Why am I expected to feel proud of my country?

[e__]

I, like a majority of SWF, am an American. I was born in Cincinnati, moved to Kansas City for a few years, and moved back. I have spent my entire life in the suburbs of the midwest (hardcore, right?) and in no way feel any pride for the United States of America. People expect me to feel proud of my country, people expect me to stand for the pledge of allegiance and give respect to a country I don't respect, give respect to a system and government and political alignment that I don't respect all because I was born in this country.

To perhaps bring a better understanding to this, I want people to realize that I am a libertarian/anarchist; I think that government should be as small as possible, preferably none, while still having small capitalist communities (like cities) that interact with other communities. I do not personally believe that I have any reason to support a country that is as diverse as the United States, as there is nothing that really connects us other than the flag that we live under.

The formation of this country was 200 years ago in a completely different time with completely different standards. Ironically, PART (I know the main reasons) of the reason they rebelled was they didn't feel loyalty towards England like the original settlers who came there around 150 years ago. They ended up rebelling against the country. If I so much as choose to not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I get a detention. Why am I expected to stand to show my respect to a flag of a country I don't respect and I don't support. I was not alive during the cold war; I was not involved in the Democracy (Freedom) vs. Communism (slavery and oppression) fight. I wasn't old enough to comprehend the Gulf war when it occurred. I felt patriotism during 9/11, but then George Bush ruined it for me with Iraq, and I started looking into politics and started having major issues with the political systems that run the country and the way we are handling this failing economy.

Why am I expected to feel pride for my country?

 

[MojoMan]

My friend, I amen you.

 

[Jam Stunna]

I was not involved in the Democracy (Freedom) vs. Communism (slavery and oppression) fight.

Are these your own words/feelings to characterize the Cold War? Because if they are, I don't know how you can feel that way and then say you have no pride in America.

Furthermore, are you against the idea of nations in general, or this nation in particular?

 

[e__]

My friend, I amen you.

Thank you.

Are these your own words/feelings to characterize the Cold War? Because if they are, I don't know how you can feel that way and then say you have no pride in America.

No, I'm talking about how the American propaganda was that democracy was freedom and that communism was meant to destroy freedom. I know that communism, in it's true meaning (ignoring the socialism that claimed to be communist, as communism has never existed that I can think of) is "freedom" as well, but in America during that time communism was seen as horrible.

I meant from that statement that I was not alive DURING the cold war so I couldn't develop these strong feelings towards democracy that many people did during the cold war.

Furthermore, are you against the idea of nations in general, or this nation in particular?

I'm against nations in general.

 

[Crimson King]

The Cold War was hardly Democracy vs. Communism because we were no more a democracy than USSR was actually communist. Interesting how we both claimed to be something we weren't.

 

[blazedaces]

If I so much as choose to not stand for the Pledge of Allegiance I get a detention.

Do you got a private or public school? If you go to a public school this is technically illegal. If I were you, and I wish I had the chance to go back with the knowledge I have today, I would refuse to stand up for it and I would argue with anyone who tried to give me detention on those grounds. It's literally illegal to do so.

-blazed

 

[Squidster]

I think that patriotism or respect for your country is important. At least a little bit.
If you are living in a country you love then you have a reason to work to improve it. People might say “if you don’t like the country you’re living in then leave,” but I wonder why you dislike the country and see if we can accommodate.

I don’t believe in everything our country and I’m not going to sit here and defend things that America has done that are wrong, but my patriotism comes in the form of wanting to save Americas name. Its not just “I like what I’ve got” but “I want to make what I’ve got great.”

As far as having to say the pledge of allegiance that’s a separate debate. Schools force patriotism in order to motivate children to have self respect and have a reason to work hard. Is it right? Maybe not. But having kids who are in love with their countries is much more effective than having kids who are anarchists.

In short, the country forces you to be patriotic because its beneficial to them. You should have the mindset that if you don’t like your country you should either work to make something your proud of, or leave.

 

[Caturdayz]

Forced nationalism makes me sick, it is no secret that I am not a fan of the United States, congress, our foreign policy, our domestic policy, our flawed capitalism, our flawed presidents, et cetera.

That being said I am more of a patriot than any redneck...

In the words of the Dead Kennedy's: "This land I love it too, I think I love it more than you, I care enough to fight The stars and stripes of corruption"

I don't hate my country, I don't hate our troops and I don't hate people that do blindly believe whatever they are told. But I do hate the people that are taking lives to line their pockets and spread propaganda to make us believe that they are "protecting our freedoms" and the fools buy it.

To the OP: I was recently in a similar situation with my Vietnam-vet teacher throwing me out of his class for not standing for the pledge, simply put he can't and you cannot get detention for it, bring it up with your principal and if he does not comply bring it up with your attorney.

 

[HyugaRicdeau]

I'm against nations in general.

Power hierarchies emerge naturally no matter how hard you try to dissipate nationhood, because ultimately societies need defense from attack. Rome assimilated Greece with ease because Rome was a nation, and Greece was a collection of squabbling city-states.

And if you're really a Libertarian, then you should be glad to live in America; it's one of the most libertarian nations in the world. That's not to say it isn't in need of improvement of course. You need to separate the policy of an administration you don't agree with from the society and government system itself. They are distinct things. It seems like you just have disdain for America because of what you perceive as a low point in international relations or economy, or that you simply can't or won't relate to the history that shaped our society.

 

[MojoMan]

You know, I would be proud to be an American, but after what President Bush did to this country and put out to the world that America is greedy and wasteful, I am ashamed to be an American. Once he leaves, I hope the next president will improve our situation.

 

[Amide]

I'm not exactly proud of my country either, but for different reasons.

First off, all of our politicians. They lie, and we are in a war we shouldn't be in. While Republicans have a myth that they can handle the economy when 70% of our debt has been under three Republican presidents, the Democrats are afraid of lowering spending. We have awful politicians.

But for the most part, it's the people. The bigoted, ignorant, people. If for say, a vital reason someone raised taxes, everyone would go insane, because everyone hates taxes. Even if you're ten trillion dollars in debt, taxes can't be raised. It's not our problem! Oh, and gays can't get married because I'm straight, I mean who cares about them, right? (Sorry for the sarcasm, I'm just sort of angry)

Oh yeah, and we think it's awful that these executions get held in other countries, but we execute prisoners too, prisoners that ended up having done nothing wrong. We torture detainees and we learn nothing from them, yet we go crazy if Americans get tortured.

OK, that was a little over the top. I have lots of problems with the country though.

I do think, however, that the government should play a role in our lives. Just not the role it has right now.

 

[e__]

As far as having to say the pledge of allegiance that’s a separate debate.

I disagree, because the fact that people won't stand and say the pledge surprises them because they expect the kids to feel proud of their country.

Schools force patriotism in order to motivate children to have self respect and have a reason to work hard. Is it right? Maybe not. But having kids who are in love with their countries is much more effective than having kids who are anarchists.

Is that really it? Because the way I see it, school doesn't train kids to be ready for their country, but to be prepared for capitalism. An anarchist should have just as much motivation to succeed as all of the other kids unless he plans to underachieve.

To the OP: I was recently in a similar situation with my Vietnam-vet teacher throwing me out of his class for not standing for the pledge, simply put he can't and you cannot get detention for it, bring it up with your principal and if he does not comply bring it up with your attorney.

Thanks, I'll take that to mind.

Power hierarchies emerge naturally no matter how hard you try to dissipate nationhood, because ultimately societies need defense from attack. Rome assimilated Greece with ease because Rome was a nation, and Greece was a collection of squabbling city-states.

Sad, but true. It would be possible though for a smaller society to have an alliance with more powerful states for protection

I think that patriotism or respect for your country is important. At least a little bit.
If you are living in a country you love then you have a reason to work to improve it. People might say “if you don’t like the country you’re living in then leave,” but I wonder why you dislike the country and see if we can accommodate.

I don’t believe in everything our country and I’m not going to sit here and defend things that America has done that are wrong, but my patriotism comes in the form of wanting to save Americas name. Its not just “I like what I’ve got” but “I want to make what I’ve got great.”

And if you're really a Libertarian, then you should be glad to live in America; it's one of the most libertarian nations in the world. That's not to say it isn't in need of improvement of course. You need to separate the policy of an administration you don't agree with from the society and government system itself. They are distinct things. It seems like you just have disdain for America because of what you perceive as a low point in international relations or economy, or that you simply can't or won't relate to the history that shaped our society.

I disagree. I believe that modern America is too large and too diverse for its government to be effectively minimized. We will always need a large army to protect a large amount of land, and we simply have too many people for libertarianism or anarchy TO work. A city state like Luxembourg would appear to be better. Something that's small and localized with a republic as a government already would be great for libertarians (of course, it's also in the EU, so that's a major downer; it was an example).

 

[AltF4]

Ehh...

Things aren't all that bad. If you're just complaining that politics and / or politicians are corrupt, then tough nuggets. They've been corrupt ever since they've been around. At least in America you're free to openly voice your opinions. In other places of the world doing so may just make you mysteriously disappear.

That said, it bugs me when people's idea of "patriotism" is to fly a large US flag from the back of their Ford pickup truck. It seems that "patriotism" has somehow transformed into "agreeing with every decision made by the current administration". Rather than critical inquiry.

 

[Amide]

I guess you're right Alt. We do have rights that many countries don't. Still, the government is corrupt.

On the second note, it also annoys me how politicians aren't patriotic if they don't where a flag pin all the time.

 

[Crimson King]

There are many countries who have a far more laissez-faire approach their economy than we do, but we are still pretty high up there.

Politicians are just actors in the play called "Politics" *cue Seinfeld music*

90% of them are liars, crooks, cheats, and will do or say anything to get into office. The other 10% are honest men and women, who are usually voted out of Congress, the Senate, or written out of the presidential election because they "don't support the interest of the party," aka pander to get the most money. Sadly, this trend is not going to end in the near future, but Americans are definitely waking up to the ****ty situation the politicians are putting us in.

Case in point: Iran. Yesterday or maybe Tuesday, they started ballistics testing, and the US got pissed. Nevermind that the US has been lining troops on the borders of Iraq and Afghanistan for a potential surge. After that was announced, BOTH Obama, who is supposed to be against the War, and McCain have chastised Iran for doing this and are talking of strategies to get out of the situation and disarm. In less political words: War with Iran is looking closer and closer.

 

[Amide]

@CK

I really don't think Iran is a threat to the US, (Iraq wasn't either) and things could go terribly wrong if we went to war with Iran. It would be awfully hypocritical for Obama to support a war with them.

 

[Vro]

Aside from your petty complaints about our nation's personality, history, attitude, politics, economy, or whatever, America is a great country. The grass is in fact not greener on most other sides, especially in your libertarian/anarchist vision. As most people have mentioned before, our country is nowhere near the desolate you see.

You don't have to be a part of, care about, or like the history your country holds. In fact, you don't have to live in whatever country you don't want to. The main reason pride is so common and accepted is because everyone likes to have pride in themselves; where you live is an extension of yourself.

There's a difference between nationalism and pride tho. I would say I enjoy my lifestyle in the United States. I can say I'm pretty proud of our standing in the world and the environment it can provide. But do I agree with the policies the administration issues? Do I support the war? No.

Maybe pride isn't the word I'm looking for, rather it is respect. I don't put my hand on my heart nor recite a word during the pledge. But I always stand, take off my hat if I'm wearing one, and remain silent. Why? Because I choose to live in this country, this country provides for its citizens, and I'd rather live here than many other places. That in itself deserves your respect.

 

[samdaballer]

Don't get me wrong, america is a great country, but I am very saddened and ashamed of it's current path, politicians thinking war is the answer, resulting in thousands of deaths over oil, our government not investing in the proper facets, and most of all, all of the crooked politicians. I am not proud of my country

 

[marthanoob]

There is no inherent need to be patriotic. It is just embedded into culture and happens to be a rather useful control device.
It is also improperly associated. In America, patriotism is illogically associated with freedom, liberty, justice, and other social mores. True freedom would be an anarchism and true justice is an autocratic society.
Just another part of our culture which subjugates us to submit to authority.

To answer the OP, the only requirements or expectations to live in the US are to pay taxes and not break laws. We should be critical of our government to the point of close scrutiny. Expressment of joy/pride is an unnecessary display of emotions and distracts us from our job and/or duty.

 

[e__]

Aside from your petty complaints about our nation's personality, history, attitude, politics, economy, or whatever, America is a great country.

Ok, so besides the economy, politics, history, attitude, and personality, what lets America stand out from another nation like the UK, Germany, or France?

The grass is in fact not greener on most other sides, especially in your libertarian/anarchist vision. As most people have mentioned before, our country is nowhere near the desolate you see.

So you're telling me right now that my political beliefs are definitely worse than modern America. Give me some facts before you go and state that I'm wrong. You have not shown me that you know ANYTHING about anarchy or libertarianism. PROVE this. Don't just state that I'm wrong.

 

[Vro]

I'm not stating that you are blatantly wrong. In fact, I probably know your political beliefs are better than modern America. However, what works in theory and in your personal belief doesn't always work out in reality. Hell, I don't agree with our administration's decisions in almost every category.

However, I will overlook that when looking at the entire aspect of America. You really don't have to be so negative about the country you live in, mostly for the reasons I stated before. There are plenty of average to great qualities of our country.

 

[Eor]

This has nothing to do with libertarianism or anarchy. I personally think both are blatantly stupid and would ruin everything, but I'm not really proud of anything we've done or how we're run. Don't try to turn this into something about his views instead of the issue at hand.

 

[Kur]

Don't get me wrong, america is a great country, but I am very saddened and ashamed of it's current path, politicians thinking war is the answer, resulting in thousands of deaths over oil, our government not investing in the proper facets, and most of all, all of the crooked politicians. I am not proud of my country

Thousands of deaths over oil?

Seriously?

The oil in Iraq was put into a trust to be given to the Iraqi people as soon as they have a stable government.

The US is not getting a single drop of oil out of Iraq because of this 'war'.

Now if the Iraqis decide to sell us oil at a discount because of our services, then great.

Besides, oil is a great reason to go to war. A shortage of oil would cripple this country causing untold havoc, including deaths, disease, poverty, and basically the end of this country. We use oil for far more than just gasoline and energy, it also is what a lot of our products are made out of. Virtually all plastics, rubbers, a lot of clothing, etc. the list goes on and on. If we started running electric cars and solar panels tomorrow, we would still need oil in the millions of barrels just to make computer chips and water bottles.

Nevertheless, oil is not why we are in Iraq.

The government should really not be investing in much of anything. They should be taxing us just enough to run a military, some law enforcement and a few other things.

And as far as crooked politicians... Sure, there are some crooked politicians, but that is a very small minority. Do you really think anybody is going to make a big deal about a politician who isn't doing something crooked?

The fact is that this country is not just the officials running it. I hate that democrats control the congress (as do a lot of other people, 9% approval rating, worse than Bush's) but that does not mean I am not proud of this country because of it.




To the OP, you are expected to be proud of this country because it is worth being proud of. Whether you agree or not with the current leadership, or what is happening over seas, this country has done much more good than bad. Just because a lot of cool stuff happened before you were born does not detract from the good that came of it.

Without this country the world would be a very different place. England may be a huge imperial world power, conquering other smaller countries, still being lead by a tyrant king. Or maybe Germany would be the world leader, exterminating anybody who isn't blond haired and blue eyed.

This country supplies more aid, wealth, and opportunity to more people than any other country on the planet. If something is going down, the world looks to the US to fix the problem.

We have the strongest economy in the world. Even now, when everybody is whining about how bad it is, we are actually still seeing growth. Slight growth, but it is growing. As long as the liberals don't come up with another 'new deal' we should be out of this slow down in no time.

Most of the 'free' countries of the world today have a constitution based around the constitution of the US. We are the standard, the gold ring, the top of the class.

More people immigrate to the US than to any other country because of the freedoms and the opportunities that the citizens of the US enjoy.

I am not saying the US is perfect, or that other countries suck. I am just saying that there is a lot to be proud of.

There is so much to be proud of. Simply throwing all of that away because you are upset over a slight skirmish in Iraq, or a president you don't agree with, is somewhat selfish. You are basically spitting on the grave of the people that fought and died, and the people still fighting and working hard for your freedom and quality of life.

Hate the president, hate the congress, hate the war, whatever. That is all temporary. But don't deny the things that make this country great because of things that aren't going to be around in a few years anyway.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

I'm not proud to be an American, to be honest. Our country is the bully on the block, beating up little kids and taking lunch money. As some have said, I would be proud, if it weren't for our current situation.

I almost feel cheated out of a future. I'm 16, going into the 11th grade. I feel like, in more ways then one, my generation and those close to it are the ones who are going to have to solve all the errors and pull our country out of the hole they've dug themselves into. Its almost unfair... no... it IS unfair.

It's like that commercial, with the little girl, and a projector is displaying the world's pollution on her, showing image after image of terrible pollution, and eventually the images stop, and the little girl says "when you promised me the world, was this what you had in mind?"

I almost feel like that, except with everything. And should I feel proud to have all these issues? Is it really supposed to be a good thing to be the bully?

 

[Kur]

I'm not proud to be an American, to be honest. Our country is the bully on the block, beating up little kids and taking lunch money. As some have said, I would be proud, if it weren't for our current situation.

I almost feel cheated out of a future. I'm 16, going into the 11th grade. I feel like, in more ways then one, my generation and those close to it are the ones who are going to have to solve all the errors and pull our country out of the hole they've dug themselves into. Its almost unfair... no... it IS unfair.

It's like that commercial, with the little girl, and a projector is displaying the world's pollution on her, showing image after image of terrible pollution, and eventually the images stop, and the little girl says "when you promised me the world, was this what you had in mind?"

I almost feel like that, except with everything. And should I feel proud to have all these issues? Is it really supposed to be a good thing to be the bully?

Wow.

I really don't know how to respond to this. All I can say is the US isn't a bully. We are liberating 50 million people, establishing a free government, keeping untold terrorists from attacking innocent people, and we do it in spite of all the protests.

And I am also afraid you will have to clean up some messes. But not the messes you are thinking about. I am afraid that if Barrack Obama gets elected you might have to clean up the messes he is going to make.

But seriously, cheer up. It isn't nearly as gloomy as you think.

 

[marthanoob]

Wow.

I really don't know how to respond to this. All I can say is the US isn't a bully. We are liberating 50 million people, establishing a free government, keeping untold terrorists from attacking innocent people, and we do it in spite of all the protests.

And I am also afraid you will have to clean up some messes. But not the messes you are thinking about. I am afraid that if Barrack Obama gets elected you might have to clean up the messes he is going to make.

But seriously, cheer up. It isn't nearly as gloomy as you think.

Yes it is, to the gloominess and to being a bully.

Do you know how deep in debt we are?

We infringe other countries' national sovereignty (sp?) in the name of Justice and Democracy so many times that I can't even count. Phillipines, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.
You've been lied to. The conservatives have appealed to your fear to the point of paranoia and utter lunacy.
Every president leaves behind messes (except Clinton, that was a private mess) it's just that some leave behind more, like the Bush administration.

 

[Kur]

Yes it is, to the gloominess and to being a bully.

Do you know how deep in debt we are?

We infringe other countries' national sovereignty (sp?) in the name of Justice and Democracy so many times that I can't even count. Phillipines, Panama, Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, etc.
You've been lied to. The conservatives have appealed to your fear to the point of paranoia and utter lunacy.
Every president leaves behind messes (except Clinton, that was a private mess) it's just that some leave behind more, like the Bush administration.

Debt? What country doesn't have debt? And this debt is easily controllable. It will take some time but what we need to do is spend less. Stop with the huge government policies, the ear marks, the discretionary spending, all that garbage. It is the liberal tax and spend policies that are breaking our bank.

If you think the country did something wrong when helping those countries, then I am not likely to change your mind. Each one of them would require a huge wall of text that I am not willing to type out. Yes things go wrong, and bad stuff happened, but over all what was done needed to be done.


And here is the part where I say that the overwhelmingly biased liberal media has been lying to you. You are frustrated with things like high gas prices, which are almost entirely the fault of the liberals anyway, and twist the story around to put the blame on 'big oil' or the president.

And just what fears is it the conservatives have been appealing to? The truth is that I don't just listen to the conservatives. I listen to what both sides have to say and try to decipher the truth from all the BS that both sides are spewing.

It just so happens that I have found the liberals really don't know what they are talking about half the time. Case in point, Obama has his severe anti-war policies and runs around claiming that we can not possibly win in Iraq and we should just leave. He has this view even though he hasn't talked to General Petraeus or any of the other advisors. He is simply reciting age old 'progressive' talking points. And I bet you $10 that as soon as he does, he is going to come back from Iraq with a totally different plan.

Just because I am a conservative, does not mean I automatically believe what any conservative says. As a matter of fact I can't stand Bill O'reilly and most other conservative hosts.

 

[marthanoob]

Debt? What country doesn't have debt? And this debt is easily controllable. It will take some time but what we need to do is spend less. Stop with the huge government policies, the ear marks, the discretionary spending, all that garbage. It is the liberal tax and spend policies that are breaking our bank.

Reducing tax and increasing spending is far worse. Sorry, I wasn't bashing conservatives in general, I was bashing the neo-cons and the conservatives who support them.

If you think the country did something wrong when helping those countries, then I am not likely to change your mind. Each one of them would require a huge wall of text that I am not willing to type out. Yes things go wrong, and bad stuff happened, but over all what was done needed to be done.

Let's do it then. I don't know what definition of "helping" you are using.

And here is the part where I say that the overwhelmingly biased liberal media has been lying to you. You are frustrated with things like high gas prices, which are almost entirely the fault of the liberals anyway, and twist the story around to put the blame on 'big oil' or the president.

I've actually defended the president in other posts because he definitely is taking too much of the blame. But I am comfortable with putting almost all the blame on the Bush administration. Some of it is just caused by the economic slump we are having.
I think it was Reagan who ruined our relationship with OPEC.
Considering the power big oil possesses now and in the history (Standard Oil Company), I would be suspicious of them.

And just what fears is it the conservatives have been appealing to?

Commies, commies, commies.
Mushroom cloud, mushroom cloud, mushroom cloud.
The noble, regal, sacred spread of democracy!

The truth is that I don't just listen to the conservatives. I listen to what both sides have to say and try to decipher the truth from all the BS that both sides are spewing.

Good.

It just so happens that I have found the liberals really don't know what they are talking about half the time. Case in point, Obama has his severe anti-war policies and runs around claiming that we can not possibly win in Iraq and we should just leave. He has this view even though he hasn't talked to General Petraeus or any of the other advisors. He is simply reciting age old 'progressive' talking points. And I bet you $10 that as soon as he does, he is going to come back from Iraq with a totally different plan.

And conservatives do know what they are talking about? At this point Obama can't go back on any of his clearly stated promises or his saint-like, overblown reputation will go down the drain.

Just because I am a conservative, does not mean I automatically believe what any conservative says. As a matter of fact I can't stand Bill O'reilly and most other conservative hosts.

I addressed who I disagree with strongly earlier.

 

[samdaballer]

Thousands of deaths over oil?

Seriously?

The oil in Iraq was put into a trust to be given to the Iraqi people as soon as they have a stable government.

false, read crimson king's post followed by mine a few pages back.

The US is not getting a single drop of oil out of Iraq because of this 'war'.

this is EXTREMELY false, the first people into Iraq were U.S. oil companies.

Besides, oil is a great reason to go to war.

tell that to the wives of dead husbands and the thousands more psychologically and physically crippled due to war.

Nevertheless, oil is not why we are in Iraq.

this is a very ignorant statement, you just told me why oil is so important to every aspect of life and now tell me that's not why we're at war?

as far as crooked politicians... Sure, there are some crooked politicians, but that is a very small minority.

it's the other way around most of them are crooked, and if you beg to differ fine, the two biggest positions of power president and vp are crooked.

hate that democrats control the congress

this is so incorrect, that's why back in the day when Bush was elected the majority voted for many of his bills. His approval rating is so low because our economy is garbage right now
our U.S. debt is at 9.5 TRILLION. when we had clinton we had a surplus.

now, when everybody is whining about how bad it is, we are actually still seeing growth. Slight growth, but it is growing. As long as the liberals don't come up with another 'new deal' we should be out of this slow down in no time.

How do you have the audacity to even say this. On average our debt increase 1.72 Billion dollars a day, how is this in any way growth to our economy? It also seems that you're skewed perspective is due to your predilection towards conservatives

 

[Peeze]

Debt? What country doesn't have debt?

Venezuala http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2338 ...for the most part.

Patriotism has become a form of worship. America is the all powerful deity, who cant do wrong and people are expected to do whatever it says and turn a blind eye to its faults. Im not proud of this country. I'm happy about the freedoms I am afforded and i pay my taxes to live here and obey the laws, but i have no feelings or obligations towards america.

 

[Kur]

false, read crimson king's post followed by mine a few pages back.

No it isn't false. The oil is in a trust to be given to the Iraqis.

this is EXTREMELY false, the first people into Iraq were U.S. oil companies.

No this isn't false either. Halliburton is more than just an oil company. There main objective in Iraq is to build and run the military bases we are using and the bases the Iraqi army will use. Yes they are also building oil drills, pipeline, and all that stuff, but that is also for the Iraqi people. All that equipment is going to be given to Iraq so they can fund their economy with their own oil.

tell that to the wives of dead husbands and the thousands more psychologically and physically crippled due to war.

Find me some widows and I will tell them. Soldiers are soldiers. They know full well what they are getting into when they join the ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY. And how would those same widows and crippled people feel if we did have the oil needed to make their clothes, prosthetic limbs, medication, transportation, energy, food, and basically everything we as a people need to survive. If the US was cut off from oil, a woman is going to be in a much worse position that from losing a husband.

this is a very ignorant statement, you just told me why oil is so important to every aspect of life and now tell me that's not why we're at war?

Just because oil is important, does not mean all war is because of it. We were not at a point in 2001 where we needed to invade a country for oil. We aren't even at a point now where we need to invade a country for oil. And if we have access to Iraqs oil, why aren't we getting any of it? Why is the US paying full price for a barrel of oil if we can just get it for free from Iraq?

it's the other way around most of them are crooked, and if you beg to differ fine, the two biggest positions of power president and vp are crooked.

Ok fine. All the politicians are crooked. Seriously, you watch too many movies. Show me some evidence. Show me some cold hard evidence that a majority of politicians are doing something illegal. And no conclusion jumping either. Saying "Cheney invests in Halliburton and Halliburton is in Iraq, so the war must be about oil!" is not evidence. It is nothing more than an accusation, speculation at best.

this is so incorrect, that's why back in the day when Bush was elected the majority voted for many of his bills. His approval rating is so low because our economy is garbage right now
our U.S. debt is at 9.5 TRILLION. when we had clinton we had a surplus.

It is not incorrect. Right now the congress has a 9% approval rating according to rassmussen poles and Bush has a 13% approval rating. The democrat controlled congress has a worse approval rating than Bush. And our economy is not garbage right now. Unemployment rates are statistically the same, the average family income has increased. Oil prices and a slumping housing market are basically the only things that are 'garbage' right now.

And we did not have a surplus when Clinton was in office. All Clinton did was cut funding to the military so he could claim he balanced the budget. He managed to pay a few million towards the debt but that is about it. We still had a multi-trillion dollar deficit.

How do you have the audacity to even say this. On average our debt increase 1.72 Billion dollars a day, how is this in any way growth to our economy? It also seems that you're skewed perspective is due to your predilection towards conservatives

You are confusing the American economy with the national budget. The economy is the money traded by private citizens. The money you and I spend at Wal-Mart and the gas station is the economy. Our economy has been growing by a very small amount, for the last few years. We just came off a huge housing explosion where the economy was going gangbusters (during both of bush's terms) and like everything else, the economy ebbs and flows. When you have a high, you have to eventually have a low. And right now or low is still in the positive growth side. That is why we are not in a recession. A recession requires that the economy has 2 quarters of negative growth, and we simply have not had that.

The national budget is a whole different matter. It is the money the government takes in from taxes and spends on the military, government programs, payroll for government employees, and government contracts to private business. Clinton balanced the budget for a short period of time by severely reducing the size of our military.

These are not skewed predilections towards conservative views, these are the cold hard facts. I apply my conservative views to these facts when I make a decision on what I want done about the facts.

For example, I believe our economy will be just fine as long as the government doesn't try to step in and save everybody with stupid bail out programs, and just lowers taxes. I believe the national budget can be brought under control by eliminating most, if not all, of the liberal programs that are running, get rid of earmarks, get rid of pork barrel spending, and reduce taxes (which will help boost the economy without spending any money) It seems like only an absolute fool would raise taxes when the economy is slow (looking at Barrack and the rest of the liberals) For a good look at a really good idea to stimulate the economy AND balance the budget, take a look at McCains economic plans. They would work great if he gets elected and the congress actually lets him do it.

 

[Kur]

Commies, commies, commies.
Mushroom cloud, mushroom cloud, mushroom cloud.
The noble, regal, sacred spread of democracy!

lol, I just saw this.

What is this 1955? Commies commies commies? Nobody is scaring anybody by talking about commies. Though there really isn't much talk of commies anyway. The only time anybody mentions cuba is to wonder if Fidel Castro is dead or not. And the only other real 'commie' nation is China, which seems to be doing well making toxic toys, restricting internet searches, and shutting down factories so they can clean up the air for the olympics. Hardly something to be afraid of. Sad yes, but not scary.

Mushroom cloud?

It is the conservatives showing that the missiles Iran launched were mostly faked. Conservatives are quelling fears, not propagating them.

The spread of democracy?

Not sure what to be afraid of there. Sounds like a good thing to me.



If you really want to know who is spreading fear, take a look at the liberals.

The liberals keep telling us we are one step away from another great depression. Conservatives are saying we are in a slight slow down.

The libs say we are all going to fry to death because of global warming. The conservatives are saying there is no such thing.

The libs are saying we will have $200 a barrel oil in the near future. The conservatives say that is impossible because the market wouldn't support it.

The libs say we are losing the war in Iraq and we should just leave. The conservatives say we are winning the war and should finish what we started.

The libs say our beef farms are choking the environment with methane from cow farts and we are all going to die unless we stop eating meat. The conservatives are too busy eating a thick porterhouse to say much.

So who was it again spreading fear?

 

[znintendotaku]

My friend, I amen you.

agreed

10agreements

 

[samdaballer]

No it isn't false. The oil is in a trust to be given to the Iraqis.

Proof, like you always say.

this isn't false either. Halliburton is more than just an oil company. There main objective in Iraq is to build and run the military bases we are using and the bases the Iraqi army will use. Yes they are also building oil drills, pipeline, and all that stuff, but that is also for the Iraqi people. All that equipment is going to be given to Iraq so they can fund their economy with their own oil.

if that is what you believe, they are not doing their job there then:

Halliburton’s $2.5 billion no-bid "Restore Iraqi Oil" (RIO) contract was supposed to pay for itself as well as reconstruction of the entire country. Had the contract been fulfilled correctly, Iraq would be able to export much more oil from its northern oil fields. Instead, the oil fields are barely usable and access to international markets is severely limited. Halliburton’s work on the pipeline crossing the Tigris river at Al Fatah was a critical failure. Against the advice of its own experts, Halliburton tried to dig a tunnel through a geological fault zone. The underground terrain was a jumble of boulders, voids, cobblestones and gravel impossible for the kind of drilling Halliburton planned. "No driller in his right mind would have gone ahead", said Army geologist Robert Sanders when the military finally sent people to inspect the work.
Halliburton spent all of the $75.7 million allocated to the river crossing, including $100,000 a day while crews sat idle while drill bits were broken and equipment jammed. The US Inspector General estimated the money lost from oil exports at $5 million a day. After Halliburton had spent all the money allocated, the U.S. issued a new $66 million job order dedicated to the same task.(compliments of Wikipedia)


Halliburton's contracts in Iraq are expected to have generated more than $13 billion in revenue by the time they start to expire in 2006, now, how is that going towards Iraqi funds?

me some widows and I will tell them. Soldiers are soldiers. They know full well what they are getting into when they join the ALL VOLUNTEER MILITARY.

Ok, take a look at any army commercial. All of them exhibit young men and women in their early and mid-twenties. But what they also stress is your future, how the army can help you in a career you may have later on. And the fact of the matter is, most of the people that serve our country are doing so due to them desiring a promising future, but cannot afford college. Military academy gives you the opportunity to get a great education, but then you have to serve you country for a definite time period. That being said, most of these men and women want to get a good education, not go to war.

how would those same widows and crippled people feel if we did have the oil needed to make their clothes, prosthetic limbs, medication, transportation, energy, food, and basically everything we as a people need to survive. If the US was cut off from oil, a woman is going to be in a much worse position that from losing a husband

Are you serious? What almost every human finds most valuable to them is their family, not clothes or medication.

because oil is important, does not mean all war is because of it. We were not at a point in 2001 where we needed to invade a country for oil. We aren't even at a point now where we need to invade a country for oil.

It's always better to have more non-renewable natural resources, isn't it?

if we have access to Iraqs oil, why aren't we getting any of it? Why is the US paying full price for a barrel of oil if we can just get it for free from Iraq?

U.S. oil companies are getting oil from Iraq. But do you really think they're going to bring the price down to make less money?

fine. All the politicians are crooked.

I would say most, not all, but you pretty much got the point.

You are confusing the American economy with the national budget. The economy is the money traded by private citizens. The money you and I spend at Wal-Mart and the gas station is the economy.

This is part of the economy, what do you think the value of a dollar reflects? when our economy is in good shape, the dollar is worth more, when the economy is bad, the dollar is worth less (hence why we pay more for most products). Our economy on a whole, is the American economy, anything and everything from the national budget to national debt is part of the American economy. With that all of your statements about the economy are proven false, due to you not fully understanding the tangible concept of economy

 

[Kur]

Proof, like you always say.

Iraq has already begun shipping oil out of the country. They are making money on the oil already. The Iraqi government is asking for bidders from western countries to come in and run the oil fields for them. All of this while the US doesn't get a single drop of Iraqi oil for free or even a reduced price?

if that is what you believe, they are not doing their job there then:

Halliburton’s $2.5 billion no-bid "Restore Iraqi Oil" (RIO) contract was supposed to pay for itself as well as reconstruction of the entire country. Had the contract been fulfilled correctly, Iraq would be able to export much more oil from its northern oil fields. Instead, the oil fields are barely usable and access to international markets is severely limited. Halliburton’s work on the pipeline crossing the Tigris river at Al Fatah was a critical failure. Against the advice of its own experts, Halliburton tried to dig a tunnel through a geological fault zone. The underground terrain was a jumble of boulders, voids, cobblestones and gravel impossible for the kind of drilling Halliburton planned. "No driller in his right mind would have gone ahead", said Army geologist Robert Sanders when the military finally sent people to inspect the work.
Halliburton spent all of the $75.7 million allocated to the river crossing, including $100,000 a day while crews sat idle while drill bits were broken and equipment jammed. The US Inspector General estimated the money lost from oil exports at $5 million a day. After Halliburton had spent all the money allocated, the U.S. issued a new $66 million job order dedicated to the same task.(compliments of Wikipedia)

I never claimed they were doing a great job at everything they were doing. I was just pointing out that they aren't taking any oil from the Iraqi people.

Halliburton's contracts in Iraq are expected to have generated more than $13 billion in revenue by the time they start to expire in 2006, now, how is that going towards Iraqi funds?

Halliburton is still a company. It still needs to make a profit. Of course every little cent they make isn't going to go to Iraq.

Ok, take a look at any army commercial. All of them exhibit young men and women in their early and mid-twenties. But what they also stress is your future, how the army can help you in a career you may have later on. And the fact of the matter is, most of the people that serve our country are doing so due to them desiring a promising future, but cannot afford college. Military academy gives you the opportunity to get a great education, but then you have to serve you country for a definite time period. That being said, most of these men and women want to get a good education, not go to war.

Commercials? Seriously? Try talking to an actual soldier. Try asking a person who just enlisted, if they know the risks involved. Of course nobody wants to go to war, but they realize that is a very real risk involved with signing up.

Are you serious? What almost every human finds most valuable to them is their family, not clothes or medication.

And without the products made from oil, that widow would be losing a lot more of her family than just her husband. It is far more than just clothes or medicine. How do you think she rates food on her meter of important things? Without oil she isn't going to have any food, transportation, heat, air conditioning, or any electricity. A lack of any one of those things can be fatal depending on where you live, cut them all out, and unless you know how to survive out in the wilderness, you and your family are going to die. So yes, I am serious.

It's always better to have more non-renewable natural resources, isn't it?

Sure. Doesn't mean we were in a position to need it that badly.

U.S. oil companies are getting oil from Iraq. But do you really think they're going to bring the price down to make less money?

Here is where you show you don't know what you are talking about. Why don't you show me how oil companies are setting the price of oil? Because every couple years, congress pulls the oil companies in and investigates them for price gouging, and every time, they find nothing. Oil companies have nothing to do with the price of oil. The price of oil is set on a global free market. Right now the world uses 1 million barrels of oil a day, more than is produced. That is why the price is so high. The people investing in oil are looking to the future, if they see that there will be an oil shortage in the future, they can buy the oil at higher prices, knowing the prices will continue to go up. If the investors heard that the US was going to start drilling for oil, they would be much less willing to pay higher prices for oil when they know the supply is going to increase. That is why the only way for oil prices to come down, is for the US to start drilling.

I would say most, not all, but you pretty much got the point.

Whatever. You still haven't shown me anything to support this. Like I said, you watch too many movies.

This is part of the economy, what do you think the value of a dollar reflects? when our economy is in good shape, the dollar is worth more, when the economy is bad, the dollar is worth less (hence why we pay more for most products). Our economy on a whole, is the American economy, anything and everything from the national budget to national debt is part of the American economy. With that all of your statements about the economy are proven false, due to you not fully understanding the tangible concept of economy

Explain to me how the national budget or national debt is part of the economy? The national budget and debt are completely dependent on government policies and taxes. The economy is dependent on what people spend with the money they did not pay in taxes.

Just two years ago the American economy was going great. Homes were being sold left and right, car companies where selling out, people were making money like gangbusters by investing in stocks and such. All this while we had a huge national debt.

Of course the national budget can affect the economy. If the government decides to tax us more, that means there is less money available to the economy. If they give a tax break, that means there is more money available to the economy. But the two are not interlinked. They are not all 'the economy'. They are two separate things, which is why we can have a national debt of how ever many trillions of dollars, but still have a (slowly) growing economy.

And believe it or not, the rate of our economic growth is picking up. We are in a simple economic slowdown after a huge economic gain. The economy fluctuates, that is all that happened here.

When people stop buying flat screen HDTVs and cell phones, then you can start worrying.

 

[IWontGetOverTheDam]

Well, it's obvious. If you're not proud of America, you're a Commie. ....You're not a Commie, are you?

 

[M@v]

Im proud to be an American citizen. America is great country with many diverse people and cultures. However, I am not proud of our government. This country has hit the crapbin in the past couple years, and I havent seen our politicians do too much about it. An example everyone knows is that is takes me freaking $50-60 bucks to fill up my tank everytime(I have a small gas tank 12-14gallonish).

Also, im not a flip-flopper. I still think it was a good idea to go into Iraq. I don't agree with how it was handled. If we let the military do its job, we would of been out of there already. But no, the government had to pull a lyndon johnson and put the military on strings and control them. Look where we are now.

Not only that, the world hates us. I've talked to so many foreigners online that think Americans are a bunch of stupid idiots.(With GW as president I dont blame them).

Put it this way. We are in the tunnel. We seeing a light at the end (The election). If you ask me though, the light is a freight train coming right at us.

This crap is far from over.

 

[Kur]

Im proud to be an American citizen. America is great country with many diverse people and cultures. However, I am not proud of our government. This country has hit the crapbin in the past couple years, and I havent seen our politicians do too much about it. An example everyone knows is that is takes me freaking $50-60 bucks to fill up my tank everytime(I have a small gas tank 12-14gallonish).

Also, im not a flip-flopper. I still think it was a good idea to go into Iraq. I don't agree with how it was handled. If we let the military do its job, we would of been out of there already. But no, the government had to pull a lyndon johnson and put the military on strings and control them. Look where we are now.

Not only that, the world hates us. I've talked to so many foreigners online that think Americans are a bunch of stupid idiots.(With GW as president I dont blame them).

Put it this way. We are in the tunnel. We seeing a light at the end at the end(The election). If you ask me though, the light is a freight train coming right at us.

This crap is far from over.

Finally, somebody who gets it.

Even if you can't stand the government, the country is still great.


Though there are a couple problems here. The country has not hit 'the crapbin'. It is a simply economic slow down and we are still seeing growth, just not the expansive growth we got used to from 2002-2006. To speak metaphorically, the economy went from an A+ to a C- and everybody is running around acting like we are at an F.

And the government is finally starting to do something about the price of gas. GW Bush lifted the executive ban on off shore oil drilling. As a result the price of oil has fallen from $140+ a barrel to under $122 a barrel (last I heard this morning) and locally to me, the price of gas has gone from $4.08 to $3.89 a gallon. Nationally the price of gas has fallen something like 3 or 4 cents. And we aren't even close to drilling yet. If the congress lifts their ban on off shore drilling, you can expect the price of oil to drop below $100 a barrel in less than 2 weeks afterwards. Don't even ask about what will happen if we announce we are going to open up Alaska to drilling.

And I completely agree with you about how Iraq was handled. It was about to become another Vietnam. The military goes in and some hippies get their panties in a bunch and throw a fit, so the government tries to appease them by sending less troops than is needed, creating a disaster. Good thing John McCain had that 'Surge' idea that worked nearly flawlessly, that all the liberals and democrats apposed so strongly.

And I also agree that this election is a light at the end of the tunnel. I see Obama as the train heading our way to kill this country, and I see McCain as a continuation of the track in (mostly) the right direction.

 

[Aesir]

Well, it's obvious. If you're not proud of America, you're a Commie. ....You're not a Commie, are you?

I'm really hoping that's a joke. >_>;

I hate how when I offer legitimate criticism I'm seen as a hard left liberal, the fact that Liberal has a negative connotation is just silly to at best. I guess you can thank the neo-cons for that.


About Iraq, I find it funny that people support it for all the wrong reasons. Whats even funnier is Cheney back in the 90's talked about regime changes in Iraq, what happened when he became vice president 2 years later? Little things that like make me question the real motives behind Iraq.


Anyway OT:
I'm rather proud of our country however I don't exactly agree with the direction it's going atm, and Obama or McCain are just panderers and flatterers imo. We're probably screwed regardless who is elected. (one of them is winning, that's what happens when you have a pseudo-two party system.

However if you look back at the formation of our country I don't understand how you can't feel at least a little proud for your country. we're the oldest standing republic to date, one of the few "rea" secular nations blah blah. Sure we're in a slump right now but this isn't the first time Americas been in a slump we usually pull through cause we're all stubborn Capitalists.

 

[lonejedi]

I see no problem if you don't want to say the pledge, it's your choice, and you shouldn't be forced to recite something you don't believe. But whatIdo have a problem with is when those same people live double standards.

People are quick to attack this country, but if given the choice to live else where, most of them would remain here. I'm not saying any of you are those kind of people, but alot of these people have never been anywhere outside the U.S. In the U.S. we have so many opportunities, no matter how corrpupt some of our leaders may be. There's a reason why so many people are constantly coming to America from other countries.

Sure we have our faults, but if you go to almost any other government, they will have corrupt people in high places. It's just going to happen. Im sure if you moved to another country, that you thought was fine, after living there for a whlie, you'd come to realize that it's just the same as the U.S.

Sorry if this was already stated before, I had little time to read through the whole thread. (Sorry Blazed, I know you hate it when people do this )