Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Reiga]

Tier 1 (Godlike):

I hate it when people say Kirby is god like, sure he can eat people whole, but he is freaking 8 inches tall, in Kirby games he only sucks up right away enemies his size and can only suck up mini-bosses like Bonkers, which is double his size, after defeating them.
So, Kirby can only suck up and maybe or with Hypernova.

 

[ChikoLad]

This thread, is absolutely terrible. I was gonna come back to discuss the Kirby VS Buu thing, but jesus you guys reach to make sure nobody is better than your favourite. And I thought it was bad with Rosalina (who I still do not detract any of my previous statements on because the last posts I read on her here proved nothing and were trying to deny cut and dry facts).

I mean:

I couldn't find any source on the Warp Star travelling at the speed of light.

Stuff like this is exactly what I'm talking about.

It's literally in the name. "Warp Star". Think about what that is referring to.

 

[Munomario777]

This thread, is absolutely terrible. I was gonna come back to discuss the Kirby VS Buu thing, but jesus you guys reach to make sure nobody is better than your favourite. And I thought it was bad with Rosalina (who I still do not detract any of my previous statements on because the last posts I read on her here proved nothing and were trying to deny cut and dry facts).

I mean:



Stuff like this is exactly what I'm talking about.

It's literally in the name. "Warp Star". Think about what that is referring to.

Warp:
Verb:
1. become or cause to become bent or twisted out of shape, typically as a result of the effects of heat or dampness.
2. move (a ship) along by hauling on a rope attached to a stationary object on shore.
Noun:
1. a twist or distortion in the shape or form of something.
2. (in weaving) the threads on a loom over and under which other threads (the weft) are passed to make cloth.

I don't see anything mentioning the speed of light (it's not in the other definitions either, if you were curious). Also, again, if we're going by the move's name rather than canonical statements/in-game evidence/etc., then Kirby's Hypernova ability turns him into an exploding star. It's different if the name and canonical description of something match up (for example, the Light Speed Dash's name and its canonical description of travelling along a line of rings at light speed), but this isn't the case with the Warp Star's supposed light-speed travelling, since (as far as I'm aware; feel free to correct me if I'm missing something) there's no canonical statement or in-game evidence that it actually does that besides the name, which doesn't actually imply light speed travel in the first place (if it was, it would be something along the lines of Light Speed Star, for example).

 

[ChikoLad]

I don't see anything mentioning the speed of light (it's not in the other definitions either, if you were curious). Also, again, if we're going by the move's name rather than canonical statements/in-game evidence/etc., then Kirby's Hypernova ability turns him into an exploding star. It's different if the name and canonical description of something match up (for example, the Light Speed Dash's name and its canonical description of travelling along a line of rings at light speed), but this isn't the case with the Warp Star's supposed light-speed travelling, since (as far as I'm aware; feel free to correct me if I'm missing something) there's no canonical statement or in-game evidence that it actually does that besides the name, which doesn't actually imply light speed travel in the first place (if it was, it would be something along the lines of Light Speed Star, for example).

The Death Battle said the Warp Star can travel beyond the speed of light.

The thing is called "Warp Star", referencing "Warp Speed".

Warp Speed is faster than Light Speed.

This is evident in that Kirby uses it to fly between different planets in an instant. Like, all of the time.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

IIRC, the Warp Star trophy says that it's FTL. If you say it isn't canon, then Kirby is taller than 8 inches, as his trophy is where we got it from.

 

[Munomario777]

The Death Battle said the Warp Star can travel beyond the speed of light.

The thing is called "Warp Star", referencing "Warp Speed".

Warp Speed is faster than Light Speed.

This is evident in that Kirby uses it to fly between different planets in an instant. Like, all of the time.

What source did Death Battle get that from exactly? It's not a canonical/official source itself, after all; I could make a video on YouTube saying that, say, Wii Fit Trainer has the ability to summon giant robots from the earth, but that's clearly not the case.

When was it said that "Warp Star" was a direct reference to "Warp Speed?" Also, again, even if it was, it doesn't prove anything, as demonstrated by, again, Kirby's own Hypernova ability, which clearly doesn't do what the name implies (it sucks things in rather than exploding).

Yes, it is. However, that's irrelevant unless you can provide solid evidence that it is relevant.

When does Kirby use the Warp Star to travel between planets (which wouldn't require light speed travel to do quickly, by the way, especially if the planets are relatively close)? I haven't found a source for it; I'd appreciate if you could link to one.

IIRC, the Warp Star trophy says that it's FTL. If you say it isn't canon, then Kirby is taller than 8 inches, as his trophy is where we got it from.

It doesn't look like it, since none of its trophy descriptions seem to mention anything about light speed.

 

[ChikoLad]

When was it said that "Warp Star" was a direct reference to "Warp Speed?"

Could say the same about the Light Dash.

It's a pretty obvious reference. Writers don't need to directly point everything out, or it cheapens the immersion of their work. The implication of the name "Warp Star" is pretty obvious, since it is a mode of transportation.

When does Kirby use the Warp Star to travel between planets

He does it regularly in most of the mainline Kirby games, as "worlds" in a Kirby game are literally different planets, such as Pop Star, which is Kirby's home planet.

 

[Munomario777]

Could say the same about the Light Dash.

It's a pretty obvious reference. Writers don't need to directly point everything out, or it cheapens the immersion of their work. The implication of the name "Warp Star" is pretty obvious, since it is a mode of transportation.



He does it regularly in most of the mainline Kirby games, as "worlds" in a Kirby game are literally different planets, such as Pop Star, which is Kirby's home planet.

The Light Speed Dash is directly stated in its first appearance to be a move that propels the user at the speed of light.

Yes, but again, naming isn't concrete evidence when it's not backed by in-game/canonical evidence (to list another example, while Treecko is clearly named after trees, that doesn't mean he is a tree, even though he's related to plants, being a Grass-type Pokemon).

Again, I'd appreciate if you could link a source where the Warp Star is seen acting this way.

 

[ChikoLad]

The Light Speed Dash is directly stated in its first appearance to be a move that propels the user at the speed of light.

Yes, but again, naming isn't concrete evidence when it's not backed by in-game/canonical evidence (to list another example, while Treecko is clearly named after trees, that doesn't mean he is a tree, even though he's related to plants, being a Grass-type Pokemon).

Again, I'd appreciate if you could link a source where the Warp Star is seen acting this way.

I'm not linking because it happens literally mid-stage in a few Kirby games, and then other Kirby games, like 64, Super Star, and Return to Dream Land, even depict Kirby moving between different planets on a world map screen.

You are asking me to source common knowledge. I will not, because you have no place discussing a character you barely have any knowledge of. If you are discussing Kirby, you should at LEAST know how his mode of transportation functions and how his games are structured.

Also, definite source for the Warp Star being capable of Warp Speed is indeed a Smash Bros trophy, the Brawl one, to be specific:

 

[Munomario777]

I'm not linking because it happens literally mid-stage in a few Kirby games, and then other Kirby games, like 64, Super Star, and Return to Dream Land, even depict Kirby moving between different planets on a world map screen.

You are asking me to source common knowledge. I will not, because you have no place discussing a character you barely have any knowledge of. If you are discussing Kirby, you should at LEAST know how his mode of transportation functions and how his games are structured.

Also, definite source for the Warp Star being capable of Warp Speed is indeed a Smash Bros trophy, the Brawl one, to be specific:

When it happens mid-stage, it's not travelling to different planets (since it happens, you know, mid-stage). In Kirby 64, the Warp Star isn't used in the world selection. In Kirby Super Star, I haven't found the planets you're referring to; it would be appreciated if you could specify a mode or something to that effect. In Return to Dream Land, it doesn't actually move from planet to planet, and it's shown going at a relatively slow place. I'm aware of how the games are structured, and I'm aware of his mode of transportation. The games are structured level-to-level, with copy abilities, flight, and other attributes. His mode of transportation is the Warp Star, and it functions by Kirby finding it, riding it, and it taking off at high speeds through the air. Also, I don't know why you're referring to a stage-selection method in one game series "common knowledge."

I believe it's been agreed (you said it at one point as well, IIRC) that Smash is canon only if it is in line with canon. I recall you bringing this up during your argument that Rosalina can use telekinesis, since she does it in Smash as her grab and is seen levitating (as well as lift other objects using this method, I believe) in Galaxy and other games. This is fine, since the Smash move is reflected in canon (and the other way around). However, there's nothing showing that the Warp Star can travel at warp speed/light speed in the games, or in official game canon. There's only an unproven possible reference in the name (which isn't solid evidence because, again, Hypernova; as a side note, translation issues could be playing a part in this) and a Smash source that isn't backed up by canon. Anyway, even if it did travel at light speed/warp speed, it would be more of a tool to create or close gaps than anything, since I don't believe we've seen it actually attack enemies in the games (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

When it happens mid-stage, it's not travelling to different planets (since it happens, you know, mid-stage). In Kirby 64, the Warp Star isn't used in the world selection. In Kirby Super Star, I haven't found the planets you're referring to; it would be appreciated if you could specify a mode or something to that effect. In Return to Dream Land, it doesn't actually move from planet to planet, and it's shown going at a relatively slow place. I'm aware of how the games are structured, and I'm aware of his mode of transportation. The games are structured level-to-level, with copy abilities, flight, and other attributes. His mode of transportation is the Warp Star, and it functions by Kirby finding it, riding it, and it taking off at high speeds through the air. Also, I don't know why you're referring to a stage-selection method in one game series "common knowledge."

I believe it's been agreed (you said it at one point as well, IIRC) that Smash is canon only if it is in line with canon. I recall you bringing this up during your argument that Rosalina can use telekinesis, since she does it in Smash as her grab and is seen levitating (as well as lift other objects using this method, I believe) in Galaxy and other games. This is fine, since the Smash move is reflected in canon (and the other way around). However, there's nothing showing that the Warp Star can travel at warp speed/light speed in the games, or in official game canon. There's only an unproven possible reference in the name (which isn't solid evidence because, again, Hypernova; as a side note, translation issues could be playing a part in this) and a Smash source that isn't backed up by canon. Anyway, even if it did travel at light speed/warp speed, it would be more of a tool to create or close gaps than anything, since I don't believe we've seen it actually attack enemies in the games (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Although sakurai works on both kirby and smash, It's not reaching to think that he'd want the trophies of his franchise to be accurate. Especially in brawl

 

[Munomario777]

Although sakurai works on both kirby and smash, It's not reaching to think that he'd want the trophies of his franchise to be accurate. Especially in brawl

Well, I think if we're allowing development reasoning (which I don't think it should, since it would elevate certain evidence of the same nature above other evidence of that nature just because of the person who made it in real life, which didn't happen in canon), anything like this would have to be based on the original Japanese version, since that's the version that Sakurai actually worked on, while the translation team over at the Treehouse (and possibly others) handled the international translation.

 

[ChikoLad]

When it happens mid-stage, it's not travelling to different planets (since it happens, you know, mid-stage). In Kirby 64, the Warp Star isn't used in the world selection. In Kirby Super Star, I haven't found the planets you're referring to; it would be appreciated if you could specify a mode or something to that effect. In Return to Dream Land, it doesn't actually move from planet to planet, and it's shown going at a relatively slow place. I'm aware of how the games are structured, and I'm aware of his mode of transportation. The games are structured level-to-level, with copy abilities, flight, and other attributes. His mode of transportation is the Warp Star, and it functions by Kirby finding it, riding it, and it taking off at high speeds through the air. Also, I don't know why you're referring to a stage-selection method in one game series "common knowledge."

I believe it's been agreed (you said it at one point as well, IIRC) that Smash is canon only if it is in line with canon. I recall you bringing this up during your argument that Rosalina can use telekinesis, since she does it in Smash as her grab and is seen levitating (as well as lift other objects using this method, I believe) in Galaxy and other games. This is fine, since the Smash move is reflected in canon (and the other way around). However, there's nothing showing that the Warp Star can travel at warp speed/light speed in the games, or in official game canon. There's only an unproven possible reference in the name (which isn't solid evidence because, again, Hypernova; as a side note, translation issues could be playing a part in this) and a Smash source that isn't backed up by canon. Anyway, even if it did travel at light speed/warp speed, it would be more of a tool to create or close gaps than anything, since I don't believe we've seen it actually attack enemies in the games (again, correct me if I'm wrong).

Actually, there were certain stages in the old Kirby games where Kirby did go to a different planet mid-stage. I can't remember off the top of my head, but the there were stages where you would finish an area, hop on a Warp Star, and head to a different planet, being the next area in the stage.

It's shown in a cutscene that Kirby uses the Warp Star to travel to the different planets in 64. He takes out a weird cellphone thing, and calls it to him, then takes off on it. This cutscene happens when you clear Pop Star, the first World in the game.

Kirby uses the Warp Star to travel between worlds in the Milky Way Dreams game in Super Star. You can actually manually control him on the map screen (as in he is not even stuck to a line).

Also, that trophy does not contradict canon. When I said "Smash is canon if it doesn't contradict it", I was referring to movesets and such. Trophies are a different story, as they are literally there to explain canon trivia from the various games represented in Smash, and do not aim to separate it (in fact, they are there to clear things up, such as Kirby's canon size).

The only reason we have not seen Kirby use it at warp speed is because it'd physically impossible to control it for the player. Just like how Sonic definitely does not run at even super sonic speeds when you are controlling him, let alone light speed.

 

[Munomario777]

Actually, there were certain stages in the old Kirby games where Kirby did go to a different planet mid-stage. I can't remember off the top of my head, but the there were stages where you would finish an area, hop on a Warp Star, and head to a different planet, being the next area in the stage.

It's shown in a cutscene that Kirby uses the Warp Star to travel to the different planets in 64. He takes out a weird cellphone thing, and calls it to him, then takes off on it. This cutscene happens when you clear Pop Star, the first World in the game.

Kirby uses the Warp Star to travel between worlds in the Milky Way Dreams game in Super Star. You can actually manually control him on the map screen (as in he is not even stuck to a line).

Also, that trophy does not contradict canon. When I said "Smash is canon if it doesn't contradict it", I was referring to movesets and such. Trophies are a different story, as they are literally there to explain canon trivia from the various games represented in Smash, and do not aim to separate it (in fact, they are there to clear things up, such as Kirby's canon size).

The only reason we have not seen Kirby use it at warp speed is because it'd physically impossible to control it for the player. Just like how Sonic definitely does not run at even super sonic speeds when you are controlling him, let alone light speed.

Hmm, interesting. Do you remember which ones?

Is this (skip to about seven minutes in) not the ending of the first world in that game? I don't see a Warp Star anywhere in there.

Thank you for clarifying. However, looking at the gameplay, that doesn't look like warp speed/light speed to me.

Trophies and movesets are both from the same game, that being Smash Brothers; thus, they should be treated equally canonically.

Except in most instances, the Warp Star isn't actually being controlled by the player (such as the inter-level travel). This is a good explanation for Sonic, on the other hand, since the games literally say that he can move faster than the gameplay lets on. There's no such statement in Kirby, as far as I'm aware.

 

[Reiga]

If I remember correctly, Kirby Squeak Squad's final world, Gamble Galaxy, is in space and there is a part where you take a warp star and travel along through space.

 

[ChikoLad]

Like I said, I don't remember which ones exactly (been a while since I played Classic Kirby). Still, point still stands that he does use it to travel between planets. Milky Way Dreams shows that pretty clearly.

Trophies are not part of the Smash canon (excluding the SSE using figther trophies as a stand in for death), they are fourth wall breaking collectibles for the player to collect and gain trivia from. They are bite sized wiki pages written by Nintendo themselves. Trying to say they can't be referenced is the epitome of reaching.

 

[Munomario777]

Like I said, I don't remember which ones exactly (been a while since I played Classic Kirby). Still, point still stands that he does use it to travel between planets. Milky Way Dreams shows that pretty clearly.

Trophies are not part of the Smash canon (excluding the SSE using figther trophies as a stand in for death), they are fourth wall breaking collectibles for the player to collect and gain trivia from. They are bite sized wiki pages written by Nintendo themselves. Trying to say they can't be referenced is the epitome of reaching.

Yes, but that doesn't mean it travels at warp speed.

Except Subspace, where the world is literally called the "World of Trophies." I'm not saying they can't be referenced. I'm saying that they should be treated equally to how movesets and the like are treated, that being canon if they're supported by evidence from canon games. Just like you can't trust a Wikia page without a source, you can't trust a trophy without evidence in the games.

 

[ChikoLad]

Yes, but that doesn't mean it travels at warp speed.

Except Subspace, where the world is literally called the "World of Trophies." I'm not saying they can't be referenced. I'm saying that they should be treated equally to how movesets and the like are treated, that being canon if they're supported by evidence from canon games. Just like you can't trust a Wikia page without a source, you can't trust a trophy without evidence in the games.

It's called the World of Trophies, but that's referring to the fighters. The other trophies you collect are again, fourth wall breaking collectibles, and are collected across all modes in the game. Trophies also exist in Melee and Smash 4, which don't even have story modes.

Except nothing in the games contradict that the Warp Star can travel at warp speed. Not once is it stated that it can't. Not seeing it travel that speed doesn't mean it can't. Sonic hasn't been seen moving at the speed of light on camera (the Light Speed Dash/Attack are nowhere near moving at Light Speed in actual practice, since it would be too fast for the player and the game engine), but it's been stated that he can move that speed (and yet you willingly accept that, but no surprise there). Kirby's Warp Star is the exact same scenario, only with warp speed.

The trophies are absolutely trustworthy, ESPECIALLY in the case of Kirby. Sakurai created Kirby. Sakurai made Brawl, and in that game, he states that the Warp Star, something he came up with, can travel at warp speed. It's canon. If you try to deny that, your extreme bias is showing.

 

[Munomario777]

It's called the World of Trophies, but that's referring to the fighters. The other trophies you collect are again, fourth wall breaking collectibles, and are collected across all modes in the game. Trophies also exist in Melee and Smash 4, which don't even have story modes.

Except nothing in the games contradict that the Warp Star can travel at warp speed. Not once is it stated that it can't. Not seeing it travel that speed doesn't mean it can't. Sonic hasn't been seen moving at the speed of light on camera (the Light Speed Dash/Attack are nowhere near moving at Light Speed in actual practice, since it would be too fast for the player and the game engine), but it's been stated that he can move that speed (and yet you willingly accept that, but no surprise there). Kirby's Warp Star is the exact same scenario, only with warp speed.

The trophies are absolutely trustworthy, ESPECIALLY in the case of Kirby. Sakurai created Kirby. Sakurai made Brawl, and in that game, he states that the Warp Star, something he came up with, can travel at warp speed. It's canon. If you try to deny that, your extreme bias is showing.

Except they appear in matches and in Subspace itself as collectibles, in the main modes of the game. Even if they're not canon, then your argument for the Warp Star going at warp speed falls apart, since the only point in its favor is a trophy.

The difference is that the core Sonic series from the get-go stated that the Light Speed Dash moves at light speed, while that's never really been hinted at in Kirby for the Warp Star. Smash is a special case when it comes to canon; often, it defies canon, but it can sometimes be used to back up existing points. Some examples of Smash backing up existing canon include Rosalina's telekinesis, Mario's innate fireball ability (he has this in games such as Mario RPG), Luigi's jumping prowess and slippery physics (he obviously behaves like this in-game), Jigglypuff's light weight (lightest character in the game, as well as many animations supporting this), etc. The difference is that the Warp Star travelling at warp speed came out of nowhere, with no canonical source, while the other examples have the examples from Galaxy, Mario RPG, the main Mario series, and Jigglypuff's status as the "balloon Pokemon," respectively. Nowhere in Kirby canon does it show or say that the Warp Star can exceed the speed of light.

Who wrote the trophy info (particularly in English)? I doubt Sakurai wrote at least the English versions. Also, I'm not being biased; I'm stating that all trophies should be treated equal (along with movesets), since there's no canonical reason for them to be treated otherwise, which, if anything, is being as unbiased as possible for this particular detail. You, on the other hand, are saying that just because the games share a creator (which means nothing in terms of canon, since Sakurai doesn't exist in Kirby/Kid Icarus/etc. canon) means that the Kirby (and, by extension, Kid Icarus) trophies are somehow more canonical than the rest, even when they're all from the exact same feature within the exact same game.

 

[Zionaze]

so from what i learned after reading each and every post is that...

is S tier living among the gods, blessed with immortality and infinite power, ruling over each and everyone
with his faithful submarine cuz landmaster and arwing is too mainstream

k

ty

bai

 

[ChikoLad]

Except they appear in matches and in Subspace itself as collectibles, in the main modes of the game. Even if they're not canon, then your argument for the Warp Star going at warp speed falls apart, since the only point in its favor is a trophy.

The difference is that the core Sonic series from the get-go stated that the Light Speed Dash moves at light speed, while that's never really been hinted at in Kirby for the Warp Star. Smash is a special case when it comes to canon; often, it defies canon, but it can sometimes be used to back up existing points. Some examples of Smash backing up existing canon include Rosalina's telekinesis, Mario's innate fireball ability (he has this in games such as Mario RPG), Luigi's jumping prowess and slippery physics (he obviously behaves like this in-game), Jigglypuff's light weight (lightest character in the game, as well as many animations supporting this), etc. The difference is that the Warp Star travelling at warp speed came out of nowhere, with no canonical source, while the other examples have the examples from Galaxy, Mario RPG, the main Mario series, and Jigglypuff's status as the "balloon Pokemon," respectively. Nowhere in Kirby canon does it show or say that the Warp Star can exceed the speed of light.

Who wrote the trophy info (particularly in English)? I doubt Sakurai wrote at least the English versions. Also, I'm not being biased; I'm stating that all trophies should be treated equal (along with movesets), since there's no canonical reason for them to be treated otherwise, which, if anything, is being as unbiased as possible for this particular detail. You, on the other hand, are saying that just because the games share a creator (which means nothing in terms of canon, since Sakurai doesn't exist in Kirby/Kid Icarus/etc. canon) means that the Kirby (and, by extension, Kid Icarus) trophies are somehow more canonical than the rest, even when they're all from the exact same feature within the exact same game.

Oh my GOD, you will go so far to twist something.

The act of a character picking up a Warp Star trophy is not something that happens as part of any story. It is picked up by the player, and serves as lore exposition for the player to read at their own leisure (as Smash is a celebration of Nintendo franchises, it naturally gives you accurate info on those franchises). The trophy being collected isn't canon. It's just a fourth wall breaking collectible that allows the player to look at a model of something up close.

The TROPHY DESCRIPTION is canon. It is describing what the Warp Star is like in the source material. As every other trophy description does. And in this particular instance, the trophy description is written by the guy who INVENTED the item in question. And it says it can travel at warp speed.

Like, I love how you ask for a source on something, get said source, and then make up a rule on the spot that "invalidates" that source. You must have some ego if you think your arbitrary rules are more important than the creator of both the Kirby and Smash franchise telling you that something featured in both of those franchises works a certain way. This is literally someone else's creation, a mythos THEY created, it is both implied and outright said by the series' creator that the Warp Star travels at warp speed, and yet you STILL reach for reasons that this isn't the case. Your posts on this matter thus far are just fancy ways of saying "you're wrong because I said you are".

This is why debating with you is impossible. Sonic absolutely has to be the best, and you will make up whatever rules you feel are necessary to make that the case in your head. But it's not fooling anyone.

And for the record, Kirby's Warp Star not actually travelling at warp speed in-game even during automated sequences is the result of hardware limitations anyway. It's actually near impossible to have something move at warp speed in a game, because the game needs time to load things. The most powerful console a main Kirby game has been on so far is a Wii, which is to say, not an extremely powerful one. I've messed around with making things move at warp speed in game engines, and it does not work out well. That's why Kirby's Warp Star simply moves at a speed of "really ****in' fast and crashes through everything" in the games, as it's the closest they can get to warp speed. And for the record, the speed at which the Warp Star travels in-game still looks to be a lot faster than what Sonic has been portrayed moving at.

And with that I'm done with this topic again, because it ALWAYS devolves into someone making up rules like this and it's surprisingly aggravating.

 

[Zionaze]

Oh my GOD, you will go so far to twist something.

The act of a character picking up a Warp Star trophy is not something that happens as part of any story. It is picked up by the player, and serves as lore exposition for the player to read at their own leisure (as Smash is a celebration of Nintendo franchises, it naturally gives you accurate info on those franchises). The trophy being collected isn't canon. It's just a fourth wall breaking collectible that allows the player to look at a model of something up close.

The TROPHY DESCRIPTION is canon. It is describing what the Warp Star is like in the source material. As every other trophy description does. And in this particular instance, the trophy description is written by the guy who INVENTED the item in question. And it says it can travel at warp speed.

Like, I love how you ask for a source on something, get said source, and then make up a rule on the spot that "invalidates" that source. You must have some ego if you think your arbitrary rules are more important than the creator of both the Kirby and Smash franchise telling you that something featured in both of those franchises works a certain way. This is literally someone else's creation, a mythos THEY created, it is both implied and outright said by the series' creator that the Warp Star travels at warp speed, and yet you STILL reach for reasons that this isn't the case. Your posts on this matter thus far are just fancy ways of saying "you're wrong because I said you are".

This is why debating with you is impossible. Sonic absolutely has to be the best, and you will make up whatever rules you feel are necessary to make that the case in your head. But it's not fooling anyone.

And for the record, Kirby's Warp Star not actually travelling at warp speed in-game even during automated sequences is the result of hardware limitations anyway. It's actually near impossible to have something move at warp speed in a game, because the game needs time to load things. The most powerful console a main Kirby game has been on so far is a Wii, which is to say, not an extremely powerful one. I've messed around with making things move at warp speed in game engines, and it does not work out well. That's why Kirby's Warp Star simply moves at a speed of "really ****in' fast and crashes through everything" in the games, as it's the closest they can get to warp speed. And for the record, the speed at which the Warp Star travels in-game still looks to be a lot faster than what Sonic has been portrayed moving at.

And with that I'm done with this topic again, because it ALWAYS devolves into someone making up rules like this and it's surprisingly aggravating.

so what your trying to say in short is that falco is god tier hmm?

 

[deadcult]

I've been reading this thread on and off or a while so I want to make a few points about the Pokémon and Pokémon Trainer and why I think he is the strongest.

Firstly, in regards to the discussion about if the Pokémon only draw from the game or the show, I would say that they draw from the show as well. All the voices of the Pokémon are exactly like that of their anime counter parts. Pikachu has his signature "Pika Pika"(also added to the games in X and Y) and Charzard, Greninja, and Jiggily Puff have their respected roars from the show. If Smash were going to only draw from the games and only the games, then Charzard and Jiggily Puff would still have their 8 bit shriek.

Its also important to note that the games impose restrictions in order to add more of a challenge and gameplay elements. The Pokémon in smash and periodically, I believe, in the anime they have been able to use more then 4 moves. Plus combo moves together for various effects not limited to turn based combat. I would say legendarys and especially extremely intelligent Pokémon such as Mewtwo would be able to use more then 4 moves at a time and in manners more then just their intended affects.

As far as the Pokémon Trainer goes, In the game we can basically obtain any legendary at some point assuming you partake in events. If we assume our Pokémon Trainer is the very best that a Pokémon trainer can be, then he basically has six of the most powerful Pokémon of his choosing. He basically has a God and Pokémon that can manipulate space and time. I know someone said early that he shouldn't have legendarys but if you can have them in the game, and even some characters in the anime can have one then it is a viable option.

And for my next point, I would like to discuss parameters in regards to who is the strongest in the Smash roster. Canonically, if we let all our fighters go at it full power with nothing held back, then the Pokémon trainer essentially has space, time and reality at his finger tips. Although I don't know as much about the rest of the roster, it appears that Sonic and Kirby can travel at the speed of light or faster, but even then are still properties dictated by the laws and physics of the universe. Sonic can stop time or something along those lines but what is that to a Pokémon that controls time, or is a god, or a ghost that is essentially already dead? And that is my argument for why the Pokémon Trainer, with the combined might of the six Pokémon of his choosing, is the strongest.

And really any character can beat another if it is written that way. It happens in comics all the time where a hero, against all odds, defeats something that in no way should of. You could say that different characters would approach a situation differently in regards to their personalities. Would any of them go all out when first facing a challenger?

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I've been reading this thread on and off or a while so I want to make a few points about the Pokémon and Pokémon Trainer and why I think he is the strongest.

Firstly, in regards to the discussion about if the Pokémon only draw from the game or the show, I would say that they draw from the show as well. All the voices of the Pokémon are exactly like that of their anime counter parts. Pikachu has his signature "Pika Pika"(also added to the games in X and Y) and Charzard, Greninja, and Jiggily Puff have their respected roars from the show. If Smash were going to only draw from the games and only the games, then Charzard and Jiggily Puff would still have their 8 bit shriek.

Its also important to note that the games impose restrictions in order to add more of a challenge and gameplay elements. The Pokémon in smash and periodically, I believe, in the anime they have been able to use more then 4 moves. Plus combo moves together for various effects not limited to turn based combat. I would say legendarys and especially extremely intelligent Pokémon such as Mewtwo would be able to use more then 4 moves at a time and in manners more then just their intended affects.

As far as the Pokémon Trainer goes, In the game we can basically obtain any legendary at some point assuming you partake in events. If we assume our Pokémon Trainer is the very best that a Pokémon trainer can be, then he basically has six of the most powerful Pokémon of his choosing. He basically has a God and Pokémon that can manipulate space and time. I know someone said early that he shouldn't have legendarys but if you can have them in the game, and even some characters in the anime can have one then it is a viable option.

And for my next point, I would like to discuss parameters in regards to who is the strongest in the Smash roster. Canonically, if we let all our fighters go at it full power with nothing held back, then the Pokémon trainer essentially has space, time and reality at his finger tips. Although I don't know as much about the rest of the roster, it appears that Sonic and Kirby can travel at the speed of light or faster, but even then are still properties dictated by the laws and physics of the universe. Sonic can stop time or something along those lines but what is that to a Pokémon that controls time, or is a god, or a ghost that is essentially already dead? And that is my argument for why the Pokémon Trainer, with the combined might of the six Pokémon of his choosing, is the strongest.

And really any character can beat another if it is written that way. It happens in comics all the time where a hero, against all odds, defeats something that in no way should of. You could say that different characters would approach a situation differently in regards to their personalities. Would any of them go all out when first facing a challenger?

Although this is red specifically, meaning he can only use pokemon up until 3rd gen. So no god for him

 

[Crystanium]

The immunity is a power of the sword, not the universe. There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't carry into other universes.

The power of the sword originates from the Fire Emblem series. If it carries over, prove to me that Marth will be able to withstand 61,740 joules, or temperatures reaching 3,000 centigrade, or beams passing through solid barriers, or bombs capable of destroying sandstone? (The Mohs scale of hardness would place sandstone at a hardness of 6.5 to 7. Diamond is 10.)

Marth wouldn't win, but Kirby could win by a method stated below. Ganon would resist all attacks, and Mewtwo could crush her suit using TK.

Ganondorf would resist all attacks? Can you prove that?

Mewtwo could crush Samus' suit using telekinesis? Can you prove that, too? The move called "Psychic" has only been demonstrated as producing an aura around the target and throwing him/her. I've never seen it crush anyone. What's worth noting is how deep Samus can travel under water without being crushed by the pressure. For every 10 meters under water, pressure increases by 1 atmosphere, which is equal to 101,325 pascals.

Ike was granted power by a goddess.

And?

Mac wouldn't win in a fight, but is physically stronger, resisting DK's punches and throwing stronger ones. I believe the moon is the same size, but regardless, knocking anything out of its spatial orbit is a great feat, which Little Mac surpassed.

Again, such force would cause either one flying, even if they could withstand the force. It's also worth asking if this game was released prior to Donkey Kong Country Returns, at which point I'll ignore.

Okay about Marth, but Kirby also has a squishy, durable body, and with the Star Rod, he could hurt Samus. If Rosalina is universal like some say she is, she can beat Samus. But if not, Samus would end up victorious.

That doesn't prove anything to me about Kirby winning.

Toon Link is
The Wind Waker, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Young Link is all of these, as well as Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and Link Between Worlds.

Only certain incarnations are the same, but either way, as far as I'm aware, we're not doing composite forms, which aren't canon anyway.

This makes Meta Knight about planetary, as he is stronger than Marx and others. The Dimensional Cape grants space manipulation, which is an OP power. He can also block attacks, and with Galaxia, he can create powerful sword beams and fire tornadoes.

That doesn't tell me anything. If Meta Knight defeated Marx, who was a planetary threat, it wouldn't make Meta Knight a planetary threat. It would just mean Meta Knight had other means to get around this problem. I've played Kirby Super Star for the SNES and fought Marx. Nothing about him is remotely impressive. Dimensional Cape says nothing about Meta Knight manipulating space, as in he can alter space at his will. Maybe it hides him in another dimension, but you'll need to prove it's effective.

Also, while I don't take these characters in their composite forms, Samus has the Dark Visor in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, which allows her to see transdimensional enemies and objects. The sonic boom, a missile combo, "distorts time and space" according to director Mark Pacini of the Metroid Prime trilogy. You'll need to impress me with Meta Knight and Galaxia to persuade me.

As for the discussion about Kirby's Warp Star, traveling through space requires at least light speed travel. Kirby travels from planet to planet and to other galaxies. According to the Oxford English Dictionary,

1.1 [AS MODIFIER] Relating to or denoting (fictional or hypothetical) space travel by means of distorting space-time: the craft possessed warp drivewarp speed
MORE EXAMPLE SENTENCES

• Its benefits included intergalactic space travel at warp speed.
• My nan had one of those salad spinners, which sent leaves hurtling through space at warp speed and produced enough water to irrigate a smallholding.
• Those are in normal space not warp space engines.

So, if not light speed travel, at least in the same sense as Sonic, Kirby could very well be pulling an Alcubierre drive.

 

[deadcult]

Although this is red specifically, meaning he can only use pokemon up until 3rd gen. So no god for him

I just looked up several Wikis and the best I got was he was modeled after Red, but no definitive information to if he is really Red. Also his trophy description makes no mention of Red and just gives a basic definition of a Pokémon trainer.

 

[TheDarkKnightNoivern]

I just looked up several Wikis and the best I got was he was modeled after Red, but no definitive information to if he is really Red. Also his trophy description makes no mention of Red and just gives a basic definition of a Pokémon trainer.

He's clearly supposed to be red though, since he's not the actual one fighting. Giving him a generic name makes sense

 

[Zionaze]

rekd Galacta knight, the strongest warrior in the galaxy who was sealed for his power was too great.

always beats up

wins

 

[Munomario777]

Oh my GOD, you will go so far to twist something.

The act of a character picking up a Warp Star trophy is not something that happens as part of any story. It is picked up by the player, and serves as lore exposition for the player to read at their own leisure (as Smash is a celebration of Nintendo franchises, it naturally gives you accurate info on those franchises). The trophy being collected isn't canon. It's just a fourth wall breaking collectible that allows the player to look at a model of something up close.

The TROPHY DESCRIPTION is canon. It is describing what the Warp Star is like in the source material. As every other trophy description does. And in this particular instance, the trophy description is written by the guy who INVENTED the item in question. And it says it can travel at warp speed.

Like, I love how you ask for a source on something, get said source, and then make up a rule on the spot that "invalidates" that source. You must have some ego if you think your arbitrary rules are more important than the creator of both the Kirby and Smash franchise telling you that something featured in both of those franchises works a certain way. This is literally someone else's creation, a mythos THEY created, it is both implied and outright said by the series' creator that the Warp Star travels at warp speed, and yet you STILL reach for reasons that this isn't the case. Your posts on this matter thus far are just fancy ways of saying "you're wrong because I said you are".

This is why debating with you is impossible. Sonic absolutely has to be the best, and you will make up whatever rules you feel are necessary to make that the case in your head. But it's not fooling anyone.

And for the record, Kirby's Warp Star not actually travelling at warp speed in-game even during automated sequences is the result of hardware limitations anyway. It's actually near impossible to have something move at warp speed in a game, because the game needs time to load things. The most powerful console a main Kirby game has been on so far is a Wii, which is to say, not an extremely powerful one. I've messed around with making things move at warp speed in game engines, and it does not work out well. That's why Kirby's Warp Star simply moves at a speed of "really ****in' fast and crashes through everything" in the games, as it's the closest they can get to warp speed. And for the record, the speed at which the Warp Star travels in-game still looks to be a lot faster than what Sonic has been portrayed moving at.

And with that I'm done with this topic again, because it ALWAYS devolves into someone making up rules like this and it's surprisingly aggravating.

It happens as part of the gameplay, which you're classifying as canon. If the Trophy item isn't counted, then neither are any of the other items, since they all appear in the same fashion (except for having a more prominent role in Subspace).

Except it describes something that's never even stated in the source material. Also, again, the trophies, movesets, etc. are from the same game. Thus, they should be treated equally (unless your earlier description of the tophies as "non-canon collectibles" is true, in which case this whole argument is pretty much pointless). We've never heard that Sakurai wrote all the Kirby trophy descriptions, let alone in English (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Also, there are many things in this game that would give Sonic an edge, but similar to this, are clearly not canon, similar to the Warp Star's situation:
He can Spindash in midair in Smash, but he never does it in the Sonic series - non-canon.
He can summon springs from nowhere in Smash, but he never does it in the Sonic series - non-canon.
He can double jump that high in Smash, but he never does it in the Sonic series - non-canon.
Here are some things from other characters that are in Smash and main-series games as well:
Rosalina hovers in Galaxy and in Smash - canon.
Kirby can float in the main series games as well as in Smash - canon.
Mario can shoot fireballs without a fire flower in Mario RPG as well as in Smash - canon.
Villager can put things in his pocket in Animal Crossing as well as in Smash - canon.
Pikachu can use electricity in Pokemon as well as in Smash - canon.
The list goes on, but "because Smash said so" isn't a good base argument, especially when that source likely doesn't come from Sakurai (the Treehouse and others handled the translations). Also, in Smash, Kirby can use his copy abilities at any time, but not in the main games (without absorbing one of those capsules). This was definitely made by Sakurai (his character + his creative lead), but it's still not how it works in the Kirby games.

Except you're the one who said that Smash can be canon as long as it doesn't contradict the source. The Warp Star moving at warp speed contradicts the Kirby games, since it's never shown to do so in said games.

I'm not saying Sonic has to be the best (this honestly wouldn't affect his status anyway). I'm just saying that I don't agree with your reasoning on this sort of thing.

Yes, I'm aware it wouldn't be able to travel at warp speed (if it was actually canon to the Kirby games) on the current hardware. I was only pointing out that not all instances were for gameplay reasons, like you said they were. Also, please reference 1:23 or so in this video, which is one of Sonic's fastest in-game portrayals, for comparison. Not saying he's the best by default; just providing an apt comparison. For all I know, the Warp Star could be faster.

Okay, bye. It's a bit of a relief, to be honest.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

He's clearly supposed to be red though, since he's not the actual one fighting. Giving him a generic name makes sense

It's not Red.

The power of the sword originates from the Fire Emblem series. If it carries over, prove to me that Marth will be able to withstand 61,740 joules, or temperatures reaching 3,000 centigrade, or beams passing through solid barriers, or bombs capable of destroying sandstone? (The Mohs scale of hardness would place sandstone at a hardness of 6.5 to 7. Diamond is 10.)

The power of everything originates from its universe. Power-ups, moves, weapons, etcetera. Like I said, Samus would beat him because projectiles work, but direct attacks don't hurt him.

Ganondorf would resist all attacks? Can you prove that?

It's a pretty well-known fact that only holy attacks can defeat Ganondorf, but Samus doesn't use any.

Mewtwo could crush Samus' suit using telekinesis? Can you prove that, too? The move called "Psychic" has only been demonstrated as producing an aura around the target and throwing him/her. I've never seen it crush anyone. What's worth noting is how deep Samus can travel under water without being crushed by the pressure. For every 10 meters under water, pressure increases by 1 atmosphere, which is equal to 101,325 pascals.

Proof of Mewtwo's TK strength, also him crushing.

And?

Do you even know what a goddess is?

Again, such force would cause either one flying, even if they could withstand the force. It's also worth asking if this game was released prior to Donkey Kong Country Returns, at which point I'll ignore.

We saw DK knock down the moon, and Mac has around equal strength to him. Maybe DK wasn't using full force, but Mac is still stronger physically.

That doesn't prove anything to me about Kirby winning.

Unless Samus' suit has moon-level durability (and I'm guessing it doesn't), Kirby could blast it open using the Star Rod and kill Samus.

That doesn't tell me anything. If Meta Knight defeated Marx, who was a planetary threat, it wouldn't make Meta Knight a planetary threat. It would just mean Meta Knight had other means to get around this problem. I've played Kirby Super Star for the SNES and fought Marx. Nothing about him is remotely impressive. Dimensional Cape says nothing about Meta Knight manipulating space, as in he can alter space at his will. Maybe it hides him in another dimension, but you'll need to prove it's effective.

Meta Knight didn't defeat Marx, but he defeated the strongest in the galaxy, making him pretty tough.

Many times in this video does Meta Knight throw his cape away, and then summon it back once he's done with the battle. That proves he has control over at least teleportation, which can be useful.

Also, while I don't take these characters in their composite forms, Samus has the Dark Visor in Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, which allows her to see transdimensional enemies and objects. The sonic boom, a missile combo, "distorts time and space" according to director Mark Pacini of the Metroid Prime trilogy. You'll need to impress me with Meta Knight and Galaxia to persuade me.

I never said Meta Knight could defeat Samus.

 

[Crystanium]

The thing about trophy descriptions is that while there can be errors in them (see the Dark Suit trophy where it says Samus acquires this in Torvus Bog, when it's actually Agon Wastes, specifically the darker side), the description about Kirby being 8 inches is only found in the first Kirby trophy in Super Smash Bros. Melee. We can (or should) use descriptions about characters from their trophies, at least if they are consistent with the original source material, since I'd suspect the SSB series requires input from the creators. Sakurai is responsible for the Kirby games and the SSB series, so I would like to think that descriptions about Kirby are reliable.

 

[Munomario777]

The thing about trophy descriptions is that while there can be errors in them (see the Dark Suit trophy where it says Samus acquires this in Torvus Bog, when it's actually Agon Wastes, specifically the darker side), the description about Kirby being 8 inches is only found in the first Kirby trophy in Super Smash Bros. Melee. We can (or should) use descriptions about characters from their trophies, at least if they are consistent with the original source material, since I'd suspect the SSB series requires input from the creators. Sakurai is responsible for the Kirby games and the SSB series, so I would like to think that descriptions about Kirby are reliable.

Well, there's nothing saying Sakurai wrote the Kirby trophies (particularly in English), is there?

 

[Crystanium]

It's a pretty well-known fact that only holy attacks can defeat Ganondorf, but Samus doesn't use any.

In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Samus uses the light beam, which is effective at killing the Ing, Warrior Ing are the most common and the description about them are as follows:

"Morphology: Warrior Ing. The soldiers of the Ing Horde. Shapeshifting wallcrawler. Dangerous combatant in melee and at range. Dislikes bright light.

Warrior Ing are challenging foes. They can render themselves into amorphous puddles and move over most terrain, including walls. Warrior Ings can turn their bodies into dangerous projectiles sheathed in dark energy. The tips of their legs are razor sharp, making them formidable in melee. Finally, Warrior Ing are capable of channelling transdimensional energy and firing it at their enemies. Their only real weakness is bright, pure light, which they hate and fear."

So Samus does use one, at least. However, this "fact" is only true in the Zeldaverse, which is to say the people in that universe are only aware of one or few weakness against Ganondorf. They are also claims not made by any omniscient being, but by people who are aware of the most effective way of killing Ganondorf. It would be like me living during the times where there was a mass hysteria of vampires and I said the only way to kill a vampire was driving a stake through his heart. It wouldn't mean that's the only way vampires can die.

Tell me how Ganondorf would be able to withstand being frozen by the ice beam and then being shattered with a concussive blast. This is how Samus thinks. To support this claim, I'll quote from the official Metroid Prime Web site, which says:

"One of Samus' favorite tactics is to freeze an enemy and then shatter its body with a Missile [sic] attack."

Proof of Mewtwo's TK strength, also him crushing.

The first one is pretty cool, but what are Poké balls made of and how much pressure can they withstand? The structure appears rather thin, which would make the object weaker to forces and pressure. A can made of aluminum, for example, can be crushed just by stepping on it. If the can was in the same form as a can, but it was entirely solid, it wouldn't be so easy to crush by stepping on it. In the games and manga, it's destroyed if a wild Pokémon gets free from capture.

And while this is all great, these are the anime, not the games themselves, which take precedence as they are the primary source. Maybe if you could show me from one of the games, that'd be nice. But let's say we accepted what's going on in the anime, Samus has withstood gravity, which I have calculated to be 7.88 times greater than Earth's. Her jumping is reduced, but she's still able to wall-jump and run just fine under these conditions. The gravity feature nullifies these effects.

Under 7.88 g, Samus would weigh 1,560.24 lb., which is a little over half a ton (0.78 tons) This would mean her organs would experiencing this as well, but let's forget about that. With the speed booster allowing Samus to travel "supersonic speeds", the moment she shinesparks, she would experience an acceleration of 70 g. Just think about a human being in those conditions. Not only that, Samus has to come to a complete stop, and yet she walks (or runs) as if it were nothing.

Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stapp#Works_on_effects_of_deceleration

Now tell me how Mewtwo would defeat Samus.

Do you even know what a goddess is?

A feminine title for "god". Being a god or goddess doesn't mean anything. Only feats matter, otherwise, I should care what has to be said about Palutena.

We saw DK knock down the moon, and Mac has around equal strength to him. Maybe DK wasn't using full force, but Mac is still stronger physically.

Yes, a moon magnitudes smaller than our own. Punch Out!! was released in 2009 for the Wii, where as Donkey Kong Country Returns was released in 2010. You're trying to work backwards here, which isn't how this works.

Unless Samus' suit has moon-level durability (and I'm guessing it doesn't), Kirby could blast it open using the Star Rod and kill Samus.

Prove that the Star Rod can destroy moons.

Meta Knight didn't defeat Marx, but he defeated the strongest in the galaxy, making him pretty tough.

The toughest in his galaxy.

Well, there's nothing saying Sakurai wrote the Kirby trophies (particularly in English), is there?

Of course not, but being creator of the series, I'd expect he has more say in the matter. With that mentality, we should ignore anything written by anyone other than one who wrote it, especially the translator. That would be a lot of information thrown out. Would you then suppose Kirby is larger than 8 inches?

 

[Munomario777]

Of course not, but being creator of the series, I'd expect he has more say in the matter. With that mentality, we should ignore anything written by anyone other than one who wrote it, especially the translator. That would be a lot of information thrown out. Would you then suppose Kirby is larger than 8 inches?

While that sounds possible, there's no official statement on the matter. Also, I think if the English and Japanese versions contradict each other (and Japanese is the original), Japanese takes priority, since that's the original. On the subject of Kirby's height, there's no real indication in the games that he is that small, AFAIK (in fact, most penguins are quite a bit taller than that, yet Dedede is around Kirby's size).

Of course, these technicalities could be avoided if we ignored Smash altogether, which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

 

[Crystanium]

While that sounds possible, there's no official statement on the matter. Also, I think if the English and Japanese versions contradict each other (and Japanese is the original), Japanese takes priority, since that's the original. On the subject of Kirby's height, there's no real indication in the games that he is that small, AFAIK (in fact, most penguins are quite a bit taller than that, yet Dedede is around Kirby's size).

Of course, these technicalities could be avoided if we ignored Smash altogether, which sounds pretty reasonable to me.

I decided to look up Kirby's height and 8 inches is his official height based on Nintendo Japan (Nintendo Online Magazine - Kirby's profile - March 2000 issue covering Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards release).

And I agree that Japanese translation would take precedence. I don't know how to read Japanese, so I have to work with English.

 

[Munomario777]

I decided to look up Kirby's height and 8 inches is his official height based on Nintendo Japan (Nintendo Online Magazine - Kirby's profile - March 2000 issue covering Kirby 64: The Crystal Shards release).

And I agree that Japanese translation would take precedence. I don't know how to read Japanese, so I have to work with English.

Ah, interesting. Yeah, that changes things, then.

Well, Google Translate will have to work for now.

I do think that we should exclude Smash from being canon though, since it's such a gray area (as demonstrated by this very mini-debate). It would make things quite a bit simpler, and wouldn't really hinder the abilities of many characters, from what I can tell.

 

[Crystanium]

Ah, interesting. Yeah, that changes things, then.

Well, Google Translate will have to work for now.

I do think that we should exclude Smash from being canon though, since it's such a gray area (as demonstrated by this very mini-debate). It would make things quite a bit simpler, and wouldn't really hinder the abilities of many characters, from what I can tell.

I don't agree that SSB is canon, but the trophies give information about each character. I would still work with what canonical sources say, though, so I'm fine with sticking to that.

And is it just me, or did Smash World Forums change their format?

 

[Munomario777]

I don't agree that SSB is canon, but the trophies give information about each character. I would still work with what canonical sources say, though, so I'm fine with sticking to that.

And is it just me, or did Smash World Forums change their format?

I think Smash could be used, but only to support things that were already stated in canon, such as Mario using fireballs without a fire flower (since he did it in Mario RPG), and not as the entire basis for an argument. Although it would probably be best to ignore it altogether, to avoid unnecessary complications.

They did a format change a while back. Here's the news thread for it.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Warp Star.

Outside of the Smash trophies, no canon source says it goes light speed or warp speed that I'm aware of. However it's capable of space travel. Only example I can think of is Kirby Super Star Ultra where he uses it travel between the planets. And obviously if he's going between planets it must be fast since we know it doesn't take Kirby months or even years to finish the game.
However, except for Kirby's air ride, it always take the warp star a few seconds before it can go fast, let alone top speed. And there's typically a noticeable slow down when it's about to do a big speed increase. I also have never seen Kirby land it while it was moving fast.

In Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, Samus uses the light beam, which is effective at killing the Ing, Warrior Ing are the most common and the description about them are as follows:

The thing is the light beam fires beams of pure light (whatever that means). It's not a holy weapon or even a magical weapon (i.e. light magic from Fire Emblem). If you go off the premise that only holy/blessed weapons can harm Ganondorf, which I know you don't agree with, I don't think the light beam qualifies.
Yeesh, I assumed no one would post on Christmas. WRONG. Anyways

Psychic is useful for Mewtwo, sure, but if the move is simply the target being thrown into things by telekinesis, then it's not going to do much for Mewtwo. Samus has dealt with ice and plasma attacks and has ice and plasma weapons herself. I honestly don't see Mewtwo as a threat against Samus.

Disagree. As I said, Between reflect and light screen, he can put up barriers that will slash the power of her projectiles in half. That's a big edge for Mewtwo. And i was just listing some of his attacks. He has many more moves (including Earthquake and the ability to paralyze with Thunderwave). He's as strong as anything Samus has ever fought but world's smarter.

Ganondorf

I get your philosophy but that open's up too many doors so i think that we should just stick with lore. That being said, I'll repeat myself and say that there are many Zelda games where Ganondorf could be harmed but not killed by non-holy items. And I don't believe this was ever stated to be a death match.

And I wrote why I don't think the light beam works further down in response to Kirby Dragons.

The wave beam

Totally forgot about that property. So you're right.

I suppose it depends on which Pokemon are being used. Then we can take into consideration their feats and work from there. [./quote]


Whatever 6 Pokemon work best against the opponent. In this scenario I'd like to imagine he has a portable PC that lets him summon any Pokemon he wants and that he has access to all 719 of them.


Also Dryn, I disagree Link stands no chance against Samus. He has rupee-powered Magic armor that make him invulnerable for every 2 rupees he has. He can have a max of 9999. Unless my math is off, that means 83 damage free minutes. (However any attack takes off another 12 rupees.) With that equipped he puts on his Pegasus boots to track down Samus faster than she can react (long as she's not using speed booster). I don't know that he'd win but he stands a good chance.

This was previously discussed. Since this is no specific trainer, and there's only one of each legendary, it is likely he doesn't have/can't get any.
Okay about Marth, but Kirby also has a squishy, durable body, and with the Star Rod, he could hurt Samus. If Rosalina is universal like some say she is, she can beat Samus. But if not, Samus would end up victorious.
Toon Link is
The Wind Waker, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Young Link is all of these, as well as Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and Link Between Worlds.
This makes Meta Knight about planetary, as he is stronger than Marx and others. The Dimensional Cape grants space manipulation, which is an OP power. He can also block attacks, and with Galaxia, he can create powerful sword beams and fire tornadoes.
Alrighty then.
Okay.

I always took PT as the representative of all the main characters and thus deserving access to all 719 pokemon.

The Star Rod and Master ability give him good ranged attacks but he can't absorb projectiles with either skill active, which you argued was a big edge for Kirby.

I know he can teleport but what do you mean by space manipulation? And blocking and sword beam are nice, but Mario/Roy/Lucinia are also capable of blocking and firing projectiles. Not even including Mario's many power-ups and items.

Personally, I think this Link deserves access to equipment of all Links. At least all the non-cell shaded incarnations. And Young Link deserves access to all equipment from all games but Skyward sword and Twilight Princess and adult Link's items in OoT that he didn't have access to in other games.

Funny you say Young Link gets access to his equipment when Toon Link is actually 16, just a year younger than Adult Link

 

[Munomario777]

Outside of the Smash trophies, no canon source says it goes light speed or warp speed that I'm aware of. However it's capable of space travel. Only example I can think of is Kirby Super Star Ultra where he uses it travel between the planets. And obviously if he's going between planets it must be fast since we know it doesn't take Kirby months or even years to finish the game.
However, except for Kirby's air ride, it always take the warp star a few seconds before it can go fast, let alone top speed. And there's typically a noticeable slow down when it's about to do a big speed increase. I also have never seen Kirby land it while it was moving fast.

Yeah, the lack of a canonical source for its supposed warp speed/light speed travel is the point I was making. Also, the distance between the planets should be taken into consideration, since the reason space travel takes so long in real life is the huge distances between the earth and other planets.
Good point; it does seem to have to charge up a bit before taking off at full speed. Also, I think he kind of crashes at high speed into stages in some of the games, IIRC.

Personally, I think this Link deserves access to equipment of all Links. At least all the non-cell shaded incarnations. And Young Link deserves access to all equipment from all games but Skyward sword and Twilight Princess and adult Link's items in OoT that he didn't have access to in other games.

Funny you say Young Link gets access to his equipment when Toon Link is actually 16, just a year younger than Adult Link

Well, Link in Brawl/Wii U/3DS is from Twilight Princess (same items, look, etc.), so he only gets Twilight Princess items, since canonically, each Link is different (some games, such as OoT and Majora, share Links). Likewise, Toon Link is from The Wind Waker, as shown by him having the Wind Waker in his taunt, and only gets Wind Waker items.