Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Maybe I should had said that they don't need uber-enhancements to defeat much smarter and stronger villains. might be a close contender for Uber because @Dryn has stated just that.



There is the electric bowling ball of BOOM! that shocks anyone who gets close would be able to destroy the emeralds in one shot. Because Squarepants logic... (It's normal video game logic.)

Well, Link is a lot more powerful with the Master Sword than without. Same for Samus, Olimar, Fire Emblem, etc. If a character has access to extremely powerful tools on a regular basis, they should be allowed to use them here.

Source please?

 

[Etc_Guy]

Source please?

Spongebob Squarepants: The Movie Game. Along with a guitar, karate gloves (metal and normal), a boxing glove both normal and explosive metal variants.

BFBB are the originals and act the same but made of bubbles instead.

 

[Munomario777]

Spongebob Squarepants: The Movie Game. Along with a guitar, karate gloves (metal and normal), a boxing glove both normal and explosive metal variants.

BFBB are the originals and act the same but made of bubbles instead.

I didn't find anything about a super-powerful electric bowling ball or whatever that thing is in that game. Anyway, he's completely irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Reiga]

Battle between and :
Battle starts, Mewtwo uses Disable, Sonic now can't use his time-freeze.
Sonic now uses his super-speed, however Mewtwo uses Aura Sphere, which never misses.
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Steelix is harder than diamond, and with just 2 Aura Spheres Mewtwo has force greater than diamond.
After that, Sonic is slowed down or stopped on his tracks, and Mewtwo can use Telekinesis and pick Sonic, after that he can use Focus Blast,
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 334-394 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Most of the time, a single Focus Blast can have power greater than the substance Steelix is made out of.
That's the power capable of easily shattering diamonds used twice.
gg Sonic.

 

[Crystanium]

Battle between and :
Battle starts, Mewtwo uses Disable, Sonic now can't use his time-freeze.
Sonic now uses his super-speed, however Mewtwo uses Aura Sphere, which never misses.
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Steelix is harder than diamond, and with just 2 Aura Spheres Mewtwo has force greater than diamond.
After that, Sonic is slowed down or stopped on his tracks, and Mewtwo can use Telekinesis and pick Sonic, after that he can use Focus Blast,
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 334-394 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Most of the time, a single Focus Blast can have power greater than the substance Steelix is made out of.
That's the power capable of easily shattering diamonds used twice.
gg Sonic.

The descriptions of Disable vary. It's been a long time since I've played Pokémon, but unless Disable varies in each game, the description clarifies what it means by the ability that is disable, which is the one that was used last. However, Bulbapedia explains the game mechanics, but this wouldn't take place in a game, so that'll be ignored. If a battle begins, then it shouldn't have any effect. Besides, why would that be Mewtwo's first move? Do you know Mewtwo very well? Or are you just telling us that's what you would do first?

Furthermore, how does Disable work? Does it fire like a beam? Does it cover an area, and if so, what is the radius? Why would Sonic even require stopping time when he's faster than Mewtwo anyway? I bet Blastoise could harm Steelix in the game, even though the water pressure from its cannons can punch holes through steel. That must mean it's a force stronger than diamond, right? By the way, diamond may be hard, but that doesn't mean it's tough. Glass is harder than steel, but we all know it'll shatter with a strong force.

As for Aura Sphere, it won't work on Pokémon who use Fly, Dig, or Dive, so it can miss. Saying it never misses is a no-limits fallacy. Super Sonic can fly. So here's how the match would actually play out. Sonic would travel 1,715 m/s, or five times the speed of sound. He would cover 100 meters in 58 milliseconds, which is faster than the blink of an eye (approx. 300 - 400 milliseconds). To put Sonic's speed into perspective, he'd cover close to 16 football fields in 1 second (15.63 football fields).

Considering Sonic would be traveling faster than sound, Mewtwo would only hear the sonic boom after he was hit by 13,494 pounds of force, or 6.75 tons. I probably would take the numbers in Pokémon into consideration if it was consistent with the Pokédex, but it's not and when it comes to RPGs, numbers are passed off because if you take two different RPG games, 1,000 HP in one RPG could be equal to 1 HP in another. They're game mechanics.

And this is ignoring Sonic's light speed dash.

 

[Munomario777]

Battle between and :
Battle starts, Mewtwo uses Disable, Sonic now can't use his time-freeze.
Sonic now uses his super-speed, however Mewtwo uses Aura Sphere, which never misses.
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 224-264 (63.2 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Steelix is harder than diamond, and with just 2 Aura Spheres Mewtwo has force greater than diamond.
After that, Sonic is slowed down or stopped on his tracks, and Mewtwo can use Telekinesis and pick Sonic, after that he can use Focus Blast,
252 SpA Mega Mewtwo Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Steelix: 334-394 (94.3 - 111.2%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Most of the time, a single Focus Blast can have power greater than the substance Steelix is made out of.
That's the power capable of easily shattering diamonds used twice.
gg Sonic.

Battle starts, Sonic uses his time freeze. Sonic proceeds to whale on Mewtwo. Mewtwo faints.
Gg Mewtwo. Also, I'm not a Pokemon expert; could you please translate that to English?

(Also, what Dyrn said.)

 

[ShadowLBlue]

In the first movie, (considered not only cannon in Smash, but prevalent in character selection) he takes complete control of Nurse Joy and uses her as a puppet. Just one example.

What keeps Mewtwo (or anyone) from simply stealing the Chaos Emeralds from Sonic in the first place?

Movie isn't canon, nor is the anime.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I'm still in the boat that Mewtwo can control Sonic mentally. Even if Sonic can time freeze, a power that we dont seem to be quantifying in ability, startup, or any other form of weakness at all, it wouldnt matter to someone who can control you using it. Sonic does not just freeze time at the start of every battle, and in fact, I dont know a single battle he does indeed start off by freezing time.

Ultimately Mewtwo is a better analyst, and that means he can predict what Sonic will do. He backs this up wtih intense emotional fury and extreme (psycho)psychical capabilities.

Movie isn't canon, nor is the anime.

In smash bros, it is.
In fact, that is the man reason we get the Pokemon choices we do. Or any Pokemon content we do get.

Sakurai not only went on record to state that one of the biggest considerations for choosing Pokemon characters is the movie line, but has proven time and time again that it influences Smash more than the games.
Goldeen pokeball instead of Magikarp, Beedrills function, Pikachu's Down B being based off the anime, Mewtwo's flippin anime voice and 'villain' classification, Lucario being added as a character.

The Pokemon company also has full rights to the anime, notice how the website heavily features it? That is because it is canon.

 

[Pallex]

In smash bros, it is.
In fact, that is the man reason we get the Pokemon choices we do. Or any Pokemon content we do get.

Sakurai not only went on record to state that one of the biggest considerations for choosing Pokemon characters is the movie line, but has proven time and time again that it influences Smash more than the games.
Goldeen pokeball instead of Magikarp, Beedrills function, Pikachu's Down B being based off the anime, Mewtwo's flippin anime voice and 'villain' classification, Lucario being added as a character.

The Pokemon company also has full rights to the anime, notice how the website heavily features it? That is because it is canon.

Unless your Greninja who was chosen based on concept art before Pokémon X and Y were even released. As of the release date of Greninja's debut trailer, Greninja hadn't even made a proper appearance in the anime yet.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm still in the boat that Mewtwo can control Sonic mentally. Even if Sonic can time freeze, a power that we dont seem to be quantifying in ability, startup, or any other form of weakness at all, it wouldnt matter to someone who can control you using it. Sonic does not just freeze time at the start of every battle, and in fact, I dont know a single battle he does indeed start off by freezing time.

Ultimately Mewtwo is a better analyst, and that means he can predict what Sonic will do. He backs this up wtih intense emotional fury and extreme (psycho)psychical capabilities.

The ability is that it freezes time while leaving the user unaffected, among other things.The startup time is the time it takes for Sonic to say "Chaos Control!", but it's never explicitly stated, and Sonic seems to do it in Sonic Adventure 2 without saying the line. Again, he doesn't freeze time to start because he prefers to rely on his speed. It's his preference; a part of his personality. However, if we're talking about who's most powerful (which we are at the moment), that doesn't matter, because the fact still stands that he's able to. Also, a fight would be pretty boring gameplay-wise if time was frozen.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Also, a fight would be pretty boring gameplay-wise if time was frozen.

Of course it would! We're talking about video game characters here not any other media.

You know Sonic has a weakness that can be so easily exploited, I'm surprised that it hasn't been done. From almost every game I can tell that is a nobody without Eggman. and crew lived without in SMB2 no problem, so how would Sonic react if Robotnik's army of machines is nowhere to be found in one game?

Since most of the final bosses nowadays are god monsters, not one zealot organization has rose up and attempted to rule the world with the only saviors refusing to kill humans of any kind. So if this did happen, stealing the Chaos Emeralds will be easier than Super Mario Galaxy 2. The only types of hero who would resist are:

Happy-go-lucky: People who are carefree about destroying any bad guy in their path.Ex. ,Spongebob and Patrick, Maybe I'm not certain yet.

Complex Morality: Protagonist who aren't black and white would understand who to attack and who to not. While there might be some that protect all of the human race (like and ), the other will kill the ones who cause evil and maybe even negotiate with them if possible. Ex.

No jewels can save him from a human henchmen so what does @ Munomario777 have to say about this?

 

[Munomario777]

Of course it would! We're talking about video game characters here not any other media.

You know Sonic has a weakness that can be so easily exploited, I'm surprised that it hasn't been done. From almost every game I can tell that is a nobody without Eggman. and crew lived without in SMB2 no problem, so how would Sonic react if Robotnik's army of machines is nowhere to be found in one game?

Since most of the final bosses nowadays are god monsters, not one zealot organization has rose up and attempted to rule the world with the only saviors refusing to kill humans of any kind. So if this did happen, stealing the Chaos Emeralds will be easier than Super Mario Galaxy 2. The only types of hero who would resist are:

Happy-go-lucky: People who are carefree about destroying any bad guy in their path.Ex. ,Spongebob and Patrick, Maybe I'm not certain yet.

Complex Morality: Protagonist who aren't black and white would understand who to attack and who to not. While there might be some that protect all of the human race (like and ), the other will kill the ones who cause evil and maybe even negotiate with them if possible. Ex.

No jewels can save him from a human henchmen so what does @ Munomario777 have to say about this?

In Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic and the Black Knight, the majority of Sonic Lost World (they were working together, not as enemies), and the end of Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes (they were working together, not as enemies), Sonic was just fine fighting something that wasn't Eggman. The rest of your argument makes no sense, and may I remind you that this is a discussion about power, not morality?

 

[Pallex]

In Sonic and the Black Knight (Eggman and Sonic were working together, not as enemies),Sonic was just fine fighting something that wasn't Eggman.

Excuse me? I have seen a full walk through of Sonic and the Black Knight and Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik was nowhere to be found. Have you actually seen/played the game? Show me where Dr. Robotnik appears and describe his role in the game and I will take it all back.

 

[Flawed]

After watching that death battle, Kirby has to be the most OP character ever. Invincible baloon

 

[Eisal]

As said before, Ganondorf could probably be the most dangerous one, because various of reasons, but Link always seems to be able to defeat him, so there's that.

Otherwise Palutena being a goddess could be something... but I don't know too much about her except she being kidnapped at some point.

Kirby is also an indestructible ball of fluff, so, maybe him?

 

[Munomario777]

Excuse me? I have seen a full walk through of Sonic and the Black Knight and Dr. Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik was nowhere to be found. Have you actually seen/played the game? Show me where Dr. Robotnik appears and describe his role in the game and I will take it all back.

The "working together" parts were for the games they were after, or the Lost World, Adventure 2, and Heroes examples. My apologies if that was unclear.

 

[Crystanium]

I'm still in the boat that Mewtwo can control Sonic mentally.

Does Mewtwo learn any telepathic abilities? And since when has Mewtwo ever mind controlled anyone?

Even if Sonic can time freeze, a power that we dont seem to be quantifying in ability, startup, or any other form of weakness at all, it wouldnt matter to someone who can control you using it. Sonic does not just freeze time at the start of every battle, and in fact, I dont know a single battle he does indeed start off by freezing time.

He starts off with his speed. As I put it in my last post, he could cover 100 meters in 58 milliseconds and traveling Mach 5, Mewtwo would get hit by 6+ tons of force before he heard the sonic boom. Unless Mewtwo can withstand 6+ tons of force and has reaction time that can react to hypersonic speed, he's not lasting very long.

Ultimately Mewtwo is a better analyst, and that means he can predict what Sonic will do.

Prediction doesn't mean one can react in time.

In smash bros, it is.

The SSB series isn't canon. We're taking the characters in the SSB series and seeing how the tier list would turn out if they were all true to their canonical selves. In other words, original source material.

Sakurai not only went on record to state that one of the biggest considerations for choosing Pokemon characters is the movie line, but has proven time and time again that it influences Smash more than the games.

Again, we're using original source material.

Goldeen pokeball instead of Magikarp, Beedrills function, Pikachu's Down B being based off the anime, Mewtwo's flippin anime voice and 'villain' classification, Lucario being added as a character.

The Pokemon company also has full rights to the anime, notice how the website heavily features it? That is because it is canon.

It's secondary. If the anime is canon, then anything that contradicts the games are to be dismissed, as original source material takes priority.

The ability is that it freezes time while leaving the user unaffected, among other things.The startup time is the time it takes for Sonic to say "Chaos Control!", but it's never explicitly stated, and Sonic seems to do it in Sonic Adventure 2 without saying the line. Again, he doesn't freeze time to start because he prefers to rely on his speed. It's his preference; a part of his personality. However, if we're talking about who's most powerful (which we are at the moment), that doesn't matter, because the fact still stands that he's able to. Also, a fight would be pretty boring gameplay-wise if time was frozen.

It is necessary to take into each character's personality. So if Sonic doesn't start off by saying, "Chaos control!", then we cannot say that this is how it would begin. Anything else would be us imposing our methods onto the character's personality. I've used this against Rosalina and I have used it against Mewtwo. Sonic's main method is using his speed. He could use Chaos Control at any time afterwards.

 

[Munomario777]

It is necessary to take into each character's personality. So if Sonic doesn't start off by saying, "Chaos control!", then we cannot say that this is how it would begin. Anything else would be us imposing our methods onto the character's personality. I've use this against Rosalina and I have used it against Mewtwo.

We're not discussing personality. We're discussing raw power. That's what the original post says. And even if we are taking it into account, Sonic still has Chaos Powers, and will use them if they are necessary, which they might be against certain characters. This is shown when he uses Chaos Control to escape certain death in Sonic Adventure 2 (as a side note, he has been shown to be able to use his speed and spinball form to bust through an entire space fleet, but he uses Chaos Control to escape a small capsule that he should be able to Spin Dash through, so perhaps he's not as reluctant as is let on). Also, I think we should give a clear objective to fights. I'm thinking something along the lines of "destroy the opponent using any means necessary."

 

[Xzsmmc]

I'd go with Ganondorf. He's basically a god in terms of power, and you can count the weapons that can actually hurt him on one hand. His incarnation that didn't even acquire the Triforce of Power was impaled by a sword, and he took it pretty well.

Now if only he was that good in SSB...

 

[Munomario777]

I'd go with Ganondorf. He's basically a god in terms of power, and you can count the weapons that can actually hurt him on one hand. His incarnation that didn't even acquire the Triforce of Power was impaled by a sword, and he took it pretty well.

Now if only he was that good in SSB...

Well, the Triforce of Power was actually the thing that let him survive the sword in his chest, unless you mean something else. Also, the Light Arrows and Master Sword (among with a few game-specific weapons) are his weaknesses, correct? Well, the Links and Zelda could defeat him in that case, seeing as they wield those same weapons. Also, it's a bit of a stretch, but one of the Chaos Powers Sonic has access to in his Super Sonic form is called the "Arrow of Light," where Super Sonic gathers light energy and then performs a modified Super Sonic Boost towards the enemy, packed with light energy. (Yes, it's from Sonic 2006, but as stated before, "semi-canon" games like that (where it is essentially a branch of the main timeline) can be used as a canonical source for abilities and the like, as long as it is believable within the actual canon, and this is, since it's essentially the Super Sonic Boost with light added to it.)

 

[Eisal]

Does Mewtwo learn any telepathic abilities? And since when has Mewtwo ever mind controlled anyone?

Didn't Mewtwo mindcontrol Nurse Joy in Mewtwo Strikes Back movie? Making her his servant.

 

[Brother AJ]

Not sure if this changes anyone's opinion, but **** I had no idea Kirby was this powerful:

 

[Munomario777]

Not sure if this changes anyone opinion, but **** I had no idea Kirby was this powerful:

Well, Death Battle is honestly the Dragon Ball Z of crossover fights (how fitting, with his opponent in this one), and it does stretch abilities quite a bit. For instance, I couldn't find any source on the Warp Star travelling at the speed of light, and I don't think Kirby would be able to inhale that kind of projectile, or something as large as the enemy he inhaled at the beginning to get the Hammer power, or the projectiles that were shot at him. Of course, this would change with his Hypernova ability, but it can't be used in midair, and many characters can fly. Plus, I don't recall seeing that sort of hammer acrobatics in any Kirby games. (I could be wrong though; taking the information from the Internet, since I haven't played many Kirby games myself) That said, I do agree that Kirby is a rather powerful contender, but perhaps not as powerful as Death Battle would lead one to believe.

 

[Crystanium]

We're not discussing personality. We're discussing raw power. That's what the original post says. And even if we are taking it into account, Sonic still has Chaos Powers, and will use them if they are necessary, which they might be against certain characters. This is shown when he uses Chaos Control to escape certain death in Sonic Adventure 2 (as a side note, he has been shown to be able to use his speed and spinball form to bust through an entire space fleet, but he uses Chaos Control to escape a small capsule that he should be able to Spin Dash through, so perhaps he's not as reluctant as is let on). Also, I think we should give a clear objective to fights. I'm thinking something along the lines of "destroy the opponent using any means necessary."

If you want to get technical, the thread is actually about who is the strongest, probably as in physical strength. Every aspect of a character is taken into consideration, not just abilities. Sonic's first choice would be his speed because that's what he's all about. He could use Chaos Control, probably even at the beginning, but the likelihood of that being his first option is likely not above bull rushing into his opponents.

Didn't Mewtwo mindcontrol Nurse Joy in Mewtwo Strikes Back movie? Making her his servant.

In the movie, but original source material starts from the games. Anything else is secondary. So unless you can find out which ability that is, it'll be dismissed. Besides, in the movie, Mewtwo mind controlled Nurse Joy to be a servant. She was no threat to him and he didn't bother controlling others.

 

[Munomario777]

If you want to get technical, the thread is actually about who is the strongest, probably as in physical strength. Every aspect of a character is taken into consideration, not just abilities. Sonic's first choice would be his speed because that's what he's all about. He could use Chaos Control, probably even at the beginning, but the likelihood of that being his first option is likely not above bull rushing into his opponents.

Well, the OP says Mewtwo and Pit are his candidates, neither of which have particularly burly muscles. Instead, they would be good candidates for most powerful. If it was asking which character would win in a fight, that's different, but this thread is discussing power. Also, again, Sonic sometimes uses Chaos Control when it's not 100% necessary (see the Sonic Adventure 2 example in an above post).

 

[Crystanium]

Well, the OP says Mewtwo and Pit are his candidates, neither of which have particularly burly muscles. Instead, they would be good candidates for most powerful. If it was asking which character would win in a fight, that's different, but this thread is discussing power. Also, again, Sonic sometimes uses Chaos Control when it's not 100% necessary (see the Sonic Adventure 2 example in an above post).

That's fine. All I'm saying is when most people think of Sonic, they think of speed.

 

[Munomario777]

That's fine. All I'm saying is when most people think of Sonic, they think of speed.

I agree, but that's not really something that would weigh into this discussion. As a side note, however, to a spectator, Chaos Control would basically look like the things Sonic did while time was frozen happening in the blink of an eye, and that is pretty darn fast.

 

[pupNapoleon]

If you want to get technical, the thread is actually about who is the strongest, probably as in physical strength. Every aspect of a character is taken into consideration, not just abilities. Sonic's first choice would be his speed because that's what he's all about. He could use Chaos Control, probably even at the beginning, but the likelihood of that being his first option is likely not above bull rushing into his opponents.



In the movie, but original source material starts from the games. Anything else is secondary. So unless you can find out which ability that is, it'll be dismissed. Besides, in the movie, Mewtwo mind controlled Nurse Joy to be a servant. She was no threat to him and he didn't bother controlling others.

But the movies and the games, in Pokemons case, are both cannon, as shown by the official Pokemon company. It is not as if we are using Sonic's anime to credit him, or even the Pokemon manga. The Pokemon anime is an accurate and reputable source, moreso than the actual Pokedex entries which can be taken as myth.

There is no discrediting the anime when it comes to the Pokemon. @Dryn, you quoted my post above and kept claiming "original source material," but to this I must refer you to the thread name, CANON. Original source would be the first game they were each in, and I assure you there, Sonic cannot do very much, including swim. Canon source would be anything agreed by the company accurately is a part of the characters lore and proper representation. Original would be the first incarnation, which is continually retconned.

 

[Crystanium]

I agree, but that's not really something that would weigh into this discussion. As a side note, however, to a spectator, Chaos Control would basically look like the things Sonic did while time was frozen happening in the blink of an eye, and that is pretty darn fast.

Says who? I'm weighing in everything. If anyone takes issue, then ignore the characters themselves.

But the movies and the games, in Pokemons case, are both cannon, as shown by the official Pokemon company. It is not as if we are using Sonic's anime to credit him, or even the Pokemon manga. The Pokemon anime is an accurate and reputable source, moreso than the actual Pokedex entries which can be taken as myth.

There is no discrediting the anime when it comes to the Pokemon. @Dryn, you quoted my post above and kept claiming "original source material," but to this I must refer you to the thread name, CANON. Original source would be the first game they were each in, and I assure you there, Sonic cannot do very much, including swim. Canon source would be anything agreed by the company accurately is a part of the characters lore and proper representation. Original would be the first incarnation, which is continually retconned.

Who are you to say the Pokémon anime is more reputable than the Pokédex? (Funnily, the anime also has the Pokédex, so I wouldn't expect the description wouldn't be far off, considering the anime came after the games.) If the anime is considered, it's only a secondary source. By "original source material", I am referring to the media at which Pokémon made its first debut. Considering the video games were released first, it would be the video games we work with.

If the secondary source contradicts the first, the first takes priority. Games can contradict games, only because it's a possibility that it's been retconned. For example, Metroid for the NES has been retconned for the most part and now Metroid: Zero Mission takes precedence, as it is a remake of the original. Even if we use the anime, your point about Nurse Joy is irrelevant, as Mewtwo didn't bother mind controlling anyone else.

 

[Munomario777]

Says who? I'm weighing in everything. If anyone takes issue, then ignore the characters themselves.

Says the fact that the thread is discussing power, rather than personality and preference.

 

[Crystanium]

Says the fact that the thread is discussing power, rather than personality and preference.

Then let's ignore speed and durability.

 

[Munomario777]

Then let's ignore speed and durability.

"Power: the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality."

 

[Crystanium]

"Power: the ability to do something or act in a particular way, especially as a faculty or quality."

The OP uses the word "strongest", so in that case, "Having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks".

 

[M-Z]

Jigglypuff, all she has to do is use sing

 

[Etc_Guy]

In Sonic and the Secret Rings, Sonic and the Black Knight, the majority of Sonic Lost World (they were working together, not as enemies), and the end of Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Heroes (they were working together, not as enemies), Sonic was just fine fighting something that wasn't Eggman. The rest of your argument makes no sense, and may I remind you that this is a discussion about power, not morality?

I was trying to say that wouldn't be fine mowing down an army of primarily human bad guys unlike robots and someone else will need to take his place instead. I don't see him putting up a fight against the most insane of sociopaths out for blood like a real villain with real minions.

The OP uses the word "strongest", so in that case, "Having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks".

We all now who the STRONGEST is.

Jigglypuff, all she has to do is use sing

Ikr. Polite people like would have no chose but to fall asleep to her songs of drowsiness.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Well, the Triforce of Power was actually the thing that let him survive the sword in his chest, unless you mean something else. Also, the Light Arrows and Master Sword (among with a few game-specific weapons) are his weaknesses, correct? Well, the Links and Zelda could defeat him in that case, seeing as they wield those same weapons. Also, it's a bit of a stretch, but one of the Chaos Powers Sonic has access to in his Super Sonic form is called the "Arrow of Light," where Super Sonic gathers light energy and then performs a modified Super Sonic Boost towards the enemy, packed with light energy. (Yes, it's from Sonic 2006, but as stated before, "semi-canon" games like that (where it is essentially a branch of the main timeline) can be used as a canonical source for abilities and the like, as long as it is believable within the actual canon, and this is, since it's essentially the Super Sonic Boost with light added to it.)

I was more referring to how Ganondorf in Twilight Princess never physically possessed the Power piece of the Triforce like he did in Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past. I was always under the impression that actually having it made him more powerful than just having it's power naturally.

As for Link and Zelda, it's true that they could conceivably defeat him, but I'm more saying that in terms of overall strength with the fewest weaknesses, Ganondorf wins out.

For the Sonic thing, I don't really know. Light energy isn't necessarily the holy light that the Light Arrows use.

 

[pupNapoleon]

If the anime is considered, it's only a secondary source. By "original source material", I am referring to the media at which Pokémon made its first debut. Considering the video games were released first, it would be the video games we work with.

If the secondary source contradicts the first, the first takes priority. Games can contradict games, only because it's a possibility that it's been retconned. For example, Metroid for the NES has been retconned for the most part and now Metroid: Zero Mission takes precedence, as it is a remake of the original. Even if we use the anime, your point about Nurse Joy is irrelevant, as Mewtwo didn't bother mind controlling anyone else.

Firstly, original source material does not mean all video games. You are personally deciding this fact as a baseless claim- the original source is the single source it originally came from, which is in this case a single pair of games. If not stop there, then what makes the RPG line different than the other Pokemon spinoffs? Mystery Dungeon, Trozei, Rumble, Ranger? What makes those video games different than other video games, even Smash Bros? The idea, of course, that by the creators rights, it was stated as being canon, part of the characters origin. It is only by discussing canon, as the thread is named after, that we can get to the merit of the actual conversation at hand. Canon supercedes this (false definition and) notion you have of Original Source, and must, because of factors such as retconned changes, regional disputes of games, and beyond.

Secondly, please explain to me how it is irrelevant that Mewtwo did not mind control anyone else other than Nurse Joy. That does not remove that fact that he did so to her.

Additionally, per conversation at hand, he can wipe memory, which means keep another fighter from accessing full range of abilities.

 

[PsychoIncarnate]

In another discussion, people were honestly saying Mewtwo would have a problem fighting Freeza

Yet Kirby beat down Majin Boo.

So, Kirby quite a bit more powerful than my person choice for strongest

 

[Munomario777]

The OP uses the word "strongest", so in that case, "Having the power to move heavy weights or perform other physically demanding tasks".

Except he has Pit and Mewtwo as his top picks, neither of whom are particularly physically strong.

I was trying to say that wouldn't be fine mowing down an army of primarily human bad guys unlike robots and someone else will need to take his place instead. I don't see him putting up a fight against the most insane of sociopaths out for blood like a real villain with real minions.

Except he fights Eggman head-on with an open cockpit in most Genesis boss fights, and those open cockpits are usually the weak spot.

I was more referring to how Ganondorf in Twilight Princess never physically possessed the Power piece of the Triforce like he did in Ocarina of Time or Link to the Past. I was always under the impression that actually having it made him more powerful than just having it's power naturally.

As for Link and Zelda, it's true that they could conceivably defeat him, but I'm more saying that in terms of overall strength with the fewest weaknesses, Ganondorf wins out.

For the Sonic thing, I don't really know. Light energy isn't necessarily the holy light that the Light Arrows use.

Hmm, the source I found said that "As seen in the events of Twilight Princess, the Triforce of Power also grants Ganondorf invulnerability. Using its power, he has endured mortal wounds (such as having his chest pierced by a sword), only to remain alive and unrelenting."

Fair enough, but I found that his own Dead Man's Volley attack (the energy ball you bounce back in OoT and other games) is also one of his weaknesses, and also one of his few ranged attacks, and can seemingly be deflected by practically any attack, including a butterfly net and an empty bottle. This widens up the spectrum of characters that can defeat Ganondorf a bit.

It's debatable. According to the same source, the Light Arrow is one of his weaknesses, which is blessed with "sacred light." The "light" referred to apparently comes from the Triforce, which is a relic created by the gods. This has certain parallels to the situation with Sonic and the Arrow of Light. The Arrow of Light uses light, which seems to be created by the Chaos Emeralds (since Sonic only uses it when going Super Sonic with said Emeralds). Those same Emeralds are apparently created by (or at least have some connection to) the gods of Sonic's world, since the Master Emerald was created by said gods to keep the Chaos Emeralds in check when they were misused. So, to recap, both the Light Arrow and the Arrow of Light form arrows made of light, which is created by sacred relics, which were created by the gods.

 

[Crystanium]

Firstly, original source material does not mean all video games. You are personally deciding this fact as a baseless claim- the original source is the single source it originally came from, which is in this case a single pair of games. If not stop there, then what makes the RPG line different than the other Pokemon spinoffs? Mystery Dungeon, Trozei, Rumble, Ranger? What makes those video games different than other video games, even Smash Bros? The idea, of course, that by the creators rights, it was stated as being canon, part of the characters origin. It is only by discussing canon, as the thread is named after, that we can get to the merit of the actual conversation at hand. Canon supercedes this (false definition and) notion you have of Original Source, and must, because of factors such as retconned changes, regional disputes of games, and beyond.

Secondly, please explain to me how it is irrelevant that Mewtwo did not mind control anyone else other than Nurse Joy. That does not remove that fact that he did so to her.

Additionally, per conversation at hand, he can wipe memory, which means keep another fighter from accessing full range of abilities.

Sure, that's not what "original source material" means if the characters made their first debut in another media, such as a cartoon or movie, but in this case, the Pokémon games were made first and the anime followed after. My claim isn't baseless, as it falls on the fact that the anime wasn't made first. I don't know about these spin-offs, but if they're games, they're included as well, provided they're Pokémon games that follow the game series. Super Smash Bros. is a game where it takes all Nintendo characters into one fighting arena. It's not canon because it is its own series.

It's irrelevant that Mewtwo mind controlled Nurse Joy because he didn't bother with anyone else, and as far as I'm aware, he hasn't bothered doing it to anyone. So it's not in his nature to behave in the way you think. His behavior is more along the lines of taking someone like Nurse Joy and using her as a servant. Considering she cannot battle Mewtwo, it's worth using her as a servant to tell others of the island Mewtwo was residing. The fact that he had the opportunity to mind control anyone else who encountered him and did not do so demonstrates his nature in not going on a mind controlling spree.

Mewtwo wiped the memories of ordinary humans and their Pokémon, but has failed to demonstrate the extent of this ability, as his only purpose to do this was to hide with his genetically-engineered Pokémon. To my knowledge, he's never demonstrated this ability at any other time, which means it's not in his nature to just go on ahead and wipe peoples' memories. If you ignore Mewtwo's character, you might have an argument, but your argument relies on what you would do, not on what Mewtwo would likely do, which is more canonical than your own methods.

Except he has Pit and Mewtwo as his top picks, neither of whom are particularly physically strong.

Can you prove that?