Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Etc_Guy]

WHY DID EVERYONE FORGET THE KROOL KROKODILE KING?! Kuase not even kan kompete?

Am I right?

 

[Ephemiel]

Comic vine (though briefly) covered this speed difference is way too huge. Though against samus....maybe? idk the limit of their invulnerability....

Side note: Comic vine did a Samus vs Sonic already. Their conclusion.....settle it in smash lol

Biggest biased comparison i have ever seen. Let's give Sonic more stuff and even his Dark Sonic form and let's give Link....his bombs and bow because that's "modern" Link. Link, the one we've known from the games, would destroy Sonic ESPECIALLY if he goes into Dark Sonic form thanks to the Master Sword.

Btw, i love how almost all of the 28 comments there simply said "Sonic would win cause....." and that's it. Look at everything Link has done and the enemies he has beaten, take a look at his items and then tell me that Sonic, who barely has anything other than his transformations [which people only seem to mention Super Sonic when he has a few others, idk why] and Chaos Control can beat him.

 

[Munomario777]

Biggest biased comparison i have ever seen. Let's give Sonic more stuff and even his Dark Sonic form and let's give Link....his bombs and bow because that's "modern" Link. Link, the one we've known from the games, would destroy Sonic ESPECIALLY if he goes into Dark Sonic form thanks to the Master Sword.

Btw, i love how almost all of the 28 comments there simply said "Sonic would win cause....." and that's it. Look at everything Link has done and the enemies he has beaten, take a look at his items and then tell me that Sonic, who barely has anything other than his transformations [which people only seem to mention Super Sonic when he has a few others, idk why] and Chaos Control can beat him.

Going with the idea of taking Smash moves and applying canonical properties to them, I've compiled a list for Sonic:

Standard Moveset

Up Smash/Dash Attack/Edge Attack/Nair: When in spinball form, Sonic's quills are hard enough and his spinning speed fast enough for him to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound. When he really gets moving, however...

Side B (Spin Dash)/Down B (Spin Charge)/Down Throw: The Spin Dash is one of Sonic's most potent attacks, launching him off at top speed (see "Other") from a standstill, all while in the damaging spinball form. Of course, this attack is also extremely damaging, since it combines the raw ripping power of the basic Spin Attack with Sonic's signature speed. Additionally, in Sonic Adventure, with the use of the Light Speed Shoes and the Crystal Ring, the Spin Dash can also charge the Light Speed Attack, which has him use a supercharged Homing Attack at light speed, striking all nearby opponents. Speaking of the Homing Attack...

Neutral B (Homing Attack): Introduced in Sonic Adventure, the Homing Attack launches Sonic in midair towards an opponent, all in the blink of an eye. This attack can be used repeatedly to strike multiple opponents, or to repeatedly blast towards the same target. If there is no target in sight, Sonic will instead perform the Jump Dash, which is basically a Homing Attack, but instead of locking onto a target, it simply launches Sonic straight forward. This is useful for crossing large gaps, especially combined with his running speed or the Spin Dash.

Up Special (Spring Jump): While Sonic can't summon a spring in the Sonic games (unless you count debug mode ), Springs are extremely useful tools for traversing the terrain, giving massive amounts of height (especially the red ones in the Genesis titles, which Sonic is using here, due to the shape, color, and sound effect of the spring), allowing him to keep his horizontal momentum while skyrocketing him upwards. The spring doesn't do any damage in the Sonic titles, however, but it can be used to disrupt movement (if you ever played a classic Sonic game, you probably know what I mean).

Up Throw: This attack takes advantage of the fact that Sonic can harden his quills at will (they are sort of floppy normally, but harden in this and his spinning attacks), and is quite damaging to anyone who falls on the quills.

All Other Attacks: Many of these come from Sonic Battle, but I haven't found any good sources as to how powerful they are there, so I'll just have Smash be the canonical source of these moves for now.

Other Properties

Jump: Sonic's jump, especially when combined with momentum, is very far-reaching in his games, and his double jumps from Colors and Lost World are pretty nice as well for crossing gaps.

Running Speed: From Sonic News Network (Sonic Wiki)'s page on the Blue Blur himself:

Spoiler

Sonic is known best for his speed, with the ability to run at speeds greater than Mach 1, which is at the blistering speed of 761 mph (1,225 km/h). This is evident in many games, where Sonic is recorded to run at speeds faster than 765 mph (1,231 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He is occasionally referred to as "the fastest thing alive," and is even noted to be the fastest being in the universe.[28] Additionally, he can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes. Due to such speed, he is able to scale right up the walls of buildings, or similar structures, and can also run right over water.

It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, though it is on various occasions assumed that he can. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when the Final Egg Blaster was about to fire, Sonic defeated Ultimate Emerl in less than 30 seconds. It is also believed that Sonic can move faster while in spinball form than running, possibly even reaching the speed of light as seen in Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes where he could utilize the Light Speed Attack and the Light Speed Dash to achieve light speed movements. Also, in Sonic Unleashed, the Checkpoints, which measure his speed (SPD) in-game, can clock Sonic going over 2,800 SPD; in comparison, the Light Speed Dash measures 396 SPD. This suggests that Sonic can move at speeds far greater than the speed of light.

Sonic's speed does not seem to have certain weaknesses in that recklessness (the possibility of crashing into unintended targets) and "straight-line only" concepts are invoked, showing he has complete mastery over his speed. Sonic is additionally shown to be able to run in full tight circles, thus is not exposed to the impotency of only being able to run fast in straight lines. Should he be running at uncontrollable speeds, he can utilize the Drift to opportunely control his momentum and even crash into foes with it.

Aside from running, Sonic can also apply his super speed for other abilities. He is able to heal himself by vibrating his body at supersonic speeds, launch shockwaves by spinning in his spinball form at high speeds, create barriers of super speed for a split second, and set strong winds in motions with high-speed movements which he can use to attack opponents similar to aerokinesis.

Swimming: Yes, Sonic can swim. He swims in Smash, so that means I'm going to have to find an instance where Sonic can swim in a Sonic game. Luckily, I didn't have to go far, since he swims in the first Sonic game I ever played: Sonic Colors. In this game, Sonic can swim using his Spin Jump infinitely in water, similarly to 2D Mario games. However, he can still run out of breath, so finding air in time is key.

Final Smash: Sonic's Final Smash unleashes his most powerful attack in the game (no duh): Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic can fly, is invincible, moves even faster than normal, and can use the Super Sonic Boost. His top speed in this form is so fast that it's said he can exceed the speed of light! His power is also increased tremendously, being shown to let him smash through space fleets, break enormous metal restraints without effort, and even stun the mountain-sized boss Dark Gaia. In addition, he gains the ability to freely use multiple Chaos Powers, allowing him to teleport, create shields, shoot destructive golden waves, slow down time, and more. The aforementioned Super Sonic Boost has Sonic envelop himself in a fiery aura for as long as he so desires, which, as well as destroying nearly anything in his path, can also be used to launch projectiles back at opponents or boost through attacks to block them. However, Super Sonic can only be used for a limited time, and needs fifty Rings to initiate, which drain slowly over time.

Taunts/Entrance Animation: Sonic loves breakdancing, and his Down Taunt is no exception. Sonic's Up Taunt is a nod to the classic "finger wag," and his Side Taunt demonstrates the Super Peel Out, which is basically a Spin Dash, but without the Spin. His Entrance Animation is just the Spin Jump, nothing special there.

I'd say with this huge pool of attacks, strategies, and evasion techniques, Sonic is definitely more than capable of holding his own against much of the Smash cast.

Sources
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Sonic_the_Hedgehog#Powers_and_Abilities
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Spin_Attack
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Spin_Jump
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Spin_Dash
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Homing_Attack
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Light_Speed_Attack
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Sonic

And this is just taking moves and such from his Smash moveset; Sonic really has a lot more up his sleeve than you may think. Also, I don't see how only having his transformations (the ones that are invincible, super fast, super strong, etc.) would be a bad thing

 

[kyxsune]

Biggest biased comparison i have ever seen. Let's give Sonic more stuff and even his Dark Sonic form and let's give Link....his bombs and bow because that's "modern" Link. Link, the one we've known from the games, would destroy Sonic ESPECIALLY if he goes into Dark Sonic form thanks to the Master Sword.

Btw, i love how almost all of the 28 comments there simply said "Sonic would win cause....." and that's it. Look at everything Link has done and the enemies he has beaten, take a look at his items and then tell me that Sonic, who barely has anything other than his transformations [which people only seem to mention Super Sonic when he has a few others, idk why] and Chaos Control can beat him.

Yeah comic vine, not the greatest source. But they essentially spend their entire day doing the same BS analysis we're attempting here. Though what exactly, does link have to deal with sonic speed? I'm not gonna address chaos control because using it kind of trumps everything else (I mean cmon time and space warping is OP).

 

[Ephemiel]

And this is just taking moves and such from his Smash moveset; Sonic really has a lot more up his sleeve than you may think. Also, I don't see how only having his transformations (the ones that are invincible, super fast, super strong, etc.) would be a bad thing

I was talking specifically about that link i was shown which only gives Link 2 of his items yet give Sonic a bunch more stuff and even a transformation.

Also, when i said that people only seem to mention Super Sonic, i meant that he has others that are extremely powerful yet no one mentions them *points at Werehog Sonic, Excalibur Sonic and Darkspine Sonic*.

 

[Munomario777]

I was talking specifically about that link i was shown which only gives Link 2 of his items yet give Sonic a bunch more stuff and even a transformation.

Also, when i said that people only seem to mention Super Sonic, i meant that he has others that are extremely powerful yet no one mentions them *points at Werehog Sonic, Excalibur Sonic and Darkspine Sonic*.

Well, you said Sonic pretty much only has Chaos Control and transformations, so I just thought I'd point out his other abilities. And yeah, no one seems to mention many of the other transformations, but then again, Super Sonic is sort of iconic. By the way, don't forget Hyper Sonic

 

[Ephemiel]

Well, you said Sonic pretty much only has Chaos Control and transformations, so I just thought I'd point out his other abilities. And yeah, no one seems to mention many of the other transformations, but then again, Super Sonic is sort of iconic. By the way, don't forget Hyper Sonic

YEah i meant in the link, my bad there.

Also to Kyxsune, did you see the Death Battle by Screwattack where Link blocks Cloud Strife's Omnislash? That's your answer. Link has always had amazing reaction time, the main way of fighting Ganondorf most of the time involves slashing his own magic back at him, something like that needs some pretty good reaction time and reflexes. I'm pretty sure Link can at least react to Sonic.

Or you know, use Din's Fire to burn Sonic if he gets close, fire an Ice Arrow at the ground and see Sonic trip and laugh, use the Hyper Spin Attack or Gale Boomerang. You see where I'm going with this.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Biggest biased comparison i have ever seen. Let's give Sonic more stuff and even his Dark Sonic form and let's give Link....his bombs and bow because that's "modern" Link. Link, the one we've known from the games, would destroy Sonic ESPECIALLY if he goes into Dark Sonic form thanks to the Master Sword.

Btw, i love how almost all of the 28 comments there simply said "Sonic would win cause....." and that's it. Look at everything Link has done and the enemies he has beaten, take a look at his items and then tell me that Sonic, who barely has anything other than his transformations [which people only seem to mention Super Sonic when he has a few others, idk why] and Chaos Control can beat him.

I don't know much about the Zelda series, but the Master Sword is the bane of darkness. So Dark would get recked. The main problem is Link smart? Since no one knows competitor would have to be

Despite being whacky and krazy he's incredibly intelligent. If the krok could catch twice and once then fooling would be easy. KKR is miles more intelligent than because he's too big evil for most heroes to take on. Different personas per game mixes things up a lot. Instead of showing up like being normal and such, The King might be one game a king, but the next a kaptain, then a mad scientist, or a boxer.

Being krool in all doesn't help making friends. I'm getting Xenoblade this christmas (so don't spoil peez) but I guarantee doesn't go against someone this evil. While makes gods look wimpy in front of millions, the Krazy Krokodile King makes the most evil of them all look like they are the nicest to ever live.

YEah i meant in the link, my bad there.

Also to Kyxsune, did you see the Death Battle by Screwattack where Link blocks Cloud Strife's Omnislash? That's your answer. Link has always had amazing reaction time, the main way of fighting Ganondorf most of the time involves slashing his own magic back at him, something like that needs some pretty good reaction time and reflexes. I'm pretty sure Link can at least react to Sonic.

Or you know, use Din's Fire to burn Sonic if he gets close, fire an Ice Arrow at the ground and see Sonic trip and laugh, use the Hyper Spin Attack or Gale Boomerang. You see where I'm going with this.

What if they used strategy and swim in a lake? What if everyone did that?! (Except Spongebob despite living in a pineapple under the sea.)

 

[kyxsune]

@ Ephemiel

A fast reaction time, and super speed are way different. This is essentially a lower level Batman vs the Flash argument. Spoiler (Flash stomps )

In which case I dont think link is fast enough to avoid a speed blitz. Also, to your non canon evidence, I doubt omni slash is faster than sonic. Do you have any feats or evidence of link dealing with fast enemies...in his own games?

 

[Ephemiel]

I don't know much about the Zelda series, but the Master Sword is the bane of darkness. So Dark would get recked. The main problem is Link smart? Since no one knows competitor would have to be

Despite being whacky and krazy he's incredibly intelligent. If the krok could catch twice and once then fooling would be easy. KKR is miles more intelligent than because he's too big evil for most heroes to take on. Different personas per game mixes things up a lot. Instead of showing up like being normal and such, The King might be one game a king, but the next a kaptain, then a mad scientist, or a boxer.

Being krool in all doesn't help making friends. I'm getting Xenoblade this christmas (so don't spoil peez) but I guarantee doesn't go against someone this evil. While makes gods look wimpy in front of millions, the Krazy Krokodile King makes the most evil of them all look like they are the nicest to ever live.

What if they used strategy and swim in a lake? What if everyone did that?! (Except Spongebob despite living in a pineapple under the sea.)

KKR always wins, that's why he's not a character, he'd insta-win.

 

[Ephemiel]

@ Ephemiel

A fast reaction time, and super speed are way different. This is essentially a lower level Batman vs the Flash argument. Spoiler (Flash stomps )

In which case I dont think link is fast enough to avoid a speed blitz. Also, to your non canon evidence, I doubt omni slash is faster than sonic. Do you have any feats or evidence of link dealing with fast enemies...in his own games?

In Advent Children, you can see how fast Omnislash can be, at least fast enough to take even Sephiroth by surprise.

Is there evidence of Link dealing with fast enemies? That depends entirely of how quickly the player can react to anything in the games so whatever evidence i can provide would simply be my own opinion.

 

[Munomario777]

YEah i meant in the link, my bad there.

Also to Kyxsune, did you see the Death Battle by Screwattack where Link blocks Cloud Strife's Omnislash? That's your answer. Link has always had amazing reaction time, the main way of fighting Ganondorf most of the time involves slashing his own magic back at him, something like that needs some pretty good reaction time and reflexes. I'm pretty sure Link can at least react to Sonic.

Or you know, use Din's Fire to burn Sonic if he gets close, fire an Ice Arrow at the ground and see Sonic trip and laugh, use the Hyper Spin Attack or Gale Boomerang. You see where I'm going with this.

How fast is the Omnislash, out of curiosity? Because Sonic can run at speeds of 7,000+ MPH, and I kind of doubt Link could react in time for that. In addition, Sonic's Fire Shield item (from Sonic 3) can negate all fire attacks, and he doesn't trip on ice, as seen in pretty much every game with slippery physics. He just has traction issues when running on ice, but he can skate (like in Lost World) if he has problems with that sort of thing. If Link uses his Hyper Spin Attack, Sonic can just attack from above with his Homing Attack. If Link uses the Gale Boomerang, Sonic can dodge it with his razor-sharp reflexes (which are seen in canon; he can dodge things flown at him in Unleashed's opening, for example, with ease), and on its way back, it'll just speed him (and his attack) up. You see where I'm going with this.

 

[kyxsune]

Kirby is at least 4th position....if your small enough to be swallowed. #Fateworsethandeath

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT20OShGwNs&index=3&list=PLB833073B659FD65A

 

[Etc_Guy]

KKR always wins, that's why he's not a character, he'd insta-win.

I was saying that only and and the other Kongs kould beat him (because they did) since no one else has fought a villain this insane before.

might kower in fear from the wacko's kroolness. (Thanks .) Until a hero (or anyone really,) defeats a bad guy so evil that their own minions are scared him...... then the Kongs will never have kompetition.

(That even inkludes .)

 

[Ephemiel]

How fast is the Omnislash, out of curiosity? Because Sonic can run at speeds of 7,000+ MPH, and I kind of doubt Link could react in time for that. In addition, Sonic's Fire Shield item (from Sonic 3) can negate all fire attacks, and he doesn't trip on ice, as seen in pretty much every game with slippery physics. He just has traction issues when running on ice, but he can skate (like in Lost World) if he has problems with that sort of thing. If Link uses his Hyper Spin Attack, Sonic can just attack from above with his Homing Attack. If Link uses the Gale Boomerang, Sonic can dodge it with his razor-sharp reflexes (which are seen in canon; he can dodge things flown at him in Unleashed's opening, for example, with ease), and on its way back, it'll just speed him (and his attack) up. You see where I'm going with this.

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/clouds-original-omnislash-speed-273912/

Link's Magic Armors would allow him to resist any of Sonic's attacks from any direction, his Quake Medallion would likely stop Sonic from running unless now he can run through earthquakes without any problems, his Fire and Ice Arrows will stop Sonic's momentum or even stop from what positions Sonic can attack Link [also Sonic slips in Brawl, like everyone ], his spin attack/Hurricane spin attack can likely stop Sonic if he even gets close from the sides, the Gale Boomerang creates tornado-strength winds so even if it misses, the winds will affect Sonic.

Anything i missed? Or will Sonic's speed suddenly negate all i mentioned?

 

[Munomario777]

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/clouds-original-omnislash-speed-273912/

Link's Magic Armors would allow him to resist any of Sonic's attacks from any direction, his Quake Medallion would likely stop Sonic from running unless now he can run through earthquakes without any problems, his Fire and Ice Arrows will stop Sonic's momentum or even stop from what positions Sonic can attack Link [also Sonic slips in Brawl, like everyone ], his spin attack/Hurricane spin attack can likely stop Sonic if he even gets close from the sides, the Gale Boomerang creates tornado-strength winds so even if it misses, the winds will affect Sonic.

Anything i missed? Or will Sonic's speed suddenly negate all i mentioned?

I meant a canonical source, not speculation based off of hyperbole. Either way, as pointed out in a prior post, the video itself is non-canon (and I haven't found a source that states that Link can dodge a hypersonic attack with pure reflexes), so we have no indication that, canonically, Link can actually dodge something that fast. Also, if we're allowing invincibility items without their limits (the Magic Armor does reduce Rupees, after all, and the one that doesn't belongs to since it's a Wind Waker item), then Super, scratch that, HYPER Sonic is also invincible, as well as being able to fly, which negates the earthquake argument, as well as all of Link's offensive techniques (and no, it won't run out unless Link's does too, since they both drain the main currency item (Rings/Rupees)). You have no idea what you've awakened.

By the way, Link trips in Brawl too

 

[kyxsune]

http://lounge.moviecodec.com/vs-general/clouds-original-omnislash-speed-273912/

Link's Magic Armors would allow him to resist any of Sonic's attacks from any direction, his Quake Medallion would likely stop Sonic from running unless now he can run through earthquakes without any problems, his Fire and Ice Arrows will stop Sonic's momentum or even stop from what positions Sonic can attack Link [also Sonic slips in Brawl, like everyone ], his spin attack/Hurricane spin attack can likely stop Sonic if he even gets close from the sides, the Gale Boomerang creates tornado-strength winds so even if it misses, the winds will affect Sonic.

Anything i missed? Or will Sonic's speed suddenly negate all i mentioned?

As long as he's on the ground he can move (he is beyond agile enough for that), Sonic has dodged must faster ammunition (lasers at more than one point) than arrows, and sonic's sonic boom creates much stronger winds than a tornado (enough to rip thick metal to shreds and puncture steel doors).

Though links invulnerability may be an issue that forces a stalemate.

 

[kyxsune]

Captain falcon for top 10: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ue28Mbs8D4

 

[Ephemiel]

I meant a canonical source, not speculation based off of hyperbole. Either way, as pointed out in a prior post, the video itself is non-canon (and I haven't found a source that states that Link can dodge a hypersonic attack with pure reflexes), so we have no indication that, canonically, Link can actually dodge something that fast. Also, if we're allowing invincibility items without their limits (the Magic Armor does reduce Rupees, after all, and the one that doesn't belongs to since it's a Wind Waker item), then Super, scratch that, HYPER Sonic is also invincible, as well as being able to fly, which negates the earthquake argument, as well as all of Link's offensive techniques (and no, it won't run out unless Link's does too, since they both drain the main currency item (Rings/Rupees)).You have no idea what you've awakened.

By the way, Link trips in Brawl too

We said Link, not SSB Link so Toon Link is added as well since we're talking Link in general. Magic armor has limits and Link has some deep pockets, Sonic's transformations also have limits so mentioning Link's without acknowledging Sonic's, good job.

Canonically, everything we've found in The Legend of Zelda we can either block or dodge, regardless of what it is, especially with shields clearly enchanted to resist even the magic of Ganon himself. Hyper Sonic can fly and Link has beaten creatures that fly as well.

"You have no idea what you've awakened"? My friend, YOU have no idea. Give it up, Sonic can't beat Link with his items.

 

[kyxsune]

We said Link, not SSB Link so Toon Link is added as well since we're talking Link in general. Magic armor has limits and Link has some deep pockets, Sonic's transformations also have limits so mentioning Link's without acknowledging Sonic's, good job.

Canonically, everything we've found in The Legend of Zelda we can either block or dodge, regardless of what it is, especially with shields clearly enchanted to resist even the magic of Ganon himself. Hyper Sonic can fly and Link has beaten creatures that fly as well.

"You have no idea what you've awakened"? My friend, YOU have no idea. Give it up, Sonic can't beat Link with his items.

All it takes is one or two sonic booms. Plus there is nothing HALF as fast as sonic in links universe. Nothing.

Some context from raw in game data https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1QS9HZsaCE . I don't think sonic needs transformations or chaos emeralds to stomp. Its just soo uneven.

 

[kyxsune]

)

but could he survive a falcon punch?

 

[Etc_Guy]

but could he survive a falcon punch?

Don't know. (I've never played F-Zero.) But is Black Shadow a total psychopath?

 

[kyxsune]

Don't know. (I've never played F-Zero.) But is Black Shadow a total psychopath?

Don't know. (I've never played F-Zero)

 

[Etc_Guy]

Don't know. (I've never played F-Zero)

I'm not alone!

 

[Ephemiel]

All it takes is one or two sonic booms. Plus there is nothing HALF as fast as sonic in links universe. Nothing.

Some context from raw in game data https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j1QS9HZsaCE . I don't think sonic needs transformations or chaos emeralds to stomp. Its just soo uneven.

Yay, someone else who doesn't take any of Link's items into account and apparently seems to think he's just an idiot. Let's just end this here.

 

[kyxsune]

Yay, someone else who doesn't take any of Link's items into account and apparently seems to think he's just an idiot. Let's just end this here.

Yay we finally made it personal insults. Now its really like comic vine.

 

[Crystanium]

I don't mean that they're the same because they derive from our universe; I mean they could be the same because of all the cameos/crossovers between series. Crossover is a good documentation of some of these; I recommend giving it a watch.

Well, lasers don't have anything making them turn, except for gravity or polished surfaces. For Sonic, the thing making him turn (in place of gravity/polished surfaces) is the homing nature of the attack.

"Supersonic speeds" means multiple speeds above the speed of sound. One, two and three miles per hour above the speed of sound are multiple speeds above the speed of sound. Therefore, Samus "dashing at supersonic speeds" doesn't necessarily mean she's travelling at Mach 2, but that she can travel at multiple speeds above Mach 1.

Maybe Samus's Chozo training/DNA/whatnot has something to do with it? Or maybe we're just looking way too deep into this

Sure, Sonic isn't a photon, so who knows how that works. As for Game Theory, well, cameos are just that. They aren't meant to be accepted as canon. I doubt Samus was actually present in Tetris, or Super Mario RPG, or Kirby.

Yes, I understand that if say, Samus ran Mach 1.2 and could reach Mach 1.3, that would fall under "dash at supersonic speeds". However, my point is that the low-end shouldn't be Mach 1.2, but above that. Consider another idea. The Volt Driver produces multi-terawatts of high voltage in Metroid Prime Hunters, but people would go up to 2 terawatts, even though for all we know, it could be 1.5 terawatts. I'm just moving up one on the tier.

 

[Ephemiel]

Yay we finally made it personal insults. Now its really like comic vine.

You really should read better, i didn't call YOU an idiot.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Sure, Sonic isn't a photon, so who knows how that works. As for Game Theory, well, cameos are just that. They aren't meant to be accepted as canon. I doubt Samus was actually present in Tetris, or Super Mario RPG, or Kirby.

Yes, I understand that if say, Samus ran Mach 1.2 and could reach Mach 1.3, that would fall under "dash at supersonic speeds". However, my point is that the low-end shouldn't be Mach 1.2, but above that. Consider another idea. The Volt Driver produces multi-terawatts of high voltage in Metroid Prime Hunters, but people would go up to 2 terawatts, even though for all we know, it could be 1.5 terawatts. I'm just moving up one on the tier.

was actually in Super Mario RPG in Seaside Town in the inn after you defeat Yardovich. ( is after you kill Bowyer in Rose Town.) And also in DreamLand 3 in the last world, I forgot which one specifically. ( and the gyromite scientist in the second world.)

 

[Enrel]

The Super Smash Bros. Games balances out nintendo characters, but which one is the strongest? In my opinion, I'd say it's Mewtwo, with Pit coming at a close second. What do you guys think?

You can't beat the literal god of the universe Rosalina. Though Palutena is a god to so it might even out there.

Clearly though the only true answer is Luigi. Who else could carry that fat plumber into super stardom without asking for anything in return. That's true strength right there. Strength of character.

 

[Munomario777]

We said Link, not SSB Link so Toon Link is added as well since we're talking Link in general. Magic armor has limits and Link has some deep pockets, Sonic's transformations also have limits so mentioning Link's without acknowledging Sonic's, good job.

Canonically, everything we've found in The Legend of Zelda we can either block or dodge, regardless of what it is, especially with shields clearly enchanted to resist even the magic of Ganon himself. Hyper Sonic can fly and Link has beaten creatures that fly as well.

"You have no idea what you've awakened"? My friend, YOU have no idea. Give it up, Sonic can't beat Link with his items.

The thread is about discussing which Smash characters are more powerful in their canon than others. The Link in Smash () is Twilight Princess Link, as shown by the Gale Boomerang, as well as the overall appearance. The Toon Link in Smash () is from the Wind Waker; it's in his trophy description. Each Link is different, canonically; as such, their abilities are different, canonically, and they are completely different entities, canonically. I mentioned Hyper Sonic's limits; I just didn't take them into account, since you didn't take the Magic Armor's limits into account.

Actually, I disproved all the points you made with Link's items hindering Sonic's abilities in a previous post. Canonically, everything we've found in TLoZ has not been proven to hinder Sonic in any way that would prevent him from attacking. Yes, Hyper Sonic can fly, but he's also invincible. Has Link ever defeated something that has the ability to fly, super speed, and invincibility? (And I didn't even mention the screen nuke double jump from S3&K.)

Oh, believe me, Sonic and his items can defeat Link and his items any day (unless it's a stalemate due to unlimited invincibility with the Magic Armor/Hyper Sonic, if that's how that's being handled).

Side note: Sonic can hold 999 Rings at a time, and TP Link with max wallet upgrades can hold 1,000. Hyper Sonic drains 1 Ring/second, while Magic Armor drains multiple Rupees each second, in addition to losing 12 Rupees each time Link is hit. So, according to these numbers, Link's Magic Armor would run out of Rupees faster than Hyper Sonic would run out of Rings, especially if Link took a beating from Hyper Sonic.

Sure, Sonic isn't a photon, so who knows how that works. As for Game Theory, well, cameos are just that. They aren't meant to be accepted as canon. I doubt Samus was actually present in Tetris, or Super Mario RPG, or Kirby.

Yes, I understand that if say, Samus ran Mach 1.2 and could reach Mach 1.3, that would fall under "dash at supersonic speeds". However, my point is that the low-end shouldn't be Mach 1.2, but above that. Consider another idea. The Volt Driver produces multi-terawatts of high voltage in Metroid Prime Hunters, but people would go up to 2 terawatts, even though for all we know, it could be 1.5 terawatts. I'm just moving up one on the tier.

Yeah, who knows really. On the subject of game crossovers/cameos, sure, they're just cameos, but there's no denying that, for instance, Mario cameos in Kirby as an audience member... twice (in the Megaton Punch mode in Kirby Superstar). The canon character Mario from the Mario series is in a canon game in the Kirby series. Thus, they must somehow be connected, canonically. Granted, that doesn't mean that every life form has ether in it (the root of this whole discussion topic), nor does it mean Shulk is god over the entire gaming universe/multiverse. Just something entertaining to think about.

The low-end for the term "supersonic" is just what the definition implies: barely above the speed of sound (or Mach 00000000(etc.)1). The term "dash at supersonic speeds" implies nothing more. Of course, that doesn't mean that it isn't possible that Samus's top speed could be more than that, but there's just no solid proof that it is. Thus, the only real, solid assumption to make here is that Samus can run at the speed of sound (which is very impressive, may I add).

You really should read better, i didn't call YOU an idiot.

You put the insult into his mouth when he didn't say it, that insult being towards Link for being an "idiot."

 

[ilysm]

I may get blown up for this...but didn't Ness literally destroy the most powerful primordial embodiement of terror in the entire universe? A manifestation of pure evil beyond the comprehension of humans? "The Great Cosmic Destroyer" (who was aptly named because he was literally going to destroy the entire universe)? Giygas was a kind of all-powerful, Lovecraftian thing, like a god (or even more powerful than a god) . But I'm not familiar with the other games...who can top that?

Spoiler

Also, at the end of MOTHER 3, Lucas destroyed and re-created the entire universe, or set free the power that did. Maybe I'm just a bit biased towards the PK kids, though.

 

[Crystanium]

The low-end for the term "supersonic" is just what the definition implies: barely above the speed of sound (or Mach 00000000(etc.)1). The term "dash at supersonic speeds" implies nothing more. Of course, that doesn't mean that it isn't possible that Samus's top speed could be more than that, but there's just no solid proof that it is. Thus, the only real, solid assumption to make here is that Samus can run at the speed of sound (which is very impressive, may I add).

You put the insult into his mouth when he didn't say it, that insult being towards Link for being an "idiot."

Actually, it's no assumption that Samus could run at Mach 1.2, since that, by definition, is supersonic speed, and "supersonic" by definition, means "above sound". My point again, is that "speeds" is plural. Could it be Mach 1.3? Sure. That probably would be a safer assumption, but then there's really no point even saying "supersonic speeds" if the difference is 0.1. The next tier up would be Mach 2, which is what I'm working with.

 

[kyxsune]

I may get blown up for this...but didn't Ness literally destroy the most powerful primordial embodiement of terror in the entire universe? A manifestation of pure evil beyond the comprehension of humans? "The Great Cosmic Destroyer" (who was aptly named because he was literally going to destroy the entire universe)? Giygas was a kind of all-powerful, Lovecraftian thing, like a god (or even more powerful than a god) . But I'm not familiar with the other games...who can top that?

Spoiler

Also, at the end of MOTHER 3, Lucas destroyed and re-created the entire universe, or set free the power that did. Maybe I'm just a bit biased towards the PK kids, though.

Him, Sonic, Kirby, Shulk, Link, Samus, and technically lucina and robin have all faced "all powerful" enemies (am i missing anyone?) .. All powerful goes really far in games these days :D

@ Ephemiel

My bad misread, though we can both agree link is not exactly Dr. Mario or Ganon

 

[ilysm]

Huh. Okay. Thanks! This does seem a little like the whole 'who-would-win-in-a-fight-superman-or-the-hulk' kinda deal, but an entertaining discussion nonetheless. I'll need to check out Fire Emblem.

 

[Etc_Guy]

I may get blown up for this...but didn't Ness literally destroy the most powerful primordial embodiement of terror in the entire universe? A manifestation of pure evil beyond the comprehension of humans? "The Great Cosmic Destroyer" (who was aptly named because he was literally going to destroy the entire universe)? Giygas was a kind of all-powerful, Lovecraftian thing, like a god (or even more powerful than a god) . But I'm not familiar with the other games...who can top that?

Spoiler

Also, at the end of MOTHER 3, Lucas destroyed and re-created the entire universe, or set free the power that did. Maybe I'm just a bit biased towards the PK kids, though.

K. Rool can top Giygas like a pushover since he it STALIN krazy! Might not be godly but still stomps their feats like bugs. How many gods threaten to kill their own minions?

Even makes the King of Evil () look like a good person to be with. I may be bias for the Kongs but kome on! I kan't name one hero ever to go against a komplete psycho out for blood and selfish benefits. Darkri and the Chaos Kin might have caused some phycological damage but not out right physical torture someone because they're in your way to take all of their land.

KKR is NOT right in the head just like real villains. It would surprise me if the Kremlings go Kommunist so they can go really far trying to stop the all the Kongs. (If they return in the first place.)

 

[Munomario777]

Actually, it's no assumption that Samus could run at Mach 1.2, since that, by definition, is supersonic speed, and "supersonic" by definition, means "above sound". My point again, is that "speeds" is plural. Could it be Mach 1.3? Sure. That probably would be a safer assumption, but then there's really no point even saying "supersonic speeds" if the difference is 0.1. The next tier up would be Mach 2, which is what I'm working with.

You can't assume anything besides just above the speed of sound. Yes, Mach 1.2 does count as "supersonic," but so does Mach 0.00000000000001. There's nothing saying that it's Mach 1.2, only that it's somewhere above the speed of sound. Why would there be no point of making two speeds plural if they're different by .1? They're still two different speeds. Therefore, it says "speeds" plural. I still don't know where you're getting this whole Mach 2 thing from when it only says that Samus can run above the speed of sound. Plus, if she could run at Mach 2, I would think they would point that out in the description.

 

[Crystanium]

You can't assume anything besides just above the speed of sound. Yes, Mach 1.2 does count as "supersonic," but so does Mach 0.00000000000001. There's nothing saying that it's Mach 1.2, only that it's somewhere above the speed of sound. Why would there be no point of making two speeds plural if they're different by .1? They're still two different speeds. Therefore, it says "speeds" plural. I still don't know where you're getting this whole Mach 2 thing from when it only says that Samus can run above the speed of sound. Plus, if she could run at Mach 2, I would think they would point that out in the description.

Of course I can. I already pointed out another example where "multi-terawatt" is assumed to be 2 TW, even though it could be 1.5 TW because it's more than 1 TW. Mach 0.00000000000001 is not supersonic at all. That's 0.0000000000034029 m/s. A snail moves faster than that.

The definition of supersonic speed is Mach 1.2. Transonic speed is between Mach 0.8 and Mach 1.2. So the low-end would be Mach 1.2. Could Samus be traveling Mach 1.3 so that it could be said she travels "supersonic speeds"? Sure, but it would be pointless to even state that because it would be a marginal difference. The next tier above Mach 1.2 would be Mach 2.

Nintendo never points out numbers in a specific way. See the "multi-terawatt" example.

 

[Munomario777]

Of course I can. I already pointed out another example where "multi-terawatt" is assumed to be 2 TW, even though it could be 1.5 TW because it's more than 1 TW. Mach 0.00000000000001 is not supersonic at all. That's 0.0000000000034029 m/s. A snail moves faster than that.

The definition of supersonic speed is Mach 1.2. Transonic speed is between Mach 0.8 and Mach 1.2. So the low-end would be Mach 1.2. Could Samus be traveling Mach 1.3 so that it could be said she travels "supersonic speeds"? Sure, but it would be pointless to even state that because it would be a marginal difference. The next tier above Mach 1.2 would be Mach 2.

Nintendo never points out numbers in a specific way. See the "multi-terawatt" example.

"Multi" means multiple, as in two or more. "Supersonic" means above Mach 1. There's a difference. That first zero was supposed to be a one, my apologies. I guess that's what I get for trying to reply late at night

No, the definition of "supersonic" is "of, being, or relating to speeds from one to five times the speed of sound in air." The definition of "transonic" is essentially "travelling at a speed near the speed of sound." There's no "tiers" here; there are speeds. The only speed that we know for sure that Samus can travel is Mach 1, since that's the lowest speed the term "supersonic" describes, and no canon source has stated that she can travel above that, unless there's something I'm missing here.

I'm sorry, but you can't say Nintendo never shows specific numbers when they've confirmed Mario's height, age, and other traits, not to mention all the numbers in Nintendo games (World 1-1, Super Mario Galaxy 2, the list goes on).

 

[Crystanium]

"Multi" means multiple, as in two or more. "Supersonic" means above Mach 1. There's a difference. That first zero was supposed to be a one, my apologies. I guess that's what I get for trying to reply late at night

No, the definition of "supersonic" is "of, being, or relating to speeds from one to five times the speed of sound in air." The definition of "transonic" is essentially "travelling at a speed near the speed of sound." There's no "tiers" here; there are speeds. The only speed that we know for sure that Samus can travel is Mach 1, since that's the lowest speed the term "supersonic" describes, and no canon source has stated that she can travel above that, unless there's something I'm missing here.

I'm sorry, but you can't say Nintendo never shows specific numbers when they've confirmed Mario's height, age, and other traits, not to mention all the numbers in Nintendo games (World 1-1, Super Mario Galaxy 2, the list goes on).

The Merriam Dictionary is not an authoritative source on these matters. You should have went with NASA instead. From this source, "For aircraft speeds which are greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be supersonic" (bold in original source). And from here, "3. Supersonic conditions occur for Mach numbers greater than one, 1 < M < 5. The flow through the expansion bell of the nozzle is typically in this regime. Compressibility effects are also important for the external rocket because shock waves are generated by the surface of the rocket. For high supersonic speeds, 3 < M < 5, aerodynamic heating also becomes very important for rocket design." (bold in original source) Simply put, Mach 1 is the speed of sound. It is not supersonic, which from the Latin means "above sound".

You will also notice the word "regime". This refers to the flow regime. This is what I mean by "tier". And more interesting is the fact that NASA separates "supersonic" into two parts: low supersonic and high supersonic speeds. There's that plural word again. They do this with hypersonic speeds as well, where low hypersonic is from what I understand, Mach 5 to Mach 10, and high hypersonic speeds are from Mach 10 and higher. So considering high supersonic is ranged from Mach 3 to Mach 5, I think it's safe to say that "supersonic speeds" means Samus' low-end would be Mach 2.

As for descriptions, I recant what I said, but still maintain that Nintendo doesn't provide for specifics when it comes to tech specs. We know Samus is 90 kg. and 1.9 m. tall, according to the Metroid II: Return of Samus manual. We don't know where the range for "supersonic speeds" and "multi-terawatt", however. This is why looking to real data provided by NASA or by a reputable source is the next step.