"Who needs a spike?" Lucario's Ledgeguarding Finds

[ShippoFoxFire]

As we all know, edgeguarding is a vital part of the brawl metagame, and since I didn't see any info about it, I have checked and tested out moves that work on people on the ledge. I haven't seen this kind of data yet, and wanted to share my finds, so we don't aimlessly FSMASH at a ledge when it really wouldn't help.


Characters that can be hit by Lucario's FSMASH on the ledge of...
-Characters that have now grabbed the ledge, and are done with their invincibility frames.

Final Desintation
Mario
Luigi
Bowser
Yoshi
Donkey Kong
*Ice Climbers*
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Pikachu
Ivysaur
Charizard
Squirtle
Jigglypuff
Lucas
Ness
Mr. Game & Watch

-Now this is worth noting because you can Fsmash at the ledge to cover a LOT of options, it covers Jump, Get Up, Staying Still, and sometimes drop down. If they would roll up, you can use Fsmash's IASA frames to put them into a utilt trap.

Characters that can be hit by Lucario's DTILT on the ledge of...


Final Desintation
Mario
Luigi
Peach
Bowser
Wario
Yoshi
Diddy Kong
Donkey Kong
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
R.O.B.
*Ice Climbers*
Pit
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Meta Knight
King Dedede
Olimar
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Falco
Fox
Pikachu
Marth
Ike
Ness
Jigglypuff
Lucario
Mr. Game & Watch
Snake
Sonic
Ivysaur
*Charizard*
Squirtle

-Everyone in the cast can be hit by the dtilt. I put this here to clarify that everyone can be hit by DTILT on the ledge, *however something I noted was Charizard took longer to hit for some reason, could have been me seeing things*

Characters that can be hit by AURA SPHERE(same stock) on the ledge of...

Final Destination:
King Dedede: ~90
Mario: ~80
Donkey Kong: ~<10
Pikachu: PHANTOMS at 40%, gets more guaranteed up to 69, ~70 is definite.
Mr. Game & Watch: SHIMMIES!!! At about 110 it will phantom, any higher will have higher chances of hitting until definite 120(or it could be aura sphere bouncing)
Meta Knight: At 40, he will shimmy up, you can hit him then, will phantom the lower at 60, at 70, will hit all time
Falco: 146-152 will phantom, hits at 153
Charizard: ~9 or always
Squirtle: at 106 phantoms often. Guaranteed hit at 120
Ivysaur: phantoms at 90, during the ear movement down. hits at 100
Yoshi: Always
IC’s: around 125, only popo will go flying, wasn't able to test higher percent.

Lucario: 150
Ness: Always
Bowser: ~94
Toon Link: will phantom his low animation at 160, hit everything else. 168 hits all
Olimar: Always
Jigglypuff: 70
Lucas: Always
Luigi: phantom’s some hits at 120, mostly hits though, about 130 hits all.

Characters that can be GRABBED off the ledge of...

Final Destination
Charizard
Donkey Kong(Dash Grab)
Olimar
Ness
Lucas
Pikachu

now remember, this is all during the characters "pull up" animation on the ledge, where it looks like they are trying to pull up(not the actual ledge getup, but the shimmy animation)


Characters that can NOT be hit by Lucario's FSMASH on the ledge of...

Final Destination
Peach
Wario
Diddy Kong
Link
Zelda
Shiek
Ganondorf
Toon Link
R.O.B.
Pit
Samus
Zero Suit Samus
Kirby
Captain Falcon
Wolf
Falco
Fox
Lucario
Ike
Marth
Snake
Sonic
These characters while on the ledge of Final Destination do NOT get hit, my theory is that their hurtbox is too low for the FSMASH

Characters that do NOT get hit by Aura Sphere(same stock) on the ledge of...

Final Desintation:
Diddy Kong
Link
Samus
Kirby
Marth:
Zelda
Shiek
Pit
Ike
Peach
Ganondorf
Wolf
Sonic
Wario
R.O.B
Zero Suit Samus


----------------------------------(Other stages is a work in progress)-------------------


Now other things I have found out through testing was how to get people to the ledge, here are some notes I found out


1. Lucario's 3 hit jab on the entire cast sends everyone from the 2 end spawn points to right above the ledge, in which they would grab if they didn't do anything.


2. These characters who get hit from Jabs 1 OR 2 and then fall off the ledge without hitting jab 3, do NOT auto grab the ledge, as they are still in hitstun when they pass it, thus you can edgegaurd them by dairing thier 2nd jump or footstooling or whatever you would want to do to punish.
Shiek
Falco
Wolf
Fox
Squirtle
Captain Falcon


********

Now Why I highlighted Ice Climber was how special they were when testing


If you space the FSMASH correctly, you will ONLY hit POPO off the ledge.


If you space the DTILT correctly, you will only his NANA off the ledge.


Both of these can be used to mix up how the Ice Climber will recover and scramble him up, leading to a dead ice climber team, or a lone sopo, with a dair here and a footstool there.
********


This data is still a work in progress and will be editing this with the other stages with wierd edges such as Yoshi's, Lylat Cruise, and Brinstar; just to name a few.


CREDITS:
MythTrainerInfinity for helping me come up with the idea to do this in the first place.
Rookie for being the test dummy/sand bag/scrub in the testing for aurasphere.
DarkEnergy for finding out the grab shinanigans stuff and making videos of it, helping me out with the finds as well.

 

[iRJi]

Lol. Look at Shippo being useful. Good stuff mang. =]

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Thanks for looking this up.

The FSmash thing is going to be pretty darn brutal against people over 100%.

We eventually need to compare some ledge frame attack data to determine how safe some of this stuff is...

We also might want to consider our possible follow-ups after DTilting someone at the edge, but separating the ICs is really important in that MU.

Being able to repeatedly pressure with strutterstep FSmashes may be better than I thought...

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

The Dtilt sends them USUALLY at a downward angle when they are on the ledge from what I was looking at, however what part you hit with may also change the trajectory.

That might help when coming up with punishes.

BTW: Thanks RJ.

 

[Kitamerby]

Ftilt angled down hits everyone on the ledge from the right spacing iirc, but it's so unsafe it's not even worth trying. :x

 

[718_ROOKI3]

-Everyone in the cast can be hit by the dtilt. I put this here to clarify that everyone can be hit by DTILT on the ledge, *however something I noted was Charizard took longer to hit for some reason, could have been me seeing things*

Im pretty sure Charizard took longer to get hit because the character animations when holding the ledge. Like when characters hold the ledge they have animations where they move up and down or like they shimmy in place and **** like that, those lil' animations do make a difference in whether you can reach there hurt box or not, i did this same testing with Fox's Usmash so thats prolly your answer Shippo.

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Im pretty sure Charizard took longer to get hit because the character animations when holding the ledge. Like when characters hold the ledge they have animations where they move up and down or like they shimmy in place and **** like that, those lil' animations do make a difference in whether you can reach there hurt box or not, i did this same testing with Fox's Usmash so thats prolly your answer Shippo.

I think Charizard was the only one who showed that characteristic, so one MIGHT miss the dtilt on charizard since he shimmies.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Shippo, the reason why your fsmash connects is because those characters heads and or bodies sometimes poke over the ledge. If you put MK on the ledge and watch his dangle animation you'll see why.

1 sec

k so shippo is working on AS stuff and i told him you can grab a few chars off the ledge. I wrote up something on this back in like 09. DDD can abuse it much more obvi, but lucy can too as long as their heads are poking above the ledge and into his grab box.

Take note, however, lucy and yes even DDD must be next to the opponent on the ledge in order to grab. Lucys Utilt, angled ftilt should also work on the characters listed above.

 

[phi1ny3]

Also take note that Pika can release the ledge early, but loses invincibility earlier.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HM9es3gb6_Y

small vid showing some examples of what you can do. READ DESCRIPTION!

Yup. Big heads, small arms this is what happens. DDD clips are to show 1. DDDs grab box is lower. 2. his fsmash also connects to chars at the ledge [no IF] 3. Ftilt spam on meta is to prove that when meta 'ducks' during his dangling animation i cannot hit him with ftilts hitbox. This also applies to lucy and DDD in that they cannot grab say Ness off the ledge unless Ness pushes himself up during the animation into Lucys/DDD Grab box. Unlike Lucy though, DDDs grab box goes low enough to grab characters Lucy cannot, Lucy can only grab a couple of characters off and for DK Lucy requires the help of a slant on YI Brawl.

Take note that both DDD and Lucy MUST BE NEXT TO THE LEDGE TO GRAB THE OPPONENT OFF.

Other characters can do this if their grab box is low enough. Characters that they might be able to grab off vary depending on opponents dangly animation and the grabee's grab box. This includes but is not limited to; Standing, Pivot, Dash grab, or special grabs such as Boozer klaw, Ganon side+b. Tether grabs are harder to time or possibly do not work at all iirc.

Lucy section starts at 1:20.

tbh, your much safer AS/Utilting/Fsmashing vs. grabbing/ftilt/dtilt

If you look at the bowser clips, fsmash doesnt work at all on YI brawl, and only works on BF during a certain frame of the dangly animation......

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

Edited in the aurasphere stuff

 

[culexus・wau]

The title is a lie.

We have spikes

3 in fact.

We should have a section on grab releases near the edge, grounded and aerial.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So we can grab Ness, Lucas, and Olimar while they are on the ledge... That's hilarious.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

true however its very dangerous to do so, they still have IF and can just jump up with an aerial if you try to grab them. Again let me stress that utilt/fsmash/AS is much safer

in the time ive known about this i've only been able to pluck a random olimar/pikachu off the ledge once on DDD

Lucario can also grab Charizard off the ledge and Lucario can also grab DK off the ledge ONLY ON YI BRAWL, i also forgot to try force palm. I'll try that next

 

[Tony T]

Possibilities that I almost couldn't imagine well that gives me a few ideas.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

small update.

You can grab DK on the ledge anywhere. Just use the Dash Grab and it'll connect. Another cool thing, FC AS will hit the whole cast if you stand in a specific spot on Frigate Transformation 2[it wont work if a tether is being used obvi, wait for the tethered character to snap to the ledge first]. Baby AS depends on the body of the opponent and how the opponent is grabbing the ledge. Its guaranteed FC at any % but only on these 2 spots on Frigate. Basically its the incline going into the stage. Stand near the peak of the incline to level off the AS. You want to marry the AS to the ground, this way it hits the hands of the person grabbing the ledge. This is very safe to use imho because lucario is far enough from the ledge he wont get punished no.1 No.2 he can follow up easy if they jump or get onto the platform you can punish with anything you want if you get the read off.

imma delete the old one and put this one up. It pretty much covers how to use AS. Baby AS and different levels of AS that ARE NOT CHARGED have to be properly TIMED and SPACED so that they'll hit the opponent during the dangling animation. You'll def see what i mean in the vid.

Grab follow ups; I did a dthrow, fair to footstool on lucas and i'd probably use a similar footstool type combo because footstools are hella gay off the ledge. I did dthrow, 3 fair strings. Fthrow, fair. Uthrow, nair, fair. Personally i like dthrowing in this situation if they're at low %. High % go with fthrow. Note these arent true combos obvi just ideas.


also FP doesnt work

 

[iDeo]

I've grabbed DK and Dedede of the edge, but i usually find it better to just f-smash them. I do appreciate to know what characters i can f-smash edge guard with so this is some pretty good stuff.

AS works wonders on the big characters holding the edge to. it's best to experiment with the AS on different stages as well, like ones with inclines like Delfino or PS1. Usually helps me in matches so thought I'd toss in a suggestion.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

delfino rly doesnt have very many ledges on it not including shine gate and the intermittent transformation

 

[hichez50]

Why didn't you just put the characters that can be hit with x attack. That all we care about.

 

[D. Disciple]

Cause you need to learn which stages they also get hit on cause they're not build the same after all. The more you learn.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

like u cant hit them with AS at places like picto and YI brawl thanks to the slant, Fsmash prolly wont work either

this is due to the AS sphere being a very straight firing projectile with not much curve to the baby spheres, lucys fsmash has dead space under his arms......

look at the hit boxes for urself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTaboNQmyfg&feature=related


0:49 shows theres like no hitboxes near lucys lower body/feet during his fsmash animation











k here some vids of these ideas in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCizM-Siq_Y

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpJqaXngdkg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk_RRjdle4Q

put in some of my fav music since my recorder was being hella gay and stopping on me [this causes desynch in music as a result]

 

[hichez50]

Cause you need to learn which stages they also get hit on cause they're not build the same after all. The more you learn.

*ignore post

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

I've been away for a while, but I expect to try out more awkward stages such as Brinstar/PictoChat/Lylat, if anyone wants to help it will be MOST appreciated.

 

[Lucian]

I know that Brainstar can be a little akward for Lucario to manuver in, it's also not very AS friendly. I like brainstar because you can recover through the stage so you have a defence agaisent edge grabing, the string thimgs at the edge increases the duration your FSmash =)

 

[A New England Winter]

I like this, keep this going along :]