I just use an elastic on a controller I don't care about to hold the Z + C-stick down and set that at P2. This causes the controller to, in matches where C-stick is enabled, constantly buffer sidestep. In P1 I have my own controller.

There's a Melee hack for C-stick in training mode. So I set the CPU on human (remember how it constantly buffer sidesteps now?) and then just down throw, then switch controllers to make the human DI and tech various ways, and then switch back to my own controller to try and get the boost grab distance correct or grab them before the sidestep goes through. It lets you know your timing is accurate within 3 frames or so. I also feel it helps me get used to recognizing the tech animations better.

But it requires some hardware and software and not everyone gets good results out of practicing it this way.

I feel it really helps me, though. If you already own a hacked Wii, and have access to a blank DVD + the means to burn a copy of SSBM, it may be worth looking into. The hack also has debug mode and some other nifty features anyway so that might be worth trying for those too. It's available somewhere in the Melee Workshop in Melee Discussion.

lucien would've gotten off on everyone if someone didn't have to be a terrible person and beat him in his worst MU

I thought you were talking about Peach for a second. What with him losing to Light in pools (iirc) and Darkatma being a dual main. I suck at Sheik dittos too. But somehow won the last four Sheik ditto sets I played (all at Pound 5). So random. Sheik dittos are dumb anyway though. They're just a matter of how well you can do stupid grab combos to one another, and short hop Fair (and how well you can counter short hop Fair).

No johns, it's my worst matchup too, next to falcon. Just ask OkamiBW how he did in a Sheik ditto vs me

Also, I don't copy m2k, I copy amsah. Love his playstyle much much more. Also explains why I suck vs falcon

Besides, if either me or lucien beat sfat, we would've gotten ***** my m2k, since he effed up his seed x (

The trouble is we're copying people in general. And not making anything of our own. But yeah, you play more like a Euro-Sheik.

Doesn't explain why you suck vs Fox though

 

[Van.]

^ I reeeeeeally appreciate it. I'll have to do whatever I can to get this together.

Edit: Damn I never thought about how useful a c-stick in training mode hack would really be. I've always wanted to know if i can really do the drill shine infinite with foxy