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For people saying Shulk is the most powerful, how is Visions going to work on characters who lack ether and characters who are faster than him? To say he can counter anything with Visions is a no-limits fallacy.
I don't like Sonic, but I'm placing him on the top of the tier list because he can move faster than everyone else. Samus is the second fastest with the ability to run Mach 2. If ships are allowed, then Samus is above everyone with her ship's ability to travel 7.2 times faster than light (Official Metroid Prime Web site; I'd actually say it's faster, since she travels to and from galaxies in her lifetime), then Pit because even if Sonic can use his light speed dash, it's only ever used on the ground, and Samus and Pit have ships that travel extremely fast in the air. Furthermore, Sonic would have to travel in one direction, since light travels linearly.
Remember, it's about taking Smash movesets and applying canonical properties (so, for instance, 's Rest wouldn't have the launching properties it does in Smash, instead doing what it does in Pokemon), and I haven't found any canonical sources that state Wario's farting being able to split him in half (no, the Game Theory episode isn't canon). The closest thing I could find is his page on Super Mario Wiki stating that "In Super Mario Strikers Charged Wario also has the power of farting to stun his [opponents]." Since Wario is known to break wind in his own games, we won't be placing it under the category of Smash-original moves, either. If you do find a source for Wario's waft having that much power, however, I'd love to see it. It would definitely be interesting to see the origins of one of his most unique attacks!
For people saying Shulk is the most powerful, how is Visions going to work on characters who lack ether and characters who are faster than him? To say he can counter anything with Visions is a no-limits fallacy.
I don't like Sonic, but I'm placing him on the top of the tier list because he can move faster than everyone else. Samus is the second fastest with the ability to run Mach 2. If ships are allowed, then Samus is above everyone with her ship's ability to travel 7.2 times faster than light (Official Metroid Prime Web site; I'd actually say it's faster, since she travels to and from galaxies in her lifetime), then Pit because even if Sonic can use his light speed dash, it's only ever used on the ground, and Samus and Pit have ships that travel extremely fast in the air. Furthermore, Sonic would have to travel in one direction, since light travels linearly.
I can get most powerful, but not strongest. If they have to use manipulation of some sorts to pickup something that and could lift then they're cheating.
If you do find a source for Wario's waft having that much power, however, I'd love to see it. It would definitely be interesting to see the origins of one of his most unique attacks!
For people saying Shulk is the most powerful, how is Visions going to work on characters who lack ether and characters who are faster than him? To say he can counter anything with Visions is a no-limits fallacy.
I don't like Sonic, but I'm placing him on the top of the tier list because he can move faster than everyone else. Samus is the second fastest with the ability to run Mach 2. If ships are allowed, then Samus is above everyone with her ship's ability to travel 7.2 times faster than light (Official Metroid Prime Web site; I'd actually say it's faster, since she travels to and from galaxies in her lifetime), then Pit because even if Sonic can use his light speed dash, it's only ever used on the ground, and Samus and Pit have ships that travel extremely fast in the air. Furthermore, Sonic would have to travel in one direction, since light travels linearly.
I think it would be best to just have characters and what they bring to the table in Smash gameplay fighting in the ring, and have the Final Smashes (one of which is Samus's Gunship) be used once per battle, or something along those lines. On the subject of the Light Speed Dash only being used in midair, it can be used anywhere where there is a line of rings, regardless of them being in midair or not, and the Light Speed Attack is basically a Homing Attack which has to be charged, meaning it can home in on an enemy from midair. As for Sonic's inability to turn (which I would think a vehicle would have, such as Samus's Gunship, but whatever), please refer to this excerpt from the Sonic Wiki's Sonic the Hedgehog article:
Sonic's speed does not seem to have certain weaknesses in that recklessness (the possibility of crashing into unintended targets) and "straight-line only" concepts are invoked, showing he has complete mastery over his speed. Sonic is additionally shown to be able to run in full tight circles, thus is not exposed to the impotency of only being able to run fast in straight lines. Should he be running at uncontrollable speeds, he can utilize the Drift to opportunely control his momentum and even crash into foes with it.
In other words, problems such as recklessness and not being able to turn are not a problem for Sonic while running, showing that he has fully mastered control of his speed.
Which I already pointed out as non-canon, since it's not made by Nintendo, it's based on Smash (which is only canon for moves that have no other canonical source in this model), and it has even been admitted by the creator to have some very iffy calculations (it's in one of the other episodes). That same person has also admitted that Smash has inconsistent scaling (skip to 1:55 in this video), which, when used in the calculations seen in the episode, put Wario at ten feet tall, which I'm pretty sure isn't the correct height.
I think it would be best to just have characters and what they bring to the table in Smash gameplay fighting in the ring, and have the Final Smashes (one of which is Samus's Gunship) be used once per battle, or something along those lines. On the subject of the Light Speed Dash only being used in midair, it can be used anywhere where there is a line of rings, regardless of them being in midair or not, and the Light Speed Attack is basically a Homing Attack which has to be charged, meaning it can home in on an enemy from midair. As for Sonic's inability to turn (which I would think a vehicle would have, such as Samus's Gunship, but whatever), please refer to this excerpt from the Sonic Wiki's Sonic the Hedgehog article: In other words, problems such as recklessness and not being able to turn are not a problem for Sonic while running, showing that he has fully mastered control of his speed.
Right, Light Speed Dash can be used in mid-air. I forgot about that. What I mean about Sonic traveling linearly when traveling at light speed is that in order for Sonic to travel at the speed of light, he would need infinite energy, or he would need to be massless, since it seems massless particles by nature must travel at light speed. Since Sonic isn't blowing things up, I'd say the latter occurs, if only briefly. Other than that, I'm sure Sonic has master of his speed in terms of Mach 5.
For people saying Shulk is the most powerful, how is Visions going to work on characters who lack ether and characters who are faster than him? To say he can counter anything with Visions is a no-limits fallacy.
I don't like Sonic, but I'm placing him on the top of the tier list because he can move faster than everyone else. Samus is the second fastest with the ability to run Mach 2. If ships are allowed, then Samus is above everyone with her ship's ability to travel 7.2 times faster than light (Official Metroid Prime Web site; I'd actually say it's faster, since she travels to and from galaxies in her lifetime), then Pit because even if Sonic can use his light speed dash, it's only ever used on the ground, and Samus and Pit have ships that travel extremely fast in the air. Furthermore, Sonic would have to travel in one direction, since light travels linearly.
Right, Light Speed Dash can be used in mid-air. I forgot about that. What I mean about Sonic traveling linearly when traveling at light speed is that in order for Sonic to travel at the speed of light, he would need infinite energy, or he would need to be massless, since it seems massless particles by nature must travel at light speed. Since Sonic isn't blowing things up, I'd say the latter occurs, if only briefly. Other than that, I'm sure Sonic has master of his speed in terms of Mach 5.
No worries; we all make mistakes. However, we do see massive amounts of energy rushing toward him in at least the Light Speed Dash first appearance in Sonic Adventure during the charging sequence, so he could just be using infinite energy. Then again, he isn't affected by gravity, so it could also be him going massless. However, I don't quite see how either scenario would necessarily limit him to going in a straight line. In fact, the Light Speed Dash has been shown to go along curved ring trails[1], and the Light Speed Attack has him circling around opponents in some cases[2].
Sources:
1) The right angle made while light-dashing right after the spring in this video.
2) This (It's Shadow, but the same thing happens with Sonic before locking on to an enemy).
I've stated in numerous posts in this thread that Ganondorf is one of the top three strongest. His feats just pale in comparison to Shulk. Ganondorf with the full Triforce would be an interesting matchup for him, however.
So without warping reality is defenseless against everyone? could still fight without his tongue. / have levin swords incase the tomes been used too many times. 's power pellets are temporary and only used to eat ghost.\
Don't know if still needs boxing gloves to be considered a boxer though. has only fought like , , and Toad without a luma nearby and stole Spongebob's trademark attack anyways.
So without warping reality is defenseless against everyone? could still fight without his tongue. / have levin swords incase the tomes been used too many times. 's power pellets are temporary and only used to eat ghost.\
Don't know if still needs boxing gloves to be considered a boxer though. has only fought like , , and Toad without a luma nearby and stole Spongebob's trademark attack anyways.
So without warping reality is defenseless against everyone? could still fight without his tongue. / have levin swords incase the tomes been used too many times. 's power pellets are temporary and only used to eat ghost.\
Don't know if still needs boxing gloves to be considered a boxer though. has only fought like , , and Toad without a luma nearby and stole Spongebob's trademark attack anyways.
No he's absolutely not defenseless. He's still powerful, just not in the same realm as his current incarnation. Even without godhoood he's a skilled warrior with a vast array of abilities but he's more on Pit's level. A step or two below the top tier.
No he's absolutely not defenseless. He's still powerful, just not in the same realm as his current incarnation. Even without godhoood he's a skilled warrior with a vast array of abilities but he's more on Pit's level. A step or two below the top tier.
Pit fought against 3 different gods and won! (Sure, he lost the first time against Hades, but he still won the second time!)
Shulk defeated ONE god who possesed not one, but TWO god-slaying swords.
Yeah, I know Palutena was under the Chaos Kin's control, that Pyrrho was under the Aurum's control and that Pit used the Three Sacred Treasures, and then Great Sacred Treasure against Hades, but Shulk DOES have a god-slaying sword, doesn't he?
No he's absolutely not defenseless. He's still powerful, just not in the same realm as his current incarnation. Even without godhoood he's a skilled warrior with a vast array of abilities but he's more on Pit's level. A step or two below the top tier.
Samus Aran is quite obviously the most powerful character in smash. She's from the most technologically advanced series, where humans have mastered FTL space travel, and she's literally using the best technology in the galaxy. She's single-handedly eradicated the most dangerous lifeforms IN the galaxy (Metroids, Phazon, X parasite). She is sent to planets, ALONE, to solve problems. (Samus dont need no damn parties to save the world).
Not to mention, shes sexy as hell.
Close contenders:
= Lets be real now. His abilities are entirely dependent on which [****ty] game of his you're referencing. The strongest he's ever been has been in Unleashed, where he somehow gained the ability to truckstick the **** out of metal robots with his face. He blows away robotnick's boss robots with a great amount of ease, until they turn on him, and then he goes super sonic, and fights things usually on a scale of stupid that Samus hasn't technically had to deal with.
Super Sonic is where Samus probably ends up losing...depending on which super sonic you're dealing with of course. I don't think Samus would have had an issue with any of the super sonic bosses in the franchise by herself, so Sonic Adventure 1/2 SS would still probably lose. And Dark Gaia from Unleashed required the help of Light Gaia, so it's debatable how much help he really was. and Sonic 06 never happened.
You could argue that Shadow would be a better threat because of Chaos Control. But Samus has dealt with dimensional warping enemies (Ing), and even dimensional warping metroids. So I still doubt he'd stand a chance.
= Definitely loses. X would stand a slightly better chance, but still no chance, because Samus is clearly just better armed than any version of Mega Man, she'd probably single-handedly end every war X and Zero has fought in.
= Same deal. Outclassed in technology.
= Probably powerful, but lets be real. If she was Samus-level good, she wouldn't need Mario.
= If Samus could beat Link (which wouldn't be a contest), she could just as easily shoot gannon in the face.
= He's using a sword. He automatically loses.
= Greek samus, gtfo
= Same with Rosalina, if she needs Pit's help, she probably isn't strong enough to beat Samus.
= Lol
Bottom line, if Samus was as strong as she was by the end of even Prime 3, she would be faster, stronger and more agile than everyone in this game but Sonic the Hedgheog. But by the time we reach Super Metroid, even that spot is potentially taken.
Probably. What I usually do is, just take the 2 characters and put them not against eachother, but the final bosses (or strongest enemy) in their respective stories.
Or better yet, If the boss in each respective game was replaced by a fully armored Samus Aran, I can't see anyone coming close to winning the fight other than Super Sonic. If you replace the main character in every game with starter Samus Aran, the game's storyline would likely be over in mere hours, the enemies would never reach their target powers because samus would have likely wrecked all obstacles and annihilated them on first encounter.
She just vaporizes everything with her ridiculous weaponry and outsmarts everything with her suit. And then flies away to do it on some other planet, because she's freaking Samus Aran.
Remember, it's about taking Smash movesets and applying canonical properties (so, for instance, 's Rest wouldn't have the launching properties it does in Smash, instead doing what it does in Pokemon), and I haven't found any canonical sources that state Wario's farting being able to split him in half (no, the Game Theory episode isn't canon). The closest thing I could find is his page on Super Mario Wiki stating that "In Super Mario Strikers Charged Wario also has the power of farting to stun his [opponents]." Since Wario is known to break wind in his own games, we won't be placing it under the category of Smash-original moves, either. If you do find a source for Wario's waft having that much power, however, I'd love to see it. It would definitely be interesting to see the origins of one of his most unique attacks!
Samus Aran is quite obviously the most powerful character in smash. She's from the most technologically advanced series, where humans have mastered FTL space travel, and she's literally using the best technology in the galaxy. She's single-handedly eradicated the most dangerous lifeforms IN the galaxy (Metroids, Phazon, X parasite). She is sent to planets, ALONE, to solve problems. (Samus dont need no damn parties to save the world).
Not to mention, shes sexy as hell.
Sonic 06 never happened.
Bottom line, if Samus was as strong as she was by the end of even Prime 3, she would be faster, stronger and more agile than everyone in this game but Sonic the Hedgheog. But by the time we reach Super Metroid, even that spot is potentially taken.
But there are times where Samus loses the fights she's in such as the fights against Ridley, Mother Brain, the Omega Metroid in Fusion and Dark Samus so it should be clear you can't automatically assume she would win every time. Mother Brain would have killed Samus had the Baby Metroid not come and save her.
Samus Aran is quite obviously the most powerful character in smash. She's from the most technologically advanced series, where humans have mastered FTL space travel, and she's literally using the best technology in the galaxy. She's single-handedly eradicated the most dangerous lifeforms IN the galaxy (Metroids, Phazon, X parasite). She is sent to planets, ALONE, to solve problems. (Samus dont need no damn parties to save the world).
and don't need technology to do what they want. is agile like and but can't lift without her suit. is also a loner too, taking anyone on for the treasure and treasure only. likes to go on adventures with friends since DKC. (Spongebob does the same )
Anywaysis kinda like the Chuck Norris of Nintendo, but still needs technology to get most stuff done.
No he's absolutely not defenseless. He's still powerful, just not in the same realm as his current incarnation. Even without godhoood he's a skilled warrior with a vast array of abilities but he's more on Pit's level. A step or two below the top tier.
Your right. is the only on that uses chairs, torches, fish in a bowl, bacon, manholes, firemen, parachutes, deep-sea diving helmets, that tube that sprays pesticide, and numbers 1-9.
Probably. What I usually do is, just take the 2 characters and put them not against eachother, but the final bosses (or strongest enemy) in their respective stories.
Or better yet, If the boss in each respective game was replaced by a fully armored Samus Aran, I can't see anyone coming close to winning the fight other than Super Sonic. If you replace the main character in every game with starter Samus Aran, the game's storyline would likely be over in mere hours, the enemies would never reach their target powers because samus would have likely wrecked all obstacles and annihilated them on first encounter.
She just vaporizes everything with her ridiculous weaponry and outsmarts everything with her suit. And then flies away to do it on some other planet, because she's freaking Samus Aran.
Samus Aran is quite obviously the most powerful character in smash. She's from the most technologically advanced series, where humans have mastered FTL space travel, and she's literally using the best technology in the galaxy. She's single-handedly eradicated the most dangerous lifeforms IN the galaxy (Metroids, Phazon, X parasite). She is sent to planets, ALONE, to solve problems. (Samus dont need no damn parties to save the world).
Not to mention, shes sexy as hell.
Close contenders:
= Lets be real now. His abilities are entirely dependent on which [****ty] game of his you're referencing. The strongest he's ever been has been in Unleashed, where he somehow gained the ability to truckstick the **** out of metal robots with his face. He blows away robotnick's boss robots with a great amount of ease, until they turn on him, and then he goes super sonic, and fights things usually on a scale of stupid that Samus hasn't technically had to deal with.
Super Sonic is where Samus probably ends up losing...depending on which super sonic you're dealing with of course. I don't think Samus would have had an issue with any of the super sonic bosses in the franchise by herself, so Sonic Adventure 1/2 SS would still probably lose. And Dark Gaia from Unleashed required the help of Light Gaia, so it's debatable how much help he really was. and Sonic 06 never happened.
You could argue that Shadow would be a better threat because of Chaos Control. But Samus has dealt with dimensional warping enemies (Ing), and even dimensional warping metroids. So I still doubt he'd stand a chance.
= Definitely loses. X would stand a slightly better chance, but still no chance, because Samus is clearly just better armed than any version of Mega Man, she'd probably single-handedly end every war X and Zero has fought in.
= Same deal. Outclassed in technology.
= Probably powerful, but lets be real. If she was Samus-level good, she wouldn't need Mario.
= If Samus could beat Link (which wouldn't be a contest), she could just as easily shoot gannon in the face.
= He's using a sword. He automatically loses.
= Greek samus, gtfo
= Same with Rosalina, if she needs Pit's help, she probably isn't strong enough to beat Samus.
: I'd appreciate it if you could provide some specific examples on her abilities, so we can compare strength/power rather than feats. : Who said he relied on his party members? As stated before, Shulk is basically omnipotent, and can will anything into (or out of) existence. : First off, it doesn't help your argument to insult an entire fanbase and the games' creators. If you don't like the games, fine, but there's no reason to insult them. Second, force = mass * acceleration. What Sonic lacks in raw power, he makes up for with raw speed. I made a whole post about taking Sonic's Smash moves and applying canonical properties to them, so I'll keep it brief here. Sonic can move so fast that Samus couldn't see him, regardless of Chozo training, and that's even before he enters Super Sonic. Also, we're not really pulling from one game here; we're pulling from canon. Essentially, if it was ever in a game, it counts in the topic. By the way, what do you mean by a "scale of stupid?" Stupidly large? Powerful? Stupid in design? On the subject of Super Sonic, your logic doesn't really make sense for the SA 1/2 forms (just because Samus can beat the final bosses doesn't mean she can beat the hero who also beat those same bosses), and as mentioned before, Crisis City is in Sonic Generations, so '06's canonical status is debatable. However, your argument regarding the Dark Gaia fight is valid. : Yeah, Mega Man might not be the best candidate out there, but he is very versatile with his Robot Master abilities, and don't forget the Rush moves/adapters (Super Adapter is fairly powerful, if I'm not mistaken). : Gameplay/story segregation. If you played as someone as powerful as Rosalina (flight, etc.), it wouldn't be a platformer. If you played as Rosalina, it wouldn't be a Mario game. Much like Sonic is slowed down to make the game not too hard, Rosalina enlists Mario's help to make the game not too easy. : Well, Ganondorf can canonically only be defeated with the Master Sword, IIRC. again, since you mentioned him twice: So an omnipotent being who uses a godly weapon that happens to be a sword is discounted for his weapon of choice? : So you're discounting him for his aesthetic? : Yeah, Pit is likely more powerful than Palutena, but I'd imagine she's still pretty powerful, being a goddess and all. : Your argument is "lol?" You're not even going to give any reasons, or evidence, or even another word besides "lol?" You should really step up your arguments.
While he might not have a fart attack in a Wario game, he does have a fart attack in the game I mentioned (Super Mario Strikers Charged), and he does break wind in a WarioWare minigame, IIRC.
Probably. What I usually do is, just take the 2 characters and put them not against eachother, but the final bosses (or strongest enemy) in their respective stories.
Or better yet, If the boss in each respective game was replaced by a fully armored Samus Aran, I can't see anyone coming close to winning the fight other than Super Sonic. If you replace the main character in every game with starter Samus Aran, the game's storyline would likely be over in mere hours, the enemies would never reach their target powers because samus would have likely wrecked all obstacles and annihilated them on first encounter.
She just vaporizes everything with her ridiculous weaponry and outsmarts everything with her suit. And then flies away to do it on some other planet, because she's freaking Samus Aran.
So to determine the strongest character, you put the against someone/thing other than the other competitors, and not only that, but a someone/thing who/which varies game to game? I think a better way would to make them actually fight each other
Again, you can't make such claims without sources and/or examples. Unless you provide a canon example where Samus can "vaporize everything with her ridiculous weaponry and outsmart everything with her suit," then your argument doesn't hold water. Also, about the outsmarting thing, isn't the suit just a, you know, suit? As in it doesn't actually affect her brain/intellect/reflexes, only her physical abilities.
The problem with this is, like i mentioned, Sonic's actual speed is ridiculously inconsistent throughout the series. He's gone from pretty fast (genesis) to casually keeping up with cars on foot (Adventure/Heroes) to literally accelerating 0-300 MPH in under a second (Unleashed)...and then back to pretty fast (Lost World). Then you have Eggman, a genius who creates exclusively incompetent robots. Sonic murders them all with ease, but then again looking at all of them, Samus would have zero issue doing the same.
The robots Samus fights on the otherhand are almost all competent in their own right, some are even able to deflect her various power beam upgrades. Samus herself has suit upgrades that shrug off space, water and even being submerged in acid and lava.
If sonic was a physically possible (0-300MPH instantly without killing himself, surviving impacts and shrugging them off) he'd be a very powerful creature even by Metroid standards, but on the same token, samus fights those types of creatures on the regular. Impacts are the least of her worries when you're having energy weapons shot at you.
Basically, if sonic was able to keep up his assault of speed indefinitely, i dont think samus could hit him...but there's no indication Sonic would even be able to adequately damage her, let alone survive a single shot from a missile or beam weapon.
The problem with this is, like i mentioned, Sonic's actual speed is ridiculously inconsistent throughout the series. He's gone from pretty fast (genesis) to casually keeping up with cars on foot (Adventure/Heroes) to literally accelerating 0-300 MPH in under a second (Unleashed)...and then back to pretty fast (Lost World). Then you have Eggman, a genius who creates exclusively incompetent robots. Sonic murders them all with ease, but then again looking at all of them, Samus would have zero issue doing the same.
The robots Samus fights on the otherhand are almost all competent in their own right, some are even able to deflect her various power beam upgrades. Samus herself has suit upgrades that shrug off space, water and even being submerged in acid and lava.
If sonic was a physically possible (0-300MPH instantly without killing himself, surviving impacts and shrugging them off) he'd be a very powerful creature even by Metroid standards, but on the same token, samus fights those types of creatures on the regular. Impacts are the least of her worries when you're having energy weapons shot at you.
Basically, if sonic was able to keep up his assault of speed indefinitely, i dont think samus could hit him...but there's no indication Sonic would even be able to adequately damage her, let alone survive a single shot from a missile or beam weapon.
So while sonics pace has changed with time, his top speed and his insane agility have not, as an example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUvWn6KA3No). I usually maintain that his top speed fits with the slogan (faster than the speed of sound). Plus we can agree his acceleration is high enough to do a speed blitz since sonic CD (the game the scene is from).
Also he does not "shred" the robots with his face he shreds this with the wind cone that forms in front of him.
The problem with this is, like i mentioned, Sonic's actual speed is ridiculously inconsistent throughout the series. He's gone from pretty fast (genesis) to casually keeping up with cars on foot (Adventure/Heroes) to literally accelerating 0-300 MPH in under a second (Unleashed)...and then back to pretty fast (Lost World). Then you have Eggman, a genius who creates exclusively incompetent robots. Sonic murders them all with ease, but then again looking at all of them, Samus would have zero issue doing the same.
The robots Samus fights on the otherhand are almost all competent in their own right, some are even able to deflect her various power beam upgrades. Samus herself has suit upgrades that shrug off space, water and even being submerged in acid and lava.
If sonic was a physically possible (0-300MPH instantly without killing himself, surviving impacts and shrugging them off) he'd be a very powerful creature even by Metroid standards, but on the same token, samus fights those types of creatures on the regular. Impacts are the least of her worries when you're having energy weapons shot at you.
Basically, if sonic was able to keep up his assault of speed indefinitely, i dont think samus could hit him...but there's no indication Sonic would even be able to adequately damage her, let alone survive a single shot from a missile or beam weapon.
I'd like to refer you to my previous post, where I go into Sonic's speed in detail (by which I mean quoting a Wikia page that goes into Sonic's speed in detail):
Going with the idea of taking Smash moves and applying canonical properties to them, I've compiled a list for Sonic:
Standard Moveset
Up Smash/Dash Attack/Edge Attack/Nair: When in spinball form, Sonic's quills are hard enough and his spinning speed fast enough for him to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound. When he really gets moving, however...
Side B (Spin Dash)/Down B (Spin Charge)/Down Throw: The Spin Dash is one of Sonic's most potent attacks, launching him off at top speed (see "Other") from a standstill, all while in the damaging spinball form. Of course, this attack is also extremely damaging, since it combines the raw ripping power of the basic Spin Attack with Sonic's signature speed. Additionally, in Sonic Adventure, with the use of the Light Speed Shoes and the Crystal Ring, the Spin Dash can also charge the Light Speed Attack, which has him use a supercharged Homing Attack at light speed, striking all nearby opponents. Speaking of the Homing Attack...
Neutral B (Homing Attack): Introduced in Sonic Adventure, the Homing Attack launches Sonic in midair towards an opponent, all in the blink of an eye. This attack can be used repeatedly to strike multiple opponents, or to repeatedly blast towards the same target. If there is no target in sight, Sonic will instead perform the Jump Dash, which is basically a Homing Attack, but instead of locking onto a target, it simply launches Sonic straight forward. This is useful for crossing large gaps, especially combined with his running speed or the Spin Dash.
Up Special (Spring Jump): While Sonic can't summon a spring in the Sonic games (unless you count debug mode ), Springs are extremely useful tools for traversing the terrain, giving massive amounts of height (especially the red ones in the Genesis titles, which Sonic is using here, due to the shape, color, and sound effect of the spring), allowing him to keep his horizontal momentum while skyrocketing him upwards. The spring doesn't do any damage in the Sonic titles, however, but it can be used to disrupt movement (if you ever played a classic Sonic game, you probably know what I mean).
Up Throw: This attack takes advantage of the fact that Sonic can harden his quills at will (they are sort of floppy normally, but harden in this and his spinning attacks), and is quite damaging to anyone who falls on the quills.
All Other Attacks: Many of these come from Sonic Battle, but I haven't found any good sources as to how powerful they are there, so I'll just have Smash be the canonical source of these moves for now.
Other Properties
Jump: Sonic's jump, especially when combined with momentum, is very far-reaching in his games, and his double jumps from Colors and Lost World are pretty nice as well for crossing gaps.
Sonic is known best for his speed, with the ability to run at speeds greater than Mach 1, which is at the blistering speed of 761 mph (1,225 km/h). This is evident in many games, where Sonic is recorded to run at speeds faster than 765 mph (1,231 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He is occasionally referred to as "the fastest thing alive," and is even noted to be the fastest being in the universe.[28] Additionally, he can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes. Due to such speed, he is able to scale right up the walls of buildings, or similar structures, and can also run right over water.
It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, though it is on various occasions assumed that he can. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when the Final Egg Blaster was about to fire, Sonic defeated Ultimate Emerl in less than 30 seconds. It is also believed that Sonic can move faster while in spinball form than running, possibly even reaching the speed of light as seen in Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes where he could utilize the Light Speed Attack and the Light Speed Dash to achieve light speed movements. Also, in Sonic Unleashed, the Checkpoints, which measure his speed (SPD) in-game, can clock Sonic going over 2,800 SPD; in comparison, the Light Speed Dash measures 396 SPD. This suggests that Sonic can move at speeds far greater than the speed of light.
Sonic's speed does not seem to have certain weaknesses in that recklessness (the possibility of crashing into unintended targets) and "straight-line only" concepts are invoked, showing he has complete mastery over his speed. Sonic is additionally shown to be able to run in full tight circles, thus is not exposed to the impotency of only being able to run fast in straight lines. Should he be running at uncontrollable speeds, he can utilize the Drift to opportunely control his momentum and even crash into foes with it.
Aside from running, Sonic can also apply his super speed for other abilities. He is able to heal himself by vibrating his body at supersonic speeds, launch shockwaves by spinning in his spinball form at high speeds, create barriers of super speed for a split second, and set strong winds in motions with high-speed movements which he can use to attack opponents similar to aerokinesis.
Swimming: Yes, Sonic can swim. He swims in Smash, so that means I'm going to have to find an instance where Sonic can swim in a Sonic game. Luckily, I didn't have to go far, since he swims in the first Sonic game I ever played: Sonic Colors. In this game, Sonic can swim using his Spin Jump infinitely in water, similarly to 2D Mario games. However, he can still run out of breath, so finding air in time is key.
Final Smash: Sonic's Final Smash unleashes his most powerful attack in the game (no duh): Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic can fly, is invincible, moves even faster than normal, and can use the Super Sonic Boost. His top speed in this form is so fast that it's said he can exceed the speed of light! His power is also increased tremendously, being shown to let him smash through space fleets, break enormous metal restraints without effort, and even stun the mountain-sized boss Dark Gaia. In addition, he gains the ability to freely use multiple Chaos Powers, allowing him to teleport, create shields, shoot destructive golden waves, slow down time, and more. The aforementioned Super Sonic Boost has Sonic envelop himself in a fiery aura for as long as he so desires, which, as well as destroying nearly anything in his path, can also be used to launch projectiles back at opponents or boost through attacks to block them. However, Super Sonic can only be used for a limited time, and needs fifty Rings to initiate, which drain slowly over time.
Taunts/Entrance Animation: Sonic loves breakdancing, and his Down Taunt is no exception. Sonic's Up Taunt is a nod to the classic "finger wag," and his Side Taunt demonstrates the Super Peel Out, which is basically a Spin Dash, but without the Spin. His Entrance Animation is just the Spin Jump, nothing special there.
I'd say with this huge pool of attacks, strategies, and evasion techniques, Sonic is definitely more than capable of holding his own against much of the Smash cast.
On the subject of enemies, you could make the argument that some are weak about pretty much any game with a gradual difficulty. Of course a Motobug is easy to kill; it's Sonic's Goomba. Sonic has faced some extremely powerful enemies in his time (seriously, he's taken down more god monsters than you can shake a chili dog at). Also, I'd like to know which enemy of Samus's can run at speeds exceeding the speed of sound, while still retaining tight control and doing all the other things that I've described in the quote above. By the way, according to your last sentence, Samus wouldn't be able to hit Sonic, since he never really tires out from running.
I mean does there need to be another example? Who else is reality warping without prep time? I don't really see how anyone could argue that Shulk isn't canonically the most powerful character. He's the only one in the cast who has displayed the ability to restructure a universe as he sees fit. He can do whatever he wants. I'm not saying it's a fair fight but in the case of Shulk no one really has a fair chance against him. He's simply in a tier of his own.
I mean does there need to be another example? Who else is reality warping without prep time? I don't really see how anyone could argue that Shulk isn't canonically the most powerful character. He's the only one in the cast who has displayed the ability to restructure a universe as he sees fit. He can do whatever he wants. I'm not saying it's a fair fight but in the case of Shulk no one really has a fair chance against him. He's simply in a tier of his own.
If we go by the character's universes, Shulk would win. He can literally do whatever he wants with the universe right now.
If we go by Smash's universe, Shulk STILL WINS. People seem to forget about Shulk's Monado Arts that allow him to match anyone in speed, agility and even power thanks to Buster and Smash. He also has Vision, which he clearly used in his reveal trailer to block Marth and Link's attacks.
If we ignore the <insert expletive here>; shulk would probably be the strongest(assuming we limit to just games).
If we let the <same expletive>; flow freely sonic probably takes the title. Ala feats (honestly the comics are ridiculous) There are more, but that would open pandoras box to some of the weirdest moments in the series. And super sonic is even worse (talk about a weird take on a classic form)
I believe comparing a single game character to a series character is unfairly balanced anyway.
Nonetheless, "god" aside we can agree Sonic is "stronger" than the rest of the cast
If we ignore the <insert expletive here>; shulk would probably be the strongest(assuming we limit to just games).
If we let the <same expletive>; flow freely sonic probably takes the title. Ala feats (honestly the comics are ridiculous) There are more, but that would open pandoras box to some of the weirdest moments in the series. And super sonic is even worse (talk about a weird take on a classic form)
I believe comparing a single game character to a series character is unfairly balanced anyway.
Nonetheless, "god" aside we can agree Sonic is "stronger" than the rest of the cast
Comics Sonic is different from the Sonic in the games is he not? Either way he can speedblitz the entire cast without effort, but with a character like Shulk all he has to do is think and the battle is over. And yes, a single game vs. a series is difficult because we see development, improvement, and recession in character's abilities. Unfortunately with Shulk we only have one game to go on, and as a reality warper who essentially rebuilt a universe he is the strongest character in Smash. It's really not even close the more I examine the rest of the cast.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and the monstrosity that is PIS/CIS/WIS as I mentioned before can definitely hamper debates such as this. However, I'm going to stand by my statement that Shulk is my choice for the most powerful. As for the second most powerful, that's an entirely new discussion.
"God" Shulk can reshape the entire universe and reality itself. His Monado is also, in theory, much stronger, due to his godly powers. Also, once again in theory, "god" Shulk is essentially immortal, as the only thing that can kill him is a Monado.
So, since it's pretty clear that, in original game canon, is the strongest (god powers > everything else, of course), I have a proposal to make this thread a bit more... interesting.
In this proposal, the idea I had a page or two ago, which is taking Smash movesets and applying canonical properties to them (for instance, would still have Rest, but it wouldn't have the KO potential it does in Smash, since it doesn't function like that in Pokemon), would be applied. Moves that are Smash-original would have Smash as their canonical source. However, some restrictions apply: The entrance animation would be used only to enter the battle (so Mario can't enter/exit a pipe at will, for example), and Final Smashes are limited to one use per battle (so Sonic can't be Super Sonic for the duration of the battle). Any battles between characters, should it come to that, would take place in a ten-square mile arena, with a pure concrete floor and unbreakable solid steel walls. Nothing comes in, nothing goes out. In addition, characters' abilities (and weaknesses) would then be described in the following five categories, based on this moveset:
Strength: Offensive capabilities; how much damage they could rack up on a "punching bag" (could be a city if you like; anything that doesn't fight back). This includes physical strength, weapons, and any other ability with offensive capabilities.
Defense: How much of a beating they can take, without fighting back; basically being the "punching bag." This includes physical toughness, armor, shields, and any other ability with defensive capabilities.
Speed/Agility: Anything relating to mobility; how well the character can get around. This includes running speed, vehicles, jumping, teleportation, and any other ability that can be used to get around.
Tactics: Strategies used by the character, or abilities used to confuse the opponent. This includes mindgames, decoys, and any other potential strategies using canonized Smash moves.
Other: Anything that doesn't fit into the other categories. This includes things like Shulk's Arts, Lucario's Aura, Robin's limited Tome usage, and any other character-specific gimmick, as well as Final Smashes.
I'm open to suggestions and constructive criticism on the idea. I'll start off with an edited form of my Sonic moveset from this thread, to show what I mean:
Going with the idea of taking Smash moves and applying canonical properties to them, I've compiled a list for Sonic:
Standard Moveset
Up Smash/Dash Attack/Edge Attack/Nair: When in spinball form, Sonic's quills are hard enough and his spinning speed fast enough for him to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound. When he really gets moving, however...
Side B (Spin Dash)/Down B (Spin Charge)/Down Throw: The Spin Dash is one of Sonic's most potent attacks, launching him off at top speed (see "Other") from a standstill, all while in the damaging spinball form. Of course, this attack is also extremely damaging, since it combines the raw ripping power of the basic Spin Attack with Sonic's signature speed. Additionally, in Sonic Adventure, with the use of the Light Speed Shoes and the Crystal Ring, the Spin Dash can also charge the Light Speed Attack, which has him use a supercharged Homing Attack at light speed, striking all nearby opponents. Speaking of the Homing Attack...
Neutral B (Homing Attack): Introduced in Sonic Adventure, the Homing Attack launches Sonic in midair towards an opponent, all in the blink of an eye. This attack can be used repeatedly to strike multiple opponents, or to repeatedly blast towards the same target. If there is no target in sight, Sonic will instead perform the Jump Dash, which is basically a Homing Attack, but instead of locking onto a target, it simply launches Sonic straight forward. This is useful for crossing large gaps, especially combined with his running speed or the Spin Dash.
Up Special (Spring Jump): While Sonic can't summon a spring in the Sonic games (unless you count debug mode ), Springs are extremely useful tools for traversing the terrain, giving massive amounts of height (especially the red ones in the Genesis titles, which Sonic is using here, due to the shape, color, and sound effect of the spring), allowing him to keep his horizontal momentum while skyrocketing him upwards. The spring doesn't do any damage in the Sonic titles, however, but it can be used to disrupt movement (if you ever played a classic Sonic game, you probably know what I mean).
Up Throw: This attack takes advantage of the fact that Sonic can harden his quills at will (they are sort of floppy normally, but harden in this and his spinning attacks), and is quite damaging to anyone who falls on the quills.
All Other Attacks: Many of these come from Sonic Battle, but I haven't found any good sources as to how powerful they are there, so I'll just have Smash be the canonical source of these moves for now.
Other Properties
Jump: Sonic's jump, especially when combined with momentum, is very far-reaching in his games, and his double jumps from Colors and Lost World are pretty nice as well for crossing gaps.
Sonic is known best for his speed, with the ability to run at speeds greater than Mach 1, which is at the blistering speed of 761 mph (1,225 km/h). This is evident in many games, where Sonic is recorded to run at speeds faster than 765 mph (1,231 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He is occasionally referred to as "the fastest thing alive," and is even noted to be the fastest being in the universe.[28] Additionally, he can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes. Due to such speed, he is able to scale right up the walls of buildings, or similar structures, and can also run right over water.
It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, though it is on various occasions assumed that he can. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when the Final Egg Blaster was about to fire, Sonic defeated Ultimate Emerl in less than 30 seconds. It is also believed that Sonic can move faster while in spinball form than running, possibly even reaching the speed of light as seen in Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes where he could utilize the Light Speed Attack and the Light Speed Dash to achieve light speed movements. Also, in Sonic Unleashed, the Checkpoints, which measure his speed (SPD) in-game, can clock Sonic going over 2,800 SPD; in comparison, the Light Speed Dash measures 396 SPD. This suggests that Sonic can move at speeds far greater than the speed of light.
Sonic's speed does not seem to have certain weaknesses in that recklessness (the possibility of crashing into unintended targets) and "straight-line only" concepts are invoked, showing he has complete mastery over his speed. Sonic is additionally shown to be able to run in full tight circles, thus is not exposed to the impotency of only being able to run fast in straight lines. Should he be running at uncontrollable speeds, he can utilize the Drift to opportunely control his momentum and even crash into foes with it.
Aside from running, Sonic can also apply his super speed for other abilities. He is able to heal himself by vibrating his body at supersonic speeds, launch shockwaves by spinning in his spinball form at high speeds, create barriers of super speed for a split second, and set strong winds in motions with high-speed movements which he can use to attack opponents similar to aerokinesis.
Swimming: Yes, Sonic can swim. He swims in Smash, so that means I'm going to have to find an instance where Sonic can swim in a Sonic game. Luckily, I didn't have to go far, since he swims in the first Sonic game I ever played: Sonic Colors. In this game, Sonic can swim using his Spin Jump infinitely in water, similarly to 2D Mario games. However, he can still run out of breath, so finding air in time is key.
Final Smash: Sonic's Final Smash unleashes his most powerful attack in the game (no duh): Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic can fly, is invincible, moves even faster than normal, and can use the Super Sonic Boost. His top speed in this form is so fast that it's said he can exceed the speed of light! His power is also increased tremendously, being shown to let him smash through space fleets, break enormous metal restraints without effort, and even stun the mountain-sized boss Dark Gaia. In addition, he gains the ability to freely use multiple Chaos Powers, allowing him to teleport, create shields, shoot destructive golden waves, slow down time, and more. The aforementioned Super Sonic Boost has Sonic envelop himself in a fiery aura for as long as he so desires, which, as well as destroying nearly anything in his path, can also be used to launch projectiles back at opponents or boost through attacks to block them. However, Super Sonic can only be used for a limited time, and needs fifty Rings to initiate, which drain slowly over time.
Taunts/Entrance Animation: Sonic loves breakdancing, and his Down Taunt is no exception. Sonic's Up Taunt is a nod to the classic "finger wag," and his Side Taunt demonstrates the Super Peel Out, which is basically a Spin Dash, but without the Spin. His Entrance Animation is just the Spin Jump, nothing special there.
Now for the five categories:
Strength: While Sonic may not have the best pure physical strength, he definitely makes up for it with his use of speed in his offensive techniques. The aforementioned Spin Dash can tear through practically anything with ease, and the Light Speed Attack is one of his most impressive attacks. The Homing Attack also gives Sonic a quick, reliable aerial attack option. Sonic's weakness in this category, however, is his predictability. He doesn't have too many moves to pull from, but they all look similar, with the curling-into-a-ball theme, and they are pretty quick, so that definitely gives him an advantage.
Defense: Sonic can't take a beating very well, and relies on Rings to keep him alive. However, he can pick these Rings up after they fly out of him when he takes a hit. What Sonic lacks in toughness, though, he makes up for in evasion tactics. He has the reflexes to match his speed, and he can dodge pretty much anything you throw at him with his speed and agility. Speaking of which...
Speed/Agility: This is perhaps where Sonic stands out from the rest of the cast. Sonic is the fastest thing alive, known to run at speeds beyond Mach 1. He has even been stated to be "the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog," "hypersonic" being at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He can also use his speed to power his jump height and length, and when he jumps at full speed, he goes flying! In addition, he can bounce on Springs to gain even more height and soar over the competition.
Tactics: In addition to the aforementioned reflexes, Sonic's speed lends itself naturally to confusing opponents. He runs so fast that he can turn himself into a literal "blue blur," and this makes him very hard to hit. In addition, as mentioned above, many of his moves look similar, since they mostly rely on a hedgehog's ability to curl into a ball. This can confuse opponents as to which move Sonic will use next (in fact, the Spin Dash, the Light Speed Dash, and the Light Speed Attack all use the same move to charge).
Other: Sonic doesn't really have a "gimmick" to him like some other characters do, so I'll use this space to talk about Super Sonic. This form turns Sonic from the Blue Blur into the Golden Blur, which, while not being as catchy, amplifies his speed, defense (making him practically invincible), and power. However, this transformation is short-lived, as it requires fifty rings or more to activate, and it drains rings constantly. When the ring count reaches zero, Sonic is forced out of the transformation. However, when this happens, Sonic is restored to peak physical condition, regardless of his prior state.
Conclusion: I'd say with this huge pool of attacks, strategies, and evasion techniques, Sonic is definitely more than capable of holding his own against much of the Smash cast.
So, since it's pretty clear that, in original game canon, is the strongest (god powers > everything else, of course), I have a proposal to make this thread a bit more... interesting.
In this proposal, the idea I had a page or two ago, which is taking Smash movesets and applying canonical properties to them (for instance, would still have Rest, but it wouldn't have the KO potential it does in Smash, since it doesn't function like that in Pokemon), would be applied. Moves that are Smash-original would have Smash as their canonical source. However, some restrictions apply: The entrance animation would be used only to enter the battle (so Mario can't enter/exit a pipe at will, for example), and Final Smashes are limited to one use per battle (so Sonic can't be Super Sonic for the duration of the battle). Any battles between characters, should it come to that, would take place in a ten-square mile arena, with a pure concrete floor and unbreakable solid steel walls. Nothing comes in, nothing goes out. In addition, characters' abilities (and weaknesses) would then be described in the following five categories, based on this moveset:
Strength: Offensive capabilities; how much damage they could rack up on a "punching bag" (could be a city if you like; anything that doesn't fight back). This includes physical strength, weapons, and any other ability with offensive capabilities.
Defense: How much of a beating they can take, without fighting back; basically being the "punching bag." This includes physical toughness, armor, shields, and any other ability with defensive capabilities.
Speed/Agility: Anything relating to mobility; how well the character can get around. This includes running speed, vehicles, jumping, teleportation, and any other ability that can be used to get around.
Tactics: Strategies used by the character, or abilities used to confuse the opponent. This includes mindgames, decoys, and any other potential strategies using canonized Smash moves.
Other: Anything that doesn't fit into the other categories. This includes things like Shulk's Arts, Lucario's Aura, Robin's limited Tome usage, and any other character-specific gimmick, as well as Final Smashes.
I'm open to suggestions and constructive criticism on the idea. I'll start off with an edited form of my Sonic moveset from this thread, to show what I mean:
There's no "ifs" in this format; you take their Smash moveset, take each move in that moveset from canon, and apply it to the debate. isn't God , for instance, since he doesn't do anything of the sort in Smash.
There's no "ifs" in this format; you take their Smash moveset, take each move in that moveset from canon, and apply it to the debate. isn't God , for instance, since he doesn't do anything of the sort in Smash.
TBH, at this point we should just put Sonic and Shulk too the side, as they are in a tier of their own compared to the rest of the cast. In the interest of moving the convo forward, I recommend we "ignore" their involvement.
's Rest wouldn't have the launching properties it does in Smash, instead doing what it does in Pokemon), and I haven't found any canonical sources that state Wario's farting being able to split him in half (no, the Game Theory episode isn't canon). The closest thing I could find is 
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(Same with 
