Why A Tier List Is Not For Brawl!!

[Neoteric]

sorry to say something that everyone else has, but a game with any difference in characters HAS to have a tiers.

 

[bigcman]

The biggest problem I see with tier lists is that they are built to a specific set of rules. These rules only apply to certain tournament styles of play, so most people shouldn't be affected by them. Under different rules, the conditions may favor different characters, or minimize the differences between them. This makes tier lists irrelevant quite frequently for all situations other than specific tournament settings.

Obviously, people who play in tournaments care enough to create these lists because they believe it will help them win. Winning is viewed as more important than playing as a specific character. People who don't like tier lists see this as contradictory to the premise behind Smash Brothers. All characters, according to them, should be playable.

Tier lists also give the impression of two characters at opposite ends having a great deal of separation. However, these lists are entirely qualitative, and do not actually presume some exact level of separation between characters. Thus, it is entirely probable that characters in the mid, low, or even bottom tier lists will have minimal degrees of separation from those at the top. It would take some kind of extraordinary analysis of data to determine whether or not this is true. That said, only a loser would waste his or her time doing this.

In conclusion, tiers are irrelevant for most people playing. Some people think they are valuable, but should probably spend their time improving their skill rather than trying to optimize the character they choose. Finally, I would like to conclude with a PSA:

TR4Q!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsZlhe0gVAA

.Go to 2:00

 

[Mama]

The biggest problem I see with tier lists is that they are built to a specific set of rules. These rules only apply to certain tournament styles of play, so most people shouldn't be affected by them. Under different rules, the conditions may favor different characters, or minimize the differences between them. This makes tier lists irrelevant quite frequently for all situations other than specific tournament settings.

Obviously, people who play in tournaments care enough to create these lists because they believe it will help them win. Winning is viewed as more important than playing as a specific character. People who don't like tier lists see this as contradictory to the premise behind Smash Brothers. All characters, according to them, should be playable.

Tier lists also give the impression of two characters at opposite ends having a great deal of separation. However, these lists are entirely qualitative, and do not actually presume some exact level of separation between characters. Thus, it is entirely probable that characters in the mid, low, or even bottom tier lists will have minimal degrees of separation from those at the top. It would take some kind of extraordinary analysis of data to determine whether or not this is true. That said, only a loser would waste his or her time doing this.

In conclusion, tiers are irrelevant for most people playing. Some people think they are valuable, but should probably spend their time improving their skill rather than trying to optimize the character they choose. Finally, I would like to conclude with a PSA:

TR4Q!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsZlhe0gVAA

.Go to 2:00

Well you're right in some aspects. Tier lists are qualitative. But not with the rules set but the play style of the tournament scene. The Meta game. And the Meta game evolves through playing the game at a high level. Meaning, advancing your skill level, learning the physics/laws of the game and the mechanics. Not simply playing by a set of rules but playing the game by a set of trends. In Melee, in was common among casual players to simply roll everywhere, shield grab all the time, full jump, stand and shoot with Falco (the list goes on) but when people started upping their skill level they began finding better ways to do things. Wavedashing was better than rolling in most situations and short hopping and short hop lasering were leagues more useful than their lower level forms.

Because the Metgame evolved in that fashion the tier list reflected which characters were the best at it as well as many other standards. Another major influence on a spot in a tier list is the usability of a character. Some characters worked well against many other characters. Then you had characters that were useful against a few characters but were at a major disadvantage to others. The more diverse a character was the higher his/her place on the tier list. Thats why you had characters like Fox or Marth, who were great against the majority of the Melee roster, sitting at the top and characters like Ganondorf or the Ice CLimbers, who could both **** Fox, sitting much lower on the tier list.

Outside the tournament scene, these things are still apparent. If you take away the rules of the tournament scene you'd still have a viable tier roster. Playing on all stages doesn't really change the fact that Fox can beat Link easier than Link can beat Fox. Same goes for having more lives. If the play style was different, then you'd have different parameters to judge by when talking about the tier list.

The Play style for Brawl is barely off the ground so nobody can really say where a character stands yet until the trends begin to surface and the Metagame starts to set itself. The list itself may be irrelevant to those who don't play competitively but the fact that some characters have an advantage over others and other characters have few counter pick characters is prevalent no matter what level of play you're at. The tier list simply puts this in writing. Theres a lot of work put into judging who goes where on a tier list.

 

[Anarkex]

Do we need tiers? Nah. The game is much more balanced than any before it, and at this point every playable character has opportunity to be used well. Will we make tiers? Yes. Why? Everyone loves arbitrary lists.

I played relatively low-tier characters in Melee, and forcefully avoided playing high tier characters... Honestly, I'd prefer there be no tiers for the sake of my main (Lucario) not being ranked too high. It just doesn't feel like as awesome a win to me unless I'm the knife in the gunfight. Not to mention the last thing I want is to play nothing but Marths and Foxes like I had to in Melee.

These aren't good reasons why a tier list shouldn't be made, tho. There really aren't any. But off what I know of Brawl through playing it (not much) There aren't any good reasons why we need a tier list either. I'd rather leave the game as open-ended as possible, since one of my favorite things to do in Melee was talking to people from different groups about the game and hearing how much differently they played the game with their friends. But not everyone reads about tiers, so I guess it'll probably stay that way whether you make a tier list or not.

I insist on not making a point with this.

 

[shadydentist]

You would avoid playing a character just because it wins tournaments? Thats dumb. Whatever happened to playing characters you like?

There is no reason not to create a tier list. I'm interested myself in which characters will win more tournaments. Eventually, people will figure out which characters are better than others, and will naturally gravitate towards them. There is nothing wrong with this. Its fine to wish for a perfectly balanced cast, but the reality is that not all characters are created equal. Disagree with it? Then pick a low tier character and win tournaments. Thats the only way the tier list is going to change.

 

[Tujex]

A tier is meaningless because an extremely skilled Ganondorf player can destroy a Pit fighter.

Lol, this is so true. Ioro ***** my Pit with his Ganon.

Nobody else has been able to 3-stock my Pit besides him.

 

[OddCrow]

Tiers are trends of the current metagame and tournament winners.
If Jigglypuff starts dominating all tournaments and clearly pwns the competition, she moves up, if like, Ike, fails to place EVER in tournaments, then he's at the bottom. But if someone starts playing a pretty **** Ike, and starts dominating, people will emulate him, and he will move up. Tiers are trends. The reflect the basic "who's better in the game" question but have many other factors as well.

 

[RBinator]

The biggest problem I see with tier lists is that they are built to a specific set of rules. These rules only apply to certain tournament styles of play, so most people shouldn't be affected by them. Under different rules, the conditions may favor different characters, or minimize the differences between them. This makes tier lists irrelevant quite frequently for all situations other than specific tournament settings.

That's the whole point of a tier list, to only be about the current meta game played at tournaments. Their not meant for any other set of rules or skill levels, like casual play with all items on and staged allowed. How is it a problem when it doesn't go beyond what it's intended to do?

Obviously, people who play in tournaments care enough to create these lists because they believe it will help them win. Winning is viewed as more important than playing as a specific character. People who don't like tier lists see this as contradictory to the premise behind Smash Brothers. All characters, according to them, should be playable.

Simply looking at a tier list and picking a character near the top isn't gonna help you win unless you know how to play the character. Of course winning is important at a tournament, since that is the main focus. However, it is not the only focus. There will still be people who play who they want to play as, regardless of their place on the tier list. I didn't drop Doc as my main in Melee because he wasn't on top or even high on the tier list. I see various Link players competing in tournaments despite Link not being that high on the tier list. Not everyone stops playing as their favorite character(s) because of tiers.

Tier lists also give the impression of two characters at opposite ends having a great deal of separation. However, these lists are entirely qualitative, and do not actually presume some exact level of separation between characters. Thus, it is entirely probable that characters in the mid, low, or even bottom tier lists will have minimal degrees of separation from those at the top. It would take some kind of extraordinary analysis of data to determine whether or not this is true. That said, only a loser would waste his or her time doing this.

The tier list isn't meant to go into full details, that's why we also have match up charts. A character isn't automatic going to do better then everyone below them on the tier list, it's how they do overall. Why would someone be a loser for taking time to research how all the characters compete against each other? Is Mew2King a loser for the Melee knowledge that he came up with?

In conclusion, tiers are irrelevant for most people playing. Some people think they are valuable, but should probably spend their time improving their skill rather than trying to optimize the character they choose. Finally, I would like to conclude with a PSA:

That's the point, tiers shouldn't matter to most people because they don't compete at tournaments on the current meta game level. Most of the complains about tiers also come from these players and from the looks of it, I'll say you're one of them. What do you mean people shouldn't try to optimize the character they choose? How can you improve your skills without optimizing who you play as? Why shouldn't you optimize who you play as? For example, if you mained Peach and want to be good, why wouldn't you become good at float canceling? How is this optimizing statement you brought up even related to tiers?

TR4Q!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsZlhe0gVAA

.Go to 2:00

I'll thank you for the video and the ones I saw related to it. However, I don't see the point in that message. Plus, using the word queer as an insult looks rather unprofessional and immature to me, which would make it hard for me to take it seriously.

My replies are colored in the quoted text.

 

[ph15h]

There will always be tiers. Tiers are comparisons of items/characters/players/ vehicles as a whole. A tierlist is for Brawl, but it Might be less useful.

 

[Anarkex]

You would avoid playing a character just because it wins tournaments? Thats dumb. Whatever happened to playing characters you like?

I didn't start playing until pretty recently, and my friends were really into the tournament scene. Because of this, I saw them playing a lot of top-tier characters over and over again. As I picked up the game, those were the characters I just didn't like, so I didn't play them. A lot more goes into *liking* a character than just "ooh, I played Starfox". I picked the game up because of gameplay and grew into characters that gave me a shred of individuality in a room where everyone was Fox, Marth, or Sheik. Not going to say it was the best choice, but I learned the nuances of the game pretty quickly.

All that's kind of unrelated to tiers, so to keep things related...

Everyone! Tiers in Brawl! Pretty great, right? or maybe...not so much? LET'S INTERNET ARGUING!

 

[ThePlantiff]

I think tier lists are relevant for any fighting game. Since tournaments are based on the premise to win, tier lists says who has the highest chance of winning, within players of the same skill, this helps the competitive player.
What is bad though, are scrubs, who whine because they lost with their top-tier Fox against the low-tier Luigi, and start calling everything cheap. I main Marth in melee, but I mained him before I knew of tiers. My brother on melee mains Ness, Ice Climbers and Luigi, he kicks my *** all the time. Is it because tires don exist? no it's because I ****ing suck at the game, since the tier list is under the idea that players have the same skill.
It's OK to main anyone you like, since the tier list is pure theory on who has the highest chance of winning overall, it basically boils down to how skillful the player is.

 

[RBinator]

Everyone! Tiers in Brawl! Pretty great, right? or maybe...not so much? LET'S INTERNET ARGUING!

What's your point? The arguing is mostly because of scrubs who don't understand the tier list and decide to bash it. Pretty much any arguing I personally seen is due to misunderstandings. For some reason, many scrubs think tournament players are somehow ruining their style of play with tier lists and advanced techniques.

Note that I say scrubs, not casual players, since there is a difference, like how there is a difference between newbies and n00bs.

 

[rigapeen]

do they exist? yes.
do they matter? only so you can define the character set in low tier events : )

pretty obvious that olimar is top tier and metaknight is bottom

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Erm, you said tierlists were inherently bad, creating a tierlist is wrong, and essentially that there isn't any such thing as tiers.

Yuna called you on all those points.

Of course, your opinion is your own and you have a right to it, but not all opinions are equal.

Maybe you should actually read what I post instead of gagging on Yuna's ****?

 

[Mama]

What's your point? The arguing is mostly because of scrubs who don't understand the tier list and decide to bash it. Pretty much any arguing I personally seen is due to misunderstandings. For some reason, many scrubs think tournament players are somehow ruining their style of play with tier lists and advanced techniques.

Note that I say scrubs, not casual players, since there is a difference, like how there is a difference between newbies and n00bs.

He's right. Every single post against tiers was made by someone who didn't completely understand what tiers were for. I don't know why that is. When I was a newb and I saw the tier list I didn't get mad at the pro's about it. I understood what a tier was.

I'd post about the difference between scrubs and casuals but that in itself is a topic.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

He's right. Every single post against tiers was made by someone who didn't completely understand what tiers were for. I don't know why that is. When I was a newb and I saw the tier list I didn't get mad at the pro's about it. I understood what a tier was.

I'd post about the difference between scrubs and casuals but that in itself is a topic.

I get the jest of the tier list, my point of view is still valid no matter how high your horse is.

 

[Mama]

I get the jest of the tier list, my point of view is still valid no matter how high your horse is.

Actually I'm flying on a pegasus, you're riding on a pheasant. My horse is so high you could not touch it with it all the dope in the world.

Let it rain
David blane
build a boat
build a plane
ride a train
swing a cane

 

[MaximoSmasher]

Actually I'm flying on a pegasus, you're riding on a pheasant. My horse is so high you could not touch it with it all the dope in the world.

Let it rain
David blane
build a boat
build a plane
ride a train
swing a cane

You know...you could atleast tell a joke that was funny. You should work on that.

 

[Dan_X]

God Tier - Medic
High Tier - Soldier, Scout, Demo
Middle Tier - Heavy, Sniper
Low Tier - Spy, Engineer, Pyro

Tiers are based on the metagame. In TF2's case, Spy's, NG's, and Pyro's are rarely used. They are situational match ups only. Heavies and Snipers often see play, but very rarely do you see more than one of them on a team. Soldiers, scouts and demos make up most of a team, and medics are without a doubt the most vital class.

Brawl aside, as for Team Fortress 2, the Spy dominates. Period. A good Spy will ****, unconditionally. Trust me. I know. Spy is the hardest class to play, hands down. As such, he is the only class in the game that deserves a multiple page write-up (maybe 20pages?) on gamefaqs.com. I mean, for example, last I checked there wasn't a Soldier guide on the site. Right? I mean, It'd probably say "shoot at the feet!" Yeahh...
--oh yeah, and I wrote the Spy Guide on gamefaqs (which appears on a multitude of sites) btw... and yes I have a life

Carpe, you've got to be the biggest TF2 noob going. Saying that Spies Engineers and Pyros are rarely used. Pyros are devastating if played by the right people. Engineers are crucial to advancing their team to the front lines with teles... plus their sentries are very useful... Each class in TF2 is very distinctive and has it's pros and cons. Though, it's safe to say that each class is balanced very well. As such, you'll see them all on the battlefield as there is need for each character on any given team. GOD! NOOBS. *SIGH*

As for brawl-- I can't wait to see where this game will stand a year from now. I'm anxious to see the metagame of the characters grow.

 

[COMMOFDOOM]

Where's my Team Fortress 2 tier list?

Top Tier
Soldier

Mid Tier
Everyone else but Pyro

Crap Tier
Pyro

 

[Anarkex]

What's your point? The arguing is mostly because of scrubs who don't understand the tier list and decide to bash it. Pretty much any arguing I personally seen is due to misunderstandings. For some reason, many scrubs think tournament players are somehow ruining their style of play with tier lists and advanced techniques.

Note that I say scrubs, not casual players, since there is a difference, like how there is a difference between newbies and n00bs.

Honestly, I was just bringing to mind that this is an internet argument in the most basic sense, complete with insult-slinging, idiots, and egos. My real point, tho, is that tiers are appropriate, but not necessary. As much as there's no stopping tiers from being made, you have to admit that they do have a lot of negative side effects. New players will know which characters they will be able to use with as little effort as possible and still win. People who care more about winning than playing a character they like will switch their main if it's not in the upper half of the tier list. And look, as much as it's easy to crush their dreams, learn their patterns and slam one Marth into the ground after another, it gets dull fighting the same characters again and again. Nothing is going to stop tier lists from being made, and that's what makes this an internet argument: it gets nothing accomplished. But you have to admit there are a lot of obnoxious side effects that go with tier lists. As much as you or I understand that they are mostly arbitrary and based on tournament statistics only, they do create a trend among people looking for an easy win. And people like that are definitely common, not just in Smash, but in all fighting games.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I get the jest of the tier list, my point of view is still valid no matter how high your horse is.

People who resort to insults *points to your previous post above*
then try to play the opinion card always fail in an argument. If all you ar egoing to ay is LOL OPINION then kindly cease posting. Good day.

Honestly, I was just bringing to mind that this is an internet argument in the most basic sense, complete with insult-slinging, idiots, and egos.

I love you.

My real point, tho, is that tiers are appropriate, but not necessary. As much as there's no stopping tiers from being made, you have to admit that they do have a lot of negative side effects. New players will know which characters they will be able to use with as little effort as possible and still win. People who care more about winning than playing a character they like will switch their main if it's not in the upper half of the tier list. And look, as much as it's easy to crush their dreams, learn their patterns and slam one Marth into the ground after another, it gets dull fighting the same characters again and again. Nothing is going to stop tier lists from being made, and that's what makes this an internet argument: it gets nothing accomplished. But you have to admit there are a lot of obnoxious side effects that go with tier lists. As much as you or I understand that they are mostly arbitrary and based on tournament statistics only, they do create a trend among people looking for an easy win. And people like that are definitely common, not just in Smash, but in all fighting games.

Even without a tier list people will still flock to the character they think is best, even if it isn't official. Yes many people do change their mains but that is mainly because they want to win. So they aren't going to use a low tier character against Marth when they can either go Marth themselves, or choose another top tier character so they can truly compete.

I doa gree it gets boring facing the same character over and over again, as well as the same tactics, but those are going to happen regardless.

Tiers do exist whether they are officially presented or not, simply because diversity causes this and some characters are going to be better than other simply because of the differences between them. I do agree it is better to take tier lists with a grain of salt since they shouldn't be the decision that alters your gameplay.

cookie?

 

[NJzFinest]

A fighting game with more than 1 moveset has a tier list.

/thread

GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!


ZINK WON THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!


EVERYONE STOP POSTING NOW!!!!!!!!!


Seriously >_> that post ALONE is enough.

 

[ShadowLink84]

GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!


ZINK WON THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!


EVERYONE STOP POSTING NOW!!!!!!!!!


Seriously >_> that post ALONE is enough.

This is off topic but who is that in your avatar?

And Zink is the win.

 

[NJzFinest]

It's Akroma. Some card from Magic.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ahh okay you've satisfied my curiousity. Have a cookie. *offers*

Can I pm you to have a friendly match with you in brawl later?

 

[NJzFinest]

lol sure

 

[ThePlantiff]

It's Akroma. Some card from Magic.

She looks like the main character of heavenly sword...

Back on topic, I think the tier list easily affects how some people think. take me for example, I could look up the tier list see the top tier character, easily go to gamefaqs.com, look up the Fox guide(In melee) then read Upair, Upsmash, B and Down-B are broken, use them with frequency. Suddenly I am winning easily with fox against my brother's Ness who I always lose with my old main Mario, so I decide to main fox to kick my brother's ***, then everyone and their mom's are playing with fox to have at least a chance of winning against me, so the game becomes a Fox fest. That's the problem with the tier list and Maximo's arguement against it. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Epok]

I think people forget that sticking with a character and becoming more proficient with them and winning tournaments with them can change the tiers. if anybody remembers the first melee tier lists back when the game first came out, everyone thought roy was better than marth, zelda was good and fox was garbage. now look at the tiers. even at the end of melee the are still evolving because DK is higher in the tiers because of BUM who is winning tournaments/doing well with DK. So if anything It's more than okay to stick with your character no matter where they are on the tier list because it is always changing, so it doesn't always mean that your "low tier" character sucks, its just that people haven't found a successful way of playing that character.

So play who you want to play. Tiers don't have to effect who you play if you don't let them. sure you might have to try harder in some cases because not all smash characters are created equally. but your hard work could just end up paying off, and changing the tiers.

 

[ThePlantiff]

I think people forget that sticking with a character and becoming more proficient with them and winning tournaments with them can change the tiers. if anybody remembers the first melee tier lists back when the game first came out, everyone thought roy was better than marth, zelda was good and fox was garbage. now look at the tiers. even at the end of melee the are still evolving because DK is higher in the tiers because of BUM who is winning tournaments/doing well with DK. So if anything It's more than okay to stick with your character no matter where they are on the tier list because it is always changing, so it doesn't always mean that your "low tier" character sucks, its just that people haven't found a successful way of playing that character.

So play who you want to play. Tiers don't have to effect who you play if you don't let them. sure you might have to try harder in some cases because not all smash characters are created equally. but your hard work could just end up paying off, and changing the tiers.

QFT, you are the change you want to see in the world.

 

[Epok]

QFT, you are the change you want to see in the world.

Word.

10 char

 

[NJzFinest]

I think people forget that sticking with a character and becoming more proficient with them and winning tournaments with them can change the tiers. if anybody remembers the first melee tier lists back when the game first came out, everyone thought roy was better than marth, zelda was good and fox was garbage. now look at the tiers. even at the end of melee the are still evolving because DK is higher in the tiers because of BUM who is winning tournaments/doing well with DK. So if anything It's more than okay to stick with your character no matter where they are on the tier list because it is always changing, so it doesn't always mean that your "low tier" character sucks, its just that people haven't found a successful way of playing that character.

So play who you want to play. Tiers don't have to effect who you play if you don't let them. sure you might have to try harder in some cases because not all smash characters are created equally. but your hard work could just end up paying off, and changing the tiers.

Actually Fox was always consider good, it was Falco that was said to be decent/garbage.
Link was high tier too.

Btw, sure, DK and IC have moved up because of Bum and Chu Dat...but like, these characters AREN'T POPULAR (Fact: DK is the least popular character in SmashBros history). Other low tier characters like Roy and Kirby were used more, giving people a better sense of how terrible they were. I can only name 2 notable players each who attended Melee tourneys with IC and DK (Chu dat, Trail, Bum, and Mexican).

 

[Mercury]

Actually I'm flying on a pegasus, you're riding on a pheasant. My horse is so high you could not touch it with it all the dope in the world.

Let it rain
David blane
build a boat
build a plane
ride a train
swing a cane

I'm fearless, now hear this - I'm earless.
And I'm peerless, which means I'm eyeless.
That means I'm tearless, which means my iris resides where my ears is.

Which means I'm blinded.

uh. Tier lists are for Brawl.

 

[RBinator]

Honestly, I was just bringing to mind that this is an internet argument in the most basic sense, complete with insult-slinging, idiots, and egos. My real point, tho, is that tiers are appropriate, but not necessary. As much as there's no stopping tiers from being made, you have to admit that they do have a lot of negative side effects. New players will know which characters they will be able to use with as little effort as possible and still win. People who care more about winning than playing a character they like will switch their main if it's not in the upper half of the tier list. And look, as much as it's easy to crush their dreams, learn their patterns and slam one Marth into the ground after another, it gets dull fighting the same characters again and again. Nothing is going to stop tier lists from being made, and that's what makes this an internet argument: it gets nothing accomplished. But you have to admit there are a lot of obnoxious side effects that go with tier lists. As much as you or I understand that they are mostly arbitrary and based on tournament statistics only, they do create a trend among people looking for an easy win. And people like that are definitely common, not just in Smash, but in all fighting games.

This is an Internet argument, I'll give you that much. Debates and non-arguments seem rare these days. As for newbies picking characters on top of the tier list solely for that reason, their tier whores. The tier list doesn't apply to them, but they act like it does. If they pick Marth hoping for an easy win, they might be better of playing as Roy, since he has a bigger (but weaker) sweet spot and his counter does more damage and is likely to work more often at a low level of play. For the most part, I don't agree that picking a character high on the tier list is putting in as little effort as possible to win. Going by Melee, I personally believe Fox is the hardest character to master. Even if you read up his techniques, you still need the tech skills and mind games to back it up. Picking Fox hoping for an easy win when you have no idea how to play as him will likely lead you to losing, badly. Sheik, on the other hand, is possibly the easiest character to pick up who's high on the tier list.

Fighting the same characters over and over is truth as well. I think there's two issues when it comes to this. One, the character balance isn't that great in Melee. Two, many people are unwilling to practice and master someone they feel isn't gonna help them win that much compared to another character. I wonder if this would also fall under tier whores. With the possible exception of Sheik, to some degree, picking a high or top tier character is in no way an easy win due to the amount of skill needed to play them well.

Don't blame the knowledge, blame how people use the knowledge. All the Smash knowledge in the world isn't gonna get you far if you don't know how to put it to good use.

 

[Yuna]

The tierlist will not be perfect for the first couple of years. This is because the tierlists are written by human beings and we are often wrong.

So what if a tierlist can be misused? I'm so sick and tired of this argument. A lot of things can be misused. I guess we should all hide in our bedrooms at night and hope nothing bad ever happens. We shouldn't post about discovering new ATs since someone might abuse them so much the game will revolve around them.

Tierlists are a necessary evil. So what if some morons will tierwhore and not explore the metagames of lowered tiered characters? If a game is balanced enough, even the lower tiers will get enough play to flesh out their metagames. If not, then, well, they just suck too much, I guess.

There will be people around to flesh out the metagames of underplayed characters. You know why people suddenly started flocking to Marth a few years back? Because Ken showed you Marth was really good. Before Ken came along, no one really knew how to play Marth. Ken showed you how it's done and Marth's place in the tierlist changed. And people flocked to Marth.

Even with a tierlist, there will still be people discovering how good a character can be. Do you really think that just because there's a lack of a tierlist, everyone will give every single character equal play (on a competitive level)?

The tierlist is based on all that we know (at the moment) about the game's metagame and its characters' metagames. At the moment, we know that Marth, Toon Link, Pikmin & Olimar and a slew of other characters are really good... and that Yoshi and seemingly Ganondorf suck.

At the moment, a lot of people are going to be exploring Marth's, Toon Link's and Pikmin & Olimar's metagames. While neglecting Yoshi's. Even without a tierlist, this will happen. Because of obviousness. Upon picking the game up and picking it apart, it's immediately obvious Marth's good and Yoshi sucks.

Stop using the "But people will tierwhore!"-argument. It's stupid!

 

[OddCrow]

I don't mind people not liking tiers. Really, it does NOT bother me in the least.
What bothers me are people who say they don't exist. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Like saying "Fire isn't hot, you can't say I'm wrong, it's my opinion lulz."
Fact is tiers exist in everything, tier lists are just trends set by tournament goers/winners.
The people who most often complain about them don't go to tournaments, it does NOT affect you, so why try (and fail) to fight sooooo valiantly for no reason? It just boggles my mf'ing mind. It really does.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

The tierlist will not be perfect for the first couple of years. This is because the tierlists are written by human beings and we are often wrong.

[/quote]
Just like you are wrong about this discussion.

So what if a tierlist can be misused? I'm so sick and tired of this argument.

Then get out of the thread.

Tierlists are a necessary evil. So what if some morons will tierwhore and not explore the metagames of lowered tiered characters? If a game is balanced enough, even the lower tiers will get enough play to flesh out their metagames. If not, then, well, they just suck too much, I guess.

They arn't necessary, people will flesh out the game without them.
If you think people will flesh out low and top tiers, and the tier list will often be wrong...WHAT'S THE POINT?!? Even when you think you've worked everything out you probably havn't...Those of you who think characters suck, this early, are blithering idiots.

There will be people around to flesh out the metagames of underplayed characters. You know why people suddenly started flocking to Marth a few years back? Because Ken showed you Marth was really good. Before Ken came along, no one really knew how to play Marth. Ken showed you how it's done and Marth's place in the tierlist changed. And people flocked to Marth.

So we make a tierlist...and its up to a few people to pick up the slack in the characters that are deemed unfit, while everyone else tries to win with top tier? If you were REAL competitive gamers, YOU'D be checking out every character for what works, tierlist be ****ed. Not to mention, if you were really competitive, why on earth would you tell other people what you think will win a game?

Even with a tierlist, there will still be people discovering how good a character can be. Do you really think that just because there's a lack of a tierlist, everyone will give every single character equal play (on a competitive level)?

Then whats the point of a tierlist, if all you keep blabbing about is perfecting a few characters, if you think that people will do it anyway? ...More so than with a tierlist.

The tierlist is based on all that we know (at the moment) about the game's metagame and its characters' metagames. At the moment, we know that Marth, Toon Link, Pikmin & Olimar and a slew of other characters are really good... and that Yoshi and seemingly Ganondorf suck.

But if someone figures out how to play ganondorf better than the guys playing toonlink
you have to change the tierlist....and you're going to keep doing that for years and years...essentially your list is mostly wrong, and you have to slowly update it, for the few people willing to play other characters.

At the moment, a lot of people are going to be exploring Marth's, Toon Link's and Pikmin & Olimar's metagames. While neglecting Yoshi's. Even without a tierlist, this will happen. Because of obviousness. Upon picking the game up and picking it apart, it's immediately obvious Marth's good and Yoshi sucks.

How do you even know they are worth exploring, more than other characters?

Upon picking the game up and picking it apart, it's immediately obvious Marth's good and Yoshi sucks

That dosn't explain anything, it just sounds like your unwilling to learn how to play yoshi because he's more difficult, and you want to play marth cause he's easier for you.

Stop comparing Smash Bros. terms of balance to other games, its completely diffrent

 

[Mama]

I'm fearless, now hear this - I'm earless.
And I'm peerless, which means I'm eyeless.
That means I'm tearless, which means my iris resides where my ears is.

Which means I'm blinded.

uh. Tier lists are for Brawl.

Lol awesome someone knew what I was ripping off xD.

 

[MaximoSmasher]

I don't mind people not liking tiers. Really, it does NOT bother me in the least.
What bothers me are people who say they don't exist. It's not an opinion, it's a fact.
Like saying "Fire isn't hot, you can't say I'm wrong, it's my opinion lulz."
Fact is tiers exist in everything, tier lists are just trends set by tournament goers/winners.
The people who most often complain about them don't go to tournaments, it does NOT affect you, so why try (and fail) to fight sooooo valiantly for no reason? It just boggles my mf'ing mind. It really does.

Sure Tierlists exist, but in Brawl they are so difficult to find simply because the characters are soooooooooo diffrent. They'll spend years making their lists wrong and slowing the progress of characters that might actually be good.

Personally I never did tournaments for Melee, because I wasn't interested in how they played the game...I didn't come on the forums and tell people not to wavedash or l cancel or anything....I just didn't play in tournaments. But now that the game has been tightened and refined, I am interested in tournaments for Brawl, hence why I am discussing now before it does effect me.

 

[Mooplet]

I dont think people are paying attention to Yuna's posts, which i wholeheartedly agree with.

Tiers are just statements that the majority of people agree on- and the reason they change is because they are assumed to be true until they are refuted.

The tiers don't matter though- like Yuna said, if the majority of people who 'want to win' play high-tier characters, that does not mean for any reason that there is not work to be done on yoshi to learn new possibly game-breaking things about him.

Does anyone remember Ice Climbers a few years ago? Assumed to be horrible.. then.. whats this de-synching business...

It ended with Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Marth dominating the game, and the entire metagame became backwash of the same techniques over and over again.

In Brawl, however, recovery is barely an issue. Most characters have a sufficient amount of recovery to almost ALWAYS save them if the attack doesn't instakill. The loss of wave dashing and l-cancelling and a slower...more airy engine meant more strategic gameplay, as dodges count for everything and speed is based on how fast u can dodge and pull of an attack. Combo's are much more difficult to pull off and more rewarding.

While in Melee each character was forced to play similarly to succeed, Brawl promotes individuality. Meta Knight thrives on his fast swordsmanship and while Ike dominates on his slow heavy attack style. However, Meta Knight could never play the slow, heavy, smash attack based attack style that Ike plays, and vise-versa.

Remian:

1. Recovery IS an issue in brawl. True, lateral recovery is significantly easier, but you aren't always ABOVE the stage. You're just wrong about the instakill thing.

2. Speed is NOT based on how fast you can dodge and "pull off an attack"

3. In melee, not a single character was forces to play similarly to succeed. That's just wrong.

And brawl is going to have the exact same problems that you find in melee- difference in "unique" characters does not have any special bearing on the game. Ike may be slow and powerful, but it's still better to have a fast Ike. Metaknight is fast and weak, but it's still better to have a strong Metaknight. Inherent character differences are just strengths and weaknesses.