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What I really mean is that Bowser has no fear of death, at all. Without even factoring "extra lives" or whatnot into the equation, Bowser has suffered things that SHOULD kill him, but don't.
With every character, there's usually some pretense that the character fears death: when Shulk runs out of HP, he dies in game.
Same with any character that can lose lives: that was one "timeline" that a character follows and when you return to the last "checkpoint", save game, etc., what we're kinda doing is rewinding the clock to a point where the character did NOT die but this time succeeds.
You could argue that Ganondorf does the same thing as Bowser, because he effectively does. The difference being that Ganondorf is implied to be fueled by pure darkness whereas Bowser just laughs that sh*t off, death having apparently no say on his continued existence and no amount of burying a sword in his forehead will turn him to stone.
But this also might just be due to a lack of real information regarding how and why Bowser is the way he is, using Miyamoto's lack of backstory for the argument...
What I really mean is that Bowser has no fear of death, at all. Without even factoring "extra lives" or whatnot into the equation, Bowser has suffered things that SHOULD kill him, but don't.
With every character, there's usually some pretense that the character fears death: when Shulk runs out of HP, he dies in game.
Same with any character that can lose lives: that was one "timeline" that a character follows and when you return to the last "checkpoint", save game, etc., what we're kinda doing is rewinding the clock to a point where the character did NOT die but this time succeeds.
Exactly. This makes it tough to debate this because we have villains like Ganondorf and Bowser (obviously universal, maybe multiversal threats in their strongest forms) who lose to lower-powered heroes like Mario and Link due to the plot or writing or whatever. Mario is obviously not as powerful as Bowser as far as standard abilities go, yet he wins every single battle they've had for the most part. This makes it difficult to debate where exactly these characters stand in relation to each other, and then when you factor in other universes it makes it nearly impossible. This is why it's easier to just relate power sets and general feats of current incarnations or the "signature" version of a character rather than picking and choosing what we want to debate.
Mario is obviously not as powerful as Bowser as far as standard abilities go, yet he wins every single battle they've had for the most part. This makes it difficult to debate where exactly these characters stand in relation to each other, and then when you factor in other universes it makes it nearly impossible.
No, it's not. Bowser is obviously stronger, but Mario is smarter than Bowser which explains why Bowser always build a way to kill himself while Mario figures it out.
No, it's not. Bowser is obviously stronger, but Mario is smarter than Bowser which explains why Bowser always build a way to kill himself while Mario figures it out.
Right. With prep Mario is about as good as they come because he needs to make up for his lack of power. I didn't say he wasn't smarter than Bowser, just that the gap between them power-wise is pretty obvious. But if he had prep time and prior knowledge of his opponent I think Mario has a good chance against most of the cast.
Right. With prep Mario is about as good as they come because he needs to make up for his lack of power. I didn't say he wasn't smarter than Bowser, just that the gap between them power-wise is pretty obvious. But if he had prep time and prior knowledge of his opponent I think Mario has a good chance against most of the cast.
Sonic and Samus. Sonic regularly takes down gods these days, and world-destroying monstrosities, even before factoring in Super Sonic. As Super Sonic, he becomes a cosmic-powered superhero capable of slugging it out with anything from chaos gods to a god that was devouring all of space and time.
Samus when fully upgraded and having integrated alien technologies, is quite literally a one-woman army. She regularly goes in and wipes out planets full of horrible alien beasts and Space Pirates. She fights gigantic war machines and wins. I mean, she literally endures more punishment than a lot of spacefaring vessels and dishes out the same.
I don't think anyone else is even close, honestly. Not Mew or Mewtwo, not Ganondorf, not Palutena or the others. Shadow, if we're counting Assist Trophies, but that's because he's easily Sonic's equal. But in a direct contest, I'd pick Sonic over Mewtwo, for example, easy, and same with Samus.
I think an interesting angle to the whole "who's strongest canonically" discussion would be to do this: instead of listing powers characters have in their games, we could compare the moves they have in Smash, but give them their traits from canon. For example, in Pokemon, Jigglypuff's Rest move doesn't have the powerful launching powers it does in Smash, so we'd treat it like it's treated in the games. Oh, and for moves that were invented for Smash (such as much of C. Falcon's moveset), we'll treat Smash as the canonical source for those moves.
I think an interesting angle to the whole "who's strongest canonically" discussion would be to do this: instead of listing powers characters have in their games, we could compare the moves they have in Smash, but give them their traits from canon. For example, in Pokemon, Jigglypuff's Rest move doesn't have the powerful launching powers it does in Smash, so we'd treat it like it's treated in the games. Oh, and for moves that were invented for Smash (such as much of C. Falcon's moveset), we'll treat Smash as the canonical source for those moves.
In that case, the Blue Falcon can travel at least up to 2,199 km/h, almost twice the speed of sound. Running over any living thing at that speed could probably kill them. I also don't think anyone would have a fast enough reaction time to that. Therefore Captain Falcon is the strongest.
In that case, the Blue Falcon can travel at least up to 2,199 km/h, almost twice the speed of sound. Running over any living thing at that speed could probably kill them. I also don't think anyone would have a fast enough reaction time to that. Therefore Captain Falcon is the strongest.
In that case, the Blue Falcon can travel at least up to 2,199 km/h, almost twice the speed of sound. Running over any living thing at that speed could probably kill them. I also don't think anyone would have a fast enough reaction time to that. Therefore Captain Falcon is the strongest.
Yeah, I suppose we'd have to make some restrictions on Final Smashes, entrance animations, et cetera.
On the subject of reaction time, though, does have the reaction time to match his speed, which ranges from from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h), so reacting to that shouldn't be too much of a problem.
Rosalina is using the protective bubble in-game. While it's debatable whether or not Rosalina and the Cosmic Spirit share powers, the Cosmic Spirit is definitely doing that in-game. You can't just proclaim something void due to gameplay-story segregation, with no base to back up the argument. A good example of true gameplay-story segregation would be Sonic's speed in-game, which is limited due to factors such as hardware limitations, as well as limits on human reaction time, both of which are examples of gameplay-story segregation.
Right. Sonic's been known to run at least Mach 5 in base form, and has, without pushing himself, run backwards fast enough to keep up with Tails' plane (Tails being a mechanical genius, too). Captain Falcon wouldn't expect it, but Sonic could actually leave his car in the dust.
Of course, that dust only forms a layer that adds to Captain Falcon's rugged masculinity, because of course nothing can actually diminish that. It is simply a cosmological constant. Gravity forms around celestial bodies. The universe expands. Light is both wave and particle. Captain Falcon is manly in only a way Captain Falcon can manage.
Somewhat insignificant, considering that we know that characters like Shulk, or Mario, or Pit DO have this same regenerative quality-It's just that Bowser's appeared in a crap ton of games, and theoretically, Mario or Luigi might have had to respawn more than Bowser.
Either way, I'm now thinking that it's probably best to say that the winner in a Death Battle canon fight is the one who forces his opponent to respawn first, as nearly every character can.
Somewhat insignificant, considering that we know that characters like Shulk, or Mario, or Pit DO have this same regenerative quality-It's just that Bowser's appeared in a crap ton of games, and theoretically, Mario or Luigi might have had to respawn more than Bowser.
Either way, I'm now thinking that it's probably best to say that the winner in a Death Battle canon fight is the one who forces his opponent to respawn first, as nearly every character can.
You don't get it really. Does anyone else get blown up and tossed thousands of feet and come back like nothing happened? No. Did or come back as a skeleton from falling into lava out for revenge for a second time in one game? (Dry Bones was the first really.) EDIT: Gruntilda was a skeleton in Banjo Tooie. Of course not! The Koopalings and have taken beatings too, but not nearly as badly. and fell in lava after they've been defeated in Super Mario World and was the boss for every fortress in NSMB.
is the only one who has been literally invincible for two games straight (Wario Land 2 and 3).
Spoilers have already been mentioned but yes. Shulk reshapes reality. One on one, no one is touching him without a significant amount of preparation. Like Ganondorf with the full Triforce, Fierce Deity Link, Ness after clearing his mind, etc.
Spoilers have already been mentioned but yes. Shulk reshapes reality. One on one, no one is touching him without a significant amount of preparation. Like Ganondorf with the full Triforce, Fierce Deity Link, Ness after clearing his mind, etc.
has ranged attacks you know. The Hammers from the original Super Mario Bros. and Lost Levels. Also uses fire breath in most games. Then there is the infamously funny and brutal, Bowser Bomb. would survive a hundred foot fall off a cliff no problem, everyone else..... don't get your hopes up.
Im getting Xenoblade this christmas (SO STOP SPOILING!) and will see how powerful gets but I doubt he has faster than living reflexes. And also, not one villain or hero will never be as immortal as will and not even close to Sandbag.
has ranged attacks you know. The Hammers from the original Super Mario Bros. and Lost Levels. Also uses fire breath in most games. Then there is the infamously funny and brutal, Bowser Bomb. would survive a hundred foot fall off a cliff no problem, everyone else..... don't get your hopes up.
Im getting Xenoblade this christmas (SO STOP SPOILING!) and will see how powerful gets but I doubt he has faster than living reflexes. And also, not one villain or hero will never be as immortal as will and not even close to Sandbag.
has ranged attacks you know. The Hammers from the original Super Mario Bros. and Lost Levels. Also uses fire breath in most games. Then there is the infamously funny and brutal, Bowser Bomb. would survive a hundred foot fall off a cliff no problem, everyone else..... don't get your hopes up.
Im getting Xenoblade this christmas (SO STOP SPOILING!) and will see how powerful gets but I doubt he has faster than living reflexes. And also, not one villain or hero will never be as immortal as will and not even close to Sandbag.
SG9000 is right in this case I think. Regardless of Bowser's abilities he has shown nothing on the level of restructuring an entire universe. Unless he had extensive prep time, he doesn't stand a chance. Shulk blinkstomps.
SG9000 is right in this case I think. Regardless of Bowser's abilities he has shown nothing on the level of restructuring an entire universe. Unless he had extensive prep time, he doesn't stand a chance. Shulk blinkstomps.
Going with the idea of taking Smash moves and applying canonical properties to them, I've compiled a list for Sonic:
Standard Moveset
Up Smash/Dash Attack/Edge Attack/Nair: When in spinball form, Sonic's quills are hard enough and his spinning speed fast enough for him to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound. When he really gets moving, however...
Side B (Spin Dash)/Down B (Spin Charge)/Down Throw: The Spin Dash is one of Sonic's most potent attacks, launching him off at top speed (see "Other") from a standstill, all while in the damaging spinball form. Of course, this attack is also extremely damaging, since it combines the raw ripping power of the basic Spin Attack with Sonic's signature speed. Additionally, in Sonic Adventure, with the use of the Light Speed Shoes and the Crystal Ring, the Spin Dash can also charge the Light Speed Attack, which has him use a supercharged Homing Attack at light speed, striking all nearby opponents. Speaking of the Homing Attack...
Neutral B (Homing Attack): Introduced in Sonic Adventure, the Homing Attack launches Sonic in midair towards an opponent, all in the blink of an eye. This attack can be used repeatedly to strike multiple opponents, or to repeatedly blast towards the same target. If there is no target in sight, Sonic will instead perform the Jump Dash, which is basically a Homing Attack, but instead of locking onto a target, it simply launches Sonic straight forward. This is useful for crossing large gaps, especially combined with his running speed or the Spin Dash.
Up Special (Spring Jump): While Sonic can't summon a spring in the Sonic games (unless you count debug mode ), Springs are extremely useful tools for traversing the terrain, giving massive amounts of height (especially the red ones in the Genesis titles, which Sonic is using here, due to the shape, color, and sound effect of the spring), allowing him to keep his horizontal momentum while skyrocketing him upwards. The spring doesn't do any damage in the Sonic titles, however, but it can be used to disrupt movement (if you ever played a classic Sonic game, you probably know what I mean).
Up Throw: This attack takes advantage of the fact that Sonic can harden his quills at will (they are sort of floppy normally, but harden in this and his spinning attacks), and is quite damaging to anyone who falls on the quills.
All Other Attacks: Many of these come from Sonic Battle and Sonic the Fighters, but I haven't been able to find any good sources for how powerful each move is, so I'll just treat Smash as the canonical source for these moves.
Other Properties
Jump: Sonic's jump, especially when combined with momentum, is very far-reaching in his games, and his double jumps from Colors and Lost World are pretty nice as well for crossing gaps.
Sonic is known best for his speed, with the ability to run at speeds greater than Mach 1, which is at the blistering speed of 761 mph (1,225 km/h). This is evident in many games, where Sonic is recorded to run at speeds faster than 765 mph (1,231 km/h). It is also stated in the Sonic Adventure DX manual that "He's the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog" which is at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He is occasionally referred to as "the fastest thing alive," and is even noted to be the fastest being in the universe.[28] Additionally, he can run backwards at full speed just as well as forwards, as shown in the Team Sonic opening cut-scene of Sonic Heroes. Due to such speed, he is able to scale right up the walls of buildings, or similar structures, and can also run right over water.
It is unknown how much faster Sonic can run beyond Mach 1, though it is on various occasions assumed that he can. In Sonic Battle, it is stated that he can move several times the speed of sound and when the Final Egg Blaster was about to fire, Sonic defeated Ultimate Emerl in less than 30 seconds. It is also believed that Sonic can move faster while in spinball form than running, possibly even reaching the speed of light as seen in Sonic Adventure, Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes where he could utilize the Light Speed Attack and the Light Speed Dash to achieve light speed movements. Also, in Sonic Unleashed, the Checkpoints, which measure his speed (SPD) in-game, can clock Sonic going over 2,800 SPD; in comparison, the Light Speed Dash measures 396 SPD. This suggests that Sonic can move at speeds far greater than the speed of light.
Sonic's speed does not seem to have certain weaknesses in that recklessness (the possibility of crashing into unintended targets) and "straight-line only" concepts are invoked, showing he has complete mastery over his speed. Sonic is additionally shown to be able to run in full tight circles, thus is not exposed to the impotency of only being able to run fast in straight lines. Should he be running at uncontrollable speeds, he can utilize the Drift to opportunely control his momentum and even crash into foes with it.
Aside from running, Sonic can also apply his super speed for other abilities. He is able to heal himself by vibrating his body at supersonic speeds, launch shockwaves by spinning in his spinball form at high speeds, create barriers of super speed for a split second, and set strong winds in motions with high-speed movements which he can use to attack opponents similar to aerokinesis.
Swimming: Yes, Sonic can swim. He swims in Smash, so that means I'm going to have to find an instance where Sonic can swim in a Sonic game. Luckily, I didn't have to go far, since he swims in the first Sonic game I ever played: Sonic Colors. In this game, Sonic can swim using his Spin Jump infinitely in water, similarly to 2D Mario games. However, he can still run out of breath, so finding air in time is key.
Final Smash: Sonic's Final Smash unleashes his most powerful attack in the game (no duh): Super Sonic. In this form, Sonic can fly, is invincible, moves even faster than normal, and can use the Super Sonic Boost. His top speed in this form is so fast that it's said he can exceed the speed of light! His power is also increased tremendously, being shown to let him smash through space fleets, break enormous metal restraints without effort, and even stun the mountain-sized boss Dark Gaia. In addition, he gains the ability to freely use multiple Chaos Powers, allowing him to teleport, create shields, shoot destructive golden waves, slow down time, and more. The aforementioned Super Sonic Boost has Sonic envelop himself in a fiery aura for as long as he so desires, which, as well as destroying nearly anything in his path, can also be used to launch projectiles back at opponents or boost through attacks to block them. However, Super Sonic can only be used for a limited time, and needs fifty Rings to initiate, which drain slowly over time.
Taunts/Entrance Animation: Sonic loves breakdancing, and his Down Taunt is no exception. Sonic's Up Taunt is a nod to the classic "finger wag," and his Side Taunt demonstrates the Super Peel Out, which is basically a Spin Dash, but without the Spin. His Entrance Animation is just the Spin Jump, nothing special there.
Categories
Strength: While Sonic may not have the best pure physical strength, he definitely makes up for it with his use of speed in his offensive techniques. The aforementioned Spin Dash can tear through practically anything with ease, and the Light Speed Attack is one of his most impressive attacks. The Homing Attack also gives Sonic a quick, reliable aerial attack option. Sonic's weakness in this category, however, is his predictability. He doesn't have too many moves to pull from, but they all look similar, with the curling-into-a-ball theme, and they are pretty quick, so that definitely gives him an advantage.
Defense: Sonic can't take a beating very well, and relies on Rings to keep him alive. However, he can pick these Rings up after they fly out of him when he takes a hit. What Sonic lacks in toughness, though, he makes up for in evasion tactics. He has the reflexes to match his speed, and he can dodge pretty much anything you throw at him with his speed and agility. Speaking of which...
Speed/Agility: This is perhaps where Sonic stands out from the rest of the cast. Sonic is the fastest thing alive, known to run at speeds beyond Mach 1. He has even been stated to be "the world's fastest, hypersonic hedgehog," "hypersonic" being at a staggering speed ranging from 3,840 mph (6,180 km/h) to 7,680 mph (12,360 km/h). He can also use his speed to power his jump height and length, and when he jumps at full speed, he goes flying! In addition, he can bounce on Springs to gain even more height and soar over the competition.
Tactics: In addition to the aforementioned reflexes, Sonic's speed lends itself naturally to confusing opponents. He runs so fast that he can turn himself into a literal "blue blur," and this makes him very hard to hit. In addition, as mentioned above, many of his moves look similar, since they mostly rely on a hedgehog's ability to curl into a ball. This can confuse opponents as to which move Sonic will use next (in fact, the Spin Dash, the Light Speed Dash, and the Light Speed Attack all use the same move to charge).
Other: Sonic doesn't really have a "gimmick" to him like some other characters do, so I'll use this space to talk about Super Sonic. This form turns Sonic from the Blue Blur into the Golden Blur, which, while not being as catchy, amplifies his speed, defense (making him practically invincible), and power. However, this transformation is short-lived, as it requires fifty rings or more to activate, and it drains rings constantly. When the ring count reaches zero, Sonic is forced out of the transformation. However, when this happens, Sonic is restored to peak physical condition, regardless of his prior state.
Conclusion: I'd say with this huge pool of attacks, strategies, and evasion techniques, Sonic is definitely more than capable of holding his own against much of the Smash cast.
Warping reality? That is kinda cowardly since real villains warp minds to do their biding to the death. If couldn't do that he would lose to everyone? The only thing I know that his special achievement is using a lightsaber with powers that give him advantages that come with disadvantages.
Up Smash/Dash Attack/Edge Attack/Nair: When in spinball form, Sonic's quills are hard enough and his spinning speed fast enough for him to slice through battleships without even moving at the speed of sound. When he really gets moving, however..
If we put some smash abilities 's fully charged waft has enough force to spilt himself in HALF! Even with smash, in Wario land 2/3 can be spilt in two by a laser and come together with no injures.
Warping reality? That is kinda cowardly since real villains warp minds to do their biding to the death. If couldn't do that he would lose to everyone? The only thing I know that his special achievement is using a lightsaber with powers that give him advantages that come with disadvantages.
Warping reality? That is kinda cowardly since real villains warp minds to do their biding to the death. If couldn't do that he would lose to everyone? The only thing I know that his special achievement is using a lightsaber with powers that give him advantages that come with disadvantages.
I'm not sure what you mean. He's not a villain. His "special achievement" is literally restructuring a universe. He is omniscient and potentially omnipotent. I don't really see an argument against him being the strongest character in the cast.
I'm not sure what you mean. He's not a villain. His "special achievement" is literally restructuring a universe. He is omniscient and potentially omnipotent. I don't really see an argument against him being the strongest character in the cast.
Obviously it's Ganondorf. Didn't he basically conquer the world and isn't he more or less immortal? Triforce of Power is so overpowered it's just plain broken :/
Obviously it's Ganondorf. Didn't he basically conquer the world and isn't he more or less immortal? Triforce of Power is so overpowered it's just plain broken :/
I've stated in numerous posts in this thread that Ganondorf is one of the top three strongest. His feats just pale in comparison to Shulk. Ganondorf with the full Triforce would be an interesting matchup for him, however.
If we put some smash abilities 's fully charged waft has enough force to spilt himself in HALF! Even with smash, in Wario land 2/3 can be spilt in two by a laser and come together with no injures.
Remember, it's about taking Smash movesets and applying canonical properties (so, for instance, 's Rest wouldn't have the launching properties it does in Smash, instead doing what it does in Pokemon), and I haven't found any canonical sources that state Wario's farting being able to split him in half (no, the Game Theory episode isn't canon). The closest thing I could find is his page on Super Mario Wiki stating that "In Super Mario Strikers Charged Wario also has the power of farting to stun his [opponents]." Since Wario is known to break wind in his own games, we won't be placing it under the category of Smash-original moves, either. If you do find a source for Wario's waft having that much power, however, I'd love to see it. It would definitely be interesting to see the origins of one of his most unique attacks!
HYES
