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The Merriam Dictionary is not an authoritative source on these matters. You should have went with NASA instead. From this source, "For aircraft speeds which are greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be supersonic" (bold in original source). And from here, "3. Supersonic conditions occur for Mach numbers greater than one, 1 < M < 5. The flow through the expansion bell of the nozzle is typically in this regime. Compressibility effects are also important for the external rocket because shock waves are generated by the surface of the rocket. For high supersonic speeds, 3 < M < 5, aerodynamic heating also becomes very important for rocket design." (bold in original source) Simply put, Mach 1 is the speed of sound. It is not supersonic, which from the Latin means "above sound".
You will also notice the word "regime". This refers to the flow regime. This is what I mean by "tier". And more interesting is the fact that NASA separates "supersonic" into two parts: low supersonic and high supersonic speeds. There's that plural word again. They do this with hypersonic speeds as well, where low hypersonic is from what I understand, Mach 5 to Mach 10, and high hypersonic speeds are from Mach 10 and higher. So considering high supersonic is ranged from Mach 3 to Mach 5, I think it's safe to say that "supersonic speeds" means Samus' low-end would be Mach 2.
As for descriptions, I recant what I said, but still maintain that Nintendo doesn't provide for specifics when it comes to tech specs. We know Samus is 90 kg. and 1.9 m. tall, according to the Metroid II: Return of Samus manual. We don't know where the range for "supersonic speeds" and "multi-terawatt", however. This is why looking to real data provided by NASA or by a reputable source is the next step.
When I click the first link, I see them defining "supersonic" as exactly what I said in a previous post. When I click the second link, I see, at the top of the page, written in large letters:
"Supersonic
Mach > 1.0"
In other words, "supersonic is a speed greater than Mach 1.0."
"For aircraft speeds which are greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be supersonic" I know that. That's exactly what I'm saying. "Supersonic" means "greater than the speed of sound." "Greater than the speed of sound" implies, by itself, no higher speed than Mach 1.000000(etc.)01. Even your own sources say exactly what I've been saying all this time. There's no reason to assume that "dash at supersonic speeds" means Mach 2.
When I click the first link, I see them defining "supersonic" as exactly what I said in a previous post. When I click the second link, I see, at the top of the page, written in large letters:
"Supersonic
Mach > 1.0"
In other words, "supersonic is a speed greater than Mach 1.0."
"For aircraft speeds which are greater than the speed of sound, the aircraft is said to be supersonic" I know that. That's exactly what I'm saying. "Supersonic" means "greater than the speed of sound." "Greater than the speed of sound" implies, by itself, no higher speed than Mach 1.000000(etc.)01. Even your own sources say exactly what I've been saying all this time. There's no reason to assume that "dash at supersonic speeds" means Mach 2.
But you didn't. I was pretty sure you said we can only say Samus is traveling Mach 1. Transonic speed falls between Mach 0.8 and Mach 1.2, meaning that even Mach 1.1 would be transonic. You saying Mach 1.000000(etc.)01 is considered supersonic is incorrect.
But you didn't. I was pretty sure you said we can only say Samus is traveling Mach 1. Transonic speed falls between Mach 0.8 and Mach 1.2, meaning that even Mach 1.1 would be transonic. You saying Mach 1.000000(etc.)01 is considered supersonic is incorrect.
"Transonic
Mach = 1.0" (not Mach 0.8 - 1.2)
"Supersonic
Mach > 1.0" (includes Mach 1.000000(etc.)01)
All this time, I was defining "supersonic" as more than Mach 1, and I also said that we can only be sure that she's travelling just above Mach 1, since that's all the use of the word "supersonic" tells us.
When people start throwing out NASA information in order to prove something about Sonic, i think it's to stop.
Also, i love how you mention that we're talking about the characters within Smash canon in order to disprove what i said about Link's items even saying that Smash Link is simply the one from Twilight Princess, yet you throw Sonic's items, transformations and now complete definitions of what NASA mention Transonic and Supersonic is as proof that Sonic can win.
Guys. Let's be real here.
Kirby is the strongest of all.
I'd like to point out he can be anything, and he has toppled god-like beings all by himself.
Kirby don't need no Monado
When people start throwing out NASA information in order to prove something about Sonic, i think it's to stop.
Also, i love how you mention that we're talking about the characters within Smash canon in order to disprove what i said about Link's items even saying that Smash Link is simply the one from Twilight Princess, yet you throw Sonic's items, transformations and now complete definitions of what NASA mention Transonic and Supersonic is as proof that Sonic can win.
Technically, it's about Samus But yeah, I think it might be time to stop this little tangent now.
The difference between Sonic and Link is that Link is a different person, a different entity altogether in each game, while there's only one Sonic. The same Sonic has used the Emeralds, the Shields, and all his moves from the Sonic series. Each Link, on the other hand, has used a completely different arsenal of tools, weapons, and armor. For instance, Twilight Princess Link () has used all the items in this list (which, I must say, is a rather impressive arsenal).
Blinking takes approximately 300 milliseconds. Using t = d/v, where t is time, d is distance, and v is average velocity, it would only take Sonic 300 ms to cover 514 meters (1,686 ft.). In Samus' case, she'd be able to cover 205 m. (672.564 ft.) in close to 300 ms. Anyway, even if Shulk can warp reality, considering Sonic and Samus aren't part of his universe, how would he be able to remove them from existence? And more importantly, would Shulk do that?
If we're going by canon feats then you can be sure that Shulk can reality warp regardless of whether or not Sonic and Samus originate from his universe. He's a god. Regardless of if Sonic or Samus speedblitz him, and then unleash everything they had, he wouldn't have a scratch. And then he'd laugh them into nonexistence for good measure.
I like your point about whether he would do that or not, though. Morals on/off is usually a condition stated at the beginning of the debate. Obviously Mario with morals on is going to battle differently than with morals off. In Shulk's case, he'd probably at least entertain the fight with morals on. With morals off, he wouldn't waste his time.
If we're going by canon feats then you can be sure that Shulk can reality warp regardless of whether or not Sonic and Samus originate from his universe. He's a god. Regardless of if Sonic or Samus speedblitz him, and then unleash everything they had, he wouldn't have a scratch. And then he'd laugh them into nonexistence for good measure.
I like your point about whether he would do that or not, though. Morals on/off is usually a condition stated at the beginning of the debate. Obviously Mario with morals on is going to battle differently than with morals off. In Shulk's case, he'd probably at least entertain the fight with morals on. With morals off, he wouldn't waste his time.
Well, technically, Shulk is only a deity of his world, so it's debatable whether he'd have power over the other characters or the place where the battle happens (assuming it takes place somewhere outside the characters' respective home worlds).
D'oh! I forgot the kritters from the Sonic series being turned into robots. But Sonic games are more light-hearted than Rare's games. (Kompare Banjo-Kazooie to Tooie.) Instead of the oppressed being freed once beaten, K. Rool's stays oppressed no matter what. I'm not saying Robotnik isn't krazy, but he hasn't been seen being krool to even the none once-living robots, yet at least. Maybe when he finally kracks.
Sonic games have dealt with themes of suicide (both jokingly and seriously), have had a character canonically diagnosed with NIDS (Maria Robotnik), and even Sonic himself has shown to be pretty ruthless and unforgiving on certain occasions (most notably in Sonic and the Secret Rings, he displays is ruthless side on multiple occasions in that game), among many other things.
Sonic is a much darker series overall than the majority of Nintendo's and Rare's (in Rare's case, Conker's Bad Fur Day is darker than Sonic, though). I'd even put it above Zelda in terms of just how dark it has gotten at times. Even Sonic Lost World, while light-hearted on the surface, has some VERY dark humour, not to mention that the Zeti perform a mass genocide in it, and we are given a very direct implication of this through Amy seemingly dying while communicating with Sonic (and since Knuckles was with Amy during these events, he's gone too). And Zavok proceeds to taunt Sonic over this.
And here you show that you don't understand gameplay-story segregation.
The term refers to instances in which gameplay and story have to be separated because they contradict each other. It does not mean "only cutscene material is canon". This wouldn't make any sense, since many games today do not even have cutscenes and integrate story telling and character development into the gameplay.
Rosalina needing Mario's help is void because her asking for help made no sense based on what we know she can definitely do. It makes even less sense now that 3D World is out, since even when she's using a very stripped down move pool, she's still more competent than Mario - in 3D World, Rosalina without power-ups easily outmaneuvers Mario without power-ups every time, and even if Mario is helped by power-ups, Rosalina still wins in most cases. Same applies with Rosalina VS Luigi/Peach/Toad in 3D World.
Super Mario Galaxy is a platforming adventure game, so by virtue of the platforming adventure game that Rosalina was playable in alone, Rosalina is much more competent than Mario at Mario's own job, and therefore didn't need Mario to defeat Bowser in Galaxy. We can literally make Rosalina defeat Bowser in a Mario game, which implies that the creators of the last few Mario games see her as capable of doing so.
Again, Rosalina was a late addition to Galaxy as a main character - she was originally planned to be a minor character with a completely different design, but the development team really liked her, and despite Miyamoto initially not liking the idea of making her a main character, he gave in when Yoshiaki Koizumi showed him the her planned back story, so long as Rosalina would only be in the original Mario Galaxy game (though this has obviously changed - since she is such a popular character, Miyamoto has since decided that she deserves to be a staple character of the franchise). This point easily explains why Rosalina's powers and role contradict her asking for Mario's help - they couldn't retool the entire game to incorporate her into Mario's story, so they just slapped in her "needing" help and hoped people would have an absurdly large suspension of disbelief.
And if you take into account Rosalina's powers in every game she's been in, as well as her effective god role in the Mario universe as displayed in Galaxy (which is has nothing to do with the Lumas - it was never implied that the Luma's were anything to do with the universal recreation, especially since not every Luma transformed into a galaxy, since Young Master Luma exists in both Galaxy games), then we can outright deduce Rosalina as above pretty much every character in Smash (except Shulk, who would be debatable and is seemingly on par with her - though Rosalina has more experience over him, since she has done the whole universal reboot thing multiple times and has lived under the same body and conscience for an immeasurable amount of time).
Came to this thread again for the craic, and oh lord, the ignorance of some people here is astounding.
Sonic games have dealt with themes of suicide (both jokingly and seriously), have had a character canonically diagnosed with NIDS (Maria Robotnik), and even Sonic himself has shown to be pretty ruthless and unforgiving on certain occasions (most notably in Sonic and the Secret Rings, he displays is ruthless side on multiple occasions in that game), among many other things.
Sonic is a much darker series overall than the majority of Nintendo's and Rare's (in Rare's case, Conker's Bad Fur Day is darker than Sonic, though). I'd even put it above Zelda in terms of just how dark it has gotten at times. Even Sonic Lost World, while light-hearted on the surface, has some VERY dark humour, not to mention that the Zeti perform a mass genocide in it, and we are given a very direct implication of this through Amy seemingly dying while communicating with Sonic (and since Knuckles was with Amy during these events, he's gone too). And Zavok proceeds to taunt Sonic over this.
And here you show that you don't understand gameplay-story segregation.
The term refers to instances in which gameplay and story have to be separated because they contradict each other. It does not mean "only cutscene material is canon". This wouldn't make any sense, since many games today do not even have cutscenes and integrate story telling and character development into the gameplay.
Rosalina needing Mario's help is void because her asking for help made no sense based on what we know she can definitely do. It makes even less sense now that 3D World is out, since even when she's using a very stripped down move pool, she's still more competent than Mario - in 3D World, Rosalina without power-ups easily outmaneuvers Mario without power-ups every time, and even if Mario is helped by power-ups, Rosalina still wins in most cases. Same applies with Rosalina VS Luigi/Peach/Toad in 3D World.
Super Mario Galaxy is a platforming adventure game, so by virtue of the platforming adventure game that Rosalina was playable in alone, Rosalina is much more competent than Mario at Mario's own job, and therefore didn't need Mario to defeat Bowser in Galaxy. We can literally make Rosalina defeat Bowser in a Mario game, which implies that the creators of the last few Mario games see her as capable of doing so.
Again, Rosalina was a late addition to Galaxy as a main character - she was originally planned to be a minor character with a completely different design, but the development team really liked her, and despite Miyamoto initially not liking the idea of making her a main character, he gave in when Yoshiaki Koizumi showed him the her planned back story, so long as Rosalina would only be in the original Mario Galaxy game (though this has obviously changed - since she is such a popular character, Miyamoto has since decided that she deserves to be a staple character of the franchise). This point easily explains why Rosalina's powers and role contradict her asking for Mario's help - they couldn't retool the entire game to incorporate her into Mario's story, so they just slapped in her "needing" help and hoped people would have an absurdly large suspension of disbelief.
And if you take into account Rosalina's powers in every game she's been in, as well as her effective god role in the Mario universe as displayed in Galaxy (which is has nothing to do with the Lumas - it was never implied that the Luma's were anything to do with the universal recreation, especially since not every Luma transformed into a galaxy, since Young Master Luma exists in both Galaxy games), then we can outright deduce Rosalina as above pretty much every character in Smash (except Shulk, who would be debatable and is seemingly on par with her - though Rosalina has more experience over him, since she has done the whole universal reboot thing multiple times and has lived under the same body and conscience for an immeasurable amount of time).
Just a question since you seem knowledgeable about this, but have we seen rosalina do anything in these games? I see a lot of heresy and allusions to here abilities..
Just a question since you seem knowledgeable about this, but have we seen rosalina do anything in these games? I see a lot of heresy and allusions to here abilities..
Now to provide images and what not of all of those abilities of Rosalina I pointed out before, where I can, and a more detailed explanation where I can get no image:
Platforming Prowess & Spin Attack
Protective Shield
She also does it in the Galaxy games when you attempt to jump, spin, or shoot Star Bits at her.
Teleportation
Also, see her roll animation in Smash.
Control over gravity
I don't know where I can find a video of an LPer doing it in Galaxy so I can't provide an image in this, but most people know how when you jump off the Observatory in Galaxy, Rosalina pulls you back to safety. Also, her control over gravity is implemented into her Smash moveset in a few different ways, such as her down special, "Gravitational Pull".
Self levitation and flight
We all know how she generally levitates for her "standing" animation in pretty much every game she's in. No need to explain that part.
For flight though:
Can create doppelgangers of herself (Cosmic Spirit)
I want to go into some detail on this point:
Some people like to claim that the "Cosmic Spirit" is not actually Rosalina, and instead is Rosalina's equivalent to "Cosmic Mario/Luigi". These guys are the result of Prankster Comets causing havok.
However, three key things disprove that theory, and prove it's actually Rosalina:
1) The Cosmic Spirit doesn't show up when Prankster Comets are present, it appears independently of them. It specifically shows up when Mario is struggling in his mission, and offers assistance. Cosmic Mario, on the other hand, only shows up when a Prankster Comet is present, and is mischievous and wants to get in Mario's way.
2) Compare the appearance of Cosmic Mario with the Cosmic Spirit:
Cosmic Mario is completely featureless, and it's even difficult to differentiate it's clothing.
The Cosmic Spirit is more clearly shaped like Rosalina. And notice how it has Rosalina's genuine crown, earrings, broach, and wand. Not only that, but it, again, only seeks to help Mario, like a friend.
3) Cosmic Mario speaks gibberish, and has an extremely high pitched, distorted voice. He sounds absolutely nothing like Mario. However, the Cosmic Spirit can speak proper English:
Not only that, but it's voice clips are identical to Rosalina's voice. Has the same echo Rosalina's voice has and all (something Cosmic Mario does not have).
--------------------
The only conclusion that can be drawn is that Cosmic Mario is an abomination - an unnatural, inaccurate clone of Mario. He has a completely off personality, voice, and rough appearance.
The Cosmic Spirit, on the other hand, is a deliberate clone, and even features Rosalina's genuine accessories. And since we know she possesses control over cosmic elements, it's not far fetched to believe it was her who made it. Who else would have made such an accurate clone, featuring her seemingly real accessories?
Mind control
Since we've already disclosed that the Cosmic Spirit is indeed a clone of Rosalina created by herself, that means the Cosmic Spirit's manner of helping Mario - taking control of his mind to help him where he fails - is an ability Rosalina has command over.
Can change size at will
Control over the universe's rebirth
The visual implications of Mario Galaxy's endings are pretty clear cut, so I'm not going to explain that.
Instead, I will make the assumption that Rosalina is not in control of the rebirth of the universe. Now, let's talk about the gaping plot holes that come from such a viewpoint:
-Rosalina herself states that whenever the universe is reborn, "the cycle repeats itself, but never in quite the same way.". If this is the case, why is it that Rosalina herself, and everything she cherishes, remains unchanged? Why does specifically everything related to her remain the same after the universe's rebirth (this includes Mario and his friends)? If you believe this is a completely natural, indiscriminate process that Rosalina has absolutely no control over, how do you explain Rosalina and her most dearest friends and locations remain completely unchanged?
-Rosalina's knowledge of this cycle in the first place proves that this isn't the first time she's been through it, and that she hasn't lost her memory from universe rebirth to rebirth.
-Whether you want to believe Rosalina is a goddess or not, she describes herself as "watcher and protector of the cosmos". That's a pretty important role. It seems a bit uncharacteristic for someone of such a position, to be left to the whim of a natural, indiscriminate process, therefore, potentially losing this role and having it passed on to someone less suitable (or nobody at all). Which could potentially leave the next incarnation of the universe in an unruly state.
-She willingly lets this process happen. As if she has confidence things will be fine in the next universe, that things won't be out of hand, and that she will still be there to watch over the cosmos. If she had no control over the process, she would not display such confidence, especially since Lumas are essentially dying as all of this is happening, and potentially Mario's friends too. We outright watch as everything turns to nothing, while a small, contained area with Rosalina and Mario exists, and later, Mario finds himself waking up from an unconscious state, along with everyone else - except Rosalina, who is conscious throughout this entire process. Another hint she drops is when she says, "Yes....all life carries the essence of stars...even all of you...". All life carries the essence of stars. Rosalina has control over cosmic elements and a whole lot more. Stars are a cosmic element. Anything that contains it's essence is something Rosalina can control the creation of.
Outside of Shulk, the only other Smash character/s that I think are on par with Rosalina, I have not really seen mentioned here - Master Hand & Crazy Hand. Master Hand embodies creation in the Smash universe, while Rosalina embodies creation in the Mario universe. Crazy Hand embodies destruction, and Rosalina also has the capacity to be destructive.
Though, I suppose Intensity 9.0 in Smash Wii U makes a very good case for Rosalina even there...and many other characters.
uhhh you're forgetting like 10 people that could probably survive in mahvel
to elaborate: Mario and Luigi crush deities with pure athleticism, Ness and friends have the power to destroy a cosmic horror to a point(Ness finds out in his magicant that he possesses limitless PSI power), Kirby destroys cosmic horrors on a daily basis(not to mention can absorb the powers of his opponents, which may give him an even further edge) Yoshi's digestive system can withstand FIRE, Captain Falcon is just Captain Falcon, and Fox and Falco have super human jumping ability and speed.
uhhh you're forgetting like 10 people that could probably survive in mahvel
to elaborate: Mario and Luigi crush deities with pure athleticism, Ness and friends have the power to destroy a cosmic horror to a point(Ness finds out in his magicant that he possesses limitless PSI power), Kirby destroys cosmic horrors on a daily basis(not to mention can absorb the powers of his opponents, which may give him an even further edge) Yoshi's digestive system can withstand FIRE, Captain Falcon is just Captain Falcon, and Fox and Falco have super human jumping ability and speed.
Yeah...I spent way too little time on that too be taken seriously. Kirby and ness I agree with but yoshi,fox,and falco? idk, at best they could serve as shield agents..
Sonic and Super Sonic aren't different characters; they're one entity. The former can turn into the latter with the use of the Chaos Emeralds (or Hyper Sonic with the use of the Super Emeralds), which would put in Super Sonic's spot.
Sonic and Super Sonic aren't different characters; they're one entity. The former can turn into the latter with the use of the Chaos Emeralds (or Hyper Sonic with the use of the Super Emeralds), which would put in Super Sonic's spot.
Unlike other "god" characters, he cannot simply exist in it under all conditions. Thus it has to be considered seperately...Like samus vs Zero suit samus.
Unlike other "god" characters, he cannot simply exist in it under all conditions. Thus it has to be considered seperately...Like samus vs Zero suit samus.
A) Exactly, which is why it shouldn't be considered separate. If it runs out in the middle of a battle, Super Sonic turns into Sonic, which means they are one in the same. Also, canonically (which is the point of this topic), Super Sonic is an ability of Sonic's, rather than its own entity, and Samus and Zero Suit are also the same character, canonically.
B) As does pretty much every move that uses something that is not part of the character (Link's bow, for example; it needs arrows, and Link needs to have gotten the bow in the first place, since he doesn't have it from the beginning). If Link, for example, can have arrows and a bow (along with his other items), then Sonic can have Rings and the Emeralds.
Sonic and Super Sonic aren't different characters; they're one entity. The former can turn into the latter with the use of the Chaos Emeralds (or Hyper Sonic with the use of the Super Emeralds), which would put in Super Sonic's spot.
Only problem is Takashi Iizuka has confirmed (not long before Lost World, so it was fairly recent) that the Super Emeralds, along with the forms they granted, are all non-canon, and that they were simply added for those dedicated players who owned and played the crap out of S3&K.
This somewhat goes against how Yuji Naka went out of his way to give an explanation as to why Tails cannot go Super with the Chaos Emeralds but can with Super Emeralds (his youth and lack of experience meant that even the Chaos Emeralds could not amplify his power enough to go Super, but the Super Emeralds were strong enought to give him the power).
A) Exactly, which is why it shouldn't be considered separate. If it runs out in the middle of a battle, Super Sonic turns into Sonic, which means they are one in the same. Also, canonically (which is the point of this topic), Super Sonic is an ability of Sonic's, rather than its own entity, and Samus and Zero Suit are also the same character, canonically.
B) As does pretty much every move that uses something that is not part of the character (Link's bow, for example; it needs arrows, and Link needs to have gotten the bow in the first place, since he doesn't have it from the beginning). If Link, for example, can have arrows and a bow (along with his other items), then Sonic can have Rings and the Emeralds.
In regards to point A, this is exactly why they must be kept seperate. Sonic is ludicrously weaker than his super form (I mean time travel really?) to the point that in any boss battle super sonic is engaged in sonic dies if he reverts.
In regards to point B, arrows explosives energy these are common place in their universes. The chaos emeralds are significantly less likely to be held by sonic at any given point in the series. In short, arrows and a bow are not quite as rare as the chaos emeralds which hold unfathomable power).
Only problem is Takashi Iizuka has confirmed (not long before Lost World, so it was fairly recent) that the Super Emeralds, along with the forms they granted, are all non-canon, and that they were simply added for those dedicated players who owned and played the crap out of S3&K.
This somewhat goes against how Yuji Naka went out of his way to give an explanation as to why Tails cannot go Super with the Chaos Emeralds but can with Super Emeralds (his youth and lack of experience meant that even the Chaos Emeralds could not amplify his power enough to go Super, but the Super Emeralds were strong enought to give him the power).
Games > interviews about said games. A recent interview regarding the new Captain Toad game said that Toads have no gender, when they obviously do (Toadette). Whether they were a workaround or not, they were present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, a canon game, as a form Sonic can take in that canon game.
In regards to point A, this is exactly why they must be kept seperate. Sonic is ludicrously weaker than his super form (I mean time travel really?) to the point that in any boss battle super sonic is engaged in sonic dies if he reverts.
In regards to point B, arrows explosives energy these are common place in their universes. The chaos emeralds are significantly less likely to be held by sonic at any given point in the series. In short, arrows and a bow are not quite as rare as the chaos emeralds which hold unfathomable power).
A) Yes, the "Super" version of Sonic is more powerful than Sonic when he's not in the more powerful state. Your point is? The fact that Super Sonic enhances Sonic's abilities doesn't mean they're two separate characters. By that logic, "Super" Mario (after he's gotten a Super Mushroom) and Small Mario (when he's hit as Super Mario) are two different characters, because the former has "Super" in the name, as well as more abilities (such as breaking Brick Blocks).
B) I'm pretty sure there's only one bow (or one of any item really) in each Zelda game, and you basically have to go through a dungeon to get them the majority of the time. Likewise, there's only one of each Emerald, and you have to go through a special stage to get them (or you just get them as the story progresses in most 3D games). As for Rings, they're as commonplace, if not more commonplace, than arrows.
Sonic games have dealt with themes of suicide (both jokingly and seriously), have had a character canonically diagnosed with NIDS (Maria Robotnik), and even Sonic himself has shown to be pretty ruthless and unforgiving on certain occasions (most notably in Sonic and the Secret Rings, he displays is ruthless side on multiple occasions in that game), among many other things.
Sonic is a much darker series overall than the majority of Nintendo's and Rare's (in Rare's case, Conker's Bad Fur Day is darker than Sonic, though). I'd even put it above Zelda in terms of just how dark it has gotten at times. Even Sonic Lost World, while light-hearted on the surface, has some VERY dark humour, not to mention that the Zeti perform a mass genocide in it, and we are given a very direct implication of this through Amy seemingly dying while communicating with Sonic (and since Knuckles was with Amy during these events, he's gone too). And Zavok proceeds to taunt Sonic over this.
Oh s***! I wish I knew that because I didn't! From my knowledge Bowser an Plankton are as tame as E-rated villains get. Eggman is crossing the line.... K. Rool and the Panther King tear it apart like some sucker in their way!
Not only villains should have effected it but moments like Mimi's boss intro is downright terrifying for a 6 year old to look at! Twilight Princess is one of the worst when it comes to this. When we were young, the main games we played on the PS2 was Battlefront 1,2 and Spongebob Squarepants the Movie Game. BF1 was rated Teen for the Star Wars violence it that Star Wars was know for, BF2 was the same but the Clone Troopers would occasionally cuss, SBStMG was the (pseudo-)sequel to BFFBB which were both E-rated. When we got the Wii the SPM on chapter 7 (i think,) and got to the Mimi boss intro both of us where like, AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! Because of the snapping of her neck was the last thing for a kid, playing and E-RATED!!!!!!, game to expect.
One last thing, can you deny that King K. Rool (aka Kaptian K. Rool, aka Baron K. Roolstein, aka Krusha K. Rool,) is the most realistic villain here?
Games > interviews about said games. A recent interview regarding the new Captain Toad game said that Toads have no gender, when they obviously do (Toadette). Whether they were a workaround or not, they were present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, a canon game, as a form Sonic can take in that canon game.
A) Yes, the "Super" version of Sonic is more powerful than Sonic when he's not in the more powerful state. Your point is? The fact that Super Sonic enhances Sonic's abilities doesn't mean they're two separate characters. By that logic, "Super" Mario (after he's gotten a Super Mushroom) and Small Mario (when he's hit as Super Mario) are two different characters, because the former has "Super" in the name, as well as more abilities (such as breaking Brick Blocks).
B) I'm pretty sure there's only one bow (or one of any item really) in each Zelda game, and you basically have to go through a dungeon to get them the majority of the time. Likewise, there's only one of each Emerald, and you have to go through a special stage to get them (or you just get them as the story progresses in most 3D games). As for Rings, they're as commonplace, if not more commonplace, than arrows.
Super sonic is not a different charachter (unless were talking archie comics) BUT, It is a specialized state, in which the rules of combat shift. This is akin to the old rankings in DBZ strength, were they seperated out all the different forms of goku vegeta and cell, to rank them. Just because they are the same being, doesn't mean we cannot seperate their states in order to more accurately portray their relative strengths.
The difference between Sonics Emeralds and Link's Arrows is this. Gameplay mechanics and Story involvement. Link spends most if not all of the game with certain objects that become part of his character and are unique to him. Sonic on the other hand rarely uses the emeralds in comparison to Shadow. It's fairly unlikely for sonic to possess all 7 emeralds at any given moment, where as Link practically sleeps with the master sword.
Could a case be made that K. Rool might not be the most "evil" villain, per se, but the most irredeemable based on his actions?
Nonstop pollution, torturous treatment of both foes and allies, remorseless punishment and death penalties for insubordinate minions, imperialistic tendencies, waging a war of attrition through starving the Kongs, frequent kidnappings, disregard for life, general hatred and d***ishness, dishonesty and cheating. . .
When we had this discussion in here a while back, the only remotely "positive" quality K. Rool has that anyone came up with was "he looks like he's having fun when he's being evil." That's when you know there's a strong case to be made.
Games > interviews about said games. A recent interview regarding the new Captain Toad game said that Toads have no gender, when they obviously do (Toadette). Whether they were a workaround or not, they were present in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, a canon game, as a form Sonic can take in that canon game.
I'm pretty sure the Captain Toad interview was referring to "sex", but they felt they couldn't use that word, and used gender instead, since for some reason, a lot of people think they both mean the same thing.
What I took from that interview is "Toad's have no sex, but they can be whatever gender they feel like being". Again, gender is an extremely misused word, in that many people think it's a synonym for sex, when it only refers to one's mental sex (whether they feel like they are masculine or feminine), where as "sex" in this context means whether or not you are biologically male or female.
It's not the first time I have heard that mentioned about Toads either.
Also, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is not canon. Sonic 3 is. Sonic & Knuckles is. But S3&K is not. It's a bonus for owning the two previous games.
And I'm afraid interviews do mean more than games in cases like this.
If, hypothetically speaking, an interview came out in which Miyamoto or Yoshiaki Koizumi stated that Rosalina was actually not very powerful, or described some limit to her power, I would retract much of what I have said about her in this topic, as much as I'd hate to (since I think her ominous and mysterious and awesome power is part of her appeal).
Similarly, if the producer of the Sonic franchise who did work on S3&K, is saying the Super Emeralds and everything they brought are non-canon, then we have to accept that as being the case.
I love what the Super Emeralds brought as much as the next guy, but in actuality, their being canon or not is kinda meaningless to Sonic himself - Super Sonic has, canonically, been given enough abilities to the point where he is more powerful than what we have seen of Hyper Sonic. Maybe not quite as invincible (I'd have to double check), but in terms of abilities, he has. Which is why, even if you don't consider that he is non-canon, Hyper Sonic is irrelevant.
Super sonic is not a different charachter (unless were talking archie comics) BUT, It is a specialized state, in which the rules of combat shift. This is akin to the old rankings in DBZ strength, were they seperated out all the different forms of goku vegeta and cell, to rank them. Just because they are the same being, doesn't mean we cannot seperate their states in order to more accurately portray their relative strengths.
The difference between Sonics Emeralds and Link's Arrows is this. Gameplay mechanics and Story involvement. Link spends most if not all of the game with certain objects that become part of his character and are unique to him. Sonic on the other hand rarely uses the emeralds in comparison to Shadow. It's fairly unlikely for sonic to possess all 7 emeralds at any given moment, where as Link practically sleeps with the master sword.
Actually, Sonic can have the emeralds on hand quite regularly. In Sonic 2, you could actually get all 7 emeralds within the first zone (first two levels of the game). In Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, you could get them all within the first two zones. Basically meaning you can play through the entirety of these games with the emeralds on hand. And Link does not practically sleep on the Master Sword, he has to go out of his way to obtain it each game.
Though, I believe this discussion should go by ScrewAttack's "Death Battle" logic - we assume that characters have access to all of their canon and recurring weapons, armour, tools, abilities, etc.
For example, Super Emeralds are straight up non-canon, and Sonic lost the Werehog transformation, and can only use Darkspines Sonic and Excalibur Sonic within their respective book worlds. So none of these would factor into it when we discuss Sonic.
However, the Chaos Emeralds are a recurring tool of his, and are a big part of his character. He can also use Chaos Control with a fake Chaos Emerald, which is pretty amazing. So I would count stuff like that.
Similarly, Link's tools would depend on the individual Link in question, but whichever Link we discuss (I would assume TP Link, since he is the one in Smash 4) should be granted all of his weapons, tools, and abilities.
TP Link is one of the strongest (but not the strongest) Links, so that's not a bad deal. He was trained in sword combat by the Hero of Time himself.
Simple, K. Rool. You know Hitler, Stalin? He's like those guys! The Kongs would win against him since they did. No one else at Nintendo could stand his kroolness....
I'd say canon and staple/recurring abilities, as well as ones that have big relevance to the plot of the game.
For example, Rosalina may have only been directly seen doing the universe reboot once on camera, but it was a huge plot point. So it's worth considering. Same with Sonic being able to use Chaos Control with a fake emerald.
I also feel it's OK to use Smash itself as a reference as long as the move in question does not directly contradict canon. If a Smash move/trait does not contradict canon, I consider it canon, as it was approved by the creators of the characters, and is therefore considered by them a natural extension of the character's abilities, and an OK representation of the character. For example, we didn't see Rosalina kicking galaxies outside of Smash, but considering who she is and what she does do, it's honestly something that seems like a perfectly natural addition to what the character can do.
While the creators approve the Smash movesets that contradict canon too, I consider that compromise. After all, it would be a shame if Olimar was not allowed to be playable in Smash just because his creators were not OK with him being scaled up in the settings of the non-Pikmin Smash stages. Which is why characters like him have such heavy compromises.
So basically, I think Captain Falcon is actually quite capable.
Super sonic is not a different charachter (unless were talking archie comics) BUT, It is a specialized state, in which the rules of combat shift. This is akin to the old rankings in DBZ strength, were they seperated out all the different forms of goku vegeta and cell, to rank them. Just because they are the same being, doesn't mean we cannot seperate their states in order to more accurately portray their relative strengths.
The difference between Sonics Emeralds and Link's Arrows is this. Gameplay mechanics and Story involvement. Link spends most if not all of the game with certain objects that become part of his character and are unique to him. Sonic on the other hand rarely uses the emeralds in comparison to Shadow. It's fairly unlikely for sonic to possess all 7 emeralds at any given moment, where as Link practically sleeps with the master sword.
Yes, it is a different state that Sonic can take, but the rules of combat are the same: kill the opponent. It's fine to say "Super Sonic is more powerful than Sonic while not in that state," but they are still, canonically, the same character. Super Sonic has been referred to as "Sonic" by other characters on multipleoccasions, and Super Sonic is an extention of Sonic's abilities.
For the rest of it, basically what sonicbrawler said about getting the Emeralds early in the games. However...
I'm pretty sure the Captain Toad interview was referring to "sex", but they felt they couldn't use that word, and used gender instead, since for some reason, a lot of people think they both mean the same thing.
What I took from that interview is "Toad's have no sex, but they can be whatever gender they feel like being". Again, gender is an extremely misused word, in that many people think it's a synonym for sex, when it only refers to one's mental sex (whether they feel like they are masculine or feminine), where as "sex" in this context means whether or not you are biologically male or female.
It's not the first time I have heard that mentioned about Toads either.
Also, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is not canon. Sonic 3 is. Sonic & Knuckles is. But S3&K is not. It's a bonus for owning the two previous games.
And I'm afraid interviews do mean more than games in cases like this.
If, hypothetically speaking, an interview came out in which Miyamoto or Yoshiaki Koizumi stated that Rosalina was actually not very powerful, or described some limit to her power, I would retract much of what I have said about her in this topic, as much as I'd hate to (since I think her ominous and mysterious and awesome power is part of her appeal).
Similarly, if the producer of the Sonic franchise who did work on S3&K, is saying the Super Emeralds and everything they brought are non-canon, then we have to accept that as being the case.
I love what the Super Emeralds brought as much as the next guy, but in actuality, their being canon or not is kinda meaningless to Sonic himself - Super Sonic has, canonically, been given enough abilities to the point where he is more powerful than what we have seen of Hyper Sonic. Maybe not quite as invincible (I'd have to double check), but in terms of abilities, he has. Which is why, even if you don't consider that he is non-canon, Hyper Sonic is irrelevant.
Actually, Sonic can have the emeralds on hand quite regularly. In Sonic 2, you could actually get all 7 emeralds within the first zone (first two levels of the game). In Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, you could get them all within the first two zones. Basically meaning you can play through the entirety of these games with the emeralds on hand. And Link does not practically sleep on the Master Sword, he has to go out of his way to obtain it each game.
Though, I believe this discussion should go by ScrewAttack's "Death Battle" logic - we assume that characters have access to all of their canon and recurring weapons, armour, tools, abilities, etc.
For example, Super Emeralds are straight up non-canon, and Sonic lost the Werehog transformation, and can only use Darkspines Sonic and Excalibur Sonic within their respective book worlds. So none of these would factor into it when we discuss Sonic.
However, the Chaos Emeralds are a recurring tool of his, and are a big part of his character. He can also use Chaos Control with a fake Chaos Emerald, which is pretty amazing. So I would count stuff like that.
Similarly, Link's tools would depend on the individual Link in question, but whichever Link we discuss (I would assume TP Link, since he is the one in Smash 4) should be granted all of his weapons, tools, and abilities.
TP Link is one of the strongest (but not the strongest) Links, so that's not a bad deal. He was trained in sword combat by the Hero of Time himself.
I'm not even going to get into the whole sex/gender deal (very controversial topic).
I agree that Super Sonic has been shown to be more powerful than Hyper Sonic (although he does have that whole screen nuke double jump thing), but I object to their being non-canon. Death Battle doesn't really adhere to the rules you described; this can be seen in the Mario VS Sonic episode, where Mario's Cape (which hasn't really been in action since Mario World) and Sonic's Fire/Bubble Shields (which were only in Sonic 3/Knuckles). DB takes into account "all of their weapons, armor, and skills," recurring or not. On the subject of the interview, he put it into a canon Sonic game. He can't just say they were non-canon because they were meant to reward players. The events of Sonic 3&K did happen, canonically. The events of Sonic 3&K include the Super Emeralds, Hyper Sonic, Super Tails, and all that good stuff. It's in the canon Sonic game that is Sonic 3 & Knuckles; therefore, it's canon to the Sonic series. However, it doesn't really affect Sonic's (or anyone's) position in the "tier list" either way, so it's not really worth discussing at this point.
I think that's a good idea, to an extent. I think some good rules are:
- Any limited-use items stay limited-use (like potions, for example)
- Inventory space and the like is limited to the maximum the character has in canon (for instance, Link can hold 1,000 Rupees)
- Ammo applies if it does in the canon game(s) (like Mega Man's limited energy gauge)
I'd say canon and staple/recurring abilities, as well as ones that have big relevance to the plot of the game.
For example, Rosalina may have only been directly seen doing the universe reboot once on camera, but it was a huge plot point. So it's worth considering. Same with Sonic being able to use Chaos Control with a fake emerald.
I also feel it's OK to use Smash itself as a reference as long as the move in question does not directly contradict canon. If a Smash move/trait does not contradict canon, I consider it canon, as it was approved by the creators of the characters, and is therefore considered by them a natural extension of the character's abilities, and an OK representation of the character. For example, we didn't see Rosalina kicking galaxies outside of Smash, but considering who she is and what she does do, it's honestly something that seems like a perfectly natural addition to what the character can do.
While the creators approve the Smash movesets that contradict canon too, I consider that compromise. After all, it would be a shame if Olimar was not allowed to be playable in Smash just because his creators were not OK with him being scaled up in the settings of the non-Pikmin Smash stages. Which is why characters like him have such heavy compromises.
So basically, I think Captain Falcon is actually quite capable.
Something affecting the plot doesn't make it any more canon, and something only happening once doesn't make it any less canon. For instance, Sonic's love for chili dogs is barely seen in the games, and it's never really been a major plot point, but that doesn't make it any less canon. The same thing applies to Rosalina's mind control using the Cosmic Spirit. It only happens in one game if the player fails a lot, and it has no plot relevance, but it still happened, and it's still canon.
I do agree that Smash can be treated as canon in some cases, but Olimar would still be the size of an ant, since his size in Smash does contradict his canonical size. Additionally, there's nothing remotely similar to most of Captain Falcon's Smash moveset in F-Zero (you don't see him creating fire or anything), so I don't think you could really treat it as canon in that case, since it contradicts Falcon's status as essentially a NASCAR driver, but in the future and with a faster vehicle. I can definitely see Rosalina's galaxy kicks being used by her Galaxy incarnation, though.
@ChikoLad
Follow up so what do we do with abilities that are canon but overwritten due to anomolies in time. Namely, Supersonic and sonic willing themselves backwards in time in '06.
@ChikoLad
Follow up so what do we do with abilities that are canon but overwritten due to anomolies in time. Supersonic and sonic willing themselves backwards in time.
If you mean the time travel in Sonic 2006, I think it'd be counted as non-canon, but something of that nature could still be used as supporting evidence for something shown in canon. For example, if it looks like Sonic might have been time travelling in a canon game, but it's not certain, Sonic 2006's time travel could be used as an argument that the Chaos Emeralds can let Sonic time travel.
I'd also propose location dependent abilities be ignored. Reason being location would become too much of a factor. The battle conditions should be somewhere Terran and isolated from any of the series realities.
I'd also propose location dependent abilities be ignored. Reason being location would become too much of a factor. The battle conditions should be somewhere Terran and isolated from any of the series realities.
S3&K is literally the product of slapping the Sonic 3 cartridge on top of Sonic & Knuckles. It is a bonus, with the only major differences being the Super Emeralds, Tails being with Sonic in the Sonic & Knuckles levels, and Knuckles going through the Sonic 3 levels. Sonic 3 is canon. Sonic & Knuckles is canon. But S3&K cannot be if the other two are, as it contradicts them. It provided some simple bonus content for players who owned both games, but it was not marketed as a new title (Sonic & Knuckles was the new title, that simply provided new content for Sonic 3 when you hooked the two up).
Even Sonic 4's background info, which refers back to Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, does not account for S3&K. It is a non-canon merging of the content from both S3 and S&K, and exists solely to provide fun new ways to play. And again - the producer of the franchise outright said it. You cannot argue with "word of god", and it actually makes total sense as to why it isn't canon - more people know about Sonic 3 and S&K as separate games than they know of the S3&K version.
@ChikoLad
Follow up so what do we do with abilities that are canon but overwritten due to anomolies in time. Namely, Supersonic and sonic willing themselves backwards in time in '06.
Sonic '06 being canon is actually kinda a weird subject due to Crisis City being in Sonic Generations. Crisis City is the ruined future that Silver came from in '06, that was supposed to have been fixed after the ending of '06.
Personally I tie Godhood to a domain. Outside of your domain you don't have godlike abilities. (seen this school of thought in many anime). However, for each series it may be different (doesnt rosalina run on star power).
Well if you wanted to make things more fair, I'd say Rosalina and Shulk are not going to weasel out of it by changing the entire universe. I know that in Rosalina's case, it's something she'd only do if the universe as a whole is basically screwed anyway, which was the case in Galaxy.
I'd still say it wouldn't make much of a difference in the case of either of those characters though. For one example, Samus is more or less screwed against Rosalina for the same reasons Rosalina is an unfavourable opponent for Samus in Smash - projectile negation, can warp and fly, control gravity, etc. Samus is powerful but Rosalia negates her projectiles entirely, out maneuveurs her, and can basically screw with Samus' own movement options with the same gravitational pull she uses to prevent Mario from falling off of the Observatory, just to name a few simple things.
Oh, and this:
That right there grants Rosalina an easy win against a lot of figthers.
So we could continue to talk about Sonic vs Rosalina vs Shulk. The three that obviously fit into the god tier, but I rather talk about who's top of the tier below them.
I'm gonna say kirby over samus because he can realistically negate most of her abilities by swallowing them, he is durable as all hell, and if you get swallowed by him its GG.
S3&K is literally the product of slapping the Sonic 3 cartridge on top of Sonic & Knuckles. It is a bonus, with the only major differences being the Super Emeralds, Tails being with Sonic in the Sonic & Knuckles levels, and Knuckles going through the Sonic 3 levels. Sonic 3 is canon. Sonic & Knuckles is canon. But S3&K cannot be if the other two are, as it contradicts them. It provided some simple bonus content for players who owned both games, but it was not marketed as a new title (Sonic & Knuckles was the new title, that simply provided new content for Sonic 3 when you hooked the two up).
Even Sonic 4's background info, which refers back to Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles, does not account for S3&K. It is a non-canon merging of the content from both S3 and S&K, and exists solely to provide fun new ways to play. And again - the producer of the franchise outright said it. You cannot argue with "word of god", and it actually makes total sense as to why it isn't canon - more people know about Sonic 3 and S&K as separate games than they know of the S3&K version.
Sonic '06 being canon is actually kinda a weird subject due to Crisis City being in Sonic Generations. Crisis City is the ruined future that Silver came from in '06, that was supposed to have been fixed after the ending of '06.
Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles are the result of cartridge size limitations. Sonic 3 was meant to be one entity, but it was split in half due to technical restraints. Sonic 3&K is the same thing as the two separate games, except with the connecting piece between them. The standalone ending for Sonic 3 was created because they were split (it wouldn't be a good ending if you just fell like in the "complete" version and the game ended, after all), and they were split due to technical restraints. The canon version, as originally intended by the developers, is what eventually came to be known as "Sonic 3 & Knuckles."
I haven't found any background info for Sonic 4, but I did find that Sonic News Network states that the game takes place "sometime after Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles." Speaking of Sonic 4, it also has lock-on content in the form of Episode Metal, which explains the gap between Metal Sonic in Sonic CD and in Episode II. Like S3&K, Episode Metal explains something that went unexplained in canon. Neither are contradicted, since Episode Metal has several connections to Sonic 4, and S3&K is literally the same thing that's in Sonic 3 and & Knuckles, except in one game, as well as added storyline connections. The actual Word of God doesn't contradict the world that He is creator of. The interview does contradict the thing Iizuka created, that thing being Hyper Sonic. Anyway, it doesn't really make a difference to the topic at hand, so I think we should just agree to disagree and move on from this tangent, as I don't think either of us will convince the other.
So we could continue to talk about Sonic vs Rosalina vs Shulk. The three that obviously fit into the god tier, but I rather talk about who's top of the tier below them.
I'm gonna say kirby over samus because he can realistically negate most of her abilities by swallowing them, he is durable as all hell, and if you get swallowed by him its GG.
If we're not involving deity/god powers, I'd say probably >>. It's really close between and , but Super Sonic really does give the edge here., while powerful in his own right, just isn't on the same level as the other two with his god powers revoked.
But yeah, I think it might be time to stop this little tangent now.
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