Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[OddCrow]

Tier lists cannot be wrong, they are current trends of tournament winners, not scales of judging what character is better than the other. That is what people need to realize, most people just think they show what characters are better than others, soooo untrue. They just show the current trends of tournament winners, they cannot be wrong, but they can be changed.

 

[Negative Zero]

Double post, whoops.

 

[Negative Zero]

That dosn't explain anything, it just sounds like your unwilling to learn how to play yoshi because he's more difficult, and you want to play marth cause he's easier for you.

Stop comparing Smash Bros. terms of balance to other games, its completely diffrent

I just wanted to comment on this little bit. Yoshi isn't more difficult, he just sucks. I'm sorry, but Marth is a better character than Yoshi is, and no amount of effort will change that fact. Yes, if you try hard enough for long enough, you can play Yoshi well enough to beat some Marth players, but not any that are as good of a player as you are. This is because you have the clearly inferior character.

It's nice to think that, but Smash Bros really is fundamentally the same as other fighting games. The only difference of much magnitude is the fact that you kill by hitting people off the edge instead of depleting their health.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Tier lists cannot be wrong, they are current trends of tournament winners, not scales of judging what character is better than the other. That is what people need to realize, most people just think they show what characters are better than others, soooo untrue. They just show the current trends of tournament winners, they cannot be wrong, but they can be changed.

Then you need to make a different word for "who I think is better" because right now, people think thats what a tierlist is.

See? People are saying yoshi sucks, yet the tournament winners don't even exist yet to PROVE yoshi sucks by win statistics.

 

[Mooplet]

I just wanted to comment on this little bit. Yoshi isn't more difficult, he just sucks. I'm sorry, but Marth is a better character than Yoshi is, and no amount of effort will change that fact. Yes, if you try hard enough for long enough, you can play Yoshi well enough to beat some Marth players, but not any that are as good of a player as you are. This is because you have the clearly inferior character.

It's nice to think that, but Smash Bros really is fundamentally the same as other fighting games. The only difference of much magnitude is the fact that you kill by hitting people off the edge instead of depleting their health.

Negative Zero: You're missing the whole point.

Smash is about finding out new things about Yoshi that could possibly change how he is played and discovering that he is BETTER than Marth. In that case, let me fix what you said.

"Yes, if you try hard enough for long enough, you'll learn new things about Yoshi tactics and he will become adopted as a Marth counter, therefore changing around everyone's perception of the two characters."

Smash is different.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I just wanted to comment on this little bit. Yoshi isn't more difficult, he just sucks. I'm sorry, but Marth is a better character than Yoshi is, and no amount of effort will change that fact. Yes, if you try hard enough for long enough, you can play Yoshi well enough to beat some Marth players, but not any that are as good of a player as you are. This is because you have the clearly inferior character.

It's nice to think that, but Smash Bros really is fundamentally the same as other fighting games. The only difference of much magnitude is the fact that you kill by hitting people off the edge instead of depleting their health.

Actually stages matter, weight matters, projectile ability matters, reflect ability matters, speed, strength, and diffrent speeds , strengths, and direction of smash attacks matters...MOST Fighting games have more limited fields on what matters because they don't have the physics smash bros. has.


With all that matters, you telling me the characters worth exploring and the ones worth not exploring is ignorant.

 

[Lavos]

Maximo, it seems like you're just mad because you think characters who aren't very good are going to be ignored. Not making a tier list will do nothing to give all characters an equal chance! DK was a great character in Melee. If the tier list would get a final update, he probably would have been bumped up to middle tier. He was the least popular character in Melee. ICs were at the very top of middle tier! They were also extremely unpopular. Character popularity will NOT ever determine how fleshed out their metagame is!

People ARE going to "misuse" a tier list. All the complaining in the world won't stop them. And even if you had your way and a tier list wasn't made, they would just look at who the top pros were using and play as those characters! What are you going to do then? Complain that people put videos on the internet? Tier zombies will always exist. Period.

PS. Yoshi is obviously worse than Marth. Unless some magical Yoshi specific technique shows up, that's not going to change.

 

[OddCrow]

Okay, how about we use these as words/definitions from now on

Tiers: Trends of Tournament Winners (existence is non-debatable, they exist, deal)
Scales: Ranks characters from best to worst (existance is debated and presumed non-existent)

Can we all agree on that? I just don't like people talking about TIERS as if they are SCALES. They are NOT, they are TRENDS.

 

[Yuna]

I'll paraphrase what a wise Smasher once said:
Maximo, stop failing.

You're losing the argument. You truly are. Any outside observer can see that as you present 0 arguments except for the "But people will tierwhore (and thus neglect certain characters)"-argument, meanwhile ignoring all arguments that work against your standpoint.

Instead of at least trying to refute them, you troll and flame people with valid arguments in order to, in your mind at least, make them look less credible.

You seriously don't seem to grasp the concept of Tiers, competitive fighting and game balance. For one thing, you think Brawl Yoshi can be played well. No, he can't. The game won't let you. It's fact.

Seriously, present an argument other than the "But people will misuse it"-crap.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Okay, how about we use these as words/definitions from now on

Tiers: Trends of Tournament Winners (existence is non-debatable, they exist, deal)
Scales: Ranks characters from best to worst (existance is debated and presumed non-existent)

Can we all agree on that? I just don't like people talking about TIERS as if they are SCALES. They are NOT, they are TRENDS.

Yes. Buuuuut...I don't think most people will get that. Especcially seeing how there is a tier thread with no tournaments yet.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I'll paraphrase what a wise Smasher once said:
Maximo, stop failing.

You're losing the argument. You truly are. Any outside observer can see that as you present 0 arguments except for the "But people will tierwhore (and thus neglect certain characters"-argument, meanwhile ignoring all arguments that work against your standpoint.

Instead of at least trying to refute them, you troll and flame people with valid arguments in order to, in your mind at least, make them look less credible.

Seriously, present an argument other than the "But people will misuse it"-crap.

Why don't you go learn to draw better? Seriously your horrible! You should just quit.


<---that had as much value, as your statement.

My arguement is a list trying to determine who is better is STUPID. A DISCUSSION about it makes sense, but not a LIST. If a tierlist is just who wins in tournaments, then your arguement about yoshi sucking proves you don't know what you're talking about. Get your head out of your ***, if you don't like discussing somthing stay out of the thread.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Negative Zero: You're missing the whole point.

Smash is about finding out new things about Yoshi that could possibly change how he is played and discovering that he is BETTER than Marth. In that case, let me fix what you said.

"Yes, if you try hard enough for long enough, you'll learn new things about Yoshi tactics and he will become adopted as a Marth counter, therefore changing around everyone's perception of the two characters."

Smash is different.

Um no.
What negative Zero said is true.

An inferior character will never ever ever get over a superior character.

Yoshi will never be better than Fox in melee. Yoshi will never be better than Sonic/Marth/Sheik/Peach/Captain Falcon/metaknight in brawl.

find as many strategies as you like but the only way that yoshi will ever beat them in a skill on skill 1v1 game is if there are items to influence the outcome.
There is a difference between saying, this strategy can topple a top tier character and knowing and saying this strategy with this character WILL topple this top tier character.

Actually stages matter, weight matters, projectile ability matters, reflect ability matters, speed, strength, and diffrent speeds , strengths, and direction of smash attacks matters...MOST Fighting games have more limited fields on what matters because they don't have the physics smash bros. has.

Which is why you always choose a stage that is neutral as possible so that one character will be based on their base ability and not influenced by the stage itself.
Same thing with items etc.
Tiers exist and there is nothing that will change that because the only way they will not exist, is if there was only 1 character, only 1 stage. Basically the barebones minimum.

 

[Mooplet]

Lavos: I hate to say it, Maximo has much more of an idea of what he's talking about than you.

Magical Yoshi specific techniques showing up is why the tier lists will change.

You would call someone abusing tiers if they play Marth over DK in SSBM?
There's no such thing as misusing a tier list. Oh noes, there will be lots of toon link players?

Did you even play melee? Did you see anyone at the higher levels COMPLAINING about a matchup? Thats crazy. The only people who whined about melee tiers were HORRIBLE at the game.

And ICs were one of THE most popular characters, so you should get outside more often.

Oddcrow: I agree with you. We should use those.

 

[OddCrow]

~Tier Debates vs Tier War~

The tier war and a tier debate are too often confused. The tier war is a flame war plain and simple, where people are forced to take sides in online forums and are labeled pro-tier or anti-tier. The thing is, the conflict here is whether or not tiers exist. Well it's obvious that tiers exist, so those who deny the existence of tiers (the anti-tiers) are "n00bs" and the other side (pro-tiers) are "non-n00bs." The problem is that facts don't need to be defended, and anti-tiers don't all necessarily believe that tiers don't exist, so they are unjustly flamed, and retaliate.

Tier debates are focused on whether or not tiers affect gameplay as much as they are made out to by some people. Pro-tier people in tier debates believe that tiers are a more or less accurate estimation of which character will win in a given fight between two highly skilled players, and that there is no hope for some characters. The anti-tiers of tier debates believe that no matter where the character on the tier list, that character can be taken to just as high a level as even the highest-tiered character currently is. Since tiers are decided by high-level matches, then win/loss records of those matches should theoretically mimic the tier list is a good summation of what the pro-tier debater believes. Anti's on the other hand believe that since people haven't reached the highest level of efficiency possible (and probably never will in the game's life), there is still a chance that someone can get so good with a low-tier character that they can win consistently in high-level matches against higher-tiered characters.

This is a good example of what a pro-tier debater might think:

Without a good set of statistics, or a good combination of statistics, a character cannot be formidable. With this in mind, logically, a character's statistics can roughly determine his position on the list. The point? Some characters are better than others, and will ALWAYS remain higher or lower. How well characters can be played in comparison to each other nudges them in one direction or the other to give us our current tier list. However, the tier list will never shift so drastically that characters move more than one or two tiers. Modified wording from a post of helsing/Stilettotrap. Big thanks to him for letting me use this.
~More rambling~

The tier list for SSBM catches a lot of heat from players because SSBM is a game that attracts large numbers of non-hardcore gamers, who are unfamiliar with (or refuse to accept) the concept that some characters have been proven to be better than others. The belief in tiers comes naturally to most players of games such as Street Fighter because these players want every edge they can get. A much larger portion of SSBM players than Street Fighter players play just for fun. These people do not go to tournaments and may see tiers as a way of degrading their character choice. However, the tier list for SSBM (as with other games) is just a list to help players choose a character for tournament-level competition.

If two people in a tourney are playing Marth and Mr. Game&Watch, the person choosing Marth is the safer bet to win. Though if this match is the finals, you know that the Mr. Game&Watch is good, and it becomes harder to decide who will take the gold. This is because skill is more dominant than tiers. It won't matter who you play, you'll win against someone if you have better mind games.

CPUs do not do many of the strategies that justify a character's position on the tier list, thus defeating any number of CPU challenges will not give someone authority to decide which characters are good or not. Until someone proves himself in a tournament or against a tournament vet, their word isn't as good as someone who knows the best strategies. Hypothetical or extraneous situations don't change the tier list, either. If a tournament doesn't play it, then the tier list doesn't need to apply to it!

If a person is going to a tournament, then that person should tip the scales in their favor wherever they can. This might mean choosing the highest-tiered character they can play well. This does not make them "dishonorable" because they might have put a lot of hard work into perfecting their game with that character.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Okay, that was on my brothers faq on his old site, if you (anyone) reads that and still wants to argue then I've lost all faith in humanity

 

[Yuna]

Yes. Buuuuut...I don't think most people will get that. Especcially seeing how there is a tier thread with no tournaments yet.

And?! So what if a bunch of idiots won't get something even when it's presented to them in short and concise bullet points ("Tier lists are/aren't...")?!

Why should the world be shaped after what idiots think/do/to prevent idiots from misinterpreting/misuse things?! Really, your argument centers around the fact that if a Tier List is creating, some idiots are going to misunderstand it and thus stupidity will be born. Guess what, the world is not governed by stupidity.

The Official Tier Discussion thread is just that, a thread to discuss the tier list. No tier list will be made in it (that's what the SBR is for). Or should we not allow discussion of tiers at all because some idiots might misinterpret it? Maximo, stop failing and flaming for no good reason.

At least when I flame, I present valid arguments for why my "opponents" are failing.

 

[TheKingofDes]

i don't care if people follow tiers i just don't, just let them classify characters however they want just play with your best character no matter if its Marth or Captain Falcon

 

[MaximoSmasher]

~Tier Debates vs Tier War~

The tier war and a tier debate are too often confused. The tier war is a flame war plain and simple, where people are forced to take sides in online forums and are labeled pro-tier or anti-tier. The thing is, the conflict here is whether or not tiers exist. Well it's obvious that tiers exist, so those who deny the existence of tiers (the anti-tiers) are "n00bs" and the other side (pro-tiers) are "non-n00bs." The problem is that facts don't need to be defended, and anti-tiers don't all necessarily believe that tiers don't exist, so they are unjustly flamed, and retaliate.

Tier debates are focused on whether or not tiers affect gameplay as much as they are made out to by some people. Pro-tier people in tier debates believe that tiers are a more or less accurate estimation of which character will win in a given fight between two highly skilled players, and that there is no hope for some characters. The anti-tiers of tier debates believe that no matter where the character on the tier list, that character can be taken to just as high a level as even the highest-tiered character currently is. Since tiers are decided by high-level matches, then win/loss records of those matches should theoretically mimic the tier list is a good summation of what the pro-tier debater believes. Anti's on the other hand believe that since people haven't reached the highest level of efficiency possible (and probably never will in the game's life), there is still a chance that someone can get so good with a low-tier character that they can win consistently in high-level matches against higher-tiered characters.

This is a good example of what a pro-tier debater might think:

Without a good set of statistics, or a good combination of statistics, a character cannot be formidable. With this in mind, logically, a character's statistics can roughly determine his position on the list. The point? Some characters are better than others, and will ALWAYS remain higher or lower. How well characters can be played in comparison to each other nudges them in one direction or the other to give us our current tier list. However, the tier list will never shift so drastically that characters move more than one or two tiers. Modified wording from a post of helsing/Stilettotrap. Big thanks to him for letting me use this.
~More rambling~

The tier list for SSBM catches a lot of heat from players because SSBM is a game that attracts large numbers of non-hardcore gamers, who are unfamiliar with (or refuse to accept) the concept that some characters have been proven to be better than others. The belief in tiers comes naturally to most players of games such as Street Fighter because these players want every edge they can get. A much larger portion of SSBM players than Street Fighter players play just for fun. These people do not go to tournaments and may see tiers as a way of degrading their character choice. However, the tier list for SSBM (as with other games) is just a list to help players choose a character for tournament-level competition.

If two people in a tourney are playing Marth and Mr. Game&Watch, the person choosing Marth is the safer bet to win. Though if this match is the finals, you know that the Mr. Game&Watch is good, and it becomes harder to decide who will take the gold. This is because skill is more dominant than tiers. It won't matter who you play, you'll win against someone if you have better mind games.

CPUs do not do many of the strategies that justify a character's position on the tier list, thus defeating any number of CPU challenges will not give someone authority to decide which characters are good or not. Until someone proves himself in a tournament or against a tournament vet, their word isn't as good as someone who knows the best strategies. Hypothetical or extraneous situations don't change the tier list, either. If a tournament doesn't play it, then the tier list doesn't need to apply to it!

If a person is going to a tournament, then that person should tip the scales in their favor wherever they can. This might mean choosing the highest-tiered character they can play well. This does not make them "dishonorable" because they might have put a lot of hard work into perfecting their game with that character.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Okay, that was on my brothers faq on his old site, if you (anyone) reads that and still wants to argue then I've lost all faith in humanity

<--Yuna take lessons from this guy.


Still, since the tierlist is going to be displayed on this board, shouldn't we do everything we can to prevent it from spilling into casual play? I'm 100% against seeing this

MY TIERLIST

MARTH
FOX

NESS
BLAHBLAHBLAH

people need to stop presenting those, all over the forums. They are unfounded and misguided, they also give everyone else the wrong idea.

 

[Mama]

Just like you are wrong about this discussion.


Then get out of the thread.

They arn't necessary, people will flesh out the game without them.
If you think people will flesh out low and top tiers, and the tier list will often be wrong...WHAT'S THE POINT?!? Even when you think you've worked everything out you probably havn't...Those of you who think characters suck, this early, are blithering idiots.


So we make a tierlist...and its up to a few people to pick up the slack in the characters that are deemed unfit, while everyone else tries to win with top tier? If you were REAL competitive gamers, YOU'D be checking out every character for what works, tierlist be ****ed. Not to mention, if you were really competitive, why on earth would you tell other people what you think will win a game?


Then whats the point of a tierlist, if all you keep blabbing about is perfecting a few characters, if you think that people will do it anyway? ...More so than with a tierlist.


But if someone figures out how to play ganondorf better than the guys playing toonlink
you have to change the tierlist....and you're going to keep doing that for years and years...essentially your list is mostly wrong, and you have to slowly update it, for the few people willing to play other characters.



How do you even know they are worth exploring, more than other characters?


That dosn't explain anything, it just sounds like your unwilling to learn how to play yoshi because he's more difficult, and you want to play marth cause he's easier for you.

Stop comparing Smash Bros. terms of balance to other games, its completely diffrent

You sound like you're taking the tier lists as some kind of personal attack. Why do you find it so offensive that people see Marth as good and Yoshi as garbage right now? You don't understand tiers at all it seems. They're necessary because people like to know where a character stands in the metagame. They're necessary so other people can be tier whores. They're necessary to spark motivation among people who want to further the meta game of a character. They're necessary because, as human beings, we rate things all the time on scales and values. They're necessary because some characters are greater than others at the current metagame and people like to know this.

What they aren't is always perfect. You need to understand that. You need to get it through your head that just because something is incorrect at times does not make it unnecessary. I'm sure you've been wrong before. Did your mother attempt to kill you for making a mistake? Of course not. Shunning something for being sometimes in correct is idiotic. When people play fighting games they play to win. They like to know how their character stands among the other characters. In order to do that they need to know if their character is ranked high. If they see that their character is not ranked highly on the tiers but they feel that he could be then thats motivation. Thats when you see someone learning the play style of a character and then thinking outside the box. Thats when you see people doing things differently and in an unorthodox manner. Thats when you see Falco go from garbage to greatness because somebody thought he didn't deserve his spot on the tier list.

As Yuna said, right out the gate it is apparent which characters seem better than others and which characters seem not so great. You say that a real competitive player would use every character. Thats easier said than done. It takes time to learn a character. Do you honestly expect someone to stop playing Toon Link and go and mess around with Yoshi? Why waste time when you know you're better with Toon Link? You have to think about this and understand what it means to play to win. When a person is satisfied with where they stand, thats when they decide to experiment. But right now, nobody knows everything about any character so you can't expect to see every single pro playing every single character. Thats just ridiculously unrealistic.

Does that mean nobody is playing with the seemingly bad characters? No. I've got Ganondorf in my rotation because I'm hoping to get better with him. But right now he's what you'd call a fixer upper. Something that will take a lot of time and training. And if Ganondorf just so happens to be great and starts out placing tournament favorites like Toon Link, Marth, and Olimar then things will be reassessed and he'll be reevaluated.

Does a constantly evolving Tier list mean that Tier List are superfluous? Hell no. They reflect the current knowledge of the players. People can't know everything. Thats why the tier list is wrong in some cases. Thats just the way it is. Expecting the list to be perfect is essentially asking us to know everything about the game. Which is simply not possible. Which is why the list will change over the years. Thats something people just understand about fighting games.
EDIT: Had to re do the quoatation...

 

[Yuna]

Lavos: I hate to say it, Maximo has much more of an idea of what he's talking about than you.

Funny. Everyone besides you seem to think he doesn't.

Magical Yoshi specific techniques showing up is why the tier lists will change.

"Why it will change." - You're assuming that there will be new techniques found. You obviously don't grasp the concept of tier lists. Tier lists are based on the current metagame, not on what we think or hope will be the future metagame.

Yuna: Yes, that's true, right now Yoshi is bad. But everyone thought that about some melee characters, no?

Because back then, the community was small, untechnical, generally n00bish and there were few people actively trying to explore the metagame. This was years ago. We are now much older, much wiser and many more in numbers.

Stop bringing up how the Melee-community was back during the first couple of years! People actually learn from their mistakes and grow from them, contrary to popular belief.

And so what if we might find a lot of new stuff in the future? If we do, we'll just change the tierlist around! We can never be sure we know everything about every single character. If that's a requirement for writing a tier list, then such a list will never be able to exist (wouldn't Maximo like that?). It's like saying we should stop all "sciencing" right now since new discoveries often prove old ones wrong.

Maximo:
Why should the failure of a few (those who will "misunderstand"/"misuse" the tier list) be used as a collective punishment for the many?

Every single competitive fighting game in history has a tier list written out. And have they failed? Has there been tons of n00bs running around tierwhoring and misunderstanding what a tierlist is and whatnot? Have the tierlists ruined competitive play and completely halted all exploration of the metagames of the lower tiered characters?

No! Even the Bottom Tiers of Melee had their metagames fleshed out. They were just not very good.

Why is Brawl so special? Because you predict it will attract many more casual gamers? Probably, but still, Casual does not mean Stupid. Seriously, just because a lot of non-Competitive gamers are going to be drawn to the game doesn't mean a proportionally larger amount of people will misunderstand/misuse the tier list.

And even if they do, their misdeeds should not be used to punish the rest of us, compettiive or not!

 

[Yuna]

Mama, you should edit the post so that it's obvious you're quoting Maximo. It's a broken quote ATM.

 

[Negative Zero]

Why don't you go learn to draw better? Seriously your horrible! You should just quit.


<---that had as much value, as your statement.

My arguement is a list trying to determine who is better is STUPID. A DISCUSSION about it makes sense, but not a LIST. If a tierlist is just who wins in tournaments, then your arguement about yoshi sucking proves you don't know what you're talking about. Get your head out of your ***, if you don't like discussing somthing stay out of the thread.

Lists are made from the discussion. They don't just throw magnetic poetry at a fridge in the Back Room. They actively debate the characters, and since the arguments of who the best character is usually lines up with tournament results, it's set down in a list.

Lavos: I hate to say it, Maximo has much more of an idea of what he's talking about than you.

Magical Yoshi specific techniques showing up is why the tier lists will change.

You would call someone abusing tiers if they play Marth over DK in SSBM?
There's no such thing as misusing a tier list. Oh noes, there will be lots of toon link players?

Did you even play melee? Did you see anyone at the higher levels COMPLAINING about a matchup? Thats crazy. The only people who whined about melee tiers were HORRIBLE at the game.

And ICs were one of THE most popular characters, so you should get outside more often.

Oddcrow: I agree with you. We should use those.

Have you ever thought that those magical Yoshi techniques won't do anything? In Melee, it was discovered that Yoshi's double jump would go through Marth's forward air, which meant that the Yoshi could cancel his jump into a nair and nail Marth in the face. Since Marth relies so heavily on his forward air, this made Yoshi into a Marth counter. But did you see a sudden jump in Yoshi players beating Ken? Have you seen any Yoshi players beat Ken? No. What about any other pro Marths? Probably not. Because nobody DJCs that much, and even if they did, the Marth would just stop fairing and start using his many other moves with fantastic range and power. The tier list did not change.

The ICs were really not popular characters. I can think of three IC players off the top of my head. I could top a dozen Fox players. Hell, I can think of more Luigi players than Ice Climber players. Perhaps you should stay inside more.

Ignoring the non-sequitur.

 

[Mooplet]

Wow, in that case Yuna, take all new discoveries, put them in a big box, and bury them.

I agree that there are good characters and bad, but it's not set in stone. Far from it.

I was trying to explain to Lavos that tier lists are fluid, and that being a tier ***** means absolutely nothing.

And @ the melee reference... the brawl community is noobish, and NO ONE is wise- it just takes sheer hours played and years to find these things out. It's ignorant to say that come characters are KNOWN to be bad as of now.

 

[Mooplet]

Have you ever thought that those magical Yoshi techniques won't do anything? In Melee, it was discovered that Yoshi's double jump would go through Marth's forward air, which meant that the Yoshi could cancel his jump into a nair and nail Marth in the face. Since Marth relies so heavily on his forward air, this made Yoshi into a Marth counter. But did you see a sudden jump in Yoshi players beating Ken? Have you seen any Yoshi players beat Ken? No. What about any other pro Marths? Probably not. Because nobody DJCs that much, and even if they did, the Marth would just stop fairing and start using his many other moves with fantastic range and power. The tier list did not change.

The ICs were really not popular characters. I can think of three IC players off the top of my head. I could top a dozen Fox players. Hell, I can think of more Luigi players than Ice Climber players. Perhaps you should stay inside more.

Ignoring the non-sequitur.

LMAOOO

Negative, why would you TRY to bring up Yoshi + Marth in melee? I said in brawl. It was an example.

My point was that Yuna said Yoshi was worse than Marth, but he could be better if something groundbreaking was discovered.

And Yoshi was never considered a Marth counter.

And when i say ICs was popular i dont mean among ALL PRO PLAYERS- i just mean based on the tournaments i attended, people used ICs a lot. Common shiek counter.

I wasn't trying to start a Melee discussion, just give examples of how a brawl tier list can be fluid. But now that you're into it, you know nothing about characters in that game either.

 

[Negative Zero]

Of course tier lists are fluid. But only so much. It seems highly unlikely that any technique will appear that gives Yoshi the ability to negate Marth's superior damage potential, killing power, speed, and range. If it happens, I'll agree that I was wrong, but I don't see it happening.

And if you're so certain that I know nothing about Melee's characters, feel free to support your argument. I'm all ears here.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

You sound like you're taking the tier lists as some kind of personal attack. Why do you find it so offensive that people see Marth as good and Yoshi as garbage right now? You don't understand tiers at all it seems. They're necessary because people like to know where a character stands in the metagame. They're necessary so other people can be tier whores. They're necessary to spark motivation among people who want to further the meta game of a character. They're necessary because, as human beings, we rate things all the time on scales and values. They're necessary because some characters are greater than others at the current metagame and people like to know this.

Its not a personal attack on me, it just breeds stupidity the way its presented. I don't believe in making a list, then calling people tierwhores for using it...I believe in taking responsibity how information is presented. A tierlist is not neccessary, but it does create two things, discussion about the characters in the list and why they are where they are ( good ) and elitism ( bad )...I'd be okay with a tierlist if you could just keep people from being so stupid about it thinking a tierlist for brawl = fact.

What they aren't is always perfect. You need to understand that. You need to get it through your head that just because something is incorrect at times does not make it unnecessary. I'm sure you've been wrong before. Did your mother attempt to kill you for making a mistake? Of course not. Shunning something for being sometimes in correct is idiotic. When people play fighting games they play to win. They like to know how their character stands among the other characters. In order to do that they need to know if their character is ranked high. If they see that their character is not ranked highly on the tiers but they feel that he could be then thats motivation. Thats when you see someone learning the play style of a character and then thinking outside the box. Thats when you see people doing things differently and in an unorthodox manner. Thats when you see Falco go from garbage to greatness because somebody thought he didn't deserve his spot on the tier list.

Its not that it isn't perfect, the problem is the way its presented AND talked about tells everyone ELSE its perfect. Get it through your head, its not the list i have a problem with, its your ******** community. Don't you see that Falco contidicts everything else you say about tierlists? You tell me its for people who want to win, you tell me its for people to spend more time evolving metagame for characters that matter....Well...FALCO. There you have it.

As Yuna said, right out the gate it is apparent which characters seem better than others and which characters seem not so great. You say that a real competitive player would use every character. Thats easier said than done. It takes time to learn a character. Do you honestly expect someone to stop playing Toon Link and go and mess around with Yoshi? Why waste time when you know you're better with Toon Link? You have to think about this and understand what it means to play to win. When a person is satisfied with where they stand, thats when they decide to experiment. But right now, nobody knows everything about any character so you can't expect to see every single pro playing every single character. Thats just ridiculously unrealistic.

Why not just pick characters you like, because you LIKE them...LEARN them, and decide if they are worth continuing....its like you have no respect for the art or history of each character, you just treat them as grey little blobs with math equations locked inside. Maybe my problem is I'm an artist, and I actually have respect for things like that. While competitve gaming probably views it as trite...after all there is a game to be won, so lets WIN IT. Don't play every character, play a handful and make some friends to play with. The end.

Does a constantly evolving Tier list mean that Tier List are superfluous? Hell no. They reflect the current knowledge of the players. People can't know everything. Thats why the tier list is wrong in some cases. Thats just the way it is. Expecting the list to be perfect is essentially asking us to know everything about the game. Which is simply not possible. Which is why the list will change over the years. Thats something people just understand about fighting games.

If you present them as fact, it makes you a *******. Thats why ethier

A. A tierlist is simply statistics of who wins in a tournament.

or

B. A tierlist is a evolving discussion of who you THINK has the advantage, not who actually has one.

Maximo:
Why should the failure of a few (those who will "misunderstand"/"misuse" the tier list) be used as a collective punishment for the many?

You can't just have whatever you want and take no reponsiblity for it,there are reprecussions. You can have what you want if you do it right. This forum has spawned, many, many misgivings, and morons....Take responsiblity for it as a community and do things with caution.

Every single competitive fighting game in history has a tier list written out. And have they failed? Has there been tons of n00bs running around tierwhoring and misunderstanding what a tierlist is and whatnot? Have the tierlists ruined competitive play and completely halted all exploration of the metagames of the lower tiered characters?

And you think its okay to breed noobs and tierwhores? instead of ignoring it, try using your head to preemptive it before it happens to Brawl. A foundation is the most important part of a building, even in the community so PAY ATTENTION TO IT....and stop writing off people as noobs, scrubs, casuals, tournament players.

No! Even the Bottom Tiers of Melee had their metagames fleshed out. They were just not very good.

I'm sure the limitation of number of players, items, stages...and the addition of glitches = Melee metagame. Don't blame the developer because you changed the game. ( im not saying you should play all items all stages all players, but realize that has alot to do with the characters you write off as bad )

Why is Brawl so special? Because you predict it will attract many more casual gamers? Probably, but still, Casual does not mean Stupid. Seriously, just because a lot of non-Competitive gamers are going to be drawn to the game doesn't mean a proportionally larger amount of people will misunderstand/misuse the tier list.

I'm not talking about casuals. Stop labeling everything...I'm talking about imperssionable people, and kids....Alot of kids are going to grow up using these forums, try not to help them grow into miserable ****s who place all values on winning.

And even if they do, their misdeeds should not be used to punish the rest of us, compettiive or not!

Community, everyone does their part. Stop breeding *******, then blame them for it.

 

[Yuna]

Wow, in that case Yuna, take all new discoveries, put them in a big box, and bury them.

What now?

I agree that there are good characters and bad, but it's not set in stone. Far from it.

It is set in stone... more specifically in the programming. Certain characters are good, others bad. They were programmed that way. The fact that we might have or might not have discovered their full potential doesn't mean they weren't programmed that way.

I was trying to explain to Lavos that tier lists are fluid, and that being a tier ***** means absolutely nothing.

Tier lists are fluid because we discover new things all the time.

And @ the melee reference... the brawl community is noobish, and NO ONE is wise- it just takes sheer hours played and years to find these things out. It's ignorant to say that come characters are KNOWN to be bad as of now.

No it isn't. Some characters are bad, from what we know insofar. We do not base our impressions of the metagame on imagined future discoveries because said discoveries might never come. After all, if we can only discuss things once it's been established after years of testing, why does this forum exist at all?

We can only discuss the game from what we know of it at the moment.

My point was that Yuna said Yoshi was worse than Marth, but he could be better if something groundbreaking was discovered.

Yes, but until then, if it ever happens, Yoshi will be considered Bottom Tier. If things change, then he'll move up in the tiers. If not, then he'll stay Bottom Tier. No potential can be found where no potential is to be found.

 

[Mooplet]

Yes, but until then, if it ever happens, Yoshi will be considered Bottom Tier. If things change, then he'll move up in the tiers. If not, then he'll stay Bottom Tier. No potential can be found where no potential is to be found.

Yuna, who are you to tell us what characters have no potential?

Game has been out for like a month.

 

[Yuna]

Yuna, who are you to tell us what characters have no potential?

Game has been out for like a month.

What part of "From what we know insofar" was too invisible for you to read?

From what we know insofar, Yoshi has little to no potential when compared to the rest of the cast, especially the perceived future Tops and Highs. From a competitive standpoint, he's got almost no potential. That's just the way it is.

It might change if we find out a bunch of new things that make him better (relatively speaking, in comparison to the rest of the cast). That is... if...

 

[Epok]

Actually Fox was always consider good, it was Falco that was said to be decent/garbage.
Link was high tier too.

Btw, sure, DK and IC have moved up because of Bum and Chu Dat...but like, these characters AREN'T POPULAR (Fact: DK is the least popular character in SmashBros history). Other low tier characters like Roy and Kirby were used more, giving people a better sense of how terrible they were. I can only name 2 notable players each who attended Melee tourneys with IC and DK (Chu dat, Trail, Bum, and Mexican).

Thats is a good point, like I said earlier "not all smash bros players are equal" I totally believe that. there has to be some one that is not as good. In brawl they might not be bad like is was in melee, but some one has to be worse than someone else. But I think what is important is that people should play who they wanna play because in the end that will help the meta game develop, therefor making the tier list more accurate. It almost seem necessary to have people that wanna play who ever despite the tiers. I think doing this helps the metagame evolve because al the characters are being played so easier to determine what characters are the best and not just assuming characters are bad by default because no one plays them.


Oh btw i just came up with an interesting topic for discussion. How many people have had casual conversations about smash saying things like "Pichu sucks", or "gannondorf is awesome"? wouldn't that be kinda like making a tier list in your own head?? People subconsciously do that in their head all the time whether casual or pro, because based on there experience(or data they have collected form playing that character), they determine whether they are good or bad even if in there own opinion. just a thought.

 

[Negative Zero]

Every character will be played. Seriously. Let's say Yoshi is bottom tier. That doesn't mean nobody will play him or find out anything new about him. I mean, Ice Climbers were a fairly low tier before their chaingrabs started to add up. But with Chu Dat and some other innovators, the Ice Climbers rose because of the sheer number of effective chaingrabs, combos, and general techs that were developed. In fact, I'd argue that more 'research' went into the Ice Climbers than into Fox. Or rather, more came out of IC research than from Fox. It's staggering just how deep people have delved into desynching, chaingrabs, Nanapults, Ice Block cancels, and the wobble*, while Fox had fewer techniques. However, Fox was still the superior character. All the depth of the ICs only got them up to High tier.

*Actually, Mooplet, I'll concede the point of the ICs' popularity. They never seemed popular at all to me, but considering all that we as a community know about them, they must have been pretty popular after all. Regardless of their tier.

 

[Mama]

Why don't you go learn to draw better? Seriously your horrible! You should just quit.


<---that had as much value, as your statement.

My arguement is a list trying to determine who is better is STUPID. A DISCUSSION about it makes sense, but not a LIST. If a tierlist is just who wins in tournaments, then your arguement about yoshi sucking proves you don't know what you're talking about. Get your head out of your ***, if you don't like discussing somthing stay out of the thread.

My other response was delayed because I was disconnected for a while and had to refresh everything just now so this may be a double post.

What the hell do you think tier lists are exactly? You think that the winner of the most tournaments is just put on the top tier simply because of that?

WRONG

They are the products of discussions, debates, and examples. They take a winner and analyze why, who, and how. Tons of data goes into the lists. And from what is known the tier lists are a result. How the hell do you expect them to keep track of these discussions? People write things down. I don't know about you but I like to organize my things. So in a discussion if someone says they think that X is good because of X reason and come out with X examples it gets taken into consideration. Then they judge X in comparison to Y and what is known about Y. After they go through everything KNOWN, they organize it. This organization is called a tier list.

Right now Yoshi sucks. Its yet to be proven wrong. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Just because theres no evidence of Yoshi being better than he is is not evidence of him being weak. Its simply the fact there IS evidence of him not being better than he is. This evidence is of course in complete as nobody knows everything. When more is learned things may change but right now knowledge is limited. You need to understand this. Just because characters are so different doesn't make them immune to tiers. It is because they are different that tiers exist.

 

[Mama]

Its not a personal attack on me, it just breeds stupidity the way its presented. I don't believe in making a list, then calling people tierwhores for using it...I believe in taking responsibity how information is presented. A tierlist is not neccessary, but it does create two things, discussion about the characters in the list and why they are where they are ( good ) and elitism ( bad )...I'd be okay with a tierlist if you could just keep people from being so stupid about it thinking a tierlist for brawl = fact.


Its not that it isn't perfect, the problem is the way its presented AND talked about tells everyone ELSE its perfect. Get it through your head, its not the list i have a problem with, its your ******** community. Don't you see that Falco contidicts everything else you say about tierlists? You tell me its for people who want to win, you tell me its for people to spend more time evolving metagame for characters that matter....Well...FALCO. There you have it.


Why not just pick characters you like, because you LIKE them...LEARN them, and decide if they are worth continuing....its like you have no respect for the art or history of each character, you just treat them as grey little blobs with math equations locked inside. Maybe my problem is I'm an artist, and I actually have respect for things like that. While competitve gaming probably views it as trite...after all there is a game to be won, so lets WIN IT. Don't play every character, play a handful and make some friends to play with. The end.


If you present them as fact, it makes you a *******. Thats why ethier

A. A tierlist is simply statistics of who wins in a tournament.

or

B. A tierlist is a evolving discussion of who you THINK has the advantage, not who actually has one.



You can't just have whatever you want and take no reponsiblity for it,there are reprecussions. You can have what you want if you do it right. This forum has spawned, many, many misgivings, and morons....Take responsiblity for it as a community and do things with caution.


And you think its okay to breed noobs and tierwhores? instead of ignoring it, try using your head to preemptive it before it happens to Brawl. A foundation is the most important part of a building, even in the community so PAY ATTENTION TO IT....and stop writing off people as noobs, scrubs, casuals, tournament players.

I'm sure the limitation of number of players, items, stages...and the addition of glitches = Melee metagame. Don't blame the developer because you changed the game. ( im not saying you should play all items all stages all players, but realize that has alot to do with the characters you write off as bad )


I'm not talking about casuals. Stop labeling everything...I'm talking about imperssionable people, and kids....Alot of kids are going to grow up using these forums, try not to help them grow into miserable ****s who place all values on winning.



Community, everyone does their part. Stop breeding *******, then blame them for it.

So bottom line is you're blaming the tier lists for breeding stupidity. Essentially, you're saying that because a person cannot decipher information correctly the information is at fault. Because someone did not take the time to fully understand a text book, the text book is to blame. Because esoteric information was discovered and read by someone it was not entirely intended for it is the informations fault that the receiver of said information took it out of context. I could go on and on but what you're basically saying is that its the tier lists fault that idiots do idiotic things.

I disagree. The tier lists are basically made for the competitive community. Nobody says they're fact. Nobody says they're absolute. Nobody says that they're unchanging flawless pieces of information. Rather than wasting your time arguing against the tier lists you should be explaining what a tier list is and what a tier list isn't to these people. Hell make a whole thread about it and have it stickied. Then when you have ignorant people posting about tiers we can direct them to the tier thread so they can learn what a tier list is.

And yes I say that tier lists are designed for those who want to win. To get a basic idea of where things stand in context. But I never said that they were made so people would not spend time on other characters. Its because most people play with characters they like (whether they be mains or secondaries) that situations like Falco pop up. No he does not contradict what I said. He reinforces the fact that tier lists can change and that people understand this. It reinforces the fact that people still play characters they like regardless of what the tier list says. It reinforces the fact that people play to win with characters they are comfortable with at tournaments but still take chances on characters that they enjoy. Thats what Falco stands for and he'll likely be the poster boy for both the anti and pro-tier debates.

Everybody picks characters they like. In extreme cases, people pick a character that they feel they can win with at tournaments. Outside the tournaments they play characters they like so they CAN learn them where they wont be punished for doing so. In this regard there are two sides to the tier viewers. On one side, the character a player may choose because of his tier position or ratings against certain characters and situations. On the other side you have the character a player picks regardless of position because they like the character. And you know what I AM an artist. I'm constantly drawing. On the side I like to lay out "comics" or storyboard because I like to tell stories probably more than I like to draw.

It is for that very reason that I understand how you feel about tier lists. A lot of characters are cool. If I had my way, all the characters I enjoyed would be high tier characters. Before, I mained Link. He is one of my favorite video game characters from my favorite series (non RPG series). But after a while I started struggling against a lot of my friends. My brother mained Fox because he loved Fox. Another friend mained Marth because he just liked his attitude. They also had alts. I decided I'd choose another character to main. I didn't pick Falco because another friend mained him and I wanted to be different. Not G&W because I thought I sucked with him. In the end I settled on Peach. Shortly after that, we discover Smashboards (about 3 years ago) and in doing so, advance techniques. In time my brothers skill shot up with Fox. He now outclassed my friend who played Marth. Likewise, my Peach became better and better. It was then that I discovered the tier list. And to my surprise Peach was actually pretty high up on the list. I wasn't surprised to see Fox and Marth were great though.

I understood what a tier list was immediately because of where I came from. It didn't affect my decision. Maybe if I had still been maining Link and found a way to beat my friends play styles would I have been displeased. I probably would have changed mains but I still wouldn't have gone straight for a high tier character. I would have started with characters I liked. Don't blame me because other people can't reason this way. Its not the Smash communities fault that people see a tier list. agree with the positions of some characters, and then base everything around it. Blame that person for having limited knowledge.

I chose Peach because

A) she was a girl. I like to draw girls and drawing Peach would be pretty fun to do especially if I added a spin of my own style onto her.
B) she wasn't used by anyone in my (now) crew and I saw it as a chance to be unique.

I didn't see her as a winning machine. Though a LOT of people do view characters that way. But its not really a bad thing. I became a Peach fan. And when I decided to pick up Ganondorf (again ignoring tiers) I realized he was a lot cooler than I thought he was in OoT and in the series over all. Through that I came to respect the backgrounds of the characters. Because the artistic road goes two ways.

This has gone pretty off topic, but on a side note, you're a pretty good artist. Drawing is something I respect. I don't give props to every guy who scribbles or traces on a piece of paper and posts it. I'll outly insult anyone (I'm just that way) but you're pretty good. I'll have to actually add some pics to my art profile on that site so I can back up my claims though lol.

 

[IceEmblem]

I think a overall tier list is a bad idea, but if you put them in sections it is, such as having a defence tier list, and a speed tier list, and so on.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I think a overall tier list is a bad idea, but if you put them in sections it is, such as having a defence tier list, and a speed tier list, and so on.

<--I guess i'm not the only one eh? A defense, speed, ect ect. would make ALOT more sense to SMASH BROS.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

So bottom line is you're blaming the tier lists for breeding stupidity. Essentially, you're saying that because a person cannot decipher information correctly the information is at fault. Because someone did not take the time to fully understand a text book, the text book is to blame. Because esoteric information was discovered and read by someone it was not entirely intended for it is the informations fault that the receiver of said information took it out of context. I could go on and on but what you're basically saying is that its the tier lists fault that idiots do idiotic things.

I just don't like how abusable tierlists are....For somthing that creates a minimal product, it seems to create alot more waste. Fine, you have a tierlist....but why not streamline it instead of repeating history?

I disagree. The tier lists are basically made for the competitive community. Nobody says they're fact. Nobody says they're absolute. Nobody says that they're unchanging flawless pieces of information. Rather than wasting your time arguing against the tier lists you should be explaining what a tier list is and what a tier list isn't to these people. Hell make a whole thread about it and have it stickied. Then when you have ignorant people posting about tiers we can direct them to the tier thread so they can learn what a tier list is.

It isn't only the competitive community that uses it. And, although I probably SHOULD make a topic as such, i'm to a close on argueing here....I'd rather be practicing my brawl game and drawing at this point....But hey it's been fun, thank you for the discussion

And yes I say that tier lists are designed for those who want to win. To get a basic idea of where things stand in context. But I never said that they were made so people would not spend time on other characters. Its because most people play with characters they like (whether they be mains or secondaries) that situations like Falco pop up. No he does not contradict what I said. He reinforces the fact that tier lists can change and that people understand this. It reinforces the fact that people still play characters they like regardless of what the tier list says. It reinforces the fact that people play to win with characters they are comfortable with at tournaments but still take chances on characters that they enjoy. Thats what Falco stands for and he'll likely be the poster boy for both the anti and pro-tier debates.

I don't think you need a tierlist to make people play less popular characters...I don't agree with that arguement. I can understand people wanting to win, but alot of people take it waaayyyy too seriously for my taste. Sure I'd like to win, but not at the cost of my humanity....Which is dramatic to say, I know...But you should see what happens to alot of people with the "WIN WIN WIIIINNN" mentality.

Everybody picks characters they like. In extreme cases, people pick a character that they feel they can win with at tournaments. Outside the tournaments they play characters they like so they CAN learn them where they wont be punished for doing so. In this regard there are two sides to the tier viewers. On one side, the character a player may choose because of his tier position or ratings against certain characters and situations. On the other side you have the character a player picks regardless of position because they like the character. And you know what I AM an artist. I'm constantly drawing. On the side I like to lay out "comics" or storyboard because I like to tell stories probably more than I like to draw.

I understand what value they have, I just think if you do it sloppy, you cause more damage than good....OH yeah? Well....I really prefer storytelling/comics to illustration myself.

It is for that very reason that I understand how you feel about tier lists. A lot of characters are cool. If I had my way, all the characters I enjoyed would be high tier characters. Before, I mained Link. He is one of my favorite video game characters from my favorite series (non RPG series). But after a while I started struggling against a lot of my friends. My brother mained Fox because he loved Fox. Another friend mained Marth because he just liked his attitude. They also had alts. I decided I'd choose another character to main. I didn't pick Falco because another friend mained him and I wanted to be different. Not G&W because I thought I sucked with him. In the end I settled on Peach. Shortly after that, we discover Smashboards (about 3 years ago) and in doing so, advance techniques. In time my brothers skill shot up with Fox. He now outclassed my friend who played Marth. Likewise, my Peach became better and better. It was then that I discovered the tier list. And to my surprise Peach was actually pretty high up on the list. I wasn't surprised to see Fox and Marth were great though.

Soooo now that brawls out you going to give Link another shot? I guess I was lucky to play Mother 3, Lucas is my favorite kind of hero.

I understood what a tier list was immediately because of where I came from. It didn't affect my decision. Maybe if I had still been maining Link and found a way to beat my friends play styles would I have been displeased. I probably would have changed mains but I still wouldn't have gone straight for a high tier character. I would have started with characters I liked. Don't blame me because other people can't reason this way. Its not the Smash communities fault that people see a tier list. agree with the positions of some characters, and then base everything around it. Blame that person for having limited knowledge.

I kind of ignored the tierlist as well for melee, but seeing people ignorantly flag their tierlists around really pisses me off. Its not somehing you should do without alot of studying and playing...but too many people spout them out, and brawl isn't even out yet. Hell I think tierlists came out BEFORE the game did. Uggghh...

I chose Peach because

A) she was a girl. I like to draw girls and drawing Peach would be pretty fun to do especially if I added a spin of my own style onto her.
B) she wasn't used by anyone in my (now) crew and I saw it as a chance to be unique.

I didn't see her as a winning machine. Though a LOT of people do view characters that way. But its not really a bad thing. I became a Peach fan. And when I decided to pick up Ganondorf (again ignoring tiers) I realized he was a lot cooler than I thought he was in OoT and in the series over all. Through that I came to respect the backgrounds of the characters. Because the artistic road goes two ways.

Well even if you picked your character because you thought you could win with them I REALLY wouldn't mind, it's people going "lol ganondorf sucks, lol ness sucks" I'm like "dude, you don't even know yet so STFU" So to that other guys question. No I do not engage in "i think this guy sucks" discussions. I try not to praise other characters ethier, instead I say "I have fun playing this character".

This has gone pretty off topic, but on a side note, you're a pretty good artist. Drawing is something I respect. I don't give props to every guy who scribbles or traces on a piece of paper and posts it. I'll outly insult anyone (I'm just that way) but you're pretty good. I'll have to actually add some pics to my art profile on that site so I can back up my claims though lol.

Thanks, I'll check out your stuff if ya show me ( I am really into storytelling! )

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I think if you WERE to make a tierlist it should be a graph of who is best to who is worst at what, ( IE. Lucas would score high on projectiles, lower on speed, ect, ect ) ...I think a list of people in a line, of who is better than who is not enough information, insulting to the game creators, basically tells you how to play the game that has multiple ways to play ( favoring only speedy characters ) and a sloppy presentation that just tells noobs what character to pick.

How does any of this make sense?

This has never been the objective of a tier list Maximo, nor has it ever been used as such by logical individuals. Where are you getting this rubbish? Is taking a game to new levels and cherishing it's gameplay through tournaments, and playing it for an immense period of time to make NEW strategies and NEW tiers, really insulting to the creator? Everyone knows that the tier list is not absolute, making you a rather shallow individual.

And of course there are details left out, that's for you to decide. You forget that a tier list is designed through a great combination of many things. Things you aren't considering.

And I have news for you: there's going to be the traditional tier list whether you like it or not, and regardless of how much you whine. It's been effecient and it will be used again - just as it has been. This is a game about winning, and professionals must do whatever it takes to win. If you're not a professional, and you don't care about winning, then you really have nothing to complain about.

If you want to win, play harder. No one is going to change the entire system because you suck too much, ala-every-other-game-out-there.

Speedy characters in Melee just are technically better. Why can't you get over it, and learn to counter that with other techniques? I've seen videos of a Melee DK win against a Fox handily, both pros at a tournament.

This thread is an absolute joke, and is a vent for scrubs who could never beat a Marth with their Bowser. Who can they blame but themself? The tier list. And hide it as some may, this thread IS against the tier list, in it's current entity and form, in many ways. Maximo denies this, disregarding the TITLE and TOPIC of the thread.

P.S. Correcting my spelling when you know very well what I meant to say, is a personal stab, and does not help your miserable argument, Maximo.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

How does any of this make sense?

This has never been the objective of a tier list Maximo, nor has it ever been used as such by logical individuals. Where are you getting this rubbish? Is taking a game to new levels and cherishing it's gameplay through tournaments, and playing it for an immense period of time to make NEW strategies and NEW tiers, really insulting to the creator? Everyone knows that the tier list is not absolute, making you a rather shallow individual.

And of course there are details left out, that's for you to decide. You forget that a tier list is designed through a great combination of many things. Things you aren't considering.

And I have news for you: there's going to be the traditional tier list whether you like it or not, and regardless of how much you whine. It's been effecient and it will be used again - just as it has been. This is a game about winning, and professionals must do whatever it takes to win. If you're not a professional, and you don't care about winning, then you really have nothing to complain about.

If you want to win, play harder. No one is going to change the entire system because you suck too much, ala-every-other-game-out-there.

Speedy characters in Melee just are technically better. Why can't you get over it, and learn to counter that with other techniques? I've seen videos of a Melee DK win against a Fox handily, both pros at a tournament.

This thread is an absolute joke, and is a vent for scrubs who could never beat a Marth with their Bowser. Who can they blame but themself? The tier list. And hide it as some may, this thread IS against the tier list, in it's current entity and form, in many ways. Maximo denies this, disregarding the TITLE and TOPIC of the thread.

P.S. Correcting my spelling when you know very well what I meant to say, is a personal stab, and does not help your miserable argument, Maximo.

You are a complete idiot. Please think about what you type before you type it.

This is the kind of assuming elitest wannabe moron that is bred around here. You guys should do somthing about it.

 

[Mama]

I just don't like how abusable tierlists are....For somthing that creates a minimal product, it seems to create alot more waste. Fine, you have a tierlist....but why not streamline it instead of repeating history?


It isn't only the competitive community that uses it. And, although I probably SHOULD make a topic as such, i'm to a close on argueing here....I'd rather be practicing my brawl game and drawing at this point....But hey it's been fun, thank you for the discussion

I don't think you need a tierlist to make people play less popular characters...I don't agree with that arguement. I can understand people wanting to win, but alot of people take it waaayyyy too seriously for my taste. Sure I'd like to win, but not at the cost of my humanity....Which is dramatic to say, I know...But you should see what happens to alot of people with the "WIN WIN WIIIINNN" mentality.


I understand what value they have, I just think if you do it sloppy, you cause more damage than good....OH yeah? Well....I really prefer storytelling/comics to illustration myself.


Soooo now that brawls out you going to give Link another shot? I guess I was lucky to play Mother 3, Lucas is my favorite kind of hero.


I kind of ignored the tierlist as well for melee, but seeing people ignorantly flag their tierlists around really pisses me off. Its not somehing you should do without alot of studying and playing...but too many people spout them out, and brawl isn't even out yet. Hell I think tierlists came out BEFORE the game did. Uggghh...


Well even if you picked your character because you thought you could win with them I REALLY wouldn't mind, it's people going "lol ganondorf sucks, lol ness sucks" I'm like "dude, you don't even know yet so STFU" So to that other guys question. No I do not engage in "i think this guy sucks" discussions. I try not to praise other characters ethier, instead I say "I have fun playing this character".



Thanks, I'll check out your stuff if ya show me ( I am really into storytelling! )

Yea I'm playing with Link again. And Toon Link. Its looking like Toon Link might end up like Peach for me in Melee though (I really liked WW and PH). I do see your point though. However I think that it can be remedied by better explanations on both sides. People who tell their friends about tiers should let them know what they are. Not completely perfect and based off trends. On the other side I think disclaimers or better explanations could help.

Also I understand what you mean when people just say a character sucks. You wont believe how many times I've played people at school (I graduated now though) or at friends houses that see me pick Peach and then say "Oh who's picking Peach? Peach sucks blah blah blah". Its more fun to prove them wrong then to dispute their claims.

I don't think that anyone can really say a character sucks with any real authority or certainty. I think at best we can say that right now a character sucks. Or the way we play X character sucks. Since everyone is a noob to what it takes to be good at Brawl nobody knows what it really takes to suck. But in the competitive community, people don't sit and wait around for everything to surface. The tier list is something that goes by the current trends of the community. Saying that Ganondorf or Yoshi sucks is really just saying that people who play with Ganondorf or Yoshi (in tournaments) suck. Its not really the fault of tiers since they're based on these people and these trends. But the way they are presented may cause a problem for our less informed members and thats something that can be fixed if people try.


As for tier format, I'm not sure if speed or defense tiers would work out. (but who knows, I'm no tier expert). But the other day I was thinking of assigning classes to characters. Like characters who are (currently) good for projectile spamming could be in a projectile class. Characters good at punishing mistakes could be in a punishment class etc. These "classes" could simply be written by the characters name on the tier list or something. Just an idea though.

 

[shizznitt]

Every fighting game will always have a tier list.

 

[Yuna]

You are a complete idiot. Please think about what you type before you type it.

This is the kind of assuming elitest wannabe moron that is bred around here. You guys should do somthing about it.

It's not elitism just because you happen to not qualify for something.

He's not insulting you for being a Casual player. He's insulting you for being an idiot.