Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[ranmaru]

I am wondering why you are re-evaluating this game. Last game you sunk your teeth on Lore and this game you seem more reasonable.

This supports my doubt if Kary before the vote switch to Orange.

 

[ranmaru]

I said scum spew as in, he is giving easy town reads so that they can be linked to him upon is soup!scum flip. There are certainly no lies here. I said he is an insightful player and I gave you the quote.

 

[ranmaru]

It makes more sense that it would come around the time I was starting to like his slot and see it as genuine, before his explosion. I will leave it at that for now.

 

[Lore]

I said scum spew as in, he is giving easy town reads so that they can be linked to him upon is soup!scum flip. There are certainly no lies here. I said he is an insightful player and I gave you the quote.

You do realize that you can't say "his meta is that he's insightful" then call out his reads/plays and THEN pretend both that the meta read applies to his reads as a whole and that you never actually called out his reads.

This scum spew redefining is horrible, come on.

You've also consistently dodged my repeated pointing out of how you used the flip to justify your sudden vote swap first, rather than give this detailed reasoning that you supposedly had all along. Instead, you're focusing on semantics on unrelated points.


I also refuse to believe that you would keep your reads/info THIS close to your chest, even if you're trying to post less. This is strange behavior from any town player.

Hell, Fandango asked you to expand upon Soup, the literal top lynch candidate of the day and a player that you call town yet intend to vote for. Yet you decided to play coy and not state what reads of Soup you liked.

If you're voting for a claimed PR yet believe they're town, you damn well better give solid reasoning and explanations. Especially when another player is asking you about what makes you think Soup is town.

 

[ranmaru]

I sure can. I never said his reads were bad or wrong. Scum spew is usually town reads. The *not scumhunting* part was him not substantiating or giving quotes. Which I mentioned. Day 1. Still does not make his reads bad. The flip helped me understand that his explosion had no scum motivation. It was not what caused me to doubt that he was scum before the flip obviously, but that there were other scum beside him, and I was less confident in my reads, as stated in EOD. I never stated intent to vote Soup, I stated I would be fine with his lynch passing.

I already thoroughly explained why I think Soup is town.

 

[ranmaru]

Also I have been keeping things close to my chest as a different playstyle this game. I think it is important to this game especially if we have any chance at nabbing scum. If soup is the lynch today than there is no reason I should out It today nor yesterday. I can see why you wouldn't understand this though.

 

[Lore]

I sure can. I never said his reads were bad or wrong. Scum spew is usually town reads. The *not scumhunting* part was him not substantiating or giving quotes. Which I mentioned. Day 1. Still does not make his reads bad. The flip helped me understand that his explosion had no scum motivation. It was not what caused me to doubt that he was scum before the flip obviously, but that there were other scum beside him, and I was less confident in my reads, as stated in EOD. I never stated intent to vote Soup, I stated I would be fine with his lynch passing.

I already thoroughly explained why I think Soup is town.

If we're in a world where calling someone's reads "scum spewing" isn't calling the reads bad or wrong, then that's insane. I've already addressed the rest of this post more than enough; we're starting to loop back around to the start.

However, saying you can't defend Soup post-claim is so plainly obvious that you're setting up to hop on the wagon later. At best, you're saying that while you don't intend to vote, you are a-ok with not defending someone you read as a town PR. And that's at best.

If you really didn't ever say you're fine with voting Soup D2, fine. I'm going back and double checking it. But it's plainly obvious that your behavior signals a willingness to hop on the wagon later.

Also I have been keeping things close to my chest as a different playstyle this game. I think it is important to this game especially if we have any chance at nabbing scum. If soup is the lynch today than there is no reason I should out It today nor yesterday. I can see why you wouldn't understand this though.

>you say that you believe Soup is a town PR, yet you don't want to defend the slot
>a case gets made about your weird behavior around soup
>Fandango, as part of that discussion, gives you an opportunity to defend Soup or at least expand upon your read
>"Nah not really"

That's not playing close to the chest, that's just acting fishy as hell. You're literally being critiqued over your view of Soup, yet you refuse to expand upon it and defend your views.

You were a-ok with just sitting by and letting him die without defending him, and now you're falling back on some vague mentions of "this is how we win! Believe me!" Come on.

 

[ranmaru]

That is what scum spew means to me. As in, stating

Soup is town. #102 Shows that he is likely joking. #167 Seems to be genuine thoughts. #256 Shows frustration after explaining his joke. #421 His claim, was confusing to me. I thought it may have been to attract attention away from other wagons (being scum with them possible) but with Spak flipping town, this isn't the case. It also makes me to think Soup is less likely scum for not finishing the Gorf and Me convo the page before. Why as scum, would he leave that conversation if Spak is town and he could benefit from it? #658 His reads seem genuine.

His PR choice makes sense, as investigative may either choose to target lynch targets to block them, or ignore those and go for nulls, which I think is a smarter choice. Choosing Kevin over Lore doesn't make it less likely for people to want to lynch him.

To me, this is consistent with his personality. His aim in mafia and EIMM is to troll and have fun. Notice how as Town, Soup does stupid things and gets lynched for it. Yet as mafia, he is always read as obvious townie, and always seems to have more of an agenda and image. Plus, having a town PR, enables him to play in such an anti-town way.

This was my defense of him and I have nothing else to add to it? Nothing else for me to say.

 

[ranmaru]

EBWOP stating town reads as wifom and to hopefully draw connections to those players. I am a-ok with letting him die after I defended him already.

 

[Lore]

That is what scum spew means to me. As in, stating


This was my defense of him and I have nothing else to add to it? Nothing else for me to say.

EBWOP stating town reads as wifom and to hopefully draw connections to those players. I am a-ok with letting him die after I defended him already.

This was made long after your initial cases on Soup D1, and this was made with the context of the Spak flip. Completely irrelevant to your EoD1 swap and play. Stop arguing semantics on the use of the term; I don't intend to respond to further "proof" of what is meant by Scum Spew.

As for having already defending him, why didn't you just say that instead of going "no not really" then only saying "well I have already said what I think" after getting called out on it? You've painting the "no not really" as part of playing close to the chest, or at least that's how I've been reading it. I'm about 90% sure that the other players have taken it that way as well.


Spacing this next bit for emphasis, it's huge.




Most importantly, you're saying in the original post that, and I quote: "I thought it may have been to attract attention away from other wagons (being scum with them possible) but with Spak flipping town, this isn't the case."

But you didn't know Spak would flip town at EoD1. Yet you say toDay that your vote swap EoD1 was due to finding Soup's reads reasonable and not WIFOM, a view you just quoted yourself as having only decided on post-Spak-flip.

You're completely inconsistent with your own quoted material. You're contradicting yourself.

 

[Lore]

I'm pretty firmly satisfied with ending this discussion here. You've contradicted yourself repeatedly to the point where I find no further value in questioning. I certainly want Soup gone, but I'm starting to doubt that this could be a bus. Still thinking on that one.

But regardless, I find you vastly more scummy than Soup.

 

[ranmaru]

I think you are the one that brought it up. You can't prove that I said his reads were bad or wrong. I have shown you the quotes. I didn't think I needed to clarify that I had already defended him because I am assuming Fanny is read up? Nah, not really = I have nothing else to add. Note that Fanny used the word *expand*. The fact remains I have said all that I could about Soups play. Yes, you are right. I did not know this at EOD. This defense was posted today, Day 2, after Spak flipped town. Yes, I changed my vote because I was finding his reads genuine, before the spak lynch. Here is the fanny quote:

But while we are on it, might as well, anything you'd like to expand on about Soup's play?

 

[Lore]

I think you are the one that brought it up. You can't prove that I said his reads were bad or wrong. I have shown you the quotes. I didn't think I needed to clarify that I had already defended him because I am assuming Fanny is read up? Nah, not really = I have nothing else to add. Note that Fanny used the word *expand*. The fact remains I have said all that I could about Soups play. ... (removed section to quote later ~Lore) ... Here is the fanny quote:

I've shown quotes too, repeatedly. I've said my case, and there's not much else to add on that regard. I feel that we have sufficient proof that you considered his reads to be bad. You disagree. That's all there is to it.

Yes, you are right. I did not know this at EOD. This defense was posted today, Day 2, after Spak flipped town. Yes, I changed my vote because I was finding his reads genuine, before the spak lynch.

That's... literally the entire point of what I'm saying. You are saying in that post that you decided the reads were solid/not wifom AFTER the flip. Yet you're also saying that you thought that his reads were solid EoD1, despite giving zero reasoning EoD1 for the swap. Zero evidence that you found his reads as legit at the time.

You're completely contradicting yourself.

 

[ranmaru]

I feel that we have sufficient proof that you considered his reads to be bad. You disagree. That's all there is to it.

No, you are twisting my words here. Your major point crumbles once you understand my meaning of scum spew. Then hearing that I say I am finding his reads genuine, which is why I am starting to doubt he is scum, and am having concerns with Kary.

 

[Lore]

We are just arguing in circles at this point, and you are turning to semantics to argue. I'm going to step back and let the thread breathe for a while.

 

[ranmaru]

That is you trying to force a meaning I never meant and you refuse to back down from it for some reason? That is literally twisting facts man.

 

[Lore]

Yes, calling someone unproductive, scum, and survival-focused is absolutely not implying that you find their reads to be bad. Excuse the sarcasm, but the fact that you're focusing on the usage of a single phrase (out of context I might add) is getting a bit ridiculous.

Especially in context of the full statement, it's clear that you thought the reads were faulty:

(trimmed for brevity)

... I feel Soup's explosion is to place a seed of doubt and confusion as scum. His reads seem more like scum spew rather than a townie trying to find scum. ...

You're literally and directly calling him scum over it, while criticizing his reads.


Heck, let's straight up just use your definition of scum spew, taken from your earlier post: when a scum player spews out a buttload of reads (usually town ones) to introduce WIFOM and draw attention off of himself.

Ran, I respect your intelligence. I'm sure the same goes for everyone else. But I am baffled about how you are taking the above definition and saying that it means you DIDN'T find Soup's reads as faulty. By literal definition you're saying the reads are scum misdirection and not valid.

 

[Lore]

Forgot to add in the first paragraph: There were multiple other posts where you criticized Soup, not just the "scum spew" one.

 

[ranmaru]

My meaning is I found his town reads to seem like he was doing so, yes. Than, I get concerns about Kary and start to wonder that I am wrong. Look, I am going to have to reveal the other concern I had. It was Marshy, and Soup had some good points about him. If Soup flips town, I am looking at him. When I said you tunnel and I do the opposite, it was not meant as a blow. (I used to tunnel like you) But now, I constantly change my reads no matter what as long as I feel I am wrong in the moment. If you still don't believe me after all that was said and me revealing this, so be it. Can you see now why I would want to keep my cards close to my chest?

 

[Lore]

My meaning is I found his town reads to seem like he was doing so, yes. Than, I get concerns about Kary and start to wonder that I am wrong. Look, I am going to have to reveal the other concern I had. It was Marshy, and Soup had some good points about him. If Soup flips town, I am looking at him. When I said you tunnel and I do the opposite, it was not meant as a blow. (I used to tunnel like you) But now, I constantly change my reads no matter what as long as I feel I am wrong in the moment. If you still don't believe me after all that was said and me revealing this, so be it. Can you see now why I would want to keep my cards close to my chest?

Then... That means that you found his reads to be faulty. That's the point I've been making all along.

I'm also confused why you felt the need to keep Marshy points close to the chest when multiple people have said that he's a tough slot to read and needs more content. Why did you not just attempt to pressure him?

 

[ranmaru]

Soup town read me so I would not think it is faulty since I am town. On Marshy, I have tried before and failed. The way to solve him is *if he is still alive in d3 and mislynched players he is scum*. So this game I was observing.

 

[ranmaru]

Before as in last game. So trying a different approach here.

 

[Lore]

Soup town read me so I would not think it is faulty since I am town. On Marshy, I have tried before and failed. The way to solve him is *if he is still alive in d3 and mislynched players he is scum*. So this game I was observing.

Come on dude, a town player can criticize someone's reads when they have that player as a town read. Just look at our discussion here, where you straight up said that you thought this was a town push. This argument is getting extremely stretched.


As for the rest, I'm just completely baffled.

You're saying that you'd rather spin wheels, waste time, and just inevitably lynch Soup instead of defending your town PR read and pressuring Marshy? Just because of how a push last game failed?

 

[ranmaru]

Yes. That is exactly it. A Ryker quote can certainly back that up. (Not sure if this game, the last game, or another though) Also consider I push Marshy early a lot and this is my first time trying to observe and try a new style. I have questioned him but that is it. That is all I have to say. I will leave it at that. I am going to nap.

 

[Lore]

Yes. That is exactly it. A Ryker quote can certainly back that up. (Not sure if this game, the last game, or another though) Also consider I push Marshy early a lot and this is my first time trying to observe and try a new style. I have questioned him but that is it. That is all I have to say. I will leave it at that. I am going to nap.

Aight enjoy your nap. I'm still just utterly confused why you picked this route to go, letting your Town PR read die in favor of waiting to apply pressure to Marshy. New style or not, that's some weird priority-picking.

 

[Lore]

To be perfectly honest, it also fills in the hole for why you would do this as Scum!Ran if Scum!Soup is a thing.

The behavior is consistent with a scum player trying to get a town player mislynched. But it's also consistent with a scum player attempting a bus then suddenly seeing a way to let the scum partner live another day. Post N1, you could then double down on Soup as Town while distancing yourself of responsibility for the lynch D2, making the D1 actions seem like less of a bus.

I don't see a town player choosing to roll over and let their stated Town PR read die, instead of pressuring someone else. Even if you didn't directly defend Soup again, you could have pressured Marshy and tried to see if you could make Soup less of a priority.

I'm sorry, but I honestly just don't believe you. I'll be thinking more on things and absorbing what's happened so far, but that's where I'm at right now.

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

#HBC | marshy out of curiosity why did you ask me about my spak read way back when i initially responded "spak=doop"

 

[giraffelasergun]

Tom has been prodded.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

do you mean me asking how/why spak equated to doop?

i wanted to see your reasoning and if it had any merit. doop had been a scumread for me off a post he made so thought spak could hav made a similarly damning post id b able to pick up on

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

no no why you initially asked me on my read on spak. the post that sparked the answer

 

[Tom]

I've been so hesitant to post without having finished this note taking reread that I actually got prodded. Sorry you guys. I'm not inactive, I promise.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I've been so hesitant to post without having finished this note taking reread that I actually got prodded. Sorry you guys. I'm not inactive, I promise.

I would much rather see you actively participating, slowing down the reread and maybe putting your foot in your mouth. I'd rather see how your reread ends up coloring what you're sitting on now.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Personally, I feel ****ing stalled waiting on others.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Like, I read two pages of Ran and Lore talking about garbage and that's been more than I have gotten in the last 48 hours.

 

[KevinM]

My posts were sprinkled in there u dum dum

 

[KevinM]

Also the **** happened to my username

 

[#HBC | marshy]

no no why you initially asked me on my read on spak. the post that sparked the answer

at that time soup and lore had been arguing and spak made like 2-3 posts being weird about it. i felt like there was scum in that trio

at that point you hadnt made any game related posts. so i wanted to get you talking about a read i wanted to develop and get your stance on spak on record so you couldnt skim it over

 

[giraffelasergun]

Pythag has been prodded!

 

[Lore]

Like, I read two pages of Ran and Lore talking about garbage and that's been more than I have gotten in the last 48 hours.

Ran contradicting himself repeatedly before saying he's delaying pushing someone isn't garbage, and I'm a bit frustrated that this is your take.

The dude was stumbling all over himself, scrambling to explain things. It was to the point where he was arguing that since Soup called him town once, there's no way Ran criticized his reads.

He'd rather not push someone instead of letting his town-read, a claimed PR, die. And with that town read, he has said that he's pretty much cool with the lynch while distancing himself weirdly.

Dude is fishy as hell, and I don't see how that's garbage.