Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[ShadowLBlue]

Well, Palutena isn't shown to be all that powerful in the games (Pit defeats her in Uprising, and her other powers aren't anything too impressive). "Goddess" in Kid Icarus doesn't really mean "extremely powerful;" Pit, a regular angel, defeats them on a daily basis.

Palutena's not all powerful but she is still powerful. I just did a post on how that fight vs Pit wasn't the real Palutena, although her strength is supposedly on par with Medusa whom Pit beat, so he should be able to beat her at full health. And her abilities page doesn't account for the Palutena's bows or Power-ups.

Meh, if Marth can be hurt by projectiles, then drop him a few tiers, his invincibility to all non-dragon attacks was the only thing he had going for him. I do have to wonder how specific the dragon requirement is though.

Me too, but I'm going to take the wiki at it's word unless I see proof otherwise. And I think just dropping him one tier is fine.
Going off the last tier list (which I don't totally agree with), which was posted by Kirby Dragon (which we're going to need to redo sooner or later, he should go right below Mega Man but above Little Mac. However, he needs to remain above Ike, Lucinia and Roy in any new Tier list. Here is most of the last tier list (I left off tier 4 and part of tier 3 for space purposes.)









Tier 2 (Very Powerful):











Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)

So for composite, is he allowed anything from Majora's Mask or no? If so then he has nigh impenetrable invincibility, if not he's OK. If he had access to the Chateau Romani and Nayru's Love, that would mean infinite invincibility with either small gaps if you don't count time freezing as a game mechanic or huge gaps if you do
can fly as fast as a Warp Star, naturally teleport, heal back to perfect health, boost his ground speed to insane levels, exhibit mild control over fire and electricity, summon knights to fight for him, and his sword Galaxia shoots sword beams that can through anything, literally. His sword is indestructible and only he and Kirby can wield it, anyone else is hurt, corrupted, or killed.
has the same power level as Pit, so extremely strong

Yes, composite Link gets access to everything. He's not just adult Link. The only game he besides WW (when he's 16) where his age is specifically stated is OoT, and there's no reason OoT Link wouldn't have access to his younger self's weapons even though it's from a different game. And I forgot about that item so that definitely raises his and Young Link's rank. But what do you mean about time gaps?

FYI Nerdicon, Young Link gets everything but equipment from Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. And any Adult Link equipment that's not otherwise available in other games (e.g.: For some reason he can't use the boomerang in OoT even though many games with a non-Adult Link have let him use a boomerang). The reason he gets access to things from games like Zelda or Oracles of ages is, because you can see from art wok that he's not designed as an adult however he doesn't look quite as young (at least imo) as Young Link in OoT.
Yes he flies fast, but I'm pretty sure he only flies warp star fast when he touches/absorbs one, and unlike Kirby he lacks the ability to call one. And are you referring to Kirby Super Star Ultra when you say he can restore full HP at will? Because he couldn't do that at will. He had to accumulate points by killing enemies. So if we're being generous he gets to use any of his specials once (Meta-quick, Knight Call, Mach Tornado, Full Heal). FYI I'm referring to his mach Tornado that comes from his body and has a wide attack range, not the kind he (at least Dark Meta Knight) can shoot from his sword.
Deserves to be right below Pit.

Response in post

Samus isn't subject to the system Pokemon works under. If water is a prerequisite for life, and if fire-types can drink water or be so hot that raindrops become steam, then I can't say the function of these mechanics in the Pokeverse makes any sense. The point is, Samus would seem the attack as your typical earthquake.
You're right, Pokémon mechanics make no sense, which is exactly why you shouldn't consider Earthquake an actual earthquake, but a powerful attack that functions like an earthquake.
That's fine that it serves that purpose, but Samus is wearing a powered exoskeleton with a formfitting energy shield. If "paralyze" means incapacitate,and if it is a "weak jolt" according to the description, I can't see how it will do much of anything to Samus.
The exo skeleton thing is an interesting point, but I wouldn't read to much into the weak jolt since it affects all non-electric Pokémon of all strengths. It's not like some low level status-inflicting spell in an rpg that only affects weak enemies.

Of course not, but that issue is from the fact that she's in an enclosed area.

Even if that would have taken place on the field Samus fought Quadraxis on, it wouldn't change the fact Mewtwo can teleport and fly while Mother Brain's "body" couldn't. If anything a bigger battlefield would have made it easier for Samus because she'd have more room to dodge.

I don't see why that's hard to believe. It's not like Mewtwo is wearing some thermal insulator or reinforced carbon-carbon or silicone. Your typical candle flame produces 1,000 centigrade.
It's not just fire, it's elements in general. If we take Pokémon at it's word than Mewtwo is capable of surviving attacks from unbelievably hot temperatures (i.e. from Marcago's body or fire attacks in general), electrical attacks that would kill normal beings, etc. As we said earlier, the mechanics of Pokémon make no sense. I'm sure Mewtwo, like all Pokémon, has it's limits, but if it can survive attacks hot as the temperature as the Sun without bursting into flames or melting, than it (and all Pokémon) have otherworldy durability.

That's why we compare to see what works and what doesn't. By the way, I had a sort of revelation today. Samus' power beam works against the Ing. It's not as effective, but it can kill them. If my argument between the Ing and Ganondorf stand, then Samus' power beam could even kill Ganondorf. I've already explained that holy items might be the most effective, but not the only means by which Ganondorf can be killed.
I don't see why Samus's non-light beams could kill him when Links non-holy weapons couldn't. For example If he couldn't kill Ganondorf with his fire arrows than why would Samus's plasma beam/flamethrower work?

I'm not sure. It depends on which incarnation of Mario we're using. I'm not sure which incarnation Super Smash Bros. 4 is using.
Their is only one Mario, it's not like RPG Mario's are in alternate universes.

And sure Samus easily beats TP Link, but Samus vs Composite Link is a different ball game.

 

[Munomario777]

Palutena's not all powerful but she is still powerful. I just did a post on how that fight vs Pit wasn't the real Palutena, although her strength is supposedly on par with Medusa whom Pit beat, so he should be able to beat her at full health. And her abilities page doesn't account for the Palutena's bows or Power-ups.



Me too, but I'm going to take the wiki at it's word unless I see proof otherwise. And I think just dropping him one tier is fine.
Going off the last tier list (which I don't totally agree with), which was posted by Kirby Dragon (which we're going to need to redo sooner or later, he should go right below Mega Man but above Little Mac. However, he needs to remain above Ike, Lucinia and Roy in any new Tier list. Here is most of the last tier list (I left off tier 4 and part of tier 3 for space purposes.)









Tier 2 (Very Powerful):











Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)

























Yes, composite Link gets access to everything. He's not just adult Link. The only game he besides WW (when he's 16) where his age is specifically stated is OoT, and there's no reason OoT Link wouldn't have access to his younger self's weapons even though it's from a different game. And I forgot about that item so that definitely raises his and Young Link's rank. But what do you mean about time gaps?

FYI Nerdicon, Young Link gets everything but equipment from Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. And any Adult Link equipment that's not otherwise available in other games (e.g.: For some reason he can't use the boomerang in OoT even though many games with a non-Adult Link have let him use a boomerang). The reason he gets access to things from games like Zelda or Oracles of ages is, because you can see from art wok that he's not designed as an adult however he doesn't look quite as young (at least imo) as Young Link in OoT.
Yes he flies fast, but I'm pretty sure he only flies warp star fast when he touches/absorbs one, and unlike Kirby he lacks the ability to call one. And are you referring to Kirby Super Star Ultra when you say he can restore full HP at will? Because he couldn't do that at will. He had to accumulate points by killing enemies. So if we're being generous he gets to use any of his specials once (Meta-quick, Knight Call, Mach Tornado, Full Heal). FYI I'm referring to his mach Tornado that comes from his body and has a wide attack range, not the kind he (at least Dark Meta Knight) can shoot from his sword.
Deserves to be right below Pit.

Response in post


And sure Samus easily beats TP Link, but Samus vs Composite Link is a different ball game.

Palutena: Yeah, she's pretty decent in her own right. I was just saying why she's not top tier. Nice tier list, by the way.

Link: No, Link is Twilight Princess Link. All of the games have a different Link. Twilight Princess Link (AKA ) never had access to the Wind Waker, or the Ocarina, or the Loftwing, or the masks from Majora's Mask, etc. Link from Smash 64/Melee is Adult Link from OoT, as evidenced by him playing the Ocarina in the intro movie. Link from Brawl onwards is Link from TP, as shown by the Gale Boomerang, his appearance, and everything else I listed in a previous post. There is no unified Link to be featured in Smash in the first place; each Link is a completely different character.

Young Link: So when did Young Link from Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask use, say, the Wind Waker? Or the Spirit Train (or whatever it might be called in Spirit Tracks)? Or the King of Red Lions? Or anything else not from Ocarina of Time or Majora's Mask? Each Link is, canonically, a different character. It's directly stated in Zelda lore. In official Zelda canon, there is no "composite" Link. This topic is all about canon. If there is no "composite" Link in Zelda canon, then one cannot be used in a discussion based around canon.

 

[Crystanium]

I think Luggy meant they'd like to see analyses for Mario and Captain Falcon separately like the one I just did, since they quoted my post.

My issue with Mario is that he's an inconsistent character. In one game he can survive one thing, and then in another, he can't. I have no way to do an analysis for Mario. Captain Falcon is a human (or humanoid, perhaps) and hasn't shown anything that stands out aside from his vehicle.

 

[Munomario777]

My issue with Mario is that he's an inconsistent character. In one game he can survive one thing, and then in another, he can't. I have no way to do an analysis for Mario. Captain Falcon is a human (or humanoid, perhaps) and hasn't shown anything that stands out aside from his vehicle.

Yeah, those guys are kind of tough to do an analysis on. :/ Samus, Link, and the like would be doable, though, since they're either only in one game (, since he's from TP) or fairly consistent across multiple games ().

 

[Crystanium]

You're right, Pokémon mechanics make no sense, which is exactly why you shouldn't consider Earthquake an actual earthquake, but a powerful attack that functions like an earthquake.

An attack that functions like an earthquake is still an earthquake. Samus fights space pirates who wield a wave quake generator. It functions somewhat differently in that the wave covers a certain radius. Samus can leap over these with no issue. Earthquakes aren't an issue.

The exo skeleton thing is an interesting point, but I wouldn't read to much into the weak jolt since it affects all non-electric Pokémon of all strengths. It's not like some low level status-inflicting spell in an rpg that only affects weak enemies.

Well, Samus can put up with EMP grenades and lightning. The worst that's done to her is interference with her visor and negligible damage. I don't see thunder wave doing much.

Even if that would have taken place on the field Samus fought Quadraxis on, it wouldn't change the fact Mewtwo can teleport and fly while Mother Brain's "body" couldn't. If anything a bigger battlefield would have made it easier for Samus because she'd have more room to dodge.

That's fine. Mother Brain can take some serious punishment before actually being defeated. The only thing that killed her was the very weapon she used against Samus.

It's not just fire, it's elements in general. If we take Pokémon at it's word than Mewtwo is capable of surviving attacks from unbelievably hot temperatures (i.e. from Marcago's body or fire attacks in general), electrical attacks that would kill normal beings, etc. As we said earlier, the mechanics of Pokémon make no sense. I'm sure Mewtwo, like all Pokémon, has it's limits, but if it can survive attacks hot as the temperature as the Sun without bursting into flames or melting, than it (and all Pokémon) have otherworldy durability.

The problem with the Pokedex is that we have it stating that Macargo's body temperature is 18,000°F, and yet it's as hot as lava, which is 1,292°F on a low-end. Furthermore, with that logic, you're saying all Magcargo owners can withstand this temperature as well, and that trees and all other life can withstand that as well. This would mean that Charizard's flame wouldn't hurt. 1,800°F would make more sense, since lava can reach up to 2,192°F and the fact that Magcargos live in volcanoes. Flubs have happened, even if they're considered "canon". It's happened in Metroid Prime where Samus would have been able to live under 960 g unhindered. It makes sense to understand Zebes' mass as 4.8 sextillion tons, putting its gravity at 9.36, if I recall correctly.

I don't see why Samus's non-light beams could kill him when Links non-holy weapons couldn't. For example If he couldn't kill Ganondorf with his fire arrows than why would Samus's plasma beam/flamethrower work?

Because Samus' weapons aren't Link's weapons. Samus' plasma beam is hotter, that's why. As I said before, I checked Valoo's flame temperature using color temperature and then Samus' and hers is at least 1,000 degrees higher.

Their is only one Mario, it's not like RPG Mario's are in alternate universes.

For all we know, Paper Mario isn't Mario from Super Mario Galaxy. By "incarnation" I mean which game are we using. I don't know which game Mario is based off of in Super Smash Bros. Wii.

And sure Samus easily beats TP Link, but Samus vs Composite Link is a different ball game.

I'm certain even using a composite form isn't going to save Link. It doesn't matter, though. Composite forms aren't canon.

 

[Nerdicon]

Yes, composite Link gets access to everything. He's not just adult Link. The only game he besides WW (when he's 16) where his age is specifically stated is OoT, and there's no reason OoT Link wouldn't have access to his younger self's weapons even though it's from a different game. And I forgot about that item so that definitely raises his and Young Link's rank. But what do you mean about time gaps?

FYI Nerdicon, Young Link gets everything but equipment from Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword. And any Adult Link equipment that's not otherwise available in other games (e.g.: For some reason he can't use the boomerang in OoT even though many games with a non-Adult Link have let him use a boomerang). The reason he gets access to things from games like Zelda or Oracles of ages is, because you can see from art wok that he's not designed as an adult however he doesn't look quite as young (at least imo) as Young Link in OoT.
Yes he flies fast, but I'm pretty sure he only flies warp star fast when he touches/absorbs one, and unlike Kirby he lacks the ability to call one. And are you referring to Kirby Super Star Ultra when you say he can restore full HP at will? Because he couldn't do that at will. He had to accumulate points by killing enemies. So if we're being generous he gets to use any of his specials once (Meta-quick, Knight Call, Mach Tornado, Full Heal). FYI I'm referring to his mach Tornado that comes from his body and has a wide attack range, not the kind he (at least Dark Meta Knight) can shoot from his sword.
Deserves to be right below Pit.

When Link casted a spell in OoT, the environment around him would freeze in time, same thing happens when he plays the Ocarina. This may or may not just be a game mechanic, but Link is the Hero of Time. I also want to mention a few other things he has

• By playing the reverse Song of time he effectively halves the speed of everything except him, well kinda. If my memory is correct this for some reason doesn't slow down enemies
• Can shrink to minute size using a gnat hat while not losing any durability
• He can split into four less than cooperative versions of himself with the same abilities as him, just not the same items
• Being the brilliant strategist he is, I'm sure Farore's Wind might come in some handy
• The mirror shield reflects light and light-based attacks
• The Hylian Shield is indestructible, but he can't attack while holding it up.
• Masks
• Can lift gigantic pillars of rock and throw them with little to no effort

Is shown defeating his own men in Meta Knightmare Ultra and gaining points from that, it's reasonable to believe he could summon them just to kill them off. We see no evidence of Meta Knight absorbing the warp star in the Milky Way Wishes portion of Meta Knightmare Ultra, and we know by now how far apart the planets are, not to mention the whole teleportation at will thing, though it can be assumed he can't go far with it, else he would just teleport from planet to planet. The only other characters I can think of who can teleport at will like that are Pit and Palutena, though moving at light speed is basically teleporting in such a small space.

As a Pokémon can canonically have only 4 moves, someone should make a standard moveset for all the Pokémon involved in this discussion

 

[Munomario777]

For all we know, Paper Mario isn't Mario from Super Mario Galaxy. By "incarnation" I mean which game are we using. I don't know which game Mario is based off of in Super Smash Bros. Wii.

Well, we know it's the one from Sunshine, since F.L.U.D.D. makes an appearance in his moveset. The real question is finding out which other games this Mario appears in, but I think it's safe to say that most of the games share a Mario (barring Paper Mario, since that appears to be a different universe with different rules than the main Mario series, with everything being made of paper and all).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Analyzing .

Strength
Kirby is strongest in his Fighter form, where he punched a massive crack through a planet the size of earth. In his Fighter form, he can also throw multiple punches at once capable of knocking enemies around like pancakes. In his Throw and Ninja forms, he can hold and toss several steel enemies, the Metaluns. Kirby can carry around heavy weapons like the Grand Hammer or the Ultra Sword. He can enlarge his hammer while in Hammer form to around 16 inches, and can also swing it with enough force to send enemies flying around 8 feet up into the air. In the Cutter form, he can throw a cutter larger than he is. Some of the mentioned abilities might enhance his strength, but others likely don't. He can always carry a key larger than he is. The cracker he carries around can fire cannonballs that can break metal, meaning they must definitely be heavy.
Speed
Kirby can run at high speeds. In Wheel form, he can move at super speed, fast enough to destroy enemies. In Jet form, he can get speed boosts. In Missile form, he has different speeds. With these Copy Abilities, he can ride at potential supersonic speeds. He moves the fastest when on the Warp Star.
Copy Abilities

• Animal: Gives Kirby powerful claws.
• Archer: Makes Kirby an archer.
• Backdrop: Gives Kirby a vast amount of fighting moves.
• Ball: Turns Kirby into a ball, where he can bounce around and do damage.
• Balloon: Turns Kirby into a balloon.
• Beam: Gives Kirby a beam whip.
• Beetle: Gives Kirby a powerful horn he can use to grab and ram foes.
• Bell: Kirby gets two bells he can use to create soundwaves.
• Bomb: Kirby can throw bombs. He can combine this with Ice or Spark.
• Bubble: Kirby can use bubbles as attacks, or to aid him in copying abilities.
• Burning: Kirby's dash attack in Melee.
• Circus: Kirby can juggle pins and create balloons.
• Clean: Pretty useless.
• Cook: An instant kill.
• Copy: Kirby can copy abilities without inhaling.
• Crash: OHKO.
• Cupid: Gives Kirby wings and a bow he can use to fire up to three arrows at once.
• Cutter: Kirby can throw large, sharp boomerangs and control them.
• Fighter: Kirby has a vast amount of fighting moves and super strength.
• Fire: Kirby can breathe fire that he can control, and gets his Burning attack.
• Freeze: Kirby can emit fields to freeze enemies.
• Ghost: Kirby can fly and possess enemies. He also has a dash attack to use against stronger enemies.
• Hammer: Kirby gets a hammer with powerful moves such as Hammer Flip.
• Hi-Jump: Kirby can jump very high, emitting energy fields when he does.
• Ice: Kirby can skate and breathe ice that he can control.
• Jet: Kirby can charge up and fire himself, also hover.
• Laser: A mechanical headband with chargeable lasers that bounce off slopes.
• Leaf: Kirby can create vines, and transform into a pile of leaves that grants invincibility.
• Light: Kirby can light up dark areas.
• Magic: Kirby can pound stakes and destroy metal, able to summon doves, fire cards, and use Clown Spring.
• Metal: Kirby becomes invincible but slow.
• Mike: An instant kill that can be used three times.
• Mini: Kirby's size is halved.
• Mirror: Kirby can shoot mirror shards and reflect back any type of damage.
• Missile: Kirby can become a missile and fly, exploding into enemies to attack.
• Needle: Gives Kirby a needle hat. He can fire needles.
• Ninja: Gives shurikens, wall sticking, water walking, and down kicks
• Paint: OHKO.
• Parasol: Kirby can float, and block projectiles with his parasol. He can also emit stars from it.
• Plasma: Pretty much Spark.
• Sleep: Kirby can sleep to regain health, or pass it along to someone to make them sleep (though they don't regain health).
• Smash: Kirby has all of his moves from SSB.
• Spark: Kirby can emit and fire spark fields.
• Spear: Gives several spear attacks.
• Stone: Kirby can become a stone and crush foes, also invincible.
• Suplex: Improved Backdrop.
• Sword: Gives a sword that can move quickly, and be combined with Fire, Ice, or Spark.
• Throw: Uses his inhale to grab and throw opponents. He can also emit fire, ice, or spark if it is associated with what he is throwing.
  
• Tornado: Kirby can become a quick, invincible tornado that can become fiery, icy, or sparky when used on certain terrains.
• UFO: Kirby can fly and use beam whips. He gets an electrical forcefield as well.
• Water: Grants hydrokinesis.
• Wheel: Kirby can become a wheel, invulnerable to all attacks. He can become elemental while used on certain terrains, and even jump or change direction.
• Whip: Gives a long whip.
• Wing: Kirby can fly and shoot feathers.
• Yo-Yo: Kirby combines a yo-yo with breakout dancing.

Kirby can combine the Copy Abilities Burning, Stone, Ice, Needle, Bomb, Spark, and Cutter with each other for even more effects.
Other Abilities
Kirby can puff up to fly, and also turns things into stars when inside his mouth. The Star Rod lets him fire stars. Hypernova gives him a wider, more powerful inhale.
Feats

• Punched cracks through Pop Star as Fighter Kirby
• Blew up moon using Star Rod
• Defeated cosmic beings

As a Pokémon can canonically have only 4 moves, someone should make a standard moveset for all the Pokémon involved in this discussion

That's just game mechanics.

And with that, here is my new tier list.
Tier 1 (Godlike):
Sandbag







Tier 2 (Very Powerful):










Tabuu


Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)


































Tier 4 (Super Weak):

 

[Crystanium]

Well, we know it's the one from Sunshine, since F.L.U.D.D. makes an appearance in his moveset. The real question is finding out which other games this Mario appears in, but I think it's safe to say that most of the games share a Mario (barring Paper Mario, since that appears to be a different universe with different rules than the main Mario series, with everything being made of paper and all).

I have Super Mario Sunshine and completed it. To my knowledge, Mario doesn't have any impressive feats. We could still use the feats he demonstrates from Super Mario 64, however, since Sunshine is a sequel. Of course, there is a part where Mario is launched to Pinna Park, so that could be a durability feat, maybe. He takes damage from ordinary blunt attacks. This is where inconsistencies occur. In Super Mario 64, he could launch into walls without damage, either. I'm honestly not sure where to begin with him. He may have some resistance to blunt attacks, but from other attacks, he comes off as your ordinary human.

 

[Munomario777]

I have Super Mario Sunshine and completed it. To my knowledge, Mario doesn't have any impressive feats. We could still use the feats he demonstrates from Super Mario 64, however, since Sunshine is a sequel. Of course, there is a part where Mario is launched to Pinna Park, so that could be a durability feat, maybe. He takes damage from ordinary blunt attacks. This is where inconsistencies occur. In Super Mario 64, he could launch into walls without damage, either. I'm honestly not sure where to begin with him. He may have some resistance to blunt attacks, but from other attacks, he comes off as your ordinary human.

Well, I think Mario is the Mario from pretty much all of the Mario games, from Mario Bros. to Mario Galaxy to Mario RPG to Mario Kart (not Paper Mario though, for reasons mentioned above). There is a lot of inconsistency throughout the series, though.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, I think Mario is the Mario from pretty much all of the Mario games, from Mario Bros. to Mario Galaxy to Mario RPG to Mario Kart (not Paper Mario though, for reasons mentioned above). There is a lot of inconsistency throughout the series, though.

Of course, but I was thinking of the 3D Mario games. I didn't consider Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 because those are before Sunshine.

 

[Munomario777]

Of course, but I was thinking of the 3D Mario games. I didn't consider Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 because those are before Sunshine.

Well, Galaxy is represented by the stage (and Rosalina, of course), and most games after that are represented in some form (3D Land has the stage in 3DS, 3D World has the music track, NSMBU has the stage in Wii U, etc.). Plus, even if it wasn't represented, it's still the same Mario between Galaxy and Sunshine.

 

[Azaris]

In my opinion Zelda,Palutena,Rosalina
Let's just say the three of them have one thing in common (besides being girls).

 

[Nerdicon]

That's just game mechanics.

No, that's how Pokémon works, Pokémon can only have 4 moves so we should make a common moveset for this discussion.
Also Pit beats Palutena and Samus should be higher up

 

[Kirby Dragons]

No, that's how Pokémon works, Pokémon can only have 4 moves so we should make a common moveset for this discussion.
Also Pit beats Palutena and Samus should be higher up

Yeah that's how the games work, by game mechanics.

Palutena was weaker during her fight with Pit.

 

[Crystanium]

No, that's how Pokémon works, Pokémon can only have 4 moves so we should make a common moveset for this discussion.
Also Pit beats Palutena and Samus should be higher up

Pokémon is also turn-based. All Pokémon can use more than four moves.

Palutena should be higher than Pit by virtue of rank and the fact that Pit gets his abilities from Palutena.

 

[Nerdicon]

Pokémon is also turn-based. All Pokémon can use more than four moves.

Palutena should be higher than Pit by virtue of rank and the fact that Pit gets his abilities from Palutena.

I'm saying there has never been an instance where a Pokémon has used more than 4 moves in either the games or the anime, so it's not just a game mechanic, it's how Pokémon work, no exceptions unless you can name me some.

It was said in Kid Icarus Uprising that Palutena's power is on par if a little higher than Medusa's, which Pit also beat. And if you want to make the argument that because Palutena bestowed the weapons and powers upon Pit she wins, then Pit is only allowed to use his own weapons and abilities, which isn't much. Choose one representation not both.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm saying there has never been an instance where a Pokémon has used more than 4 moves in either the games or the anime, so it's not just a game mechanic, it's how Pokémon work, no exceptions unless you can name me some.

It was said in Kid Icarus Uprising that Palutena's power is on par if a little higher than Medusa's, which Pit also beat. And if you want to make the argument that because Palutena bestowed the weapons and powers upon Pit she wins, then Pit is only allowed to use his own weapons and abilities, which isn't much. Choose one representation not both.

And I'm saying there's never been an instance in Pokémon where one Pokémon makes two or more strikes than the other. According to your logic, all Pokémon should behave in this manner during battle, regardless of the opponent.

Samus defeated Dark Samus, who was superior to her. Samus has defeated all sorts of enemies who were superior to her. What's your point? The bow given to Pit is from Lady Palutena. I'm personally content with Pit using what is granted to him, just as Ganondorf can use the benefits of the Triforce of Power, which was granted to him by the goddess Din. So Lady Palutena is above Pit.

 

[Nerdicon]

And I'm saying there's never been an instance in Pokémon where one Pokémon makes two or more strikes than the other. According to your logic, all Pokémon should behave in this manner during battle, regardless of the opponent.

Samus defeated Dark Samus, who was superior to her. Samus has defeated all sorts of enemies who were superior to her. What's your point? The bow given to Pit is from Lady Palutena. I'm personally content with Pit using what is granted to him, just as Ganondorf can use the benefits of the Triforce of Power, which was granted to him by the goddess Din. So Lady Palutena is above Pit.

Yes, yes they should as there is no instance of anything otherwise...well the four move thing anyway, I'm sure a Pokémon wouldn't wait to attack in a real fight. Let's not forget that Pokémon can also only use moves a few times (Yes there are examples of this in the anime)

The reason I place Pit above Palutena is greatly influenced by the similarity in power between Palutena and Medusa, for reasons I don't feel like repeating.

 

[Crystanium]

Yes, yes they should as there is no instance of anything otherwise...well the four move thing anyway, I'm sure a Pokémon wouldn't wait to attack in a real fight. Let's not forget that Pokémon can also only use moves a few times (Yes there are examples of this in the anime)

The reason I place Pit above Palutena is greatly influenced by the similarity in power between Palutena and Medusa, for reasons I don't feel like repeating.

Well, it looks like you're on your own in that regard.

I know why you place Pit above Palutena. That doesn't address anything I said.

Here are the top six in my tier list. I've yet to consider the rest.

 

[TheLippyLapras]

As was said, Ganondorf is invencible to anything that is not holy, so basically only Link, Zelda or possibly Palutena and Pit would be able to beat him.

I don't know how strong the Psychic boys are (Ness and Lucas), but Mewtwo is able to destroy whole buildings with just a mere thought, he is also able to teleport a whole mountain to another location so...

Sonic also runs so incredibly fast that anyone who isn't able to hold him would probably not be able to hit him at all.

*Has traumatizing flashbacks*

It's no use!

It's no use!

It's no use!

No use...

 

[Munomario777]

*Has traumatizing flashbacks*

It's no use!

It's no use!

It's no use!

No use...

"Taaaaake this!" * gets launched into outer space *

By the way, I think that should have the three Pokemon he has in Brawl (that being, of course, , , and ), since the character of Pokemon Trainer is pretty much the team of them, and the three Pokemon are the characters you fight as.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

"Taaaaake this!" * gets launched into outer space *

By the way, I think that should have the three Pokemon he has in Brawl (that being, of course, , , and ), since the character of Pokemon Trainer is pretty much the team of them, and the three Pokemon are the characters you fight as.

Nope. Not unless his name was Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

 

[Munomario777]

Nope. Not unless his name was Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

Well, his name is "Pokemon Trainer," so if we're playing the name game, it's just the trainer, without any Pokemon.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Well, his name is "Pokemon Trainer," so if we're playing the name game, it's just the trainer, without any Pokemon.

Except the Pokemon are his standard equipment. He gets them no matter what. You don't see "Mario and Fire Flower" or "Ness and PSI", do you?

 

[Munomario777]

Except the Pokemon are his standard equipment. He gets them no matter what. You don't see "Mario and Fire Flower" or "Ness and PSI", do you?

Exactly. You're the one who suggested we go by names:

Nope. Not unless his name was Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard.

The three Pokemon of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are the three Pokemon this trainer has captured (or the three members of this three-pronged character). Thus, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" in this discussion is the Trainer commanding Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, since that's what the character is in Brawl.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Exactly. You're the one who suggested we go by names:

The three Pokemon of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are the three Pokemon this trainer has captured (or the three members of this three-pronged character). Thus, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" in this discussion is the Trainer commanding Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, since that's what the character is in Brawl.

I'm talking about any Pokémon, not just those three. We aren't discussing Brawl, we're discussing the canon games. In canon, a Pokémon trainer has six picks of hundreds of Pokemon, so that's what this trainer gets.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm talking about any Pokémon, not just those three. We aren't discussing Brawl, we're discussing the canon games. In canon, a Pokémon trainer has six picks of hundreds of Pokemon, so that's what this trainer gets.

Yes, we're talking about Brawl. We're taking the characters from Smash games (in this case the Pokemon Trainer from Brawl) as they appear in Smash and comparing those portrayals to canon. The fighters in Brawl that make up the Pokemon Trainer are , , , and . Thus, in this discussion, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" equals , , , and . Let's take your logic from the last sentence of your post, that being that characters should be able to have as many allies as they want (since that's what Pokemon essentially are):
- In canon, can ride a Yoshi, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, can command all of Hyrule (being the ruler of the kingdom and all), but we don't have her doing that here.
- In canon, can get Tails or Knuckles to help him out, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In (Ganon ) canon, has an army of Moblins and the like to summon, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, has an entire town to lead (he's the mayor, after all), but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, and have an entire space fighter team to call for backup, but we don't have them doing that here.
- In canon, could potentially use more Pokemon, but we don't have him doing that here.

We're testing the characters on their own, not the characters plus their allies.

 

[Nerdicon]

Yes, we're talking about Brawl. We're taking the characters from Smash games (in this case the Pokemon Trainer from Brawl) as they appear in Smash and comparing those portrayals to canon. The fighters in Brawl that make up the Pokemon Trainer are , , , and . Thus, in this discussion, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" equals , , , and . Let's take your logic from the last sentence of your post, that being that characters should be able to have as many allies as they want (since that's what Pokemon essentially are):
- In canon, can ride a Yoshi, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, can command all of Hyrule (being the ruler of the kingdom and all), but we don't have her doing that here.
- In canon, can get Tails or Knuckles to help him out, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In (Ganon ) canon, has an army of Moblins and the like to summon, but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, has an entire town to lead (he's the mayor, after all), but we don't have him doing that here.
- In canon, and have an entire space fighter team to call for backup, but we don't have them doing that here.
- In canon, could potentially use more Pokemon, but we don't have him doing that here.

We're testing the characters on their own, not the characters plus their allies.

In my opinion if they can summon the assistance it's fair game, but if they're just part of a team or command an army they can't appear, for example I'd allow Palutena's centurions but not Bowser's Koopa Troop

I'm again going to propose we make universal movesets for all the Pokémon involved in this discussion as Pokémon can only have 4 moves at a time

 

[Munomario777]

In my opinion if they can summon the assistance it's fair game, but if they're just part of a team or command an army they can't appear, for example I'd allow Palutena's centurions but not Bowser's Koopa Troop

I'm again going to propose we make universal movesets for all the Pokémon involved in this discussion as Pokémon can only have 4 moves at a time

The Centurions are an army. I think we should leave it to just the characters themselves (or teams of characters, in the case of Pokemon Trainer/Ice Climbers/Rosalina & Luma/etc.), since we're gauging the characters' abilities, not their armies'/allies'/summons'/etc. abilities.

As for the Pokemon, they can have more than four moves in the anime (source).

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Yes, we're talking about Brawl. We're taking the characters from Smash games (in this case the Pokemon Trainer from Brawl) as they appear in Smash and comparing those portrayals to canon. The fighters in Brawl that make up the Pokemon Trainer are , , , and . Thus, in this discussion, the entity of "Pokemon Trainer" equals , , , and . Let's take your logic from the last sentence of your post, that being that characters should be able to have as many allies as they want (since that's what Pokemon essentially are):
- In canon, can ride a Yoshi, but we don't have him doing that here. Not in every game. Trainers use Pokémon in every game.
- In canon, can command all of Hyrule (being the ruler of the kingdom and all), but we don't have her doing that here. Has she ever actually done that?
- In canon, can get Tails or Knuckles to help him out, but we don't have him doing that here. Sonic's fighting style doesn't revolve around Knuckles and Tails, it revolves around speed. A trainer's fighting style revolves around them using Pokémon.
- In (Ganon ) canon, has an army of Moblins and the like to summon, but we don't have him doing that here. Read Mario.
- In canon, has an entire town to lead (he's the mayor, after all), but we don't have him doing that here. Read Mario.
- In canon, and have an entire space fighter team to call for backup, but we don't have them doing that here. Their fighting style doesn't revolve around using their team, it revolves around blasters and such.
- In canon, could potentially use more Pokemon, but we don't have him doing that here. Actually, we do.

We're testing the characters on their own, not the characters plus their allies.

Pokémon aren't exactly allies. Their will is their trainer commanding them.
Pokémon are the fighting style of a trainer. If a man with a crowbar ran up to one, they'd throw out a Pokémon to attack it.

Even if we went your way, that means we'd be evaluating the trainer's options as well. Some of his options are to bench Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, and to get six completely new Pokémon.

 

[Munomario777]

Pokémon aren't exactly allies. Their will is their trainer commanding them.
Pokémon are the fighting style of a trainer. If a man with a crowbar ran up to one, they'd throw out a Pokémon to attack it.

Even if we went your way, that means we'd be evaluating the trainer's options as well. Some of his options are to bench Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard, and to get six completely new Pokémon.

"Ally: a state formally cooperating with another for a military or other purpose, typically by treaty." Pokemon cooperate with their trainer.

Where would he get the Pokemon from? This trainer (the character in Brawl) only has Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard. No other Pokemon are involved.

 

[Nerdicon]

The Centurions are an army. I think we should leave it to just the characters themselves (or teams of characters, in the case of Pokemon Trainer/Ice Climbers/Rosalina & Luma/etc.), since we're gauging the characters' abilities, not their armies'/allies'/summons'/etc. abilities.

As for the Pokemon, they can have more than four moves in the anime (source).

You have an actual source? Not trying to be a jerk if I sound like it (I probably do) but if you can could you give me some specific example. I won't blame you if you don't but I like to trust but verify.

 

[Etc_Guy]

I think it's easy to agree that Pokemon Trainer himself will be low. Like, really down there.

 

[Munomario777]

You have an actual source? Not trying to be a jerk if I sound like it (I probably do) but if you can could you give me some specific example. I won't blame you if you don't but I like to trust but verify.

I haven't seen the episodes firsthand, but I've heard a Dragonite in a battle in Pummelo Stadium and Ash's Krabby/Kingler cited as having used six and eight moves in a battle, respectively.

I think it's easy to agree that Pokemon Trainer himself will be low. Like, really down there.

If you mean with no Pokemon, I agree. Like, Wii Fit Trainer low.

 

[Nerdicon]

Whoa...that Dragonite knew 10 moves, I've reconsidered Mewtwo's tier placement entirely

 

[Crystanium]

I wish I could give Mario an analysis and I'm not sure what to think of Mario and Paper Mario. If we take Super Mario Bros. at face value, Mario should be able to react to objects traveling above the speed of sound. This would put his reaction time up there with Sonic, Samus, Pit, and Mega Man. While I'm not sure how to feel about the speed of objects in video games, I cannot ignore descriptions of attacks. At least for Paper Mario, who fights Beepboxer and attacks with sound waves, dodging these would suggest Mario can dodge things traveling at sonic speed.

The distance between Mario and Beepboxer, however, would determine how close he can be to avoid similar attacks. One capable of dodging an object traveling at sonic speed from 5 meters, for example, wouldn't necessarily mean that selfsame character could dodge objects traveling at sonic speeds if he was 3 meters away. If we accept cannonballs at face value, Mario is at least running in the supersonic range. This would also mean the Pegasus Boots in A Link to the Past probably puts Link close to the speed of sound as well.

 

[Munomario777]

I wish I could give Mario an analysis and I'm not sure what to think of Mario and Paper Mario. If we take Super Mario Bros. at face value, Mario should be able to react to objects traveling above the speed of sound. This would put his reaction time up there with Sonic, Samus, Pit, and Mega Man. While I'm not sure how to feel about the speed of objects in video games, I cannot ignore descriptions of attacks. At least for Paper Mario, who fights Beepboxer and attacks with sound waves, dodging these would suggest Mario can dodge things traveling at sonic speed.

The distance between Mario and Beepboxer, however, would determine how close he can be to avoid similar attacks. One capable of dodging an object traveling at sonic speed from 5 meters, for example, wouldn't necessarily mean that selfsame character could dodge objects traveling at sonic speeds if he was 3 meters away. If we accept cannonballs at face value, Mario is at least running in the supersonic range. This would also mean the Pegasus Boots in A Link to the Past probably puts Link close to the speed of sound as well.

Well, the way I see it, Mario =/= Paper Mario, for reasons mentioned in a previous post. Also, when is it said in SMB that Mario has that kind of reaction time?

Is it ever said that the cannonballs move that quickly in Mario? They sure don't appear to be moving that fast in the games, after all.

 

[Crystanium]

Well, the way I see it, Mario =/= Paper Mario, for reasons mentioned in a previous post. Also, when is it said in SMB that Mario has that kind of reaction time?

Is it ever said that the cannonballs move that quickly in Mario? They sure don't appear to be moving that fast in the games, after all.

I see it that way as well, but I would't be surprised if there are similarities between the two.

It's never said in SMB that Mario has this reaction time. It's just in SMB3 that Mario gets onto airships that fire cannonballs.

It's never said how fast the cannonballs travel in Mario. While visually, these cannonballs aren't flying very fast in the games, objects that are meant to travel fast, but do not in game play doesn't necessarily mean they're not traveling this speed. Here's what I mean. We have textual evidence for Sonic and Samus' speed, but game play limits these.

 

[Munomario777]

I see it that way as well, but I would't be surprised if there are similarities between the two.

It's never said in SMB that Mario has this reaction time. It's just in SMB3 that Mario gets onto airships that fire cannonballs.

It's never said how fast the cannonballs travel in Mario. While visually, these cannonballs aren't flying very fast in the games, objects that are meant to travel fast, but do not in game play doesn't necessarily mean they're not traveling this speed. Here's what I mean. We have textual evidence for Sonic and Samus' speed, but game play limits these.

There are, but there are too many differences to treat them as one entity. It's like the new Sonic Boom spinoff series; there's the same base characters, but many differences and it's a different universe.

The difference with Sonic and Samus is that, like you said, we have textual evidence. There's nothing indicating the cannonballs moving that fast, however.