Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[Munomario777]

Can you prove that?

The Super Smash Bros. Games balances out nintendo characters, but which one is the strongest? In my opinion, I'd say it's Mewtwo, with Pit coming at a close second. What do you guys think?

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'd go with Ganondorf. He's basically a god in terms of power, and you can count the weapons that can actually hurt him on one hand. His incarnation that didn't even acquire the Triforce of Power was impaled by a sword, and he took it pretty well.

Now if only he was that good in SSB...

Just want to point out in multiple Zelda games he is actually able to damaged by non holy weapons, just not killed. I don't think he'd be the walking invincible tank (minus holy/light weapons/abilties) people make him out to be.

In smash bros, it is.
In fact, that is the man reason we get the Pokemon choices we do. Or any Pokemon content we do get.

Sakurai not only went on record to state that one of the biggest considerations for choosing Pokemon characters is the movie line, but has proven time and time again that it influences Smash more than the games.
Goldeen pokeball instead of Magikarp, Beedrills function, Pikachu's Down B being based off the anime, Mewtwo's flippin anime voice and 'villain' classification, Lucario being added as a character.
...

But the movies and the games, in Pokemons case, are both cannon, as shown by the official Pokemon company. It is not as if we are using Sonic's anime to credit him, or even the Pokemon manga. The Pokemon anime is an accurate and reputable source, moreso than the actual Pokedex entries which can be taken as myth.

There is no discrediting the anime when it comes to the Pokemon. @Dryn, you quoted my post above and kept claiming "original source material," but to this I must refer you to the thread name, CANON. Original source would be the first game they were each in, and I assure you there, Sonic cannot do very much, including swim. Canon source would be anything agreed by the company accurately is a part of the characters lore and proper representation. Original would be the first incarnation, which is continually retconned.

When I said the movies and anime aren't canon, I meant canon relative to the games. Just because a lot Pokemon related decisions in Smash were based off of or influenced by the anime/movies doesn't make them canon for the video games, it just makes them highly popular.

All the examples you listed are stylistic (although idk what you're referring to about Beedrill). None of those contradict or add something to the games that doesn't exist like when you refer to Mewtwo wiping memories or mind controlling people. The games are the only canon material we're discussing with the exception of material that supplements the game. That's why all the characters, including Mewtwo and Lucario, have games listed under their trophies and no mention of whatever movie they appeared in.

The anime/movies and manga for Pokemon contradict each other sometimes, so you can't call either an accurate or reliable representation of the games.

 

[Crystanium]

No, what I mean is can you prove that Mewtwo or Pit aren't physically the strongest?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

No, what I mean is can you prove that Mewtwo or Pit aren't physically the strongest?

Are you serious? Mewtwo is a psychic, of course he's not going to be physically strong. Pit relies on his bow. For comparison, knocked the moon out of orbit. Neither have done that great a feat with physical strength.

 

[Munomario777]

No, what I mean is can you prove that Mewtwo or Pit aren't physically the strongest?

Aside from that, lifts fortresses and breaks brick,does the same, and lift huge boulders,does the same thing as if you play as him, etc. Also, this:

 

[Crystanium]

Are you serious? Mewtwo is a psychic, of course he's not going to be physically strong. Pit relies on his bow. For comparison, knocked the moon out of orbit. Neither have done that great a feat with physical strength.

Being psychic doesn't mean one cannot be physically strong. Characters in other series use their psychic abilities to increase their strength. Pit hasn't demonstrated any physical strength feats, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any.

Donkey Kong punched the Moon, which is nothing like our moon. I bet the size is smaller by orders of magnitude. And striking something does not equate to physical strength, which is understood as dead lifting. If anything, Link is probably the strongest, as he lifts up an obelisk. Well, if we went with the OoT incarnation. But if I do understand the gear that Samus casually tosses into the air and if it's made of brass, then she's tossing 56 metric tons with the flick of her wrist.

Aside from that, lifts fortresses and breaks brick,does the same, and lift huge boulders,does the same thing as if you play as him, etc. Also, this:

Mario doesn't lift fortresses. Clearly, the size of that castle wasn't the same when he first entered it. Chances are he reduced in size when he entered it, which wouldn't be a first in the Mario series. Mass shouldn't change, sure, but if you're only taking that one feat and comparing it to other feats where Mario struggles, then it's an outlier. Breaking bricks isn't physical strength, as in dead lifting a heavy object like Link does with those obelisks in OoT. People who learn karate can break concrete in half. In this list, Toon Link would have the best feat as he lifts those large boulders over his head. No one else here does that.

Finally, Captain Falcon didn't cause that explosion. It was a reactor that self-destruct. That's a nice example of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

[Munomario777]

Mario doesn't lift fortresses. Clearly, the size of that castle wasn't the same when he first entered it. Chances are he reduced in size when he entered it, which wouldn't be a first in the Mario series. Mass shouldn't change, sure, but if you're only taking that one feat and comparing it to other feats where Mario struggles, then it's an outlier. Breaking bricks isn't physical strength, as in dead lifting a heavy object like Link does with those obelisks in OoT. People who learn karate can break concrete in half. In this list, Toon Link would have the best feat as he lifts those large boulders over his head. No one else here does that.

He lifts fortresses. That's one of the endings to a fortress in Super Mario World. There's no debating what's onscreen. The "bigger on the inside" trope is used commonly in media, not limited to games, but many cartoons as well. Also, excerpt from the Mario Wiki:

Spoiler: Mario's strength feats

Mario has been shown to possess superhuman strength. In Super Mario World, he is seen lifting a fortress out of the ground and then kicking it away. In Super Mario 64, he can carry and throw the very large King Bob-omb, despite the king being far larger than him. An even more impressive feat is during the battles with Bowser; Mario can grab him by the tail, spin him and throw him. His strength is also shown in Super Mario Galaxy, where he can easily stun a Mega Goomba with a Star Spin despite its great size and his ability to knock Bowser around during battles with him. He can also lift Bob-ombs that are his size. In Bowser's Inside Story, although he is visibly straining, he is able to lift and throw a swelled Luigi when using the Snack Basket move. In the spinoffs, Mario, although usually balanced, boasts generally slightly higher-than-average power.

Also, the point I was making still stands, that being Pit and Mewtwo clearly aren't physically the strongest characters in the cast (and the examples I used were only counting the ones revealed for Smash 4 by the time of the OP).

 

[Etc_Guy]

Except he fights Eggman head-on with an open cockpit in most Genesis boss fights, and those open cockpits are usually the weak spot.

I meant replace (most of) the robots with former innocent civilians and kill them like any bad guy. Spongebob did this in the Movie game because of his intense bravery (or stupidity ,) without caring one bit. (Not kidding, him and Patrick are very happy-go-lucky.) Doesn't Eggman always fight too?

So I don't expect to find to put up any sort of fight against one............ ever. If a zealot organization rises, someone who is smart and carefree enough to kick any power-hungery psychopath's ***, and the Chaos and even Master Emeralds are worthless and could taken straight from Sonic's hands.

Aside from that, lifts fortresses and breaks brick,does the same, and lift huge boulders,does the same thing as if you play as him, etc. Also, this:

How dare you not mention !

Being psychic doesn't mean one cannot be physically strong. Characters in other series use their psychic abilities to increase their strength. Pit hasn't demonstrated any physical strength feats, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have any.

Being physic means that you rely more on throwing things and mind control than muscle. As for , some of those weapons might be heavy..... Might.

Donkey Kong punched the Moon, which is nothing like our moon. I bet the size is smaller by orders of magnitude. And striking something does not equate to physical strength, which is understood as dead lifting. If anything, Link is probably the strongest, as he lifts up an obelisk. Well, if we went with the OoT incarnation. But if I do understand the gear that Samus casually tosses into the air and if it's made of brass, then she's tossing 56 metric tons with the flick of her wrist.

Doesn't Link need a special glove do lift very heavy objects? Wario can easily carry what most people need some form of enhancements to.

 

[Munomario777]

I meant replace (most of) the robots with former innocent civilians and kill them like any bad guy. Spongebob did this in the Movie game because of his intense bravery (or stupidity ,) without caring one bit. (Not kidding, him and Patrick are very happy-go-lucky.) Doesn't Eggman always fight too?

So I don't expect to find to put up any sort of fight against one............ ever. If a zealot organization rises, someone who is smart and carefree enough to kick any power-hungery psychopath's ***, and the Chaos and even Master Emeralds are worthless and could taken straight from Sonic's hands.



How dare you not mention !

Except they're not innocent from Sonic's point of view. They're dedicated to fighting in this context, like a gladiator match, and both are willing to do it. Killing innocent civilians =/= sparring with someone who is willing to do the same. Also, the Emeralds wouldn't be in his hands to begin with.

I was only including characters that we knew for sure were in the game by the time the OP was posted (that being February). Wario wasn't revealed until around the 3DS version's release.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm not sure where he ranked on the last tier list, (I went back several pages and couldn't find one), but I think (Male) Robin should be high tier.
Why? Because of his ability to get any skill in the game (not including Aether, Rightful King or enemy only skills), which makes him very versatile. Here's a list of some his better trigger skills. Trigger skills means they aren't always active and when they are used depends on their activation rate. With a max skill of 50, Robin's activate pretty frequently but I'll be as specific as I can in notes. FYI I put a TL:DR version at bottom for those who don't care for details:

• Ignis: Adds half of his magic strength to his physical attacks and vice versa. Effectively (at least on a grandmaster) it increases his attack strength by 1.5. Activates around 50% of time.
• Luna: Ignores half of resistance (basically magic defense) and defense. Activates around 50% of time
• Astra: 5 consecutive hits at half strength. Activates around 25% of time
• Sol: Recovers HP equal to half of damage dealt. Activates around 50% of time.
• Pavise: Halves damage from swords, lances, axes and beast attacks. Activates around 50% of time
• Aegis: Halves damages from bows and magic. Activates around 50% of time
• Lethality: Instant kill Activates around 12.5% of time. (FYI Wouldn't affect character who is immune to instant death, i.e. a pokemon with sturdy)
• Vengeance: Deals (user’s Max HP – Current HP)/2 extra damage. Activates nearly 100% of time. Has highest priority

FYI: multiple offensive/defensive trigger skills never activate at once.

Here are his skills that are always on:

• Sword/tome/lance/axebreaker/breaker: Ability to dodge those weapons increased by by +50. (It's hard to translate this because it varies on your own hit rate, the weapons hit rate, and the enemies avoid rate but just to you an idea: The difference between a character with a high hit rate using a sword against someone with swordbreaker and without swordbreaker is 100% vs 82%.)
• Renewal: recovers 30% HP at start of every turn
• Counter: All melee/up close attacks that don't kill you return half of damage dealt.
• Vantage: Gets to attack first when under half HP.
• Avoid +10, Prescience(Avoid and Hit rate +15 when your turn to attack)/Patience (Avoid and hit rate +10 when enemies turn to attack), Indoors/outdoors fighter (avoid+10), hit rate +20: Individually these are weak but combined (pending on if he's attacking or attacked) boost his evasion and hit rate individually by +30/35. Once again hard to translate to a non RPG but basically against inaccurate moves/lesser fighters it's a good, but only slightly so when not. But in a battle against a high tier foe, even only like a 5-10% evasion or ability to hit enemy increase helps.
• Anathema: Enemies within 3 spaces (a ranged Fire Emblem attack, i.e. bows is 2 spaces) have - 15 avoid. Hex: -15 to adjacent abilities. Would be helpful in small area/up-close when stacked with above modifiers.

Another option for Avatar that's less complicated to translate into a non-rpg fight: Take all the evasion/hit rate/defensive trigger skills I mentioned but forget all the offensive trigger skills (he still can use them, their just not the focus here). but Vengeance and make Robin a Sorcerer. This restricts him to only magic but let's him use dark magic including.
Why is this dangerous? A (legally) max Aversa's night recovers half of damage dealt and does more damage than any of the games holy/legendary weapons while having an extremely high hit rate (around 90%).
Additionally:

• Ruin: Average strength but has a critical rate of around 50% and a (forged) high hit rate.
• Mire: A truly long range weapon (3-10 tiles. For context, In game maps can be small as 14 spaces wide/long. Around strength of a weaker legendary weapons when forged) however only average accuracy.
• Waste: Strong (around strength of a weaker legendary weapons when forged) but only average accuracy.
• Goetia: Strong as strongest holy/legendary weapons. FYI unlike in SSB4, attack looks like a large dark magic explosion.

Last but not least (this applies to both grandmaster and sorcerer Robin): He can use Book of Naga, one of the strongest spells (and weapons period) in the game and also is a holy weapon, meaning it can defeat Ganondorf. Same applies for the Balmung but only Grandmaster Robin can use that.

I think either version allows him to compete with anyone but maybe Sonic (idk about Shulk. I'm ignoring all posts related to him because I'm getting that game for Christmas and want no spoilers.)

TL;DR:
A) Grandmaster Robin has a bevy of skills that allow him to either frequently ignore an enemies defense, heal himself while causing damage or just deal an attack with boosted stats. Defensively, he also has ability to frequently half damage from sword/lances/axes/bows/dragon/beasts while having a high evasion rate. For always active skills, he has the ability to hit first with under 50% or less of health, counter all melee damage for half of damage suffered and heal 30% of HP every turn. Plus handful of evasion boosting skills that would really help because they stack.
B) Sorcerer Robin can use Aversa's Night, a (when forged) weapon stronger than the games best holy/legendary weapons that's extremely accurate and when combined with Vengeance. Plus, against slower foes he can kill them from very long distance with Mire.
C) He has access to holy weapons for dealing with Ganondorf.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Reposting my tier list, adding changes according to arguments, as well as adding Tabuu and unlockable newcomers. Remember, everyone can beat anyone below them.
Tier 1 (Godlike):
Sandbag







Tier 2 (Very Powerful):











Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)

































Tier 4 (Super Weak):









Sorry R.O.B.

 

[Munomario777]

Reposting my tier list, adding changes according to arguments, as well as adding Tabuu and unlockable newcomers. Remember, everyone can beat anyone below them.
Tier 1 (Godlike):
Sandbag







Tier 2 (Very Powerful):











Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)

































Tier 4 (Super Weak):









Sorry R.O.B.

Wait, wait, wait. How is Olimar above the Wii Fit Trainer?

 

[Etc_Guy]

Reposting my tier list, adding changes according to arguments, as well as adding Tabuu and unlockable newcomers. Remember, everyone can beat anyone below them.
Tier 1 (Godlike):
Sandbag







Tier 2 (Very Powerful):











Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)

































Tier 4 (Super Weak):









Sorry R.O.B.

Sandbag above everyone? No big surprise.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Wait, wait, wait. How is Olimar above the Wii Fit Trainer?

Wii Fit Trainer probably isn't used to fighting something so small (like most anyone else) and doesn't have many real options. Stomping? Say hello to Rock Pikmin. He'd probably aim for the Achilles Tendon or hobble her ankles to start with, then when she's down, send Pikmin to attack her orifices until she's dead.

 

[warriorman222]

saved the video gaming insustry single handedly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*9001 Sandbag>>>>>>>*9000Everyone else.

 

[IvanQuote]

saved the video gaming insustry single handedly.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*9001 Sandbag>>>>>>>*9000Everyone else.

Does metaphysical stuff like this really apply to who is the strongest? You could say the same of Pac Man being influential by getting a large number of women into gaming.

 

[Munomario777]

Yes, but how would Olimar actually defeat the Wii Fit Trainer? Wii Fit Trainer crushes Olimar with her foot, and the Pikmin have no leader.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Yes, but how would Olimar actually defeat the Wii Fit Trainer? Wii Fit Trainer crushes Olimar with her foot, and the Pikmin have no leader.

Not if her foot's crushed. Olimar could likely dodge. Also, there are Winged Pikmin that Olimar could use to fly.

 

[Munomario777]

Not if her foot's crushed. Olimar could likely dodge. Also, there are Winged Pikmin that Olimar could use to fly.

Belly slam. Also, the Winged Pikmin are about the size of flies. The Trainer could easily swat them out of the air. By the way, the ordering in that chart is based on the fact that all characters can defeat those below them. I have yet to see how Olimar can defeat the Wii Fit Trainer.

 

[Crystanium]

He lifts fortresses. That's one of the endings to a fortress in Super Mario World. There's no debating what's onscreen. The "bigger on the inside" trope is used commonly in media, not limited to games, but many cartoons as well. Also, excerpt from the Mario Wiki:

Spoiler: Mario's strength feats

Mario has been shown to possess superhuman strength. In Super Mario World, he is seen lifting a fortress out of the ground and then kicking it away. In Super Mario 64, he can carry and throw the very large King Bob-omb, despite the king being far larger than him. An even more impressive feat is during the battles with Bowser; Mario can grab him by the tail, spin him and throw him. His strength is also shown in Super Mario Galaxy, where he can easily stun a Mega Goomba with a Star Spin despite its great size and his ability to knock Bowser around during battles with him. He can also lift Bob-ombs that are his size. In Bowser's Inside Story, although he is visibly straining, he is able to lift and throw a swelled Luigi when using the Snack Basket move. In the spinoffs, Mario, although usually balanced, boasts generally slightly higher-than-average power.

Also, the point I was making still stands, that being Pit and Mewtwo clearly aren't physically the strongest characters in the cast (and the examples I used were only counting the ones revealed for Smash 4 by the time of the OP).

Well, let's take that calculation into consideration, then. Mario is 61 in., or 154.94 cm. In Super Mario World, this is equal to 61 pixels. (Nice!) The castle is 142 px. when including the protrusions or whatever they are on the castle. I'll ignore that for now and get back to it after. So I'll subtract 16 px. So that's 126 px. Castles aren't a complete solid, as there is open space inside, so I'm not sure how to make a calculation of a cylindrical torus, so what I'll do instead is do a calculation to remove the inner parts. Then I could make an approximation that leans toward a higher end, since there are things within the castle. It's not simply hollow.

So the castle is 126 px. and Mario is 61 px., which means I will divide 126 px. over 61 px. to get 2.0655737704918033, or 207% of Mario's height. Multiplying this by Mario's height tells us that the castle is 320.040000000000003302 cm. (10 ft., 6 in.) The diameter of the castle is 121 px. 121 px. / 61 px. is 1.9836065573770492 (198%). Taking Mario's height and multiplying it by this is 307.340000000000003048 cm.

So now we can find the volume of this castle using pi * r^2 * h. I will divide the diameter of the castle, since to divide the diameter by 2 gives us the radius.

pi * 153.670000000000001524 cm^2 * 320.040000000000003302 cm.
= 154,505.24452640901749 cm^3

Next, it's time to take the inside away and I suppose since I'm not taking into consideration the density of the door, let alone the windows, whatever I end up with will be the net mass. So time to remove the insides of the castle! I will do this by taking 100 pixels so that the outer walls are 10 px. thick (25.400000000000000508 cm.; 10 in.) I will also remove 10 px. from the castle's height, giving us 116 px. instead.

Speeding through all this, the inner part would be 254.00000000000000508 cm. in diameter and 294.640000000000002794 cm. in height.

pi * 127.00000000000000254 cm^2 * 294.640000000000002794 cm.
= 117,556.1351506194818 cm^3

Now I will take the two volumes and subtract them to find the net volume.

154,505.24452640901749 cm^3 - 117,556.1351506194818 cm^3
= 36,949.10937578953569 cm^3

I'm now going to take the top parts, but I will consider the height, length, and width and then multiply by 6, since I'm sure there's supposed to be 6 of these things on top of the castle, not 3. I will say that's a graphical limitation for the SNES. The "crown", I suppose it could be called, is 16 px. tall, 38 px. long, and 22 px. wide. This gives us the dimensions of 40.639999999999997714 cm. by 96.519999999999992634 cm. by 55.87999999999999492 cm., or 219,193.368063999951 cm^3. Multiplying this by 6 gives us 1,315,160.208383999706 cm^3. Time to add.

1,315,160.208383999706 cm^3 + 36,949.10937578953569 cm^3
= 1,352,109.31775978924169 cm^3

I don't know what castles are typically made of. I won't assume wood, as that would have been the case before. It's made of stone, so if I went with something like sandstone, which has a density of 2.65 g/cm^3, then multiplying this by the volume would give me 3,583 kg., or 3.583 metric tons, which would be 2.1 times a small car's mass.

Considering Samus tosses a whale-sized creature called Vorash out of lava, which is far more viscous than water, and the fact that it's covered in lava, adding onto its mass, and its resisting Samus' pull, only to be thrown all the way in the air, I'd say Samus is physically stronger (than most here), should we ignore the feat of her casually tossing a large gear with the flick of her wrist in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption.

Doesn't Link need a special glove do lift very heavy objects? Wario can easily carry what most people need some form of enhancements to.

Link requires gauntlets, but in recent incarnations, such as Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword, he's been using his own physical strength, which, funnily, is greater than Mario's strength feat I just calculated.

Your list.

I support Samus Aran, so I'll give a quick thought on each.

Sonic would be faster than Samus, but he would need to rely on something other than bull rushing Samus, since she can take forces greater than what he exerts at Mach 5. And if Samus can react to the speed of sound traveling in water, which is faster than 343 m/s (Approx. Mach 4.5), she should be able to hold her own against Sonic. Sonic might realize nothing is working on Samus and may decide using some other means. At the same time, if Samus cannot hit Sonic with her beams, she might consider using a power bomb, which travels faster than Mach 5 and covers a wide area.

I've taken Mewtwo's abilities into consideration around the 40+ pages and found nothing that would lead me to think Mewtwo would be a threat to Samus.

I know nothing about him.

Ganondorf has never dealt with anything like Samus' weaponry, so even though people put him on a pedestal of being unbeatable without an evil's bane, I see no reason why Ganondorf would be able to withstand most, if not any, of Samus' weapons.

I didn't bother watching the video about Kirby versus Majin Boo, only because there are a few videos I've seen from Death Battles that disappointed me when the opposite would have actually won. Also, they're not the definitive source of who would win. So here's my take. Kirby has this new ability that allows him to inhale larger opponents. That's great, but what's bad is that when Kirby inhales, he has a bit of a start-up lag going on. And I don't think Samus would let Kirby get too close. She's more of a mid- to long-range fighter, though she knows a few techniques in close-combat.

I don't know anything about him.

As far as I'm aware, Rosalina doesn't have any abilities that would prevent Samus from defeating her. And if you missed it, there are doubts about her resetting the Universe. And if she did, there is no indication that she would go out of her way to reset the Universe.

Nope. He's only human. His Pokémon might give Samus a bit more trouble, but without a trainer, what good is a Pokmon, unless it's feral?

Not a chance. Give credit to Paula and the others for praying.

Anyone who has played Kid Icarus: Uprising will know Pit is vulnerable to heat, electricity, and possibly ice. Samus wields these and more.

It would make more sense to put Palutena above Pit by virtue of rank, considering Palutena grants Pit his abilities.

Ha! Samus defeated Dark Samus and Samus Aran-X. No contest. (That was fun.)

Not a chance.

Not a chance.

Not a chance.

A worthy opponent, but Samus beats Mega Man by speed alone. They're pretty close in weaponry and durability, though.

I don't know anything about him.

I'd say he loses like Kirby.

I don't know anything about him.

It'd be better if we used Paper Mario. Considering Mario is vulnerable to lava, even with the Star Man, the plasma beam should be more effective.

I'd say the same.

I don't know anything about her.

"Not even close!"

Not uh.

Nope. Sorry, DK. I really do like you.

Loses like Ness.

I don't know anything about him.

In the ship or outside of it?

I never played Super Princess Peach. If she's not anything like Paper Mario, chances she'll lose.

Could be interesting.

He'd lose.

Not enough feats for Zelda, so she loses.

He'd lose.

I don't know a whole lot about Wario. If he's not too different from Mario, he loses.

He loses.

Not sure.

Not sure.

Not sure.

Samus runs faster than the Blue Falcon. He loses.

Not sure.

Probably loses.

I don't know what this is.

He loses.

I don't know what this is supposed to represent.

Loses.

Is he in his ship?

What is this?

Loses.

Loses.

Is he in his ship?

Loses.

Loses.

Sorry R.O.B.

These all lose.

 

[Munomario777]

Sonic would be faster than Samus, but he would need to rely on something other than bull rushing Samus, since she can take forces greater than what he exerts at Mach 5. And if Samus can react to the speed of sound traveling in water, which is faster than 343 m/s (Approx. Mach 4.5), she should be able to hold her own against Sonic. Sonic might realize nothing is working on Samus and may decide using some other means. At the same time, if Samus cannot hit Sonic with her beams, she might consider using a power bomb, which travels faster than Mach 5 and covers a wide area.

Interesting finds with those calculations. I believe the weight of a couple of cars is more than any of Pit's weapons, though, so my original point still stands. I won't reply to the rest of the list, but I'll respond to your bit about Sonic.

Can Samus survive a ball covered in spines spinning at high speed rocketing towards her at the speed of light (Super Sonic's top speed)? I haven't seen a source for anything like that. Also, multiple Mach's/speed of light/what have you > the speed of sound in water. A power bomb wouldn't work on Super Sonic, since he's invulnerable to heat in practically all of his appearances (he can walk on lava in games such as Sonic 2, 3, Generations, and the like), and I believe you said earlier that the Power Bomb is heat-based. Even without the transformation, he still has the Fire Shield, which negates all fire/lava/heat-based attacks. Plus, time freezing with Chaos Control. I know I might sound like a broken record at this point, but it's one of his most potent abilities, and seems to be overlooked quite a bit in this thread.

 

[Etc_Guy]

Loses.

Samus loses to Samus? Who knew?

I don't know a whole lot about Wario. If he's not too different from Mario, he loses.

I recommend you play some Wario Land games. The instant you boot up the first one, it's easy to say that Wario is very different than Mario. He also did pull-off some of the feats Samus in some of the later games without technology even if they are on a smaller scale.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'd say the space animals start out of their vehicles, but can get in them if they want.

These are the Mii Fighters.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

I'm just going to put my comments in bold because doing like Dryn did and individually quoting each placement I have beef with is too tedious.

Reposting my tier list, adding changes according to arguments, as well as adding Tabuu and unlockable newcomers. Remember, everyone can beat anyone below them.
Tier 1 (Godlike):
Sandbag





Why on Earth is he so high? From what I know of him (admittedly limited knowledge) he's probably just a slightly stronger version of Lucinia. He has access to some good skills , but outside of being an excellent, fast and strong swordsman he shouldn't be this high. I don't see how stops any of Ness's PSI attacks, Samus's/Link/Toon Link/Pit/Dark Pit/Palutena's projectiles. He should actually probably be below Lucina since she can wield lances, giving her another form of attack and projectile.

Tier 2 (Very Powerful):
If we assume he isn't a part of fight and can use any 6 Pokemon, he's too low. If we assume he isn't part of fight but (being based on Red) only has access to Gen 1, is ranked right. If he is a part of the fight, than he's a little high unless he gets to unleash all 6 Pokemon at once.


Should be above Pit. Pit only won because Palutena had been weakened by years of being controlled by very powerful creature. (think of Marth fighting Ike who'd been dealing years of cancer) She can do anything Pit can, although it's debatable if she's at good with any of the many weapons in Uprising as Pit.
Should definitely be Tier one. Could definitely take out Marth and Rosalina, stands a good chance vs kirby, Ganondorf and Mewtwo.


Why are Young and Toon Link split? Theyre the same person in some games.

I see no reason he'd significantly lower than Marth or above Lucina.
Dont see how he beats any of the FE characters, Mario Bros, Pokemon or Bowser. Same size as Kirby but FAAAAAAR less versatile.
Tabuu
Tier 3 (Mid-Tier)



Should be above Marth (based off the latest Fire Emblem) since they have similar stats and Lucina can use lances, giving her a weapon advantage of Marth. I'd place her and the rest of the FE characters consecutively, With Lucinia and Ike Being 1 and 2.

Tell Me How on earth Mac is this high. What's stopping Fox from bombing him with his Arwing, Donkey Kong from punching his head off, Bowser from slashing him to bits and burning him alive...I can go on but I think my point is clear. As far as I'm aware Little Mac is only human.


Just did a lengthy post on him. He should be around top of tier 2 at worst.












Should be above Diddy Kong but below Lucario. What does Diddy do against after being paralyzed then killed by Pikachu spamming Thunder/Thunderbolt?











Tier 4 (Super Weak):


If Dr. Mario has all of Mario's physical attributes but access to none of his power-ups or items, which I'm assuming is the premise, this is too low. Should be bottom of tier 3.


He's a weak pokemon but he still shoots freaking lightning. I don't see how doesn't Shock all the people in tier 4 above him to death, not to mention he can outrun anyone in this tier.



Sorry R.O.B.

I also support Samus and have thoughts on your comments, which I put in bold in this quote box to save time and space.

Sonic would be faster than Samus, but he would need to rely on something other than bull rushing Samus, since she can take forces greater than what he exerts at Mach 5. And if Samus can react to the speed of sound traveling in water, which is faster than 343 m/s (Approx. Mach 4.5), she should be able to hold her own against Sonic. Sonic might realize nothing is working on Samus and may decide using some other means. At the same time, if Samus cannot hit Sonic with her beams, she might consider using a power bomb, which travels faster than Mach 5 and covers a wide area.

My only disagreement with this is I don't see how Samus stops Super Sonic.

I've taken Mewtwo's abilities into consideration around the 40+ pages and found nothing that would lead me to think Mewtwo would be a threat to Samus.

Have to disagree, any of his best moves (Psychic, ice beam, flame thrower) would hit Samus like a strong boss attack, plus he has reflect and light screen (which stay up for several minutes in front of user) to deflect her projectiles.


I know nothing about him.

Me Either.


Ganondorf has never dealt with anything like Samus' weaponry, so even though people put him on a pedestal of being unbeatable without an evil's bane, I see no reason why Ganondorf would be able to withstand most, if not any, of Samus' weapons.

The only reason Ganondorf wins is if none of her weapons can kill him. Otherwise clear win for Samus.

I didn't bother watching the video about Kirby versus Majin Boo, only because there are a few videos I've seen from Death Battles that disappointed me when the opposite would have actually won. Also, they're not the definitive source of who would win. So here's my take. Kirby has this new ability that allows him to inhale larger opponents. That's great, but what's bad is that when Kirby inhales, he has a bit of a start-up lag going on. And I don't think Samus would let Kirby get too close. She's more of a mid- to long-range fighter, though she knows a few techniques in close-combat.

Kirby also can operate from mid to long range but I think the difference in size and firepower doom Kirby here.

I don't know anything about him.

I've seen nothing in a fire emblem game suggesting he or any other Fire Emblem fighter stands much of a chance since they can't do squat from long range.



As far as I'm aware, Rosalina doesn't have any abilities that would prevent Samus from defeating her. And if you missed it, there are doubts about her resetting the Universe. And if she did, there is no indication that she would go out of her way to reset the Universe.

She does have that forcefield but even if she can keep it up forever, she has no real way of hurting Samus.


Nope. He's only human. His Pokémon might give Samus a bit more trouble, but without a trainer, what good is a Pokmon, unless it's feral?

We (as in the whole thread) need a debate on how many Pokemon he can use at once and if he can be hit. I personally think it defeats the purpose if he's not floating off unable to be harmed a la SSBB, in which case he can probably beat Samus.

Not a chance. Give credit to Paula and the others for praying.

I'd need to replay Uprising but I believe his Orbitars would help deflect or weaken a lot of Samus' projectiles but not nearly enough to win the fight.



It would make more sense to put Palutena above Pit by virtue of rank, considering Palutena grants Pit his abilities.

She can also use the same power-ups and probably his weapons (at least the Bow).
Also regarding Pit and Palutena, if you played Uprising, you should remember both would have access to a bevy of power-ups that can make anyone's day difficult. Just a few examples:

• Reflect barrier (Stops any projectile but only appears in front of user.
• Black Hole (sucks in Samus and makes her an easy target(
• Mega Laser (Exactly what you think. If you use this after Mega Laser...)
• Brief Invincibility
• Super Armor
• Super Speed
• Paralyze attack

They can use any of these (and many more) power-ups 4 to 5 times. Plus Palutena has her own set of moves I've listed several pages back. They have a strong case for being not just above Samus but in Tier 1.

.

 

[Crystanium]

Interesting finds with those calculations. I believe the weight of a couple of cars is more than any of Pit's weapons, though, so my original point still stands. I won't reply to the rest of the list, but I'll respond to your bit about Sonic.

Can Samus survive a ball covered in spines spinning at high speed rocketing towards her at the speed of light (Super Sonic's top speed)? I haven't seen a source for anything like that. Also, multiple Mach's/speed of light/what have you > the speed of sound in water. A power bomb wouldn't work on Super Sonic, since he's invulnerable to heat in practically all of his appearances (he can walk on lava in games such as Sonic 2, 3, Generations, and the like), and I believe you said earlier that the Power Bomb is heat-based. Even without the transformation, he still has the Fire Shield, which negates all fire/lava/heat-based attacks. Plus, time freezing with Chaos Control. I know I might sound like a broken record at this point, but it's one of his most potent abilities, and seems to be overlooked quite a bit in this thread.

I'm sure I could find a higher calc for Mario's strength.

As said in previous posts, in order for Sonic to travel light speed, he needs to have infinite energy or he needs to be massless. I'd go with the latter. I won't expect the developers of Sonic to know either of these, but using physics, we'll need to work with either one or assume light doesn't travel at 299,792,458 m/s in the Sonicverse. If Sonic becomes light, which is to say he becomes photons, then Samus will receive damage. The thing is, lasers aren't too much of an issue for Samus. Again, they'll damage her energy shield, but it won't be instantaneous death.

I've been working with Mach 5 for Sonic because he's "the hypersonic hedgehog". His light speed dash is brief.

As for power bombs, I've only gone with the idea that it is "heat-based" and possibly a thermobaric weapon because denzium has a high melting point and Adam says it sends a very high wave of heat over a large area that is capable of vaporizing humans. (It can vaporize Ingsmashers, who are larger and made of some alien alloy.) However, thermobaric weapons cannot be used underwater, which power bombs can. So the fuel could very well be TNT (Samus once being part of the military and TNT being a common explosive). However, thermobaric weapon can reach 2,000 to 3,000 centigrade.

Source: http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_thermobaric.html

Surviving lava/magma is something Samus has no problem with. If Sonic can do that in his super form, that's fine, but the low-end would be 700 centigrade. We can only work with what the fire shield protects Sonic from, but we cannot assume that it will negate temperatures such as these. That would lead into a no-limits fallacy.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm sure I could find a higher calc for Mario's strength.

As said in previous posts, in order for Sonic to travel light speed, he needs to have infinite energy or he needs to be massless. I'd go with the latter. I won't expect the developers of Sonic to know either of these, but using physics, we'll need to work with either one or assume light doesn't travel at 299,792,458 m/s in the Sonicverse. If Sonic becomes light, which is to say he becomes photons, then Samus will receive damage. The thing is, lasers aren't too much of an issue for Samus. Again, they'll damage her energy shield, but it won't be instantaneous death.

I've been working with Mach 5 for Sonic because he's "the hypersonic hedgehog". His light speed dash is brief.

As for power bombs, I've only gone with the idea that it is "heat-based" and possibly a thermobaric weapon because denzium has a high melting point and Adam says it sends a very high wave of heat over a large area that is capable of vaporizing humans. (It can vaporize Ingsmashers, who are larger and made of some alien alloy.) However, thermobaric weapons cannot be used underwater, which power bombs can. So the fuel could very well be TNT (Samus once being part of the military and TNT being a common explosive). However, thermobaric weapon can reach 2,000 to 3,000 centigrade.

Source: http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/weapons_thermobaric.html

Surviving lava/magma is something Samus has no problem with. If Sonic can do that in his super form, that's fine, but the low-end would be 700 centigrade. We can only work with what the fire shield protects Sonic from, but we cannot assume that it will negate temperatures such as these. That would lead into a no-limits fallacy.

I did the math on the Big Bob-Omb from Super Mario 64, but it equated to just under what you found for the fortresses. There might be something buried deep in Mario history, though.

The Chaos Emeralds are linked to the Master Emerald, which canonically contains infinite energy. Also, I think it's been established that canon statements > real-world science.

Except Super Sonic can move at light speed without any limit (at least, there's none shown in-game or at any point in the series, besides ring count for staying transformed in the first place).

It could just be the same logic that Mario's underwater fireballs use (a video somewhere on YouTube explained that the fireballs could be some sort of burning solid rocket fuel-like substance). Or it could be some sort of advanced heat weapon that, in addition to using the oxygen in the air to generate heat, can also use the oxygen in the water.

I agree that the Fire Shield hasn't been shown to protect against temperatures that extreme, but it's been stated (and demonstrated) that Super Sonic can only be damaged by being crushed, falling into bottomless pits, and drowning (and some of the more powerful attacks in the series, such as those used by select god-monsters); bombs, whether or not they're of the power variety, aren't a part of that list.

 

[Crystanium]

I did the math on the Big Bob-Omb from Super Mario 64, but it equated to just under what you found for the fortresses. There might be something buried deep in Mario history, though.

The Chaos Emeralds are linked to the Master Emerald, which canonically contains infinite energy. Also, I think it's been established that canon statements > real-world science.

Except Super Sonic can move at light speed without any limit (at least, there's none shown in-game or at any point in the series, besides ring count for staying transformed in the first place).

It could just be the same logic that Mario's underwater fireballs use (a video somewhere on YouTube explained that the fireballs could be some sort of burning solid rocket fuel-like substance). Or it could be some sort of advanced heat weapon that, in addition to using the oxygen in the air to generate heat, can also use the oxygen in the water.

I agree that the Fire Shield hasn't been shown to protect against temperatures that extreme, but it's been stated (and demonstrated) that Super Sonic can only be damaged by being crushed, falling into bottomless pits, and drowning (and some of the more powerful attacks in the series, such as those used by select god-monsters); bombs, whether or not they're of the power variety, aren't a part of that list.

My focus right now is addressing your replies, so I apologize to everyone else whom I have not yet replied to.

The problem with King Bob-Omb is that I'm not sure what his insides are made of, but I know lifting up King Bob-Omb would be an excellent feat, regardless. I'll try to find some more information when the holiday season dies down a bit. For now, I'm going to be spending time with family today and tomorrow, so I won't be able to get back soon.

Super Sonic can move at the speed of light? Are you saying without the light speed dash? If so, I would ask for a citation. And if this is the case, then disregard what I said about Samus' possibility at defeating Sonic.

Thermobaric weapons use air as fuel, and water and air are two different things, which also mean weather also affects thermobaric weapons. As for being crushed, the link I sent in my previous post states "those not incinerated are crushed to death and a powerful blast wave is sent out followed by a vacuum sucking in objects as the cloud rapidly cools". This also makes it possible that power bombs are thermobaric weapons. X parasites in Metroid Fusion are sucked into the location where the power bomb is set.

I'm off for now. I hope you and everyone else has a merry Christmas!

 

[Munomario777]

My focus right now is addressing your replies, so I apologize to everyone else whom I have not yet replied to.

The problem with King Bob-Omb is that I'm not sure what his insides are made of, but I know lifting up King Bob-Omb would be an excellent feat, regardless. I'll try to find some more information when the holiday season dies down a bit. For now, I'm going to be spending time with family today and tomorrow, so I won't be able to get back soon.

Super Sonic can move at the speed of light? Are you saying without the light speed dash? If so, I would ask for a citation. And if this is the case, then disregard what I said about Samus' possibility at defeating Sonic.

Thermobaric weapons use air as fuel, and water and air are two different things, which also mean weather also affects thermobaric weapons. As for being crushed, the link I sent in my previous post states "those not incinerated are crushed to death and a powerful blast wave is sent out followed by a vacuum sucking in objects as the cloud rapidly cools". This also makes it possible that power bombs are thermobaric weapons. X parasites in Metroid Fusion are sucked into the location where the power bomb is set.

I'm off for now. I hope you and everyone else has a merry Christmas!

I used iron as the material in my calculations, since he looks very similar to the clearly iron cannonballs and Bullet Bills found in earlier games (black shine, cannonballs are usually made of iron, Bullet Bill-looking ones were used in cannons at some point, etc.). I'll be doing family things tomorrow as well, so I probably won't post here much.

http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Sonic#Powers_and_Abilities

Yes, that's why I used the term "heat bomb" rather than "thermobaric bomb." Also, the term "crushed" in the source I linked refers to being crushed between two solid objects (like two steel walls moving closer).

Merry Christmas to you too! I would add a Christmas hat to my avatar or something, but I'm too lazy.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I'm just going to put my comments in bold because doing like Dryn did and individually quoting each placement I have beef with is too tedious.



I also support Samus and have thoughts on your comments, which I put in bold in this quote box to save time and space.

Wields Falchion, with a power that protects him from any non-dragon attacks. Very few, if any, of these guys use dragon attacks, making him practically invincible.
I'd say he starts off only commanding Pokemon, and he can use any non-legendary six, all at once. However, once all Pokemon are KO'd, he gets involved.
Okay.
The only one of the characters you mentioned she could win against is, well, no one. She has no way of defeating Ganon or Marth, Kirby could inhale all her attacks, and Mewtwo is quite powerful, even for Samus. She could potentially defeat Rosalina, but other than her, she ain't goin' nowhere.
Some games, but not all. I analyze every individual that gets into the game. Young Link has games where he isn't Toon, giving him Toon's abilities plus more.
Goddess power OP.
Galacta Knight was the strongest in the Kirby universe, though Meta Knight defeated him, making Meta the second strongest being in the Kirby universe. First is Kirby.
Falchion never worked for Lucina like it worked for Marth. Lucina doesn't have immunity to non-dragon attacks.
Funny story, Donkey Kong actually tried to do that once. It didn't turn out too well. Little Mac is about moon level.
I read the post. He probably would've been lower if I didn't read it. I once looked at the skills Robin could use. A lot of them are just game mechanics that absolutely cannot be translated into real world. The others are basically just stat-raising. Cool. Combine that with his tomes, and he's high mid-tier level.
Okay.
I gave him pills to throw, but other than that, no items. He should get Mario's stats, however, so okay.
Okay.

 

[Munomario777]

Some games, but not all. I analyze every individual that gets into the game. Young Link has games where he isn't Toon, giving him Toon's abilities plus more.

Each Link is different. Young Link from Melee is clearly Child Link from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. Toon Link in Smash is the Hero of Winds from Wind Waker, and is separate from the Links in Four Swords (Adventures) and the Hero of Trains (lol) from Spirit Tracks. Thus, Young Link gets his abilities from OoT/MM, while TWW is the source for Toon Link's abilities.

 

[warriorman222]

Does metaphysical stuff like this really apply to who is the strongest? You could say the same of Pac Man being influential by getting a large number of women into gaming.

For the love of god, it was a joke -_-. Sandbag alone should have implied that.

 

[ShadowLBlue]

Wields Falchion, with a power that protects him from any non-dragon attacks. Very few, if any, of these guys use dragon attacks, making him practically invincible.
I'd say he starts off only commanding Pokemon, and he can use any non-legendary six, all at once. However, once all Pokemon are KO'd, he gets involved.
Okay.
The only one of the characters you mentioned she could win against is, well, no one. She has no way of defeating Ganon or Marth, Kirby could inhale all her attacks, and Mewtwo is quite powerful, even for Samus. She could potentially defeat Rosalina, but other than her, she ain't goin' nowhere.
Some games, but not all. I analyze every individual that gets into the game. Young Link has games where he isn't Toon, giving him Toon's abilities plus more.
Goddess power OP.
Galacta Knight was the strongest in the Kirby universe, though Meta Knight defeated him, making Meta the second strongest being in the Kirby universe. First is Kirby.
Falchion never worked for Lucina like it worked for Marth. Lucina doesn't have immunity to non-dragon attacks.
Funny story, Donkey Kong actually tried to do that once. It didn't turn out too well. Little Mac is about moon level.
I read the post. He probably would've been lower if I didn't read it. I once looked at the skills Robin could use. A lot of them are just game mechanics that absolutely cannot be translated into real world. The others are basically just stat-raising. Cool. Combine that with his tomes, and he's high mid-tier level.
Okay.
I gave him pills to throw, but other than that, no items. He should get Mario's stats, however, so okay.
Okay.

I've never heard of that before in all the years I've had these debates so I had to google it. So my apologies, he does belong in tier 1. However, the description for the Falchion in the first FE says "Negates damage from non-manakete direct attacks." That means he is a bad match-up for someone like Samus, Pit or Palutena with a lot of projectiles.

Why No legendaries?

I'm assuming okay means you agree.

Yea it's hard to argue she has anything that hurts Ganondorf but I already showed above she can hurt Marth.
And I disagree on Kirby, he can't absorb Wavebuster, flamethrower, Screw attack, speed booster or Power bomb. Additionally if he's in base form that means he doesn't have any way to inflict significant damage on Samus (her suits tough and has a lot of health tanks. He'd need to use a copy essence to hurt her which would simultaneously keep him from absorbing her attacks.
And I actually didn't say should be above Mewtwo, I actually argued she has a good chance. I have no beef with her being below Mewtwo.
And I'm curious what you mean by "potentially" about Rosalina. I'm no sonic_brawler but from all the mario I've played I don't recall having a single item/ability that would let her beat Samus.

I don't disagree but can you post which games you consider TL and which you consider YL?

You're right. Brain slip on my part.

That's a nice title but since they're not in the same universe it doesn't actually explain how he'd beat them...FYI I've played against Galacta Knight so it's not like I'm unaware of his powers.

I had to google this. I assume you're refering to DK being playable in Wii punch out? I didn't play that game but I can see from google that it was boxing match. This wouldn't be. DK can use soundwaves created by claps to keep Little Mac at bay, or even his coconut gun. And if he shoots ya, its gonna hurt! Jokes aside his coconuts had an enemy seeking ability. How does Mac even get close? (not sarcasm, I really want your opinion.) Also, unlike in a boxing match Dk has the option to jump. And while he's no mario I'm sure he can jump higher and better than Lil Mac. Also didn't explain how he beats Bowser, Lucas, Robin or any of the Pokemon below him.

Disagree on Robin. I admit some of his evasion and trigger skills i mentioned don't translate but the stuff about counter, vantage, renewal and vengeance DO. Counter, for example, if DK punches Robin hard, he feels half of that back. Not specific but might make him hesitant to get in Robin's face. And keeping foes at bay would be Robin's edge. Vantage is a bit tricker, but I think it would work like Shulk's vision I guess, where he sees it coming and gets the chance to hit first (doesn't guarantee he hits, just that he gets first move.. Renewal would work like in item in an action/adventure game that heals every few minutes. And since Vengeance hits literally almost every time, it translates fine. So once again I see no reason he's not at least mid tier 2. I'd place him below Ike.

Also, do Falcon and the Team star fox get their vehicles? Because that would affect the rankings.
And

 

[Crystanium]

All right, so I thought I was going to be staying over at a family member's house, but that's not the case, so here I am.

Super Sonic

Super Sonic, from my understanding, should just be able to travel at supersonic speed, hence the name, but he can surpass this in his normal form. So what Super Sonic has in his favor is increased durability, Chaos Control, and light speed dash. I can see how Sonic would end up winning anyway, as well as much of the characters on the roster. If, however, Sonic becomes a beam of light when using light speed dash, it would take time for him to defeat Samus.

I know people would disagree with me, but I am under the impression that Samus' wave beam actually travels light speed, at least alone. If the wave beam is an electromagnetic weapon, then it would be traveling at light speed, regardless of what anyone says. Samus' weaponry falls under directed-energy weapons, but with the wave beam stacking onto the rest of her beams, it would likely travel slower than light, though plasma weapons should be able to reach a significant percentage of light speed. See plasma acceleration.

Mewtwo

Psychic is useful for Mewtwo, sure, but if the move is simply the target being thrown into things by telekinesis, then it's not going to do much for Mewtwo. Samus has dealt with ice and plasma attacks and has ice and plasma weapons herself. I honestly don't see Mewtwo as a threat against Samus. Psychic has never been (to my knowledge) demonstrated to mess with internal organs, and if it is possible, no Pokemon I've seen has demonstrated it.

Ganondorf

My philosophy in this kind of discussion is that if the opposing character has never demonstrated the ability to withstand attacks like the kind in this case, then there is no reason to think that character can do so. Sure, I'd like to prove it, but that's kind of difficult when by doing so would be doing my fellow debater's homework. And, it's asking me to prove a negative.

Of course, we could just work with Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, who wields her power beam, light beam, dark beam, and annihilator beam. The annihilator beam would be devastating, as Mark Pacini, director of the Metroid Prime trilogy, stated that the sonic boom (the annihilator beam's missile combo) "distorts time and space".

Rosalina

The wave beam is capable of penetrating some solid objects, as well as transparent and translucent objects. The way I see it, if light, which is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, is passing through, then the wave beam, which is also part of the electromagnetic spectrum, should be able to do so as well.

Pokemon Trainer

I suppose it depends on which Pokemon are being used. Then we can take into consideration their feats and work from there.

Wields Falchion, with a power that protects him from any non-dragon attacks. Very few, if any, of these guys use dragon attacks, making him practically invincible.

Perhaps in the Fire Emblem universe, but could you prove that it works against something like Samus' weaponry? Let me put it another way. In Fire Emblem, was the fact that Marth could not be harmed by non-dragons a statement made by someone in the game(s)? To say no other attack can harm Marth, except dragon attacks, would be a no-limits fallacy. Sure, it may be true in the Fire Emblem universe, but the creators of this series aren't taking into consideration these crossovers. All you could work with is what Marth has not been harmed by in the games and then ask yourself if the character he is facing has similar abilities that he's shown immunity to.

I'd say he starts off only commanding Pokemon, and he can use any non-legendary six, all at once. However, once all Pokemon are KO'd, he gets involved.

Well, we need to know which six Pokemon he currently has.

The only one of the characters you mentioned she could win against is, well, no one. She has no way of defeating Ganon or Marth, Kirby could inhale all her attacks, and Mewtwo is quite powerful, even for Samus. She could potentially defeat Rosalina, but other than her, she ain't goin' nowhere.

Can you state why Ganondorf or Marth, or even Kirby or Mewtwo could win? I'd be interested in knowing why.

Some games, but not all. I analyze every individual that gets into the game. Young Link has games where he isn't Toon, giving him Toon's abilities plus more.

From the Zelda games I've played, Link doesn't have a chance against Samus, regardless of any incarnation.

Goddess power OP.

What does that mean?

Galacta Knight was the strongest in the Kirby universe, though Meta Knight defeated him, making Meta the second strongest being in the Kirby universe. First is Kirby.

I was certain Galacta Knight was the strongest in the galaxy, not the Universe. At which point I could say Samus has traveled to different galaxies and brought peace.

Funny story, Donkey Kong actually tried to do that once. It didn't turn out too well. Little Mac is about moon level.

Here's what's more funny. Little Mac doesn't have "moon level" anything. Knocking out Donkey Kong only equates to knocking out a gorilla, which hey, is strong compared to ordinary humans, but Little Mac isn't dealing with an ordinary human. Say Little Mac's punch was equal to the punch DK delivered. DK would fly kilometers upon impact if he wasn't first obliterated. I very much doubt the size of the moon in Donkey Kong Country Returns is the same mass and diameter as that of the real moon.

 

[IvanQuote]

For the love of god, it was a joke -_-. Sandbag alone should have implied that.

Oops...sorry. I couldn't tell, as I have seen that argument for ROB and arguments for sandbag used seriously on the early days of this thread (something about how it can't legidimately be destroyed and actually enjoys pain via its Melee trophy information, ergo it wins by outliving the opposition.) Though in hindsight, the 9000+ should have tipped me off.

 

[Munomario777]

Super Sonic, from my understanding, should just be able to travel at supersonic speed, hence the name, but he can surpass this in his normal form. So what Super Sonic has in his favor is increased durability, Chaos Control, and light speed dash. I can see how Sonic would end up winning anyway, as well as much of the characters on the roster. If, however, Sonic becomes a beam of light when using light speed dash, it would take time for him to defeat Samus.

If we're judging abilities by their name, then Kirby's Hypernova causes him to turn into an exploding star. Misleading names exist, but canonical statements (such as Super Sonic travelling at the speed of light) take priority. Also, the Light Speed Dash (and Light Speed Attack) is one of normal Sonic's upgrades in Sonic Adventure (and many subsequent games). The Light Speed Dash (and, by extension, the Light Speed Attack) doesn't turn the user into a beam of light. The move simply propels the user forward at the speed of light. There's a difference, just like Sonic running at the speed of sound doesn't turn him into a sound wave.

 

[Crystanium]

If we're judging abilities by their name, then Kirby's Hypernova causes him to turn into an exploding star. Misleading names exist, but canonical statements (such as Super Sonic travelling at the speed of light) take priority. Also, the Light Speed Dash (and Light Speed Attack) is one of normal Sonic's upgrades in Sonic Adventure (and many subsequent games). The Light Speed Dash (and, by extension, the Light Speed Attack) doesn't turn the user into a beam of light. The move simply propels the user forward at the speed of light. There's a difference, just like Sonic running at the speed of sound doesn't turn him into a sound wave.

I presented why I think the wave beam is an electromagnetic weapon. The description for the wave beam is that it fires "wave energy". You can only have mechanical waves or electromagnetic waves. Not only that, but the wave, light, and nova beam all share the same design in the Metroid Prime trilogy. While the wave beam in Metroid Prime fires electrical energy, the light beam fires light, capable of piercing targets. The nova beam's description is that it fires "high-frequency beams" and is also capable of passing through a very durable material in the Metroidverse called Phazite, and is very effective against space pirates who wear Phazite armor.

Light is an electromagnetic wave and "high-frequency" is a range of radio frequency electromagnetic wave, which we call "radio waves". The thermal visor uses the infrared spectrum, the x-ray visor uses the x-ray spectrum, light falls under the visible spectrum, "high-frequency" falls under the radio spectrum. So, as you can see, I have reason to believe what I believe about Samus' weapons.

I know Sonic doesn't transform into a sound wave. Objects with mass can travel at sound, but massless objects must travel at light speed. That includes light, infrared light, ultraviolet light, radio waves, x-rays, gamma rays, &c. I could simply say that is a visual representation of Sonic traveling at light speed, because if we go by visuals alone, then it doesn't matter if Sonic propels at light speed. He sure doesn't look like he's traveling light speed.

 

[Munomario777]

I presented why I think the wave beam is an electromagnetic weapon. The description for the wave beam is that it fires "wave energy". You can only have mechanical waves or electromagnetic waves. Not only that, but the wave, light, and nova beam all share the same design in the Metroid Prime trilogy. While the wave beam in Metroid Prime fires electrical energy, the light beam fires light, capable of piercing targets. The nova beam's description is that it fires "high-frequency beams" and is also capable of passing through a very durable material in the Metroidverse called Phazite, and is very effective against space pirates who wear Phazite armor.

Light is an electromagnetic wave and "high-frequency" is a range of radio frequency electromagnetic wave, which we call "radio waves". The thermal visor uses the infrared spectrum, the x-ray visor uses the x-ray spectrum, light falls under the visible spectrum, "high-frequency" falls under the radio spectrum. So, as you can see, I have reason to believe what I believe about Samus' weapons.

I know Sonic doesn't transform into a sound wave. Objects with mass can travel at sound, but massless objects must travel at light speed. That includes light, infrared light, ultraviolet light, radio waves, x-rays, gamma rays, &c. I could simply say that is a visual representation of Sonic traveling at light speed, because if we go by visuals alone, then it doesn't matter if Sonic propels at light speed. He sure doesn't look like he's traveling light speed.

I was only replying to the part regarding Sonic.

Remember, that level of real-world science isn't the most reliable source here (the planets in Galaxy not being possible IRL that sonicbrawler brought up is a good example of this). If science contradicts lore, the lore wins out, and in this case, it does (although the other way to travel at light speed, infinite energy, could be explained by the Chaos Emeralds, if we did go that route). I agree that the in-game version of the Light Speed Dash is mostly a visual representation of the actual speed. After all, Sonic would be a bit too fast to follow if he actually went light speed in-game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Dryn why wouldn't you be sure about if you'd say >. Mewtwo is clearly more powerful than those others. And psychic powers in general should be more of a treath to Samus than what all other Pokemon can bring.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

All right, so I thought I was going to be staying over at a family member's house, but that's not the case, so here I am.



Super Sonic, from my understanding, should just be able to travel at supersonic speed, hence the name, but he can surpass this in his normal form. So what Super Sonic has in his favor is increased durability, Chaos Control, and light speed dash. I can see how Sonic would end up winning anyway, as well as much of the characters on the roster. If, however, Sonic becomes a beam of light when using light speed dash, it would take time for him to defeat Samus.

I know people would disagree with me, but I am under the impression that Samus' wave beam actually travels light speed, at least alone. If the wave beam is an electromagnetic weapon, then it would be traveling at light speed, regardless of what anyone says. Samus' weaponry falls under directed-energy weapons, but with the wave beam stacking onto the rest of her beams, it would likely travel slower than light, though plasma weapons should be able to reach a significant percentage of light speed. See plasma acceleration.



Psychic is useful for Mewtwo, sure, but if the move is simply the target being thrown into things by telekinesis, then it's not going to do much for Mewtwo. Samus has dealt with ice and plasma attacks and has ice and plasma weapons herself. I honestly don't see Mewtwo as a threat against Samus. Psychic has never been (to my knowledge) demonstrated to mess with internal organs, and if it is possible, no Pokemon I've seen has demonstrated it.



My philosophy in this kind of discussion is that if the opposing character has never demonstrated the ability to withstand attacks like the kind in this case, then there is no reason to think that character can do so. Sure, I'd like to prove it, but that's kind of difficult when by doing so would be doing my fellow debater's homework. And, it's asking me to prove a negative.

Of course, we could just work with Samus from Metroid Prime 2: Echoes, who wields her power beam, light beam, dark beam, and annihilator beam. The annihilator beam would be devastating, as Mark Pacini, director of the Metroid Prime trilogy, stated that the sonic boom (the annihilator beam's missile combo) "distorts time and space".



The wave beam is capable of penetrating some solid objects, as well as transparent and translucent objects. The way I see it, if light, which is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, is passing through, then the wave beam, which is also part of the electromagnetic spectrum, should be able to do so as well.



I suppose it depends on which Pokemon are being used. Then we can take into consideration their feats and work from there.



Perhaps in the Fire Emblem universe, but could you prove that it works against something like Samus' weaponry? Let me put it another way. In Fire Emblem, was the fact that Marth could not be harmed by non-dragons a statement made by someone in the game(s)? To say no other attack can harm Marth, except dragon attacks, would be a no-limits fallacy. Sure, it may be true in the Fire Emblem universe, but the creators of this series aren't taking into consideration these crossovers. All you could work with is what Marth has not been harmed by in the games and then ask yourself if the character he is facing has similar abilities that he's shown immunity to.



Well, we need to know which six Pokemon he currently has.



Can you state why Ganondorf or Marth, or even Kirby or Mewtwo could win? I'd be interested in knowing why.



From the Zelda games I've played, Link doesn't have a chance against Samus, regardless of any incarnation.



What does that mean?



I was certain Galacta Knight was the strongest in the galaxy, not the Universe. At which point I could say Samus has traveled to different galaxies and brought peace.



Here's what's more funny. Little Mac doesn't have "moon level" anything. Knocking out Donkey Kong only equates to knocking out a gorilla, which hey, is strong compared to ordinary humans, but Little Mac isn't dealing with an ordinary human. Say Little Mac's punch was equal to the punch DK delivered. DK would fly kilometers upon impact if he wasn't first obliterated. I very much doubt the size of the moon in Donkey Kong Country Returns is the same mass and diameter as that of the real moon.

The immunity is a power of the sword, not the universe. There is absolutely no reason why it wouldn't carry into other universes.
Marth wouldn't win, but Kirby could win by a method stated below. Ganon would resist all attacks, and Mewtwo could crush her suit using TK.
Ike was granted power by a goddess.
Mac wouldn't win in a fight, but is physically stronger, resisting DK's punches and throwing stronger ones. I believe the moon is the same size, but regardless, knocking anything out of its spatial orbit is a great feat, which Little Mac surpassed.

I've never heard of that before in all the years I've had these debates so I had to google it. So my apologies, he does belong in tier 1. However, the description for the Falchion in the first FE says "Negates damage from non-manakete direct attacks." That means he is a bad match-up for someone like Samus, Pit or Palutena with a lot of projectiles.

Why No legendaries?

I'm assuming okay means you agree.

Yea it's hard to argue she has anything that hurts Ganondorf but I already showed above she can hurt Marth.
And I disagree on Kirby, he can't absorb Wavebuster, flamethrower, Screw attack, speed booster or Power bomb. Additionally if he's in base form that means he doesn't have any way to inflict significant damage on Samus (her suits tough and has a lot of health tanks. He'd need to use a copy essence to hurt her which would simultaneously keep him from absorbing her attacks.
And I actually didn't say should be above Mewtwo, I actually argued she has a good chance. I have no beef with her being below Mewtwo.
And I'm curious what you mean by "potentially" about Rosalina. I'm no sonic_brawler but from all the mario I've played I don't recall having a single item/ability that would let her beat Samus.

I don't disagree but can you post which games you consider TL and which you consider YL?

You're right. Brain slip on my part.

That's a nice title but since they're not in the same universe it doesn't actually explain how he'd beat them...FYI I've played against Galacta Knight so it's not like I'm unaware of his powers.

I had to google this. I assume you're refering to DK being playable in Wii punch out? I didn't play that game but I can see from google that it was boxing match. This wouldn't be. DK can use soundwaves created by claps to keep Little Mac at bay, or even his coconut gun. And if he shoots ya, its gonna hurt! Jokes aside his coconuts had an enemy seeking ability. How does Mac even get close? (not sarcasm, I really want your opinion.) Also, unlike in a boxing match Dk has the option to jump. And while he's no mario I'm sure he can jump higher and better than Lil Mac. Also didn't explain how he beats Bowser, Lucas, Robin or any of the Pokemon below him.

Disagree on Robin. I admit some of his evasion and trigger skills i mentioned don't translate but the stuff about counter, vantage, renewal and vengeance DO. Counter, for example, if DK punches Robin hard, he feels half of that back. Not specific but might make him hesitant to get in Robin's face. And keeping foes at bay would be Robin's edge. Vantage is a bit tricker, but I think it would work like Shulk's vision I guess, where he sees it coming and gets the chance to hit first (doesn't guarantee he hits, just that he gets first move.. Renewal would work like in item in an action/adventure game that heals every few minutes. And since Vengeance hits literally almost every time, it translates fine. So once again I see no reason he's not at least mid tier 2. I'd place him below Ike.

Also, do Falcon and the Team star fox get their vehicles? Because that would affect the rankings.
And

This was previously discussed. Since this is no specific trainer, and there's only one of each legendary, it is likely he doesn't have/can't get any.
Okay about Marth, but Kirby also has a squishy, durable body, and with the Star Rod, he could hurt Samus. If Rosalina is universal like some say she is, she can beat Samus. But if not, Samus would end up victorious.
Toon Link is
The Wind Waker, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Young Link is all of these, as well as Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and Link Between Worlds.
This makes Meta Knight about planetary, as he is stronger than Marx and others. The Dimensional Cape grants space manipulation, which is an OP power. He can also block attacks, and with Galaxia, he can create powerful sword beams and fire tornadoes.
Alrighty then.
Okay.

 

[Munomario777]

Toon Link is
The Wind Waker, Four Swords, Four Swords Adventures, The Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, and Spirit Tracks. Young Link is all of these, as well as Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and Link Between Worlds.

No. Wind Waker, Minish Cap, etc. aren't the same Link. They're different generations/incarnations. Toon Link (the Hero of Wind) in Smash is from The Wind Waker. Young Link (the Hero of Time in child form) is from Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask (since those two canonically have the same Link). Link from Smash 64 and Melee (the Hero of Time in adult form) is also from Ocarina of Time, and Link from Brawl and Smash 4 (the Hero of Twilight) is from Twilight Princess. They're separate entities canonically; thus, they must be separate in this discussion.