Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ShadowLBlue]

Yeah, the lack of a canonical source for its supposed warp speed/light speed travel is the point I was making. Also, the distance between the planets should be taken into consideration, since the reason space travel takes so long in real life is the huge distances between the earth and other planets.
Good point; it does seem to have to charge up a bit before taking off at full speed. Also, I think he kind of crashes at high speed into stages in some of the games, IIRC.

Yes, and since Kirby can travel those distances in a short time than it's safe to guess his Warp Star is probably insanely fast at it's peak speed. But he doesn't normally just go at warp speed on it.
And yes, I don't recall him ever landing his warp star gracefully while traveling at high speeds, it always ends in a crash.

On a side note, I haven't played Return to Dreamland but I recall that in Super Star Ultra Meta Knight was capable of flying into and through space so he must be pretty fast as well.



Well, Link in Brawl/Wii U/3DS is from Twilight Princess (same items, look, etc.), so he only gets Twilight Princess items, since canonically, each Link is different (some games, such as OoT and Majora, share Links). Likewise, Toon Link is from The Wind Waker, as shown by him having the Wind Waker in his taunt, and only gets Wind Waker items.[/quote]

I don't think Link looking like Twilight Princess Link means he should be restricted to TP items anymore than PT looking like Red means he should only get Pokemon from Gen 1-3. They just choose a design style for him. All of his trophies before made reference to him being from multiple games, for example his trophy from the original Smash Bros:

"Link is the valiant boy hero of "Legend of Zelda" series in which he fights against the evil Ganon to recover the Triforce. Though his tools may change with each adventure, his strength and righteousness remain constant. With his trusty sword and a variety of weapons, he takes his adventures head on!"

And Melee:

"Even in his youth, Link was already becoming the warrior who would carry the destiny of Hyrule (and many other lands) on his shoulders. His epic struggles against the forces of darkness are written in legend, and he is bound to the Princess Zelda and the archfiend Ganondorf by the awesome power of the Triforce."

And Brawl:

"A young man who emerged to rescue Hyrule from peril. He's the bearer of the Triforce of Courage who fights to keep Ganondorf from conquering the world. His green outfit is a constant throughout the series. He's a skilled swordsman, horseman, and archer. He's also proficient with bombs and boomerangs."

Also, if he was just supposed to be a specific Link than I don't he would have multiple games under his description.

 

[Munomario777]

Yes, and since Kirby can travel those distances in a short time than it's safe to guess his Warp Star is probably insanely fast at it's peak speed. But he doesn't normally just go at warp speed on it.
And yes, I don't recall him ever landing his warp star gracefully while traveling at high speeds, it always ends in a crash.

On a side note, I haven't played Return to Dreamland but I recall that in Super Star Ultra Meta Knight was capable of flying into and through space so he must be pretty fast as well.

I don't think Link looking like Twilight Princess Link means he should be restricted to TP items anymore than PT looking like Red means he should only get Pokemon from Gen 1-3. They just choose a design style for him. All of his trophies before made reference to him being from multiple games, for example his trophy from the original Smash Bros:

"Link is the valiant boy hero of "Legend of Zelda" series in which he fights against the evil Ganon to recover the Triforce. Though his tools may change with each adventure, his strength and righteousness remain constant. With his trusty sword and a variety of weapons, he takes his adventures head on!"

And Melee:

"Even in his youth, Link was already becoming the warrior who would carry the destiny of Hyrule (and many other lands) on his shoulders. His epic struggles against the forces of darkness are written in legend, and he is bound to the Princess Zelda and the archfiend Ganondorf by the awesome power of the Triforce."

And Brawl:

"A young man who emerged to rescue Hyrule from peril. He's the bearer of the Triforce of Courage who fights to keep Ganondorf from conquering the world. His green outfit is a constant throughout the series. He's a skilled swordsman, horseman, and archer. He's also proficient with bombs and boomerangs."

Also, if he was just supposed to be a specific Link than I don't he would have multiple games under his description.

The point I was making is that Kirby planet distances might not equal our own, so it's important to take into account the distance between Kirby planets as opposed to that of ours.

I'm not saying that just because he looks like TP Link means he is TP Link. I'm saying that his appearance, the Gale Boomerang, the fact that the Bow is called the "Hero's Bow," the Clawshot (introduced into the Smash series as Link's grab before Skyward Sword, hinting at it being based on TP), and the fact that every other non-Toon Link Zelda character is based on Twilight Princess (Sheik was redone in the art style) mean that he is TP Link.

"Though his tools may change with each adventure, his strength and righteousness remain constant" proves my point. His strength and righteousness are in every incarnation of Link, but each one has different tools. In this discussion, we're using Twilight Princess Link's tools when discussing Link from the second half of the Smash series.

"His epic struggles against the forces of darkness are written in legend" also makes complete sense with what I'm saying. Since Link from Smash 64 and Melee (and Young Link for that matter) is based on Ocarina of Time, this is very accurate. The tale of the Hero of Time (AKA Link from OoT) "becomes a legend that is passed down through generations," which makes this description very on-point according to Zelda lore.

"His green outfit is a constant throughout the series" is also accurate. The green tunic worn by TP Link (and most other Links) is iconic of the Zelda series, appearing in almost every Zelda game, but not always on the same Link.

The multiple games in the trophies are two iconic Zelda games, both of which featured Link in some of his earliest appearances. They all had the character "Link," just not the same Link. Also, the second game for Brawl's Link trophy is Twilight Princess, so what does that tell you?

 

[Ephemiel]

Can we just agree that Kirby can eat and copy anyone and that's it?

Also Link's the best, his items allows him to adapt, we've all talked about this earlier, blahblahblah, etc.

 

[Munomario777]

Can we just agree that Kirby can eat and copy anyone and that's it?

Also Link's the best, his items allows him to adapt, we've all talked about this earlier, blahblahblah, etc.

No, because he's only eight inches tall.

Can he adapt to an invincible, teleporting, time-freezing, light speed hedgehog? (AKA Super Sonic)

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

No, because he's only eight inches tall.

He could probably still suck him up

 

[Munomario777]

He could probably still suck him up

Well, Kirby can't suck up larger enemies, said enemies being maybe a foot at Kirby's scale. Most characters in Smash are much taller than that.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

Well, Kirby can't suck up larger enemies, said enemies being maybe a foot at Kirby's scale. Most characters in Smash are much taller than that.

Well we don't really know what the limit is with what he can suck up, plus hypernova

 

[Munomario777]

Well we don't really know what the limit is with what he can suck up, plus hypernova

He can't suck up bosses or invincible enemies. Also, many fighters could escape Kirby's Hypernova, whether it be out of pure speed, invincibility, time freezing, teleportation, etc.

 

[Crystanium]

The thing is the light beam fires beams of pure light (whatever that means). It's not a holy weapon or even a magical weapon (i.e. light magic from Fire Emblem). If you go off the premise that only holy/blessed weapons can harm Ganondorf, which I know you don't agree with, I don't think the light beam qualifies.
Yeesh, I assumed no one would post on Christmas. WRONG. Anyways

"This fires beams of light than can pass through enemies and set them on fire. It can be used to energise Light Crystals, and is effective against dark creatures."

What does "dark" mean in "dark creatures"? In this context, it cannot be referring to little or no light, nor can it mean a dark secret, nor could it be referring to being in the dark, as in being ignorant, nor could it mean that it's not reflecting light. What could it mean? Skin color? Nope, because even Dark Samus is black with a bluish glow from Phazon. It's not referring to someone's mood. I'll bet it refers to evil characters or forces. Not only does "Ing" mean "terror" in the Luminoth language, U-Mos, a Luminoth himself, tells Samus:

"It was the end of peace on Aether, for a new race was born that day on the dark world . . . one filled with hate and terrible power. They are the Ing."

Let's consider the curse Demise made.

"Though this is not the end. My hate . . . never perishes. It is born anew in a cycle with no end! I will rise again. Those like you . . . Those who share the blood of the goddess and the spirit of the hero . . . They are eternally bound to this curse. An incarnation of my hatred shall ever follow your kind, dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time!"

Simply put, Ganondorf is an incarnation of Demise's hatred. I'd say the light beam would be damn effective against Ganondorf. But even if it wasn't, there's nothing for those who support Ganondorf's claim or any other person's claim in the Zelda series that states with evidence that Ganondorf is immune to all but holy attacks. The whole game of Metroid Prime 2: Echoes is riddled with similarities to the Zeldaverse. Shigeru Miyamoto, the creator of Zelda, was the producer of the Metroid Prime trilogy. Before the game was released, people already saw similarities between MP2:E and Zelda. So you see, that's my reasoning for why the light beam could kill Ganondorf.

Disagree. As I said, Between reflect and light screen, he can put up barriers that will slash the power of her projectiles in half. That's a big edge for Mewtwo. And i was just listing some of his attacks. He has many more moves (including Earthquake and the ability to paralyze with Thunderwave). He's as strong as anything Samus has ever fought but world's smarter.

Samus already deals with enemies who become resistant to her attacks, and so she has to find another way to harm them. Reducing damage in half wouldn't be an issue for Samus. Even her own varia suit reduces damage in half and her gravity suit gives her a total of 75% damage reduction. This encompasses Samus' entire armor. From what it appears and from what the descriptions say, reflect and light screen only cover the front. I still don't understand how cutting this damage in half works. Does that mean 3,000 centigrade is reduced to 1,500 centigrade? That's still pretty hot.

I get your philosophy but that open's up too many doors so i think that we should just stick with lore. That being said, I'll repeat myself and say that there are many Zelda games where Ganondorf could be harmed but not killed by non-holy items. And I don't believe this was ever stated to be a death match.

Too many doors? Such as? Because saying "He cannot be harmed by x, only y" without any evidence is unacceptable. It leads to a no-limits fallacy.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

The point I was making is that Kirby planet distances might not equal our own, so it's important to take into account the distance between Kirby planets as opposed to that of ours.

I'm not saying that just because he looks like TP Link means he is TP Link. I'm saying that his appearance, the Gale Boomerang, the fact that the Bow is called the "Hero's Bow," the Clawshot (introduced into the Smash series as Link's grab before Skyward Sword, hinting at it being based on TP), and the fact that every other non-Toon Link Zelda character is based on Twilight Princess (Sheik was redone in the art style) mean that he is TP Link.

"Though his tools may change with each adventure, his strength and righteousness remain constant" proves my point. His strength and righteousness are in every incarnation of Link, but each one has different tools. In this discussion, we're using Twilight Princess Link's tools when discussing Link from the second half of the Smash series.

"His epic struggles against the forces of darkness are written in legend" also makes complete sense with what I'm saying. Since Link from Smash 64 and Melee (and Young Link for that matter) is based on Ocarina of Time, this is very accurate. The tale of the Hero of Time (AKA Link from OoT) "becomes a legend that is passed down through generations," which makes this description very on-point according to Zelda lore.

"His green outfit is a constant throughout the series" is also accurate. The green tunic worn by TP Link (and most other Links) is iconic of the Zelda series, appearing in almost every Zelda game, but not always on the same Link.

The multiple games in the trophies are two iconic Zelda games, both of which featured Link in some of his earliest appearances. They all had the character "Link," just not the same Link. Also, the second game for Brawl's Link trophy is Twilight Princess, so what does that tell you?

Ok I thought that's what you were saying about the planets, but I wasn't sure. Regardless, even in a video game world, the planets can't be too close to each other going off the distance on screen and the fact their orbits don't really seem to affect each other (that could be poor understanding of science on my part). It's not like we're discussing the mini-planets from Mario.

And wow so we both looked at the same lines and interpreted different things...I'll concede your point on the Melee trophy but I can't agree on the 64 one. I interpret that as saying "this Link is the soul of all the previous Links who have wielded different tools", each which he would have access to in this fight. Although I guess that's not relevant since the Link from SSB4 is heavily based on Twilight Princess.

But just like I stated earlier that Pokemon Trainer not getting access to all 719 Pokemon ruins the his inclusion on this list, I feel the same about not having a composite Link.

Well, Kirby can't suck up larger enemies, said enemies being maybe a foot at Kirby's scale. Most characters in Smash are much taller than that.

It's funny, you picked one of the shorter characters (3'3) that I think Kirby could possibly actually absorb (at least with Hypernova), although Sonic's much too fast to be caught by Kirby.

"This fires beams of light than can pass through enemies and set them on fire. It can be used to energise Light Crystals, and is effective against dark creatures."

What does "dark" mean in "dark creatures"? In this context, it cannot be referring to little or no light, nor can it mean a dark secret, nor could it be referring to being in the dark, as in being ignorant, nor could it mean that it's not reflecting light. What could it mean? Skin color? Nope, because even Dark Samus is black with a bluish glow from Phazon. It's not referring to someone's mood. I'll bet it refers to evil characters or forces. Not only does "Ing" mean "terror" in the Luminoth language, U-Mos, a Luminoth himself, tells Samus:

I'm not arguing light beam couldn't work because the ING aren't the same type of darkness as Ganondorf, I'm saying it probably wouldn't work because the light beam is just concentrated sunlight.

Samus already deals with enemies who become resistant to her attacks, and so she has to find another way to harm them. Reducing damage in half wouldn't be an issue for Samus. Even her own varia suit reduces damage in half and her gravity suit gives her a total of 75% damage reduction. This encompasses Samus' entire armor. From what it appears and from what the descriptions say, reflect and light screen only cover the front. I still don't understand how cutting this damage in half works. Does that mean 3,000 centigrade is reduced to 1,500 centigrade? That's still pretty hot.

Well you can't attack someone from behind or in the sides in Pokemon so it it would only need to cover the front. But you're right, in-game descriptions says they only cover the front.
And I'm not taking science into account because it doesn't apply for Pokemon. If we take in-game descriptions as being accurate than Mewtwo and his shields deal with some Pokemon attacks way hotter than 3,000 degrees centigrade (i'm assuming this is similar to Celsius?)

And yes Samus is use to dealing with bosses who can nullify or weaken her attacks but how many of them have 0 weakness, are psychic, have genius level IQ, can cause earthquakes, instant paralysis, teleport, and so on...

Too many doors? Such as? Because saying "He cannot be harmed by x, only y" without any evidence is unacceptable. It leads to a no-limits fallacy.

I never said he couldn't be harmed, I said couldn't be killed. And if we're adding in our speculation to say that the lore for a game is wrong, it can lead to us all coming to different conclusions and prevent us from reaching a conclusion.

More specifically, Ganondorf's inability to be killed by non-holy weapons isn't something inate but seems magically based so it seems very reasonable that it could magically just save him from all non-holy weapons. If it was science-based or based on something more vague I might feel different.

 

[Munomario777]

Ok I thought that's what you were saying about the planets, but I wasn't sure. Regardless, even in a video game world, the planets can't be too close to each other going off the distance on screen and the fact their orbits don't really seem to affect each other (that could be poor understanding of science on my part). It's not like we're discussing the mini-planets from Mario.

And wow so we both looked at the same lines and interpreted different things...I'll concede your point on the Melee trophy but I can't agree on the 64 one. I interpret that as saying "this Link is the soul of all the previous Links who have wielded different tools", each which he would have access to in this fight. Although I guess that's not relevant since the Link from SSB4 is heavily based on Twilight Princess.

But just like I stated earlier that Pokemon Trainer not getting access to all 719 Pokemon ruins the his inclusion on this list, I feel the same about not having a composite Link.



It's funny, you picked one of the shorter characters (3'3) that I think Kirby could possibly actually absorb (at least with Hypernova), although Sonic's much too fast to be caught by Kirby.

True, but I think we should reference screencaps from the games instead, since real world science has been shown to not be too reliable in this sort of thing (such as the Galaxy planets).

Well, the Link from 64/Melee is from OoT, and each Link is a reincarnation of the previous, so your interpretation of that is sort of correct, but 64/Melee Link would only have Adult Link's tools from OoT, since that's the link he's based on. Link from OoT is a different character than the Link from Twilight Princess. Same goes for Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword, etc.

Well, in the games, one Pokemon trainer can have any Pokemon in the series (assuming they carry over). On the other hand, each Link only ever gets the items from that game. There can be a composite Pokemon Trainer, but there is no composite Link; each game's Link is a different character (or incarnation of that character).

Well, 3'3 is quite a bit bigger than eight inches.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm not arguing light beam couldn't work because the ING aren't the same type of darkness as Ganondorf, I'm saying it probably wouldn't work because the light beam is just concentrated sunlight.

Concentrated sunlight? Well, sure, I'm under the impression that it travels at the speed of light, but saying it is concentrated sunlight is pretty much saying it is a concentrated beam of visible, infrared, and ultraviolet light. Do you realize the amount of damage this would cause to someone exposed without any protection? Especially ultraviolet light!

I don't know what source the light beam comes from. It is "light energy". Given the definitions that made no sense in the context of the quote in my previous post, except the one understood in the abstract sense, I'd say it's more than just "concentrated sunlight". But hey, even concentrated sunlight is something I've never seen Ganondorf withstand.

I'm not arguing light beam couldn't work because the ING aren't the same type of darkness as Ganondorf, I'm saying it probably wouldn't work because the light beam is just concentrated sunlight.

Concentrated sunlight? Well, sure, I'm under the impression that it travels at the speed of light, but saying it is concentrated sunlight is pretty much saying it is a concentrated beam of visible, infrared, and ultraviolet light. Do you realize the amount of damage this would cause to someone exposed without any protection? Especially ultraviolet light!

I don't know what source the light beam comes from. It is "light energy". Given the definitions that made no sense in the context of the quote in my previous post, except the one understood in the abstract sense, I'd say it's more than just "concentrated sunlight". But hey, even concentrated sunlight is something I've never seen Ganondorf withstand.

Well you can't attack someone from behind or in the sides in Pokemon so it it would only need to cover the front. But you're right, in-game descriptions says they only cover the front.[/quote]

I only implied that it covered the front. The descriptions say nothing of it in that manner. Instead, it says a wall of light is created.

And I'm not taking science into account because it doesn't apply for Pokemon. If we take in-game descriptions as being accurate than Mewtwo and his shields deal with some Pokemon attacks way hotter than 3,000 degrees centigrade (i'm assuming this is similar to Celsius?)

Scientists exist in the Pokéverse, right? Sure, I don't agree with a lot of what the Pokédex says because it contradicts the game play. I know, I know, people dismiss game play, but game play isn't necessarily the same as game mechanics. The way I see it, if the developers make it so Pokémon like Goomy can be harmed in-game, then he clearly contradicts the Pokédex. I don't know if they've changed this, but Doduo can learn fly, even though the Pokédex says otherwise. You can read the rest here and here. Grimer and exposure to the Moon's x-rays really did it for me.

Anyway, I can only think of Charizard's flame being the hottest. I'm not sure of any other Pokédex that mentions extreme temperatures, with the exception of Magcargo. But the only time I've seen Mewtwo battle Charizard was in the first Pokémon movie. I'm not considering that movie, though, just the games. (Not that it would matter, since Mewtwo blocks the flames with water.) So maybe you can demonstrate Mewtwo's shields dealing with temperatures higher than 3,000 centigrade. (And yes, centigrade is synonymous with Celsius, after Anders Celsius, who invented the centigrade scale, where centigrade means one-hundred degrees.)

And yes Samus is use to dealing with bosses who can nullify or weaken her attacks but how many of them have 0 weakness, are psychic, have genius level IQ, can cause earthquakes, instant paralysis, teleport, and so on...

Gorea was immune to all of Samus' weaponry. It took the form of an Alimbic, who were psychics themselves. In other words, "Gorea mimicked our cellular structure and replicated itself in solid form." - Gorea 04

Here are descriptions of the Alimbic.

"Through science and technology we increased our already formidable mental skills. Significant advances were made in the areas of telepathy, telekinesis, and extradimensional exploration." - History 10

"To contain Gorea, our people reduced themselves to pure telepathic energy through the process of essence transference." - Alimbic War 11

So I'd say Mewtwo is unlike an opponent Samus ever faced. I don't see how earthquakes would be an issue for Samus, since she can fly. I would expect thunder wave to work similarly to the way someone is incapacitated from a taser and that paralysis is actually understood as being immobilized and not necessarily paralyzed like a paralytic. I am curious as to how it is used, though. Is it fired linearly? As for teleportation, Samus has dealt with enemies capable of teleporting and enemies phasing in and out of her plane. Gorea is able to teleport.

I never said he couldn't be harmed, I said couldn't be killed. And if we're adding in our speculation to say that the lore for a game is wrong, it can lead to us all coming to different conclusions and prevent us from reaching a conclusion.

You think Ganondorf cannot be killed because of what characters in the Zelda series say, characters who are not omniscient. Again, living in a time where there was mass hysteria of vampires, I might think the only way to kill a vampire was by driving a stake through their heart. It doesn't mean it's the only way.

More specifically, Ganondorf's inability to be killed by non-holy weapons isn't something inate but seems magically based so it seems very reasonable that it could magically just save him from all non-holy weapons. If it was science-based or based on something more vague I might feel different.

All I'm saying is Ganondorf and others who speak about him say that the only way to defeat him is by the power to repel evil. If anyone wanted to, they could make something called Master Dagger, where the dagger is endowed with the power to repel evil. This is definitely the most effective way of killing Ganondorf. Is it the only way? Words from fallible people have me think not.
Well you can't attack someone from behind or in the sides in Pokemon so it it would only need to cover the front. But you're right, in-game descriptions says they only cover the front.[/quote]

I only implied that it covered the front. The descriptions say nothing of it in that manner. Instead, it says a wall of light is created.

And I'm not taking science into account because it doesn't apply for Pokemon. If we take in-game descriptions as being accurate than Mewtwo and his shields deal with some Pokemon attacks way hotter than 3,000 degrees centigrade (i'm assuming this is similar to Celsius?)

Scientists exist in the Pokéverse, right? Sure, I don't agree with a lot of what the Pokédex says because it contradicts the game play. I know, I know, people dismiss game play, but game play isn't necessarily the same as game mechanics. The way I see it, if the developers make it so Pokémon like Goomy can be harmed in-game, then he clearly contradicts the Pokédex. I don't know if they've changed this, but Doduo can learn fly, even though the Pokédex says otherwise. You can read the rest here and here. Grimer and exposure to the Moon's x-rays really did it for me.

Anyway, I can only think of Charizard's flame being the hottest. I'm not sure of any other Pokédex that mentions extreme temperatures, with the exception of Magcargo. But the only time I've seen Mewtwo battle Charizard was in the first Pokémon movie. I'm not considering that movie, though, just the games. (Not that it would matter, since Mewtwo blocks the flames with water.) So maybe you can demonstrate Mewtwo's shields dealing with temperatures higher than 3,000 centigrade. (And yes, centigrade is synonymous with Celsius, after Anders Celsius, who invented the centigrade scale, where centigrade means one-hundred degrees.)

And yes Samus is use to dealing with bosses who can nullify or weaken her attacks but how many of them have 0 weakness, are psychic, have genius level IQ, can cause earthquakes, instant paralysis, teleport, and so on...

Gorea was immune to all of Samus' weaponry. It took the form of an Alimbic, who were psychics themselves. In other words, "Gorea mimicked our cellular structure and replicated itself in solid form." - Gorea 04

Here are descriptions of the Alimbic.

"Through science and technology we increased our already formidable mental skills. Significant advances were made in the areas of telepathy, telekinesis, and extradimensional exploration." - History 10

"To contain Gorea, our people reduced themselves to pure telepathic energy through the process of essence transference." - Alimbic War 11

So I'd say Mewtwo is unlike an opponent Samus ever faced. I don't see how earthquakes would be an issue for Samus, since she can fly. I would expect thunder wave to work similarly to the way someone is incapacitated from a taser and that paralysis is actually understood as being immobilized and not necessarily paralyzed like a paralytic. I am curious as to how it is used, though. Is it fired linearly? As for teleportation, Samus has dealt with enemies capable of teleporting and enemies phasing in and out of her plane. Gorea is able to teleport.

I never said he couldn't be harmed, I said couldn't be killed. And if we're adding in our speculation to say that the lore for a game is wrong, it can lead to us all coming to different conclusions and prevent us from reaching a conclusion.

You think Ganondorf cannot be killed because of what characters in the Zelda series say, characters who are not omniscient. Again, living in a time where there was mass hysteria of vampires, I might think the only way to kill a vampire was by driving a stake through their heart. It doesn't mean it's the only way.

More specifically, Ganondorf's inability to be killed by non-holy weapons isn't something inate but seems magically based so it seems very reasonable that it could magically just save him from all non-holy weapons. If it was science-based or based on something more vague I might feel different.

All I'm saying is Ganondorf and others who speak about him say that the only way to defeat him is by the power to repel evil. If anyone wanted to, they could make something called Master Dagger, where the dagger is endowed with the power to repel evil. This is definitely the most effective way of killing Ganondorf. Is it the only way? Words from fallible people have me think not.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

Thought I'd post here once or twice.

I'm not arguing light beam couldn't work because the ING aren't the same type of darkness as Ganondorf, I'm saying it probably wouldn't work because the light beam is just concentrated sunlight.

And what are Light Arrows made of, really? I really feel like the whole "light beam doesn't count" debate is silly.

Similarly, in response to the "how would Ganon survive being frozen and then blasted to bits with a concussive blast," you already can't freeze Ganon and then blow him up with bombs in Zelda, so that's out of the window anyway. He must have some sort of magic defense blocking against such forces.

Well you can't attack someone from behind or in the sides in Pokemon so it it would only need to cover the front. But you're right, in-game descriptions says they only cover the front.

There are some attacks that break through Protect and similar moves, such as Phantom Force (which attacks from behind). There is also the move Brick Break, which will remove any Reflects or Light Screens. Other M introduced a lot more up-close-and-personal combat for Samus, notably melee finishers that strike hard at a weak spot. Of course, she'd have to knock Mewtwo down first, or otherwise out-maneuver him.

And yes Samus is use to dealing with bosses who can nullify or weaken her attacks but how many of them have 0 weakness, are psychic, have genius level IQ, can cause earthquakes, instant paralysis, teleport, and so on...

Last I checked, Mewtwo had three weaknesses ;P For that matter, Dark Suit Samus should be invincible....

Metroids are only weak to ice (and the grappling beam in Super Metroid for some hilarious reason), if Ridley doesn't have genius level IQ then at least Mother Brain does (being a literal super-computer), half of Samus's battles cause planet-quakes, she's fought many teleporting enemies before (Phantoon, some of the Phazon Metroids).... Not sure on the paralysis, though. Thunder Wave is definitely an electric shock to the nervous system, and I feel her suit would protect her from that, seeing as it's a weak jolt and she's suffered much worse.

Also, in response to psychic abilities crushing people in-game, I think Psystrike (Mewtwo's signature move) does just that. Thought the animation shows rocks crushing the opponent, the actual description calls it an "odd psychic wave." Though then again, in the anime Psystrike was shown as a sort of psychic explosion apparently? So I dunno.

I've no idea who'd win, but as a fan of both series I put some more stuff on the table I guess :U

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Put my comments inside the quotes this time.

In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Samus uses the light beam, which is effective at killing the Ing, Warrior Ing are the most common and the description about them are as follows:

"Morphology: Warrior Ing. The soldiers of the Ing Horde. Shapeshifting wallcrawler. Dangerous combatant in melee and at range. Dislikes bright light.

Warrior Ing are challenging foes. They can render themselves into amorphous puddles and move over most terrain, including walls. Warrior Ings can turn their bodies into dangerous projectiles sheathed in dark energy. The tips of their legs are razor sharp, making them formidable in melee. Finally, Warrior Ing are capable of channelling transdimensional energy and firing it at their enemies. Their only real weakness is bright, pure light, which they hate and fear."

So Samus does use one, at least. However, this "fact" is only true in the Zeldaverse, which is to say the people in that universe are only aware of one or few weakness against Ganondorf. They are also claims not made by any omniscient being, but by people who are aware of the most effective way of killing Ganondorf. It would be like me living during the times where there was a mass hysteria of vampires and I said the only way to kill a vampire was driving a stake through his heart. It wouldn't mean that's the only way vampires can die.

Tell me how Ganondorf would be able to withstand being frozen by the ice beam and then being shattered with a concussive blast. This is how Samus thinks. To support this claim, I'll quote from the official Metroid Prime Web site, which says:

"One of Samus' favorite tactics is to freeze an enemy and then shatter its body with a Missile [sic] attack."

Ganondorf is the final boss of some games, proving his power, and that he can't just be hurt by any old methods. Foreign attacks, such as Mario's fireballs, compare to attacks Ganondorf has encountered, such as bombs. He's immune to them, he's also immune to fireballs.

Ganondorf has also once used the Triforce of Power to freeze a bunch of water. He has equal, maybe even greater, power to Samus when it comes down to ice.

I agree with Samus being able to use the light beam to defeat Ganondorf (but Shadow doesn't), but Samus still shouldn't be higher than him, as that is the exploit of a specific weakness, and Kirby, who is below Ganon, can beat Samus.

The first one is pretty cool, but what are Poké balls made of and how much pressure can they withstand? The structure appears rather thin, which would make the object weaker to forces and pressure. A can made of aluminum, for example, can be crushed just by stepping on it. If the can was in the same form as a can, but it was entirely solid, it wouldn't be so easy to crush by stepping on it. In the games and manga, it's destroyed if a wild Pokémon gets free from capture.

And while this is all great, these are the anime, not the games themselves, which take precedence as they are the primary source. Maybe if you could show me from one of the games, that'd be nice. But let's say we accepted what's going on in the anime, Samus has withstood gravity, which I have calculated to be 7.88 times greater than Earth's. Her jumping is reduced, but she's still able to wall-jump and run just fine under these conditions. The gravity feature nullifies these effects.

Under 7.88 g, Samus would weigh 1,560.24 lb., which is a little over half a ton (0.78 tons) This would mean her organs would experiencing this as well, but let's forget about that. With the speed booster allowing Samus to travel "supersonic speeds", the moment she shinesparks, she would experience an acceleration of 70 g. Just think about a human being in those conditions. Not only that, Samus has to come to a complete stop, and yet she walks (or runs) as if it were nothing.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stapp#Works_on_effects_of_deceleration

Now tell me how Mewtwo would defeat Samus.

Also, like Meta Ridley said, Psystrike has a crushing effect.

On top of that, Mega Mewtwo's Sp. Atk is supposedly higher than Arceus', proving his psychic attacks to be supremely strong.

A feminine title for "god". Being a god or goddess doesn't mean anything. Only feats matter, otherwise, I should care what has to be said about Palutena.

Ragnell was blessed to be invulnerable, for one thing. It can emit powerful shockwaves from very far distances.

Ike has also defeated Black Knight, who has these three skills:

• Eclipse: Multiplies user's power by 5, and lowers enemy's defense.
• Imbue: Frequently restores HP.
• Nihil: Negates enemy's combat skills.

This shows that Ike is capable of defeating opponents that can increase their own strength and decrease the strength of their enemy. There's a feat for you.
Yes, a moon magnitudes smaller than our own. Punch Out!! was released in 2009 for the Wii, where as Donkey Kong Country Returns was released in 2010. You're trying to work backwards here, which isn't how this works.

Any proof that the moon's magnitude is smaller?

Also, it's not like DK's strength can increase from that of a regular gorilla to moon-level strength in a short amount of time. At the time of the fight, Donkey Kong's strength was close to moon-level.

Prove that the Star Rod can destroy moons.

The toughest in his galaxy.

Whatever the title is, Meta Knight defeated a very strong and capable being, making him a strong and capable being.

I always took PT as the representative of all the main characters and thus deserving access to all 719 pokemon.
Okay then, I was just building off the comments of a user that was posting here earlier.

The Star Rod and Master ability give him good ranged attacks but he can't absorb projectiles with either skill active, which you argued was a big edge for Kirby.
He can't, but he can fly over projectiles.

I know he can teleport but what do you mean by space manipulation? And blocking and sword beam are nice, but Mario/Roy/Lucinia are also capable of blocking and firing projectiles. Not even including Mario's many power-ups and items.
Meta Knight has control over teleportation, at least. He can teleport with the cape, also summon it out of nowhere.

Personally, I think this Link deserves access to equipment of all Links. At least all the non-cell shaded incarnations. And Young Link deserves access to all equipment from all games but Skyward sword and Twilight Princess and adult Link's items in OoT that he didn't have access to in other games.
I agree.

Funny you say Young Link gets access to his equipment when Toon Link is actually 16, just a year younger than Adult Link
I didn't actually know his age. I saw on this one wiki that TL was 9 or 10.

 

[Nerdicon]

I guess I should weigh in on this subject after reading around a little bit
From what I interpreted in Kid Icarus Uprising...Palutena's nothing worth writing home about. Her destructive power from what we see is probably the weakest of all the deities in Uprising. According to Kid Icarus canon Palutena and Medusa are equal in power, or at least very close. We can see this as Pit is able to canonically defeat Medusa without the Three Sacred Treasures. Using this information one can infer that Pit would be able to defeat Palutena with similar ease, which he can in Chapter 20, although killing Palutena results in a game over. This means at the very least, Pit is stronger than Palutena. Comparing her to the other top tiers is a joke really. Link is invincible (get to that later), Kirby can take just about any hit and retaliate with even more damaging attacks, Rosalina's Lumas would make short work of her too. Marth is another case of invincibility, though I'm not sure he could actually beat Palutena. The top tiers I see who could have trouble are Ganon and Sonic. Given that Palutena is a goddess I'm pretty sure she could harm Ganon, whether or not she could actually kill him is another story though. Same with Sonic; with all of Palutena's wide attacks she could probably hit Sonic, and Sonic wouldn't take much to dispose of.

To summarize things, Palutena's power is overhyped but still decent

 

[ShadowLBlue]

True, but I think we should reference screencaps from the games instead, since real world science has been shown to not be too reliable in this sort of thing (such as the Galaxy planets).

Well, the Link from 64/Melee is from OoT, and each Link is a reincarnation of the previous, so your interpretation of that is sort of correct, but 64/Melee Link would only have Adult Link's tools from OoT, since that's the link he's based on. Link from OoT is a different character than the Link from Twilight Princess. Same goes for Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, Skyward Sword, etc.

Well, in the games, one Pokemon trainer can have any Pokemon in the series (assuming they carry over). On the other hand, each Link only ever gets the items from that game. There can be a composite Pokemon Trainer, but there is no composite Link; each game's Link is a different character (or incarnation of that character).

Yea. Can we just agree the warp star is fast, probably at least as fast as the Arwing or Falcon. And like we mentioned earlier, we've never seen Kirby land it while it was going on high speeds so I'm not sure how relevant this discussion is.

I can't say you're wrong on Link, but I don't know if I agree that Toon Link only gets his stuff from WW and PH since his trophy even says, "This cartoonish version of Link is how he appeared in The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker and a few other titles." I think that's solid evidence Toon Link deserves access to all equipment from his cel-shaded games.

Concentrated sunlight? ... I'd say it's more than just "concentrated sunlight". But hey, even concentrated sunlight is something I've never seen Ganondorf withstand.

You know I went and re-read the descriptions and I think you're right. It says light energy. And since we know Ing aren't harmed by sunlight, there is something special in those light beams. When you also, consider the Ing are beings from a dark dimension that is similar to the dark world, the light beam might qualify as a weapon that can kill Ganondorf.

Scientists exist in the Pokéverse, right?

Anyway, I can only think of Charizard's flame being the hottest. I'm not sure of any other Pokédex that mentions extreme temperatures, with the exception of Magcargo. But the only time I've seen Mewtwo battle Charizard was in the first Pokémon movie. I'm not considering that movie, though, just the games. (Not that it would matter, since Mewtwo blocks the flames with water.) So maybe you can demonstrate Mewtwo's shields dealing with temperatures higher than 3,000 centigrade. (And yes, centigrade is synonymous with Celsius, after Anders Celsius, who invented the centigrade scale, where centigrade means one-hundred degrees.)

Yes they exist but clearly the Pokemon world's science doesn't line-up with ours. Otherwise many Pokemon would destroy/damage the world by merely existing or whenever they fought. Not to mention kill many humans.

Yes, Macargo was exactly who I was thinking of. There's no instance in the anime/tv show I can think of where Mewtwo withstood an attack from a pokemon with higher temperatures than Charizard. We should judge attack strength based off how they work in battle than trying to use real-world science.



-

So I'd say Mewtwo is unlike an opponent Samus ever faced. I don't see how earthquakes would be an issue for Samus, since she can fly. I would expect thunder wave to work similarly to the way someone is incapacitated from a taser and that paralysis is actually understood as being immobilized and not necessarily paralyzed like a paralytic. I am curious as to how it is used, though. Is it fired linearly? As for teleportation, Samus has dealt with enemies capable of teleporting and enemies phasing in and out of her plane. Gorea is able to teleport.

I'm not sure what the point about Gorea is. Besides Gorea was so powerful that Samus only beat it because of the Omega Cannon if I recall correctly.

And Samus can't fly, she can just double jump and Screw Attack infinitely, although the latter can dodge Earthquake.

And idk, Thunderwave works differently in each game but it either fires a beam of lighting or sprays out like a scattershot, reducing speed by 25% and makes the target immobile 25% of the time.
I'm not arguing Samus can't deal with anything Mewtwo does individually, I'm saying when you combine everything Mewtwo can do with its high IQ that it is more than a threat to Samus, unless you're saying nothing Samus ever fought has been a threat to her.

--

You think Ganondorf cannot be killed because of what characters in the Zelda series say, characters who are not omniscient. Again, living in a time where there was mass hysteria of vampires, I might think the only way to kill a vampire was by driving a stake through their heart. It doesn't mean it's the only way.

Well it's not fair to say (in a fantasy/sci-fi world) just because the technology is more advanced or primitive that it won't stand the test of time.

--
All I'm saying is Ganondorf and others who speak about him say that the only way to defeat him is by the power to repel evil. If anyone wanted to, they could make something called Master Dagger, where the dagger is endowed with the power to repel evil. This is definitely the most effective way of killing Ganondorf. Is it the only way? Words from fallible people have me think not.

Almost everyone who says this is a sage or Zelda though. They're not random people. It's not unbelievable to think they have been granted special knowledge on how to kill Ganondorf, among other things.

Besides it's not just an lore, it's an actual gameplay thing. For example in OoT you can
literally keep stabbing Ganondorf with the Biggorn sword, but unless you use the Master sword he just keeps getting back up.

I don't see why you're so against Ganondorf's invulnerability but not against any other form of invincibility stated here...

Screw this, I'm goin response in quotes for rest of my post.

Thought I'd post here once or twice.


And what are Light Arrows made of, really? I really feel like the whole "light beam doesn't count" debate is silly.
As I said earlier to Dryn, I agree now.



There are some attacks that break through Protect and similar moves, such as Phantom Force (which attacks from behind). There is also the move Brick Break, which will remove any Reflects or Light Screens. Other M introduced a lot more up-close-and-personal combat for Samus, notably melee finishers that strike hard at a weak spot. Of course, she'd have to knock Mewtwo down first, or otherwise out-maneuver him.

I'm aware of Phantom Force and Brick Break but I am not aware of Samus having anything resembling those.
I skipped Other M, so I wasn't aware of that. An out-manuevering someone who can teleport is easier said than done but if anyone can do it, it's Samus.



Last I checked, Mewtwo had three weaknesses

By golly, you're right, Mewtwo should be vulnerable to Darkbeam and Darkburst. Good point!

@kirbydragons, this post took forever and I've got to go to work so I'll respond to you later tonight.

 

[Munomario777]

Yea. Can we just agree the warp star is fast, probably at least as fast as the Arwing or Falcon. And like we mentioned earlier, we've never seen Kirby land it while it was going on high speeds so I'm not sure how relevant this discussion is.

I can't say you're wrong on Link, but I don't know if I agree that Toon Link only gets his stuff from WW and PH since his trophy even says, "This cartoonish version of Link is how he appeared in The Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker and a few other titles." I think that's solid evidence Toon Link deserves access to all equipment from his cel-shaded games.

Sounds good.

Actually, just Wind Waker. The description is referencing the shared art style between the games such as Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Four Swords, etc. By the way, the reason that Spirit Tracks is listed on his trophy is probably because of the Spirit Train stage in the 3DS version (and the "Toon Link" that appears there as the conductor).

 

[Nerdicon]

Being a huge Kirby fan I can confidently say the warp star's speed is extremely inconsistent. One game it ambles around slower than Kirby would, in another it can cross entire solar systems in a few seconds. If you really wanted to you can use the Milky Way Wishes map as a reference as to how fast the warp star is moving on that map, if Pop-star is about the same size as Earth you could measure the distance between landmarks on the map in Pop-stars to find the warp star's speed at what we can assume to be its top speed.

 

[Nerdicon]

Okay so some maths later, if the milky way wishes map is an accurate representation of the warp star's speed, then the warp star would be traveling at 6371 kilometers PER SECOND! For reference sound travels at about 1 kilometer every three seconds and light travels at roughly 299,793 kilometers per second. It's nowhere near lightspeed but that means the flying, battle ready warp star zips around at 22,935,600 kilometers per hour. How fast are Sonic and Samus?

 

[Munomario777]

Okay so some maths later, if the milky way wishes map is an accurate representation of the warp star's speed, then the warp star would be traveling at 6371 kilometers PER SECOND! For reference sound travels at about 1 kilometer every three seconds and light travels at roughly 299,793 kilometers per second. It's nowhere near lightspeed but that means the flying, battle ready warp star zips around at 22,935,600 kilometers per hour. How fast are Sonic and Samus?

Well, the problem here is that we can see Kirby for reference, and using his size of eight inches (which is the only known value, since there's no confirmation of the size of the planets), it isn't really moving too fast. Sonic can run at hypersonic speeds in his normal form, in addition to the Light Speed Dash and Light Speed Attack allowing him to move at, well, light speed. Samus can run at supersonic speeds using the Speed Booster.

 

[Nerdicon]

Sorry Munomario777 I don't know how to quote you, I'm new here. Anyway we know that these planets are pretty large, at bare minimum the size of a small asteroid. I get my planet size from Kirby 64. Remember Shiver Star? The on that was basically a frozen earth? Well if this truly is a post apocalyptic Earth than it's dimensions should still be the same, and Shiver Star is roughly the same size as Popstar, so Earth's diameter should be similar if not the same as the distance between a point and recessed area on popstar. That's where I get my measurements, Kirby is most likely enlarged so you could see where he is. He can also summon the warp star at any time, and according to the amazing mirror the warp star can shoot stars similar to the star rod and (I take this with a grain of salt) the anime says that the warp star is controlled by thought.

 

[Munomario777]

Sorry Munomario777 I don't know how to quote you, I'm new here. Anyway we know that these planets are pretty large, at bare minimum the size of a small asteroid. I get my planet size from Kirby 64. Remember Shiver Star? The on that was basically a frozen earth? Well if this truly is a post apocalyptic Earth than it's dimensions should still be the same, and Shiver Star is roughly the same size as Popstar, so Earth's diameter should be similar if not the same as the distance between a point and recessed area on popstar. That's where I get my measurements, Kirby is most likely enlarged so you could see where he is. He can also summon the warp star at any time, and according to the amazing mirror the warp star can shoot stars similar to the star rod and (I take this with a grain of salt) the anime says that the warp star is controlled by thought.

Just hit the "Reply" button at the bottom right of a post. Also, welcome to the boards!

Well, the planets in Milky Way Wishes were never given an official size; only the ones in Kirby 64 were (or hinted at one, anyway), and those are two separate games. Kirby, on the other hand, we know for sure the size of (that being eight inches), and thus is the more reliable source to reference. Also, the size relation between locations and characters changing fluctuating has been in many games, especially overworlds like this one (just look at the castles in the overworld of New Super Mario Bros.). Another explanation would be that Kirby is actually much closer to the camera than the planets are, thus enlarging his apparent size and speed relative to the planets, which are actually far behind him; this is supported by Kirby's descent through the atmosphere before landing. The thought control thing seems pretty likely, since there doesn't seem to be any other type of controls on the Warp Star itself.

 

[Nerdicon]

Just hit the "Reply" button at the bottom right of a post. Also, welcome to the boards!

Well, the planets in Milky Way Wishes were never given an official size; only the ones in Kirby 64 were (or hinted at one, anyway), and those are two separate games. Kirby, on the other hand, we know for sure the size of (that being eight inches), and thus is the more reliable source to reference. Also, the size relation between locations and characters changing fluctuating has been in many games, especially overworlds like this one (just look at the castles in the overworld of New Super Mario Bros.). Another explanation would be that Kirby is actually much closer to the camera than the planets are, thus enlarging his apparent size and speed relative to the planets, which are actually far behind him; this is supported by Kirby's descent through the atmosphere before landing. The thought control thing seems pretty likely, since there doesn't seem to be any other type of controls on the Warp Star itself.

I did notice the biggest flaw in my find on the warp star is the camera angle, Kirby could very well be close to the camera setting us back at square one on the speed of this thing, I did however think of something different...to my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong) Sonic at full height is 3 foot 3 inches, and even smaller than that in ball form, Hypernova Kirby should be able to suck up Sonic if Kirby was able to absorb the large Flowery Woods (well, relatively large, still only like 4 feet)

 

[Munomario777]

I did notice the biggest flaw in my find on the warp star is the camera angle, Kirby could very well be close to the camera setting us back at square one on the speed of this thing, I did however think of something different...to my knowledge (and correct me if I'm wrong) Sonic at full height is 3 foot 3 inches, and even smaller than that in ball form, Hypernova Kirby should be able to suck up Sonic if Kirby was able to absorb the large Flowery Woods (well, relatively large, still only like 4 feet)

Well, using Kirby as a point of reference, Flowery Woods, when being sucked up by Kirby, appears to be about two feet tall, and it gets smaller as it nears Kirby's mouth. When it enters Kirby's mouth, Flowery Woods appears to be about 16 inches tall and six or seven inches in diameter. Sonic, even in spinball form, is quite a bit bigger than that.

 

[Nerdicon]

Well, using Kirby as a point of reference, Flowery Woods, when being sucked up by Kirby, appears to be about two feet tall, and it gets smaller as it nears Kirby's mouth. When it enters Kirby's mouth, Flowery Woods appears to be about 16 inches tall and six or seven inches in diameter. Sonic, even in spinball form, is quite a bit bigger than that.

Now there my friend you are mistaken. Flowery Woods is at least 6 Kirbies tall or 4 foot 8 inches tall. You are right though that Flowery gets smaller as he gets closer to being sucked in, that's just how hypernova works. You should really be wondering if Sonic's fast enough to run away from it.

On a side note I calculated Kirby would have to be EXTREMELY far away from popstar to appear that small, I mean I was dealing with scientific notation. Anyway, as high up as Kirby was his descent speed is ludicrous! As long as the scene wasn't cut. I've kind of given up on finding the top speed of the warp star, its so inconsistent that its impossible to tell.

EDIT: I found that the mechanized version of the Warp Star from Air Ride caps out at 200 mph, the magical one should move faster

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Put my comments inside the quotes this time.
Okay then, I was just building off the comments of a user that was posting here earlier.
Cool.

.
He can't, but he can fly over projectiles.
With the Warp star he can. Although he'd have to shoot down her missiles because I doubt the warp star can take a missile. Although he could use the more durable (albeit seemingly slower) Starship.


Meta Knight has control over teleportation, at least. He can teleport with the cape, also summon it out of nowhere.
True, but how do you think his tornados and teleporting match up against Mario's power up and badges

I agree.
Good, now we just need to convince Munomario777.


I didn't actually know his age. I saw on this one wiki that TL was 9 or 10.
Yea he looks a lot younger but it's actually brought up very early in the actual game that the reason he is wearing the tunic is because it's what all young men do for their 16th bday.

I guess I should weigh in on this subject after reading around a little bit
From what I interpreted in Kid Icarus Uprising...Palutena's nothing worth writing home about. Her destructive power from what we see is probably the weakest of all the deities in Uprising. According to Kid Icarus canon Palutena and Medusa are equal in power, or at least very close. We can see this as Pit is able to canonically defeat Medusa without the Three Sacred Treasures. Using this information one can infer that Pit would be able to defeat Palutena with similar ease, which he can in Chapter 20, although killing Palutena results in a game over. This means at the very least, Pit is stronger than Palutena. Comparing her to the other top tiers is a joke really.

To summarize things, Palutena's power is overhyped but still decent

Palutena was extremely weakened by 3 year of being infested by the Chaos kin, so that fight isn't a good measurement. Unlike Pit she is capable of limitless flight and since she grants Pit his weapons and powers, there is no reason to think she can't use them as well, particularly the bow, which she made. She also has the giant laser beam which she used to knock the head off that 3 headed dragon and supplied Pit with the power to kill Hades with the 3 Sacred Treasures.
In that fight she also has a move that blinds you if you are in medium-short range and a variety of projectiles, not to mention a great counter whenever you try to melee fight her. I believe she's appropriately placed above Pit.

Sounds good.

Actually, just Wind Waker. The description is referencing the shared art style between the games such as Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks, Four Swords, etc. By the way, the reason that Spirit Tracks is listed on his trophy is probably because of the Spirit Train stage in the 3DS version (and the "Toon Link" that appears there as the conductor).

Don't agree at all. For one, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass Link are literally the same Link. There's no reason he shouldn't get his PH items. None.

 

[Meta_Ridley]

With all of the talk of Link getting items from different incarnations... are there any items from different incarnations that would really change his match-ups drastically?

 

[Crystanium]

You know I went and re-read the descriptions and I think you're right. It says light energy. And since we know Ing aren't harmed by sunlight, there is something special in those light beams. When you also, consider the Ing are beings from a dark dimension that is similar to the dark world, the light beam might qualify as a weapon that can kill Ganondorf.

I don't know where this light energy comes from, but if it's from the Light of Aether, it may very well be a beam of solar, bio, and geothermal energy, among other things not listed in Samus' scan. Aether relies on the Light of Aether because it has no star of its own to provide it with solar energy. So the beam could be containing several properties, or it could just be a combination of visible light and abstract light.

Yes they exist but clearly the Pokemon world's science doesn't line-up with ours. Otherwise many Pokemon would destroy/damage the world by merely existing or whenever they fought. Not to mention kill many humans.

Yes, Macargo was exactly who I was thinking of. There's no instance in the anime/tv show I can think of where Mewtwo withstood an attack from a pokemon with higher temperatures than Charizard. We should judge attack strength based off how they work in battle than trying to use real-world science.

The interesting thing is that older Pokedex entries mentioned Pokemon eating other animals or Pokemon. There is even a recent entry in one of the new ones where a Pokemon kills children and makes them turn into Pokemon or something like that. It seems to me that Nintendo or Game Freak humanized Pokemon. I would actually expect that if Pokemon was real, there would be deaths of humans and other Pokemon mentioned, rather than Pokemon fainting and the trainer blacking out because he or she lost.

Pokemon itself is really just a game of dog fighting, except with Pokemon. Now, I'm not part of PETA, so I'm not hating on the Pokemon series. I'm just pointing out that if we do that with animals, it would be cruel and inhumane. But, apparently the Pokeverse is fine with that. There's no logic in that universe of its own.

Guard: "No trespassing."

Pokemon Trainer: "I'll battle you and if I win, you'll let me through."

Guard: "Sure, why not."

Really? I suppose it's not as bad as Majora's Mask, where just wielding a sword apparently makes you an adult. Deku Scrub or you're without a sword? You cannot leave Clock Town. You have a sword and not only are you apologized to and given permission to pass through, you're referred to as "sir".

If we work with game play, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that the developers contradict the Pokedex when using game play. Or maybe the Pokedex entries aren't up-to-date and these are the best guesses scientists in the Pokeverse can make for now. I don't know. In any case, the game would demonstrate that Mewtwo is vulnerable to flamethrower. Should we work with Charizard's description, Mewtwo can be harmed by 700 centigrade, the temperature at which rock liquifies and we end up with lava. If we use ember, then perhaps 800 to 1,000 centigrade. (The flame on a candle is pretty hot.)

I'm not sure what the point about Gorea is. Besides Gorea was so powerful that Samus only beat it because of the Omega Cannon if I recall correctly.

I mentioned Gorea because you asked if Samus ever dealt with an opponent who has a genius level IQ, is invulnerable to all her weapons, and is psychic.

And Samus can't fly, she can just double jump and Screw Attack infinitely, although the latter can dodge Earthquake.

Space Jump allows Samus to jump multiple times in the air. That might not be flying in its truest sense of the word, but it is some form of flight. Shinesparking also allows Samus to fly. It's activated when Samus crouches after activating the speed booster.

And idk, Thunderwave works differently in each game but it either fires a beam of lighting or sprays out like a scattershot, reducing speed by 25% and makes the target immobile 25% of the time.

Well, Samus has dealt with electrical attacks before and I do understand this more as being incapacitated, rather than becoming a paralytic. It seems to make more sense to me when I consider tasers, since they send volts to incapacitate people. Whether or not that will incapacitate Samus, I don't know. It could be a nuisance, to be sure.

I'm not arguing Samus can't deal with anything Mewtwo does individually, I'm saying when you combine everything Mewtwo can do with its high IQ that it is more than a threat to Samus, unless you're saying nothing Samus ever fought has been a threat to her.

The only telepath who has ever been a true threat to Samus was Mother Brain, who used the hyper beam on Samus and would have killed her, had it not been for the Super Metroid. I'd say she has at least genius level IQ, if not higher, being an organic supercomputer who was created by the Chozo, a race known not only for their peace, but their scientific and technological advancements.

Well it's not fair to say (in a fantasy/sci-fi world) just because the technology is more advanced or primitive that it won't stand the test of time.

I'm not saying it won't stand the test of time. All I'm saying is that I've never seen Ganondorf withstand the types of weapons Samus has. I'm working with the weapons from Metroid: Other M, since that's the incarnation Samus is following in the new Super Smash Bros. games. The plasma beam in 2D games and in MOM lack any kind of extreme temperature that plasma might normally have. I'd say it's probably non-neutral plasma, but not the plasma like in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, since an ice effect can be added to it, making it super cool plasma.

Almost everyone who says this is a sage or Zelda though. They're not random people. It's not unbelievable to think they have been granted special knowledge on how to kill Ganondorf, among other things.

All right. I can accept that. It makes sense. They are sages and sages are pretty wise. They may have been granted knowledge on how to defeat Ganondorf, but to say it's the only way still is not contradictory. It could be the most effective way.

Besides it's not just an lore, it's an actual gameplay thing. For example in OoT you can
literally keep stabbing Ganondorf with the Biggorn sword, but unless you use the Master sword he just keeps getting back up.

That's part of the plot.

I don't see why you're so against Ganondorf's invulnerability but not against any other form of invincibility stated here...

I'm not. I've actually questioned Sonic's invulnerability when he's in his super form. I don't think he's immune to Samus' power bomb, but I do think he's too fast for Samus to keep up. I will defend Ganondorf and Mewtwo if you'd like me to.

Ganondorf is the final boss of some games, proving his power, and that he can't just be hurt by any old methods. Foreign attacks, such as Mario's fireballs, compare to attacks Ganondorf has encountered, such as bombs. He's immune to them, he's also immune to fireballs.

Ganondorf has also once used the Triforce of Power to freeze a bunch of water. He has equal, maybe even greater, power to Samus when it comes down to ice.

I agree with Samus being able to use the light beam to defeat Ganondorf (but Shadow doesn't), but Samus still shouldn't be higher than him, as that is the exploit of a specific weakness, and Kirby, who is below Ganon, can beat Samus.

I'm not even saying Ganondorf can be harmed by any old methods. I also am not sure what the extent of Mario's fireballs are. My calculations about Samus' weaponry are that at least in the Metroid Prime trilogy, the plasma beam is capable of vaporizing space pirates, who are capable of living in extreme temperatures like Magmoor Caverns. They adapt to different regions by means of genetic-engineering. It takes 2.99 gigajoules to vaporize a human being. The plasma beam can vaporize space pirates.

I have observed Ganondorf withstanding the flames from Valoo in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. If I use color temperature to determine the heat given by Valoo's flame, then the hottest part I am seeing perhaps 2,050 K, which is equal to 1,776.85 centigrade. That's pretty hot, so perhaps he would be able to withstand Mario's fireballs. In Metroid Prime, the hottest part of Samus' beam is a pale yellow. Sometimes it appears white. I'll say 3,225 K, which turns out ot be 2,951.85 centigrade. So we can see a huge difference in heat.

Of course, as I have said before, we're using Samus from MOM, so I'm curious as to why a beam that fires through solid objects (wave beam) and a beam that pierces enemies (plasma beam) would not get through Ganondorf's dark barrier.

Also, like Meta Ridley said, Psystrike has a crushing effect.

On top of that, Mega Mewtwo's Sp. Atk is supposedly higher than Arceus', proving his psychic attacks to be supremely strong.

It looked like rocks being surrounding Bellossom and striking her from all angles.

I don't take things like Sp. Atk into consideration. It's not that I don't like Pokemon. I do. Mewtwo was my favorite Pokemon before the movie came out. However, as I pointed out before around page +40, Pidgeot's top speed is Mach 2. Dragonite is capable of flying around Earth in 16 hours. This puts Dragonite slightly above Pidgeot, at least Mach 2.02 if I recall correctly. However, stats tell us Pidgeot is faster than Dragonite. This is contradictory.

Ragnell was blessed to be invulnerable, for one thing. It can emit powerful shockwaves from very far distances.

Ike has also defeated Black Knight, who has these three skills:

• Eclipse: Multiplies user's power by 5, and lowers enemy's defense.
• Imbue: Frequently restores HP.
• Nihil: Negates enemy's combat skills.

This shows that Ike is capable of defeating opponents that can increase their own strength and decrease the strength of their enemy. There's a feat for you.

What attacks are Ike immune to because he wields Ragnell? Shock waves are something I'm aware of about Ike from the old thread about Super Smash Bros. characters being true to their canon. (He was placed in the same tier as Samus.) Tell me why you think shock waves would be effective against Samus.

Any proof that the moon's magnitude is smaller?

Also, it's not like DK's strength can increase from that of a regular gorilla to moon-level strength in a short amount of time. At the time of the fight, Donkey Kong's strength was close to moon-level.

I'll give it a try. I'll first take the video of Donkey Kong punching the Moon from a video on YouTube. I will then scale the move based on Donkey Kong's height. Gorillas have a typical height of 170 to 180 cm. We'll go with 170 cm. (5 ft. 7 in.). I'll say Donkey Kong is equal to 1 pixel, since it's very difficult to spot him on the Moon. I end up with a total of 333 pixels.

333 px. / 1 px. = 333.

333 * 170 cm. = 56,610 cm. or 0.5661 km., which is only 0.016% of our moon's diameter. So let's take the Moon's mass and multiply it by 0.016% for an assumed mass. We end up with 1.19698352 × 10^21 kg., which is equal to 1.3 times the mass of Ceres. That's only if we work with this, but this is an assumption, as Ceres' diameter is greater than the Moon in DKCR.

Whatever the title is, Meta Knight defeated a very strong and capable being, making him a strong and capable being.

That looks more like a chain reaction, similar to how after Samus has defeated last bosses, the planets or ships end up with a self-destruct sequence.

Okay so some maths later, if the milky way wishes map is an accurate representation of the warp star's speed, then the warp star would be traveling at 6371 kilometers PER SECOND! For reference sound travels at about 1 kilometer every three seconds and light travels at roughly 299,793 kilometers per second. It's nowhere near lightspeed but that means the flying, battle ready warp star zips around at 22,935,600 kilometers per hour. How fast are Sonic and Samus?

Sonic can travel light speed and Samus can travel supersonic speeds. In her ship, she can travel 7.2 times the speed of light, though. Keep in mind traveling light speed in the Metroid series is considered "conventional travel" by the Aurora Unit in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption. Haha! So light speed travel is honestly slow in the Metroid series.

 

[Munomario777]

Now there my friend you are mistaken. Flowery Woods is at least 6 Kirbies tall or 4 foot 8 inches tall. You are right though that Flowery gets smaller as he gets closer to being sucked in, that's just how hypernova works. You should really be wondering if Sonic's fast enough to run away from it.

On a side note I calculated Kirby would have to be EXTREMELY far away from popstar to appear that small, I mean I was dealing with scientific notation. Anyway, as high up as Kirby was his descent speed is ludicrous! As long as the scene wasn't cut. I've kind of given up on finding the top speed of the warp star, its so inconsistent that its impossible to tell.

EDIT: I found that the mechanized version of the Warp Star from Air Ride caps out at 200 mph, the magical one should move faster

Ah, okay. He is fast enough, since he has the Light Speed Dash, and if the Hypernova was a black hole, we wouldn't see anything near it (since the light wouldn't be able to escape into our eyes).

I'd imagine gravity would have some kind of effect. Either that or it's just cutting out the long descent.

Interesting.

Don't agree at all. For one, Wind Waker and Phantom Hourglass Link are literally the same Link. There's no reason he shouldn't get his PH items. None.

http://zeldawiki.org/Link#The_Wind_Waker

In Spirit Tracks, taking place many years after the Hero of Winds found the new Hyrule, Link is a child who lives with Niko in Aboda Village.

How could the same Link be the fifth and eighth Link in the series, as well as being a child again many years later? They're two different Links.

With all of the talk of Link getting items from different incarnations... are there any items from different incarnations that would really change his match-ups drastically?

Well, Four Swords Link has the ability to split into four, Skyward Sword Link has his Loftwing, Young Link from OoT/Majora has the masks (but he's already Young Link anyway), a Link Between Worlds Link can turn into a painting, etc.

 

[Nerdicon]

With all of the talk of Link getting items from different incarnations... are there any items from different incarnations that would really change his match-ups drastically?

Chateau Romani for infinite magic then Nayru's Love for invincibility, so Link is only really vulnerable when has to reapply if you don't count time freezing as a technique like I don't

 

[Diddy Kong]

Nayru's Love? That thing will use up all Link's magic FAST. And that means no Light Arrows, Fire Arrows or Ice Arrows. Link doesn't want that.

 

[Nerdicon]

Palutena was extremely weakened by 3 year of being infested by the Chaos kin, so that fight isn't a good measurement. Unlike Pit she is capable of limitless flight and since she grants Pit his weapons and powers, there is no reason to think she can't use them as well, particularly the bow, which she made. She also has the giant laser beam which she used to knock the head off that 3 headed dragon and supplied Pit with the power to kill Hades with the 3 Sacred Treasures.
In that fight she also has a move that blinds you if you are in medium-short range and a variety of projectiles, not to mention a great counter whenever you try to melee fight her. I believe she's appropriately placed above Pit

.

Limitless flight was never mentioned in Uprising, she can levitate though. The only instance of Palutena using the weapons were in the anime short and the only instance of her using the powers are in Sm4sh. The powers I can agree with, the weapons a little less, that laser beam took forever to charge up and it still didn't kill each head. Also that final bit where Palutena gave her power wasn't really her power, she just gave Pit enough power to shoot the laser cannon on the great sacred treasure, we even see it in the boss fight where it charges much faster. That was the Great Sacred Treasure's feat, not Palutena's. Also as I mentioned in the previous wall of text Palutena and Medusa should have similar power as mentioned in Chapter 9 and when in the old games Palutena is kidnapped. As a matter of fact in the first game Pit saved Palutena with no godly assistance (minus the hospitals and 3ST). Between the remarks in Chapter 9 and the original games, it's safe to say that Palutena and Medusa have equal power which means at full power, Palutena should put up a fight similar to Medusa, meaning she could be defeated by Pit with relative ease

 

[Nerdicon]

Nayru's Love? That thing will use up all Link's magic FAST. And that means no Light Arrows, Fire Arrows or Ice Arrows. Link doesn't want that.

Chateau Romani gives him infinite magic, see what I'm getting at here? The only real discussion to be had is if he has access to it, because he got it in Majora's Mask

 

[Diddy Kong]

Chateau Romani gives him infinite magic, see what I'm getting at here? The only real discussion to be had is if he has access to it, because he got it in Majora's Mask

But Link lost all acces to his old equipment in Majora's Mask. I get that you want to refrain from thinking too much in terms of 'gameplay restrictions' but ignoring such a huge part of a game's storyline...?

 

[Nerdicon]

But Link lost all acces to his old equipment in Majora's Mask. I get that you want to refrain from thinking too much in terms of 'gameplay restrictions' but ignoring such a huge part of a game's storyline...?

By that same logic Link lost access to all of his items, the only items we see Link give away are the non-transformation masks. I was more thinking if the infinite magic should be Young Link's ability

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, okay. He is fast enough, since he has the Light Speed Dash, and if the Hypernova was a black hole, we wouldn't see anything near it (since the light wouldn't be able to escape into our eyes).

I'd imagine gravity would have some kind of effect. Either that or it's just cutting out the long descent.

Interesting.

We'd actually see light and matter surrounding a black hole. The description for Hypernova says that Kirby's stomach becomes a veritable black hole. Veritable means "an intensifier, often to qualify a metaphor". Next, the informal definition of black hole is "A place where people or things, especially money, disappear without trace". Well, I think "veritable" places "black hole" to be understood as a metaphor, since black holes do not rely on inhalation. The range and the size of objects Kirby can inhale, including the beam inhales and fires back at Queen Sectonia honestly makes Kirby somewhat more formidable, though.

http://zeldawiki.org/Link#The_Wind_Waker
How could the same Link be the fifth and eighth Link in the series, as well as being a child again many years later? They're two different Links.

Well, Four Swords Link has the ability to split into four, Skyward Sword Link has his Loftwing, Young Link from OoT/Majora has the masks (but he's already Young Link anyway), a Link Between Worlds Link can turn into a painting, etc.

There are different incarnations of Link, but even some incarnations are the selfsame characters. The timeline seems to clear this up a bit. However, I'd say the incarnation of Link we're using should be from Skyward Sword.

 

[Munomario777]

We'd actually see light and matter surrounding a black hole. The description for Hypernova says that Kirby's stomach becomes a veritable black hole. Veritable means "an intensifier, often to qualify a metaphor". Next, the informal definition of black hole is "A place where people or things, especially money, disappear without trace". Well, I think "veritable" places "black hole" to be understood as a metaphor, since black holes do not rely on inhalation. The range and the size of objects Kirby can inhale, including the beam inhales and fires back at Queen Sectonia honestly makes Kirby somewhat more formidable, though.



There are different incarnations of Link, but even some incarnations are the selfsame characters. The timeline seems to clear this up a bit. However, I'd say the incarnation of Link we're using should be from Skyward Sword.

Yeah, what I meant was more the light warping like it would around a black hole due to the gravity, in addition to Kirby's mouth (where the black hole would be) being completely black. I think it's meant to be a metaphor as well.

Well, Link in SSB4 has the Gale Boomerang, and that's a Twilight Princess-exclusive item. Plus, his appearance is very similar to that of Twilight Princess Link. And yes, some games share Links, such as Ocarina of Time's Child Link returning as the main character of Majora's Mask.

 

[Crystanium]

Yeah, what I meant was more the light warping like it would around a black hole due to the gravity, in addition to Kirby's mouth (where the black hole would be) being completely black. I think it's meant to be a metaphor as well.

Well, Link in SSB4 has the Gale Boomerang, and that's a Twilight Princess-exclusive item. Plus, his appearance is very similar to that of Twilight Princess Link. And yes, some games share Links, such as Ocarina of Time's Child Link returning as the main character of Majora's Mask.

We should just use Link from Twilight Princess because his design and default move set are based off that. Let's ignore the weapon customization and palette swaps for now, else this ends up being applied to a number of characters here.

 

[Munomario777]

We should just use Link from Twilight Princess because his design and default move set are based off that. Let's ignore the weapon customization and palette swaps for now, else this ends up being applied to a number of characters here.

My point exactly.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

With all of the talk of Link getting items from different incarnations... are there any items from different incarnations that would really change his match-ups drastically?

Yes. If we go with munomario's belief (which I and kirby_dragon disagree with, not sure how anyone else feels), the Roc cape, Pegasus boots, any of the 3 medallions (Quake: causes an earthquake; Ether: "Ether attacks through the atmosphere, as flying enemies appear to be the most affected. Most enemies who are not destroyed by the initial pulse of lightning and pressure are frozen, as if they were struck by the Ice Rod" and if I recall has a large attack range; Bombos: With an enchanted Spin Attack, Link sends out a ring of fire followed by a series of small explosions in all directions. This causes all foes to become inflamed, as if they have been struck with the Fire Rod. Once again, has a large range.), the cane of byrna (uses magic power to make him invincible), the cane of somaria (makes indestructible blocks) and magic cape (makes him invisible) would be unavailable to him. I shouldn't need to spell out how any of those 3 could drastically change a match up.

If we work with game play, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying that the developers contradict the Pokedex when using game play. Or maybe the Pokedex entries aren't up-to-date and these are the best guesses scientists in the Pokeverse can make for now. I don't know. In any case, the game would demonstrate that Mewtwo is vulnerable to flamethrower. Should we work with Charizard's description, Mewtwo can be harmed by 700 centigrade, the temperature at which rock liquifies and we end up with lava. If we use ember, then perhaps 800 to 1,000 centigrade. (The flame on a candle is pretty hot.)

Agreed about Pokedex contradicting gameplay.


I mentioned Gorea because you asked if Samus ever dealt with an opponent who has a genius level IQ, is invulnerable to all her weapons, and is psychic.

Well I meant Psychic in terms of moves like Mewtwo, but yes Gorea clearly has psychic skills. And I wasn't saying Mewtwo was invulnerable to her moves, I meant Mewtwo isn't weak to any of her beams the way a metroid is to an ice beam. Although meta ridley reminded me of the dark beam, so that's not true.

Space Jump allows Samus to jump multiple times in the air. That might not be flying in its truest sense of the word, but it is some form of flight. Shinesparking also allows Samus to fly. It's activated when Samus crouches after activating the speed booster.

Yes, space jump allows infinite jumpes with screw attack. And shinesparking also works but stops when she hits a wall.

Well, Samus has dealt with electrical attacks before and I do understand this more as being incapacitated, rather than becoming a paralytic. It seems to make more sense to me when I consider tasers, since they send volts to incapacitate people. Whether or not that will incapacitate Samus, I don't know. It could be a nuisance, to be sure.


I'm not sure what you're confused about here. It reduces her speed and would occasionally cause her to become completely paralyzed momentarily.

The only telepath who has ever been a true threat to Samus was Mother Brain, who used the hyper beam on Samus and would have killed her, had it not been for the Super Metroid. I'd say she has at least genius level IQ, if not higher, being an organic supercomputer who was created by the Chozo, a race known not only for their peace, but their scientific and technological advancements.

Yes, but mother brain was immobile. Combine Mother Brain and Gorea and you have like 60-70% of Mewtwo's abilities.


I'm not saying it won't stand the test of time. All I'm saying is that I've never seen Ganondorf withstand the types of weapons Samus has. I'm working with the weapons from Metroid: Other M, since that's the incarnation Samus is following in the new Super Smash Bros. games. The plasma beam in 2D games and in MOM lack any kind of extreme temperature that plasma might normally have. I'd say it's probably non-neutral plasma, but not the plasma like in Metroid Prime and Metroid Prime 3: Corruption, since an ice effect can be added to it, making it super cool plasma.


I'm not as into science as you, but isn't plasma just extremely hot form of fire? I don't see why the plasma beam could kill him when none of Link's fire based weapons would. However, it's true Ganondorf's never dealt with the wave beam or anhiliator beam (or their respective missile combinations.)

All right. I can accept that. It makes sense. They are sages and sages are pretty wise. They may have been granted knowledge on how to defeat Ganondorf, but to say it's the only way still is not contradictory. It could be the most effective way.

Yes, but we have no idea what way that would be. Is it fair to just speculate which weapons/powers could also be able to kill him when we truly have no idea. Theoretically he could also be able to be killed by bug type moves while resisting the other 16 bug types, but there's no evidence for that what so ever.


I'm not. I've actually questioned Sonic's invulnerability when he's in his super form. I don't think he's immune to Samus' power bomb, but I do think he's too fast for Samus to keep up. I will defend Ganondorf and Mewtwo if you'd like me to.

My apologies then. And defend Ganondorf and Mewtwo against who?


I'm not even saying Ganondorf can be harmed by any old methods. I also am not sure what the extent of Mario's fireballs are. My calculations about Samus' weaponry are that at least in the Metroid Prime trilogy, the plasma beam is capable of vaporizing space pirates, who are capable of living in extreme temperatures like Magmoor Caverns. They adapt to different regions by means of genetic-engineering. It takes 2.99 gigajoules to vaporize a human being. The plasma beam can vaporize space pirates.

I have observed Ganondorf withstanding the flames from Valoo in The Legend of Zelda: The Wind Waker. If I use color temperature to determine the heat given by Valoo's flame, then the hottest part I am seeing perhaps 2,050 K, which is equal to 1,776.85 centigrade. That's pretty hot, so perhaps he would be able to withstand Mario's fireballs. In Metroid Prime, the hottest part of Samus' beam is a pale yellow. Sometimes it appears white. I'll say 3,225 K, which turns out ot be 2,951.85 centigrade. So we can see a huge difference in heat.

Of course, as I have said before, we're using Samus from MOM, so I'm curious as to why a beam that fires through solid objects (wave beam) and a beam that pierces enemies (plasma beam) would not get through Ganondorf's dark barrier.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's clear the issue here is you don't believe in the mystical powers of magic. If a game's lore says "an object of infinite power" has granted someone invulnerability, I (and judging by comments, most other people here) have no reason to disbelieve it.

http://zeldawiki.org/Link#The_Wind_Waker
How could the same Link be the fifth and eighth Link in the series, as well as being a child again many years later? They're two different Links.

I said Phantom of the Hourglass, not Spirit Tracks.

.

Limitless flight was never mentioned in Uprising, she can levitate though. The only instance of Palutena using the weapons were in the anime short and the only instance of her using the powers are in Sm4sh. The powers I can agree with, the weapons a little less, that laser beam took forever to charge up and it still didn't kill each head. Also that final bit where Palutena gave her power wasn't really her power, she just gave Pit enough power to shoot the laser cannon on the great sacred treasure, we even see it in the boss fight where it charges much faster. That was the Great Sacred Treasure's feat, not Palutena's. Also as I mentioned in the previous wall of text Palutena and Medusa should have similar power as mentioned in Chapter 9 and when in the old games Palutena is kidnapped. As a matter of fact in the first game Pit saved Palutena with no godly assistance (minus the hospitals and 3ST). Between the remarks in Chapter 9 and the original games, it's safe to say that Palutena and Medusa have equal power which means at full power, Palutena should put up a fight similar to Medusa, meaning she could be defeated by Pit with relative ease

It seems odd she'd be able to levitate that high and long and not fly, but regardless, limitless levitation is still pretty handy.
Yea, I actually agree she likely isn't proficient with the non-bow weapons.
Yes, I said it only knocked off one head. Due to it's large charge time, it wouldn't be feasible in a battle.

And regarding the Sacred Treasures, here is a direct quote: "I'm using my powers to charge up the gun of the Great Sacred Treasures." Obviously they had power before but I think that clearly states she added her own power to the gun.

Well Palutena wasn't developed nearly as well (and she still isn't developed that much now) in the old games, but I believe that Palutena and Medusa have similar powers. I wouldn't say Pit beat her with ease though. I'm not saying Palutena definitely wins, but she's more than capable of doing so.