Whose Mafia Is it Anyway - Game Over!

[ranmaru]

Lore You don't always seem to be read up when posting. Is this true? If so, why don't you read more thoroughly?

 

[ranmaru]

Also what do you mean by this exactly?

I mean after his claim and explosion, I don't think I can defend him from a lynch, and do think his lynch can help inform my reads even though I think he is likely town.

 

[Fandangox]

I mean after his claim and explosion, I don't think I can defend him from a lynch, and do think his lynch can help inform my reads even though I think he is likely town.

Ah ok, I thought you meant something about his play was indefensible from your PoV

 

[Lore]

I mean why not? If we all voted soup right away we would have wasted a phase, we still have till tomorrow, look at Kevin now coming to the thread.

"What's left to figure out" Soup wants FF, and I asked him to expand on it. Tom, Gorf and FF still have yet to put votes down (and in FF case to actually post something on this phase) so its obvious people are still coming into the dayphase and want to discuss things, look at Tom for example.

Why would I go for you as a second option when Soup is my priority? I'd say I could go for you if that's the direction town decides to take for whatever reason, because Im still scumreading you.

Your alignment has "no relation" in that if Soup flips Town, you are still then my biggest scumread after him, and if he flips Scum I don't think that entirely clears you. Like Gorf thinks you may be town if Soup flips scum, but I disagree. Your play has been centered on Soup, maybe not unlike me all game, or Ryker this phase, but you specifically interacted mostly only with Soup and haven't tried to get too much info out of others till recently, and you were pretty aggressive towards Soup, could be distancing and your slot is still worth a look regardless of what he flips.

Well that's the thing. As I said last game, I'm not really a fan of treading water and lightly discussing things without pressure while people refuse to go for the lynch. It was so frustrating last game to have people sit on my wagon, just idly waiting for deadline before getting me gone. No one wanted to discuss other slots until pushed.

So when you have me as your second top scum read, I can't help but feel that it's weird of you not to drop a vote or begin applying pressure. Especially when you also more or less say you want Town's approval before going in my direction.

You can ask questions all you want, but votes are the main way to get results. Your lack of wanting to vote me makes the questioning feel a bit hollow and without real bite to it. You're being very cautious.


Thanks for the answer on my relation to the flip; it's a solid one, although I disagree on the "haven't tried to get much info out of others until recently" bit. Otherwise, it's a reasonable answer that's good to have down permanently for the record.

Lore You don't always seem to be read up when posting. Is this true? If so, why don't you read more thoroughly?

I tend to answer/react as I read, to more properly give people insights into my thought process. I'd rather people see step-by-step how I think as I'm going through the thread, to make up for the times when I wasn't there for it "live." It's a playstyle thing, and I'm not sure of the benefits of making a perfect, prepared statement instead of "live" reactions. In heated moments from other slots, I tend to value the latter in terms of getting a read.

I can stop it though, if it's clogging the thread a bit too much. I do also mobile post a good bit, and quotes are annoyingly glitchy on mobile. So I likely can't stop those.

I mean after his claim and explosion, I don't think I can defend him from a lynch, and do think his lynch can help inform my reads even though I think he is likely town.

Weren't you directly saying that Soup is the play, along with saying he's likely part of a scum team with me and Spak? That was after the claim too, if I recall correctly. But instead you're posting this:

Right now I still find soup town but can't really defend him after his claim. Interested in what Frozen Flame has to say specifically.

I don't understand why you're acting like he needed defending post-claim, when you were one of the most clear and firm about wanting him gone. This feels revisionist and inconsistent with your EoD1 play.

 

[ranmaru]

Being read up on the thread is more about having a better understanding of the game rather than having a perfectly prepared response.

I said he was the play the day before, but near the end I stated I was starting to doubt he was scum. I then re-read and explained my town read on him this phase. Point is, he has played so bad that his slot can't be salvaged, and his lynch is helpful in informing my reads. If you were more read up, you would understand my progression and conclusion.

 

[Fandangox]

Im not voting you or "pressuring" you right now cause I want Soup to be the Play Today. I still want you gone, but I want Soup gone first, that flip is going to be very important for the game. Like Im ok with you also being the play if Town moves that way, but I'd rather it be not and that it'd be Soup instead.

Votes are 3 vs 2 on Soup and you and if I vote you now there's a chance Soup will change from FF to you again and wriggle to another day. And while I may disagree, others seem to think you may be Town on a Soup scum flip, and I'd be willing to see town's perspective and them to explain their reasoning on that rather than tunnel you post-soup flip.

 

[ranmaru]

It is perfectly fine to vote your top scumread. I argued this with Rockin last game. I don't recall you agreeing with him.

 

[giraffelasergun]

#HBC | FrozeηFlame Has been prodded.

 

[Lore]

Being read up on the thread is more about having a better understanding of the game rather than having a perfectly prepared response.

I said he was the play the day before, but near the end I stated I was starting to doubt he was scum. I then re-read and explained my town read on him this phase. Point is, he has played so bad that his slot can't be salvaged, and his lynch is helpful in informing my reads. If you were more read up, you would understand my progression and conclusion.

Fair on that first bit, but I'm absolutely read up on you. Otherwise I wouldn't have found that post so iffy.

You say toDay that you simply can't defend his claim, and it reads (to me) like you are saying that "I really don't want to lynch him but if I haaaaaaaave to then k".

Meanwhile yesterday immediately post claim you were pretty hardcore into him being scum:

Spoiler

I think if Soup is scum, he's doing all this because his partner is scum being wagon-ed as well. I support his lynch. I really don't think this play makes sense being a town oracle, I would expect more confidence and oomph from Soup if so. If soup flips scum I'd actually look at Lore.

I think there are plenty of reasons to believe Spak and Lore are scum and it is absurd to disagree without a reason or post in mind.

Then you suddenly seem tepid and appear to be only lynching Soup for the flip, while then immediately contradicting your own tone. Quotes are here to show the difference in tone:

Spoiler

I am ready to flip soup, and feel we got enough out of him that I would vote him if others were fine if he were lynched right now. I did the same last game before voting Tom I think.

Let me lay out why I firmly believe soup is scum and not a pr and why I am eager for his lynch:

1. He stated disagreement on Spak page 10. Doesn't respond.
2. Tom brings up soups vote count mistake, soup explodes when it is not a normal reaction.
3. He claims early.

All in all, he cares more to respond to Tom which *escalates* him to what he wants, to claim early and get people off him, instead of conversing about reads he disagrees with. This is playing with a survival mindset, not a scum hunting one.

Then you suddenly wagon hopped to Spak/Orange as soon as PR game theory got brought up, without any reasoning provided by you. Minus "I think Orange is a fine competing wagon." Pretty strange shift for someone who just posted that you firmly believe Soup is scum and not a PR. Lost the quotes here due to Smashboards but they are between the last pack and the next.

You then made multiple posts saying that Soup is still scum, while arguing with me that you still firmly think Soup is scum despite your soft commitment/asking for permission:

Spoiler

I never said I wanted him gone for info.

Lore edit here: You quoted yourself here to prove that you see him firmly as Scum, click through to read

Meanwhile you were also responding to my posts by pointing out how pro-town your behavior is, and how you've done it before as Town. You also went out of your way to point out how you "don't care about your own image" (paraphrased) :

Spoiler

That was my explanation for that, alongside the fact of making sure if others are ready to have Soup at L-1. Generally a pro-town thing to do. People want more time, and I am fine with that.

I think it's simple. You don't put someone at L-1 when town is not ready. Putting him at L-1 risks discussion stopping (scum may decide to self hammer) and I'd rather not hurt that. That's the only reason and situation I would do so, and I have history as town doing so. Trying to place a vote at L-1 without considering would mean I just care more about my image than town.

And here's the rest of your posts RE: Soup at EoD1. You say that you have a hard read on Soup, but then you suddenly have a massive change of heart out of nowhere without zero real explanation:

Spoiler

I think the best play is Soup right now. I am starting to feel that if soup is scum, spak and Lore may not be scum. Kary brings up that Lore voting soup would be suicide and that is a good point. Now with Spak, his interactions with Lore don't seem like he is aligned with Lore. I feel Soup's explosion is to place a seed of doubt and confusion as scum. His reads seem more like scum spew rather than a townie trying to find scum. I still feel his frustration was not a genuine reaction to Tom or Kary. Due to this, I am unvoting and have my vote on Soup in spirit. His claim was pre-mature and Soup has not been productive all game, which does not match the alignment of town.

Unvote

The play is right under our noses. Vote Soup.

I am starting to doubt that Soup may be scum. I am less confident in Orange and Lore, but choose Orange.

Unvote; Vote: Orange

If this was legitimate doubt about Soup's lynch, it certainly feels forced, quick, and artificial. I have begun to believe that this was a distancing attempt, and a poor one at that.

Now today you're posting hand-wringing about how you want him lynched to support your reads. What? I don't like any of this from you, and I'm down to put my vote down on it.

Vote: Ranmaru

I still absolutely want Soup gone, and Soup is my priority. But this behavior from Ran is strange as hell, and he is now my second top lynch candidate.

 

[Lore]

Im not voting you or "pressuring" you right now cause I want Soup to be the Play Today. I still want you gone, but I want Soup gone first, that flip is going to be very important for the game. Like Im ok with you also being the play if Town moves that way, but I'd rather it be not and that it'd be Soup instead.

Votes are 3 vs 2 on Soup and you and if I vote you now there's a chance Soup will change from FF to you again and wriggle to another day. And while I may disagree, others seem to think you may be Town on a Soup scum flip, and I'd be willing to see town's perspective and them to explain their reasoning on that rather than tunnel you post-soup flip.

I suppose this is decently fair, but I still dislike the lack of commitment. But I've been clear about how I feel about lynching with a day to spare VS talking in circles until right before deadline.

 

[ranmaru]

Not strange at all. I think Spak flipping town helped me realize that his explosion was probably not due to buddies being Wagoned. That was a point I harped on Day 1. Re-reading alongside that, I felt his play was more likely coming from town soup. As you know, Soup is notorious for exploding regardless of alignment, and it is hard to read. I will repeat, his play is so bad that I can't defend it, and yes, his lynch will help my reads. The image comment was in reference to you, since you put a vote on Soup to L1 without considering that discussion may stop, simply so you could look brash.

 

[Fandangox]

oup is notorious for exploding regardless of alignment, and it is hard to read. I will repeat, his play is so bad that I can't defend it, and yes, his lynch will help my reads.

I thought you just said you couldn't defend him from a Lynch, and that it wasn't about his playstyle in particular, if you liking my #1,563 and not expanding on it was any indication.

 

[Lore]

Not strange at all. I think Spak flipping town helped me realize that his explosion was probably not due to buddies being Wagoned. That was a point I harped on Day 1. Re-reading alongside that, I felt his play was more likely coming from town soup. As you know, Soup is notorious for exploding regardless of alignment, and it is hard to read. I will repeat, his play is so bad that I can't defend it, and yes, his lynch will help my reads. The image comment was in reference to you, since you put a vote on Soup to L1 without considering that discussion may stop, simply so you could look brash.

If Spak's flip made you realize that, then why did you make this post pre-flip at the last minute without expanding on it? Quoted here:

I am starting to doubt that Soup may be scum. I am less confident in Orange and Lore, but choose Orange.

Unvote; Vote: Orange

You're arguing now as if you only just realized it post-flip, without expanding on why you suddenly swapped at the last minute D1. You had no flip to work off of at the time, yet you're saying that the flip made you doubt Soup being scum.

Another contradiction and inconsistency.

 

[ranmaru]

It is exactly as I told you. You are going to have to clarify on the playstyle bit. When I say he explodes regardless of alignment, it is hard to read and I initially read it as scum prioritizing survival of his mates, and seeing Spak flip town means it was more likely he exploded out if simple frustration.

 

[Lore]

It is exactly as I told you. You are going to have to clarify on the playstyle bit. When I say he explodes regardless of alignment, it is hard to read and I initially read it as scum prioritizing survival of his mates, and seeing Spak flip town means it was more likely he exploded out if simple frustration.

And again you act as if you just suddenly developed this doubt D2, instead of EoD1. You're hinging all of your doubt on the Orange/Spak flip, which literally didn't exist when you made your vote swap to Orange.

 

[ranmaru]

I was having doubts about Kary at that point, found it odd he was switching gears from soup and seemed more reasonable this game than the last. I was also liking Soups reads and found them genuine upon re-reading without flip. So I felt the better play would be to lynch Orange. I was having other doubts but I will keep those close to the chest as I stated to Gorf.

 

[ranmaru]

#1574 was in response to Fanny.

 

[Fandangox]

It is exactly as I told you. You are going to have to clarify on the playstyle bit. When I say he explodes regardless of alignment, it is hard to read and I initially read it as scum prioritizing survival of his mates, and seeing Spak flip town means it was more likely he exploded out if simple frustration.

I took from your #1,562 that the reasoning why you couldn't defend Soup was not because you thought his play was bad specifically, but because his Lynch is inevitable, when I commented back on it and when you liked the post without expanding on it or answering back I just took it as a confirmation that was the reason.

 

[ranmaru]

Another thought I had was I would rather keep Soup over Orange because then since I like his reads, he can better support me in my own pushes for scum yet I feel his lynch just needs to happen so I can for sure know which direction to go.

 

[Lore]

I was having doubts about Kary at that point, found it odd he was switching gears from soup and seemed more reasonable this game than the last. I was also liking Soups reads and found them genuine upon re-reading without flip. So I felt the better play would be to lynch Orange. I was having other doubts but I will keep those close to the chest as I stated to Gorf.

This is some hardcore backpedaling, after your recent series of posts where you imply that the flip was the decider.

You don't just Vote for a claimed PR, loudly and vividly make your case why you think they're lying, then jump off the wagon last minute with no explanation. Why on earth did you think this was ok to do, where you only explained much, MUCH later?

Not to mention how weird this explanation is. Sure you had lightly questioned Kary at the time, but then you only bring up Orange and Me in your vote swap post. If Kary was a defining reason why you swapped, there was zero reason to keep that close to your chest. Especially that close to deadline.

#1574 was in response to Fanny.

Yes, but it continued the trend of your inconsistency with the Soup-reasoning, so I pointed it out.

Another thought I had was I would rather keep Soup over Orange because then since I like his reads, he can better support me in my own pushes for scum yet I feel his lynch just needs to happen so I can for sure know which direction to go.

You literally said earlier in the push that Soup was in survival mode and not scum hunting. You even said that Soup was unproductive in another post. (All these are in my case, quoting again would be a hassle)

There was zero reason for you to suddenly like his reads. By your own admission, his reads were survival-focused and unproductive. Not to mention how shifty it is for you to straight up say that you wanted Soup, your previous hardcore scum read, to be around to support you in your reads.

If you had Soup as scum until the literal last minute, why would his potential push support make any sense to want as a Town player?

 

[ranmaru]

Fandangox Ah, I should be more clear. I think his lynch would happen regardless because he played so bad. I specifically can't defend his really bad play.

 

[Fandangox]

Fandangox Ah, I should be more clear. I think his lynch would happen regardless because he played so bad. I specifically can't defend his really bad play.

I mean I already knew you thought his lynch should happen regardless, just wasn't sure if you were talking about his playstyle there or not after your #1,571

 

[Fandangox]

But while we are on it, might as well, anything you'd like to expand on about Soup's play?

 

[ranmaru]

I did say soup was in survival mode. Yet after all that, I decided I was wrong. There was plenty of reason for keeping (kary) close to my chest. You can see my thought progression in EOD on him. For your last question, I have stated Soup has good insights. Therefore, I would rather keep him around for better chances of lynching scum.

 

[ranmaru]

But while we are on it, might as well, anything you'd like to expand on about Soup's play?

No, not really.

 

[Fandangox]

No, not really.

 

[ranmaru]

I still think he is town and nothing he has said lately has changed that.

 

[ranmaru]

*After his claim and explosion* is me explaining his bad play in my #1562 Fanny.

 

[Lore]

I did say soup was in survival mode. Yet after all that, I decided I was wrong. There was plenty of reason for keeping (kary) close to my chest. You can see my thought progression in EOD on him. For your last question, I have stated Soup has good insights. Therefore, I would rather keep him around for better chances of lynching scum.

Yeah, you decided you were wrong at the eleventh hour, then when finally pressed on it today, you brought up the Spak flip first as a defence. Then when pushed on how that doesn't apply to pre-flip, you suddenly have these horrible explanations.

Your first defense was the Spak flip, then when called out on it, you've scrambled to put together reasoning that you somehow couldn't say earlier.


And I'm calling bull **** on the good insights comment. You literally made a case about how he was in survival mode and how his content wasn't good or productive.

You didn't say that reasoning when you swapped, yet we're expected to believe now that you were ok EoD1 with Soup -your hardcore scum read that was based on his poor play and behavior- because you liked his reads and wanted his help in lynches?


I refuse to buy that argument. The posts and facts don't add up. If I could double vote right now, I would.

 

[Lore]

I am still fine with a Soup wagon for all previously stated reasons, but the sheer amount of inconsistency, hasty cover ups, and overall weird behavior from Ran makes me believe that he is scum.

Town doesn't go "Oh this player who I thought had bad reads and is scummy? And who I brought up for that reason, repeatedly? I actually like their reads and want this person, my former hardcore scum read until five seconds ago, to stay around so that they can support my pushes." ESPECIALLY not without explicitly saying that, and even more so when it's EoD1.

 

[ranmaru]

I have talked about Soup being an insightful player in Day 1. So if I start to doubt my scumreads, I re-read, and see he makes sense with some of the things he says. I was mostly convinced due to his explosion at first, and that is why I pushed him so hard. Re-reading again with a Spak flip strengthened the read.

 

[ranmaru]

Yes Town players do that. They re-evaluate. I think this push of yours is townie. You just can't think that town players do that because you always tunnel. I do the opposite. I have done it last game too, you never noticed it though. I gave more reasoning last game than this game, that is correct. It correct that my playstyle makes it harder for you to understand me, but it is to help me understand the game better.

Important question for you. Tell me what scum motivation I would have in letting Soups lynch happen if he is scum. How does that benefit ran!scum if his lynch is happening and is at 4 votes.

Unvote

 

[Lore]

One last post then lunch:

I still think he is town and nothing he has said lately has changed that.

Bull.

If you believe he is town, you believe that he is a PR. You don't just go "wellllll let's lynch a PR for info, I totally don't want to but if I haaaaave to I will." Any town on a claimed-PR wagon should be firm on it.

And let's hypothetically say that he is town. His oracle role triggers when he dies, and he claims that he got an action off. He is also the top lynch, for a multitude of reasons. Why on earth would you be hesitant to pull the trigger here, especially when it's such a pivotal lynch that at worst if he's town (and he's not) instantly clears another slot and gives deep insight into the game?

Your behavior is not consistent with town wanting to lynch a claimed PR. Your behavior feels more like someone trying extremely hard to distance from the lynch while still making sure it goes through. It's making me question now if Soup is town or not, when before I had zero doubts.

 

[Lore]

I have talked about Soup being an insightful player in Day 1. So if I start to doubt my scumreads, I re-read, and see he makes sense with some of the things he says. I was mostly convinced due to his explosion at first, and that is why I pushed him so hard. Re-reading again with a Spak flip strengthened the read.

:/

I think the best play is Soup right now. I am starting to feel that if soup is scum, spak and Lore may not be scum. Kary brings up that Lore voting soup would be suicide and that is a good point. Now with Spak, his interactions with Lore don't seem like he is aligned with Lore. I feel Soup's explosion is to place a seed of doubt and confusion as scum. His reads seem more like scum spew rather than a townie trying to find scum. I still feel his frustration was not a genuine reaction to Tom or Kary. Due to this, I am unvoting and have my vote on Soup in spirit. His claim was pre-mature and Soup has not been productive all game, which does not match the alignment of town.

Unvote

Cut out and bolded for emphasis:

His reads seem more like scum spew rather than a townie trying to find scum. I still feel his frustration was not a genuine reaction to Tom or Kary.

Yes, his reads were extremely valuable to you, and you saw him as an insightful player.

 

[ranmaru]

To elaborate on Soup: I expect him to talk in the way he has here, it is part of his personality. I'm mostly giving him the benefit of the doubt simply because he was the first person to state doubts about Spak, and am starting to feel I am wrong on him due to that. I think Soup is a player that seems to have good reads, but as town, usually gains heat on himself. Yet when scum, he never attracts attention, and I would rather keep alive for today at least. I don't care about the almost hammer. That wasn't my concern.

 

[Lore]

This is my actual last post:

Yes Town players do that. They re-evaluate. I think this push of yours is townie. You just can't think that town players do that because you always tunnel. I do the opposite. I have done it last game too, you never noticed it though. I gave more reasoning last game than this game, that is correct. It correct that my playstyle makes it harder for you to understand me, but it is to help me understand the game better.

Important question for you. Tell me what scum motivation I would have in letting Soups lynch happen if he is scum. How does that benefit ran!scum if his lynch is happening and is at 4 votes.

Unvote

Nah, town players give reasoning when they re-evaluate at the last minute. Then when pushed on it, they don't bring up something that happened AFTER the vote swap as support. Then they also don't stumble all over themselves, contradicting themselves in a scramble to defend their vote swap.


Thanks for the character attack on the tunneling instead of addressing why you've been inconsistent btw. As for the scum motivation, I'm re-evaluating my read on Soup after this exchange with you. Not sure how I feel yet.

 

[Lore]

*quote about how Soup can give good reads, based purely on meta*

Fam you can't quote that as support for your argument when A: it's based solely on meta and B: you directly call out his in-game reads as bad shortly after this post.

You saw his reads as bad. You said so repeatedly. You're not wiggling out of that.

 

[ranmaru]

It is true though. It takes this for you to have some doubt in your read on Soup. It is natural for a town player to have doubt, because we don't know alignments. You tunnel and it is a fact.

Yes town players do and have. It is a nice playstyle to have. I am still waiting for the scum motivation answer though. You can give it later though.

 

[ranmaru]

It implies I thought he said some insightful things in the game, I never specified which. His town reads I thought seemed like scum spew, it just vibed that way to me. Yet his other reads seemed to make some sense. Not specifying which.

 

[Lore]

It is true though. It takes this for you to have some doubt in your read on Soup. It is natural for a town player to have doubt, because we don't know alignments. You tunnel and it is a fact.

Yes town players do and have. It is a nice playstyle to have. I am still waiting for the scum motivation answer though. You can give it later though.

Either you're completely missing my point, or you're deliberately trying to argue a different point.

Town players tunnel. Yes. What they don't do is leave the tunnel without reasoning given, then when pushed later cite evidence that happened AFTER the swap as evidence for the swap. And then when pushed further, town players don't go "Oh I suddenly decided that my top scum pick's reads were good for me to use, despite bashing that player repeatedly over their reads."

I don't care about the swap itself. What I care about is how it was done, what the context was, and what your defense of it is. So far, all have been found wanting.

Considering the fact that I've said that I'm re-evaluating my Soup read based on just how bad your content is, I think the scum motivation answer (as in scum!Ran to scum!Soup) will wait. All your behavior lines up with Scum trying to lynch a PR, not a bus.

It implies I thought he said some insightful things in the game, I never specified which. His town reads I thought seemed like scum spew, it just vibed that way to me. Yet his other reads seemed to make some sense. Not specifying which.

You literally said that it was meta, and then you explicitly said, repeatedly, that his reads were straight up bad.

And this whole "not specifying which" crap is getting real old. I'm getting ready to just dip out of this conversation; in my eyes you were caught in a poor lie, and you're circularly arguing and subject-changing to try to get out of it.