Who's Canonically the Strongest Character in Smash?

[kataridragon]

Sandbag is not an ordinary sandbag. I second that motion.

Also omnipotent... Who or what says Ganon is 100% omnipotent. You just threw out a word without explaining anything about Ganondorf or why he is this.

You just defined a word. Nothing else.

Let me continue:
So the gods don't interfere with anything (including the struggle between good and evil) or anybody in the zelda universe. So everybody is omnipotent. Groose is top tier and don't get me started on tingle!

Just because gods don't interfere doesn't mean Ganondorf is omnipotent.

Also you incorrectly quoted a non canon Zelda game.
"It is WRITTEN that only Link can defeat Ganon"..... NO!

 

[Mechonis]

Even if Sandbag is indestructible, you could "beat" him easily. A normal person could so something... take him and throw him into a vat of concrete, wait until it hardens, then drop him off in the middle of an ocean or something. I'd say technically you've won against Sandbag now.

Edit: Or freeze him in carbonite and hang him from a wall as a trophy. Regardless, I'm sure most characters who had to "fight" sandbag would just resort to something like this after finding out that they couldn't destroy him.

 

[KoRLumen]

Even if Sandbag is indestructible, you could "beat" him easily. A normal person could so something... take him and throw him into a vat of concrete, wait until it hardens, then drop him off in the middle of an ocean or something. I'd say technically you've won against Sandbag now.

Edit: Or freeze him in carbonite and hang him from a wall as a trophy. Regardless, I'm sure most characters who had to "fight" sandbag would just resort to something like this after finding out that they couldn't destroy him.

All he would have to do is find the resonant frequency of the material and nudge until the concrete/carbonite breaks apart. Lolololol.

 

[Mechonis]

All he would have to do is find the resonant frequency of the material and nudge until the concrete/carbonite breaks apart. Lolololol.

If he was capable of that, then imagine what he could do to his opponents! Too bad he doesn't really display any sort of fighting skills, only the ability to nudge and not get destroyed. It'd be his worst nightmare to be stuck in something, somewhere, where he can't do what he likes. XD

 

[kataridragon]

Why don't we just claim Sandbag as an honorable mention. No one would claim him as strong, he isn't a fighter at all, but to refute his invulnerability and longevity is difficult. (Despite decent evidence :/)

Lol trap Sandbag in a bouncy house purgatory. Please someone photoshop this! Please include a tear of sadness.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Melee
Sandbag exists for one reason only: to get smashed in the Home-Run Contest. Pound on Sandbag as much as possible in the time allotted, then swing for the fences as you compete for the longest home run of all time. Getting hit doesn't hurt Sandbag at all. As a matter of fact, it loves to see players wind up and let loose.

Brawl
An item that appears in the Home-Run Contest, where the goal is to do lots of damage to Sandbag, then send it flying as far as you can. It also appears in the regular game. If you smash it, a storm of confetti and items will burst out. Sandbag doesn't feel pain, though; in fact, it's happy to be of service.

So he may be able to not feel pain or get hurt, but he can not attack. So maybe strong defense but the zero offense.

Wow, its a game-play mechanic people. Game-play mechanic. It is not canon. Sandbag is a sandbag. A plain ordinary Sandbag. Are you going to argue that there are multiple Sandbags that exist since we can have multiple Sandbags on-screen at the same time? Get real folks

Smash trophies descriptions are probably the purest form of canon for smash.

 

[Prince Longstrok]

PSI is in general much more extreme than only shooting Shadow Balls, manipulating the weather, throwing Pokémons across the room and petrifying a mediocre trainer.

I'm tempted to say Ness here, but I'm just not too sure on Sonic or Ganondorf to really make the verdict.

HAHAHAHA, Im soo weak xD

But its soo true.. what trainer would NOT evolve their pokemon?

 

[kataridragon]

So he may be able to not feel pain or get hurt, but he can not attack. So maybe strong defense but the zero offense.

Smash trophies descriptions are probably the purest form of canon for smash.

Pain and hurt are kinda vague as to what they mean. Pain and hurt are feelings but don't necessarily mean indestructible. Sandbag is shown to have taken damage via a patch in the little Mac trailer which is evidence that he can be damaged albeit he isn't in pain or hurt by it. No where does it say he lives forever or is indestructible.

As for descriptions of Smash canon characters their descriptions can be telling. However when we speak about characters and their canonical abilities we speak outside of smash arenas where everything isn't so fair. Describing sandbags limitations is difficult if you follow the same guidelines as the rest of the cast.

My theory:
Sandbag does take (statistical) damage in the form of percentage just like everyone else in smash. It can be inferred that hurt and pain are just feelings since he does take (statistical) damage in which he is essentially being "hurt" despite his inability to feel pain. Since Sandbag is able to be (statistical) damaged in the form of percentage in his canonical game he therefore can actually be (physical) damaged as seen in the little Mac trailer.

That is confusing. I hope you guys understand this. :/

 

[SuperBrawler]

Also, question: When Sandbag falls off the stage and a new one arrives, is it the old one or a fresh one?

 

[DonkaFjord]

Also, question: When Sandbag falls off the stage and a new one arrives, is it the old one or a fresh one?

I don't think he makes a KO blast plus he just drops down instead of coming back on a spawn point-disk thing. This is probably something we can't be sure about.

Pain and hurt are kinda vague as to what they mean. Pain and hurt are feelings but don't necessarily mean indestructible. Sandbag is shown to have taken damage via a patch in the little Mac trailer which is evidence that he can be damaged albeit he isn't in pain or hurt by it. No where does it say he lives forever or is indestructible.

As for descriptions of Smash canon characters their descriptions can be telling. However when we speak about characters and their canonical abilities we speak outside of smash arenas where everything isn't so fair. Describing sandbags limitations is difficult if you follow the same guidelines as the rest of the cast.

My theory:
Sandbag does take (statistical) damage in the form of percentage just like everyone else in smash. It can be inferred that hurt and pain are just feelings since he does take (statistical) damage in which he is essentially being "hurt" despite his inability to feel pain. Since Sandbag is able to be (statistical) damaged in the form of percentage in his canonical game he therefore can actually be (physical) damaged as seen in the little Mac trailer.

That is confusing. I hope you guys understand this. :/

A newcomer trailer would be questionable in terms of how canon it is (I personally don't think it is canon.) A smash trophy description of a smash original character however is DEFINITE canon. Smash's damage is weird though because it makes you lighter instead of "hurt," but the sandbag does take damage in the percentage sense.

 

[KCCHIEFS27]

Fox

Then Pika

 

[kataridragon]

A newcomer trailer would be questionable in terms of how canon it is (I personally don't think it is canon.) A smash trophy description of a smash original character however is DEFINITE canon. Smash's damage is weird though because it makes you lighter instead of "hurt," but the sandbag does take damage in the percentage sense.

So in a technical sense he is taking damage.

Why wouldn't the trailer work as a nice piece of canon for a smashbros centric character? That's like saying the trailer for dkc tropical freeze where all the kongs are chillin thinking about cake is all a lie and can't be canon. When donkey kong punches the moon is that not canon since it was a cutscene?

The thing about sandbag is that smash is his canon game albeit not little macs. You can argue that the trailerisnt canon for little Mac but to argue that it's not canon for sandbag is a little thin.

What makes the trailer not canon for sandbag? It will be included in the retail game. The animation part that is.

 

[SmasherCat]

Why wouldn't the trailer work as a nice piece of canon for a smashbros centric character? That's like saying the trailer for dkc tropical freeze where all the kongs are chillin thinking about cake is all a lie and can't be canon. When donkey kong punches the moon is that not canon since it was a cutscene?

See it? Hehehe

 

[HammerHappy]

Alright, so basically what I've done is this:

I'm trying to explain to people why not fighting doesn't equal winning the fight while at the same time championing a character that essentially wins by not fighting.
All I have going for me is intent (to kill), and the nudge.

So I'm going to outline this as best I can.

- Sandbag is his own character. There is only one of him, dupes are treated the same as any dupe characters in SSB.
- Sandbag is sentient. He has emotions.
- Sandbag can not be destroyed in the only games he appears in (SSB). These means that is currently canon that the attacks SSB characters use on him do not destroy him. He has no other games to attribute weaknesses to him.
He can be knocked off stages, but ring outs resulting in instant death don't happen in the context of fighting we're operating in.
- Hitting Sandbag does not hurt him. He does not feel pain. He even derives enjoyment from watching people attack him.
- Sandbag can move.
- Sometimes confetti and items come out if you hit him.

So I'm going to say right now that the canon established by the games are the highest canon. Even then, the Little Mac trailer doesn't actually show Sandbag receiving the wound so you can't say it happened off of the patch alone. There can't be any doubt.
Not to mention a minute trailer shouldn't take canon precedent over two entire games. Or make it canon that Little Mac that can deliver a punch that sends Samus into the stratosphere.

So basically what it comes down to is if whether or not people are going to
: Consider threat removal via distance (no requirement of inflicting harm) as a winning the fight rather than threat removal via destruction.

If yes, then Sandbag is the worst character and Sonic can win against the majority of the cast with a blindfold on.

If no, then I'll repeat: Sandbag is an immortal, indestructible entity that can feel no pain. He enjoys the sight of people attacking him. He needs no sleep, no sustenance, and is capable of nudging you at least once in every minute of the day. In the context of this fight, he always has the intent to kill you.

Which means for non-immortals, eventually time/exhaustion/depression/starvation will kill you and Sandbag will win.

For immortals, it means you get to spend eternity fighting/ignoring a Sandbag unless you forfeit. If we're not going to consider threat removal via distance as forfeiting, then that means the fight never ends. It doesn't draw, it's technically going on for time immemorial.

Either way, I'm fine if people just decide to give him an honorable mention.

Also, you should all read that Mr. Game&Watch post.

 

[kataridragon]

I'll concede to an honorable mention. He has several things going for him but only a few against him.

He doesn't win but doesn't really lose either based on technicalities.

We aren't 100% sure on his status quo as far as "hurt" goes. There are a few potential discrepancies.

We also don't know a lot about him outside of his few appearances and description.

He is in a class of his own!

 

[SmasherCat]

But- sandbag still doesn't have real power. Taken from the dictionary, power is:

1. 
   the ability to do something or act in a particular way, esp. as a faculty or quality.
   "the power of speech"
   synonyms:ability, capacity, capability,potential, faculty, competenceMore
   
   
2. 
   the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
   
   The sandbag can't directly influence opponents. He can simply take the hits as they come to him. He has no capacity to do anything, therefore no real power.
   
   If sandbag were to be trapped in say, a cage, he wouldn't be able to escape because he can't act on anything. He can endure hits, sure, but he cannot retaliate in any way. Endurance doesn't equal power. Sandbag falls under the "threat removal via distance" category.

 

[DonkaFjord]

So in a technical sense he is taking damage.

Why wouldn't the trailer work as a nice piece of canon for a smashbros centric character? That's like saying the trailer for dkc tropical freeze where all the kongs are chillin thinking about cake is all a lie and can't be canon. When donkey kong punches the moon is that not canon since it was a cutscene?

The thing about sandbag is that smash is his canon game albeit not little macs. You can argue that the trailerisnt canon for little Mac but to argue that it's not canon for sandbag is a little thin.

What makes the trailer not canon for sandbag? It will be included in the retail game. The animation part that is.

Cutscenes are different than trailers. Trailers are promotional videos that are made for you know... commercial reasons... not to expand the universe or establish story outside what the original product has. The DK trailers focused on cutscenes used in the in-game storyline as well as gameplay- it is echoing the original canon content, not establishing new canon. Cutscenes pertaining to the in game story and narrative are canon.

But- sandbag still doesn't have real power. Taken from the dictionary, power is:

1. 
   the ability to do something or act in a particular way, esp. as a faculty or quality.
   "the power of speech"
   synonyms:ability, capacity, capability,potential, faculty, competenceMore
   
   
2. 
   the capacity or ability to direct or influence the behavior of others or the course of events.
   
   The sandbag can't directly influence opponents. He can simply take the hits as they come to him. He has no capacity to do anything, therefore no real power.
   
   If sandbag were to be trapped in say, a cage, he wouldn't be able to escape because he can't act on anything. He can endure hits, sure, but he cannot retaliate in any way. Endurance doesn't equal power. Sandbag falls under the "threat removal via distance" category.

We are asking for strongest, not most powerful. Strong could either be able to exert a large amount of damage or it could mean the ability to withstand a large amount of damage. It depends on the definition, but being an object that is virtually indestructible means it can withstand a large amount of damage, and thus it is "strong."

I personally agree it is in a totally different class than what the OP originally wanted to discuss.

 

[kataridragon]

So why can't the little Mac trailer also be considered a cutscene? I mean it builds toward a plot albeit shallow plot of violence lol. The trailer builds on the games canon since it introduces a new character. Just saying it does expand the plot and "story" all the way to little Mac getting mad at dear old Sam!

 

[SmasherCat]

Oh shoot, i thought the title said power!

But powerful and strong are synonyms, so depending on how you look at it, those arguments can still make sense.

As fjord said, the trailer is showing a new aspect in ssb. It's not supposed to establish new canon. It uses theatrics to show off the character, theatrics that aren't necessarily supposed to be interpreted as canon.

The DKTF trailer is the canon of the game.

 

[DonkaFjord]

So why can't the little Mac trailer also be considered a cutscene? I mean it builds toward a plot albeit shallow plot of violence lol.

Because it isn't relevant to the overall plot of the game, but if you want to take that route then we also have to assume every other promotional trailer for smash happens in context of the universe and is in fact canon (You can't pick and choose.) This has greater implications than just that one trailer. One example is the first brawl trailer showing that they are capable of seeing the change in graphics as well as other small things like the bandage (Lil mac being able to remove his pink work out suit in less than 2 seconds, kirby being able to open up hammerspace and summon items at will from brawls 2006 trailer, etc.) It just starts becoming a bit messy. (Those were examples I could think of right off the top of my head, I am sure there a re more relevant or comparable instances.)

Oh shoot, i thought the title said power!

But powerful and strong are synonyms, so depending on how you look at it, those arguments can still make sense.

Some synonyms have slight variation on meaning. Cook and bake are synonyms but one is more specific and bake has even more meanings beyond food relation such as ceramics or graphical lighting effects.

 

[KoRLumen]

Because it isn't relevant to the overall plot of the game, but if you want to take that route then we also have to assume every other promotional trailer for smash happens in context of the universe and is in fact canon (You can't pick and choose.) This has greater implications than just that one trailer. One example is the first brawl trailer showing that they are capable of seeing the change in graphics as well as other small things like the bandage (Lil mac being able to remove his pink work out suit in less than 2 seconds, kirby being able to open up hammerspace and summon items at will from brawls 2006 trailer, etc.) It just starts becoming a bit messy. (Those were examples I could think of right off the top of my head, I am sure there a re more relevant or comparable instances.)


Some synonyms have slight variation on meaning. Cook and bake are synonyms but one is more specific and bake has even more meanings beyond food relation such as ceramics or graphical lighting effects.

Heh, and from the Rosalina trailer, the Kirby and Mario universes are apparently the same.

And yeah, there aren't many words that are "true" synonyms. In certain contexts, one word is just better than the other. Hence why you should never trust the Synonyms option in Word if you aren't sure about the complete definition of a given word. Learned that the hard way, I did.

 

[SmasherCat]

Because it isn't relevant to the overall plot of the game, but if you want to take that route then we also have to assume every other promotional trailer for smash happens in context of the universe and is in fact canon (You can't pick and choose.) This has greater implications than just that one trailer. One example is the first brawl trailer showing that they are capable of seeing the change in graphics as well as other small things like the bandage (Lil mac being able to remove his pink work out suit in less than 2 seconds, kirby being able to open up hammerspace and summon items at will from brawls 2006 trailer, etc.) It just starts becoming a bit messy. (Those were examples I could think of right off the top of my head, I am sure there a re more relevant or comparable instances.)


Some synonyms have slight variation on meaning. Cook and bake are synonyms but one is more specific and bake has even more meanings beyond food relation such as ceramics or graphical lighting effects.

Good point! But in this case, power and strength are closely related.

In the rosalina trailer, they were technically in the mario kart universe. That's a completely different discussion of canon

 

[kataridragon]

You see the whole catch on the sandbag is that smash is his canon game. Ok now we've got that. That means that everyone else isn't supported accept sandbag since this is all we have. It's canon to him.

It's the way of the bag. You can either accept that this is his game and his appearances are canon to him or dismiss them. The whole situation is vague. Whether you believe it or not doesn't matter at this point. It's been thoroughly argued on both sides.

I agree it's neither here nor there. You can't accept it nor dismiss it.

Honorable mentions. We can't 100% claim his invulnerability or longevity. We can only assume that he has the current potential as well as faults.

He is a mighty bag.... I guess.

 

[JediLink]

No. Wishful thinking from a Sonic enthusiast. I don't care what Sega put in its games, he isn't that powerful. Especially when Ganon is ALL POWERFUL. That's means he could turn Sonic to jelly by thinking about it

Ganondorf is powerful, sure, but he is far from omnipotent. He doesn't even have the full Triforce - only a third of it, and seven Chaos Emeralds trumps one piece of the Triforce.

 

[SmasherCat]

Ganondorf is powerful, sure, but he is far from omnipotent. He doesn't even have the full Triforce - only a third of it, and seven Chaos Emeralds trumps one piece of the Triforce.

How can you be sure they could trump the triforce of power? Ganondorf enslaved hyrule and was a match for link, who has defeated larger enemies than eggman. Surely even a third of the triforce shouldn't be underestimated...

 

[kataridragon]

Now including Sandbag!
That's my bag baby! YEAH!

S:
Rosalina

A+:
Sonic
Marth
Mewtwo

A:
Samus
Ganondorf
Pit
Ness

Honorable Mention:
Sandbag

B:
Link
Zelda
Megaman
Kirby
Meta knight
Lucario
Bowser
Pikachu

C:
Little Max
Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Wario
C.falcon
Dedede
DK
Snake

C:
wii fit trainer
Diddy
Peach
Villager
Olimar
ROB
Ice climber
G&W

I decided to stick him right after the A rank so people can see he is up their as an interesting candidate w/o overshadowing what we actually know about other characters.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Edited for the Sandbag!

S:
Rosalina

A+:
Sonic
Marth
Mewtwo

A:
Samus
Ganondorf
Pit
Ness

Honorable Mention:
Sandbag

B:
Link
Zelda
Megaman
Kirby
Meta knight
Lucario
Bowser
Pikachu

C:
Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Wario
C.falcon
Dedede
DK
Snake

C:
wii fit trainer
Diddy
Peach
Villager
Olimar
ROB
Ice climber
G&W

I decided to stick him right after the A rank so people can see he is up their as an interesting candidate w/o overshadowing what we actually know about other characters.

Why is ROB so low?

Also we don't have a good comparison between zelda and sonic in terms of power so deciding which one is more powerful is hard to say.

 

[SmasherCat]

Now including Sandbag!
That's my bag baby! YEAH!

S:
Rosalina

A+:
Sonic
Marth
Mewtwo

A:
Samus
Ganondorf
Pit
Ness

Honorable Mention:
Sandbag

B:
Link
Zelda
Megaman
Kirby
Meta knight
Lucario
Bowser
Pikachu

C:
Mario
Luigi
Yoshi
Fox
Falco
Wolf
Wario
C.falcon
Dedede
DK
Snake

C:
wii fit trainer
Diddy
Peach
Villager
Olimar
ROB
Ice climber
G&W

I decided to stick him right after the A rank so people can see he is up their as an interesting candidate w/o overshadowing what we actually know about other characters.

Rob is just a toy really. Even with the laser, he's outclassed by other laser-slingers.

Now snake, why is he that low?? He could detonate half the cast with a few explosives! Not to mention that karate.

 

[kataridragon]

Why is ROB so low?

Also we don't have a good comparison between zelda and sonic in terms of power so deciding which one is more powerful is hard to say.

ROBs canon is a toy.....

Sonic has godlike powers through the chaos emeralds. Invulnerability, touch damage, super speed, and teleportation. Zelda can't really match that in her canon. I personally grouped her with link assuming she has similar powers based on links... Simple enough but feel free to elaborate.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Rob is just a toy really. Even with the laser, he's outclassed by other laser-slingers.

Now snake, why is he that low?? He could detonate half the cast with a few explosives! Not to mention that karate.

But he actually exists. Half his canon is our reality, so you could technically pull the plug and kill everyone on the list but him. (Everyone else is data in our reality/half his canon.) His other canon is that he is a high tech robot from gyromite or whatever.

 

[kataridragon]

But he actually exists. Half his canon is our reality, so you could technically pull the plug and kill everyone on the list but him. (Everyone else is data in our reality/half his canon.) His other canon is that he is a high tech robot from gyromite or whatever.

Ehhh. But can he pull the plug? Your thinking a little to hard. This is a bit much. But it is thinking outside the box

My tier list is comprised of what I would call a god scale.

Roughly:
S: Godlike
Powers that grant the ability to create and destroy as if you were a god.

A: Demi Godlike:
Powers of godlike proportion but limited. Invulnerability, time stop, instant kill, slight reality bending.

B: Blessed:
Powers that are fairly limited but include magic and or enchanted weapons that bestow very limited powers.

C: Super Human:
Abilities that are above stand humans but don't approach magic or god gifted abilities.

D: Human
Standard stuff we can or could do.

F: Non Sentient:
Static Item.

If anything ROB should be moved down

 

[SmasherCat]

Yeah, saying that he is strong because he has a physical form is a bit of a stretch. In fact, he still wouldn't be strong, he would just be immune to the weakness of being trapped in a game xD

 

[DonkaFjord]

Ehhh. But can he pull the plug? Your thinking a little to hard. This is a bit much. But it is thinking outside the box.

But at the same time you argue he is a toy over his gyromite canon, so I am basing it off our reality where he is a toy. That makes everyone else data and just video game characters. He also saved the video game market off the crash, so really they owe a lot to him. He is very much so god status to them.

 

[kataridragon]

But at the same time you argue he is a toy over his gyromite canon, so I am basing it off our reality where he is a toy. That makes everyone else data and just video game characters. He also saved the video game market off the crash, so really they owe a lot to him. He is very much so god status to them.

Haha true! Let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

Also. My ranks aren't specific in order of who beats who just as a general location of power. Sure snake could take mario I bet but not link despite his future weapons.

 

[SmasherCat]

I guess that's true...

If he is untouchable in his true form, then he must be stronger than sandbag!

 

[DonkaFjord]

Haha true! Let's not get ahead of ourselves here!

I am grasping for straws yes, but at the same time this whole argument (as in this thread) is fairly ridiculous. For one their canon sizes are much more varied than smash makes them appear to be. We also don't have any move that can compare the strengths of the characters between worlds. Some characters work in a rock/paper/scissors scenario so if they were pit against different characters, than their outcomes might be different. However, I still stand for R.O.B. being the strongest.

 

[SmasherCat]

As for snake, he could still be the strongest even though rob is real and that beats the others out. RPGs are real, as are c4s and mines. A rob toy would be blown up by anyone wielding a weapon like this. Doesn't that mean snake's means of combat are valid in-game and in a real life scenario?

Since explosives beat out everything else, snake could be the strongest.

 

[kataridragon]

Simple question for you guys? Can your defeat Mewtwo? In a one on one fight can you win against him?

Your ideas are interesting but not much more than that. Your thinking too hard.

 

[kataridragon]

Yeah.....No! *Rolls eye* going to bed. Seriously y'all be trippin.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Simple question for you guys? Can your defeat Mewtwo? In a one on one fight can you win against him?

Your ideas are interesting but not much more than that. Your thinking too hard.

Mewtwo has been defeated. Think of how many players just chuck a master ball at him in the first place. Think of how many players do own him. It technically is still cannon because you can own every pokemon in the games.

I'm not thinking too much. It makes sense if you call him a toy, then the other characters are just video game characters. There are a lot of implications with his...special case.