who is a good secondary for a ic main

[Rubyiris]

My friend who mains Ics is trying to find a secondary/counter pick character to deal with characters such as Marth, and Peach.

 

[Teczer0]

Fox?

10foxes

 

[#HBC | Mac]

fox is a good secondary for any character, even fox.

 

[Kyu Puff]

Sheik, Fox, Marth

Sheik ***** Peach, Marth, Samus, Luigi, Doc, and even helps in random match-ups like Link. She covers every single poor match-up for IC. I would play her if I could.

Fox mainly does well against Peach, Marth, Luigi, and Jiggs (and Doc somewhat) but lacks in the Samus match-up.

Marth is the best counter for Peach, and also helps out the Samus and Luigi match-ups (and can do well vs Doc and Jiggs if you need it), and Marth dittos if you're into that kind of thing.

You probably want Sheik.

 

[Teczer0]

Sheik, Fox, Marth

Sheik ***** Peach, Marth, Samus, Luigi, Doc, and even helps in random match-ups like Link. She covers every single poor match-up for IC. I would play her if I could.

Fox mainly does well against Peach, Marth, Luigi, and Jiggs (and Doc somewhat) but lacks in the Samus match-up.

Marth is the best counter for Peach, and also helps out the Samus and Luigi match-ups (and can do well vs Doc and Jiggs if you need it), and Marth dittos if you're into that kind of thing.

You probably want Sheik.

Fox does... bad can't **** samus?.... ummm how?

Fox can **** doc.

Fox can **** melee.

So yea.

You want to play fox.

 

[Kyu Puff]

He doesn't do bad vs Samus, but it's closer than Sheik/Marth vs Samus? Obviously he's better at it than ICs.

Doc mains also claim Sheik/Marth/Falcon are his worst match-ups.

 

[Teczer0]

Oh ok...

I'm not sure who ***** her more so *shrugs*

And yea Doc's worst match up is probably sheik or falcon.

I'd go with fox though.

He is good on virtually every stage and does good vs virtually every character.

 

[Kyu Puff]

He is good on virtually every stage and does good vs virtually every character.

Actually I forgot about that -- you might consider Fox because, aside from his match-ups, he's good on almost every counterpick (you won't have to worry about banning pokefloats).

 

[Teczer0]

Do what Chu does and secondary everyone.

That includes single climbers.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik or Fox.

I think Sheik is better for ICs though.

The vast majority of characters benefit more from having Fox secondary I think... ICs would be one of the exceptions.

 

[Wobbles]

I'll just reaffirm that Sheik is a good backup for the ICs.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I sort of have a Marth and a Fox for back-up, although I only ever use them in doubles or when I know that my ICs won't work. In retrospect, I really wish that I didn't drop Sheik, even though I find her boring to use.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is amazing how dare you find her boring as a character.

You just sort of have to accept the hilarity of being able to walk forward and press A and have that combination (with sporadic use of the purple button, jump button, and trigger buttons) defeat the vast majority of characters.

You don't play Sheik because she's fun you play her to laugh at how hilariously overpowered she is.

 

[Finch]

If you think sheik is boring then use fox. They both beat marth, peach and samus, which are the only matchups that are bad enough to warrant a secondary imo.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I do use Fox, although I still go ICs on Marth since I have a ton of experience in that match-up, and I generally do okay against Samus with ICs for some reason as long as I can resist the urge to sit in my shield and not do anything.

 

[Vts]

god teczero i love you. i want ur kids.....or kid :D

but really sheik/fox/marth are best since they counter our counters, namely peach and samus but other also.

 

[Binx]

I basically play all the top 4 characters, but Sheik is easily the easiest to learn, and probably the best as an IC counter pick. I am personally better with Fox though.

 

[PB&J]

use nana as your secondary..any body else would be fox since icy's requires fast movements and you will be use to jumping faster than others..sheik is good but she is boring but fox will **** anyone but nana

 

[Dogysamich]

Fox can **** doc.

Doc can **** fox just as easy.

Doc mains also claim Sheik/Marth/Falcon are his worst match-ups.

And yea Doc's worst match up is probably sheik or falcon.

On paper, doc's worst matchup is marth, but all 3 do well enough. If doc is a problem for you, pick any one of those 3 that also covers your other bad matchups. If you're looking for a character to beat doc specifically, I would say suggest marth.

 

[Binx]

I personally find Sheik has the easiest time beating Doc, you just needle spam cause it goes through pills and all your aerials outprioritize his, careful when he down throws you though, don't jump into the fair =)

 

[PB&J]

listen to doggy hes good against sheik plus doc can chaingrab that chick..fox can camp him if he gets annoyed

 

[Teczer0]

Doc can **** fox just as easy.

Yea but half the cast could probably do 0-death or 0-a lot of dmg combos.

It doesn't mean Fox loses to them.

Doc can beat fox if fox makes mistakes or doesn't know what he is doing vs doc.

Otherwise I'm pretty sure fox isn't going to lose.

I dunno that much about doc so for his worst match up I'll just take your word for it.

 

[`EX]

use nana as your secondary..any body else would be fox since icy's requires fast movements and you will be use to jumping faster than others..sheik is good but she is boring but fox will **** anyone but nana

dude i main nana =p

i posted this thread on rubys account because i hadn't made a new one with my new gamer name.
thanks to everyone for the advise. II'm gonna try all three and see with one i have the bast feel for i used to main sheik a while back so it will probably be her that i chose. but thanks alot. =]

 

[Rubyiris]

Just going to throw this out there:

'EX has the most trouble against Fox, Marth, Peach, and sadly enough Zelda.

Also yeah, he mains Nana.

 

[Binx]

I have a lot of trouble with Zelda too, partly because I treat her like Zelda when I should be treating her like Marth. Zelda is very dangerous she has a lot of range and power, and we don't give her enough credit vs ICs. Sounds like Sheik is the answer to all of those characters unless he wants to do dittos, in which case Marth might have better match ups overall, he won't have any bad match ups, Marth goes from advantage down to even, but fox goes from a slight disadvantage to even.

For Zelda you should be able to win with ICs but Marth and Sheik, and Fox destroy her.

 

[Rubyiris]

To be honest I have a harder time dealing with Ic with Fox than I do with Zelda. Lol.

 

[Binx]

As an add on to my last post, ICs should be able to beat Fox as well, its not a good match up, but it isn't like Marth or Peach, the better player should win the majority of the time.

 

[S.D]

Pick anything that beats Marth or Peach.

Marth, Falcon and Sheik are all good.

 

[platiepoos]

Sheik definitely dominates the Samus matchup, In fact, she's generally accepted as Samus' worst matchup. Problem is I don't really ENJOY playing any top tiers. Would Jiggs work as a good IC's second, I kinda like her style. I would play Kirby, but he's.......so.......bad.

 

[Binx]

Jiggs is sort of a campy character, but if you are patient and space well she is pretty good, she has poor match ups with Marth and Peach, our biggest counters, but it isn't as bad.

 

[platiepoos]

*moan* I just saw Mango get absolutely ***** as Jiggs against M2K's Marth. Why does that gay swordsman have to be the WORST matchup for every character I try to play? Mango seemed to do well against M2K's fox, so there must be a pretty big bridge in matchup difficulty between Jiggs-Fox and Jiggs-Marth. But enough of that, this is about Ice Climbers. How about C. Falcon or Dr. Mario?

 

[Circa]

Well...I guess that'd really go more for what you're looking for as far as playability is concerned. Doc tends to be more of a character that requires patience and outwitting your opponent, whereas Falcon is generally going to be a more aggressive playstyle and lots of comboing. Or so I can get from memory...I'm not big into either character, to be honest. x_x

If you really want to look into it all, however, Falcon and Doc are both rather lively threads and have a lot of info for you to collect from.

And as far as overall match-ups go, I'm pretty sure that Falcon will be your better bet against Marth and Peach in general. Although Peach is still an annoying little...grrrr. -.-

 

[Binx]

Well...I guess that'd really go more for what you're looking for as far as playability is concerned. Doc tends to be more of a character that requires patience and outwitting your opponent, whereas Falcon is generally going to be a more aggressive playstyle and lots of comboing. Or so I can get from memory...I'm not big into either character, to be honest. x_x

If you really want to look into it all, however, Falcon and Doc are both rather lively threads and have a lot of info for you to collect from.

And as far as overall match-ups go, I'm pretty sure that Falcon will be your better bet against Marth and Peach in general. Although Peach is still an annoying little...grrrr. -.-

I'm going to go ahead and blast away a common misconception right here, Mario, Doc, Pichu, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Roy, DK, Puff, Samus, Pikachu, Game and Watch, Bowser, Luigi, Mew2, and everyone else I am not thinking of right now that isn't named Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Marth, have defensive styles for a reason.

It's because their offense lacks in a significant way, even Falcon doesn't really have the priority to approach the 4 characters I just mentioned, but he sort of makes up for it in speed at least. High level smash play is all about remaining safe and getting in unexpected hits and using the momentum from those hits to kill the other player. Each of those 4 characters have VASTLY differing play styles and are all amazing in the right hands.

Any character that isn't them has a harder time getting inside, Ice Climbers are fast but unfortunately their movement is telegraphed by a loud, easily recognizable sound, and they don't have a very good range so people have more time to react, thats why its important to trick people, fortunately Ice Climbers have a really good punishment game, and can combo fairly well vs most characters, the only thing they really don't have is good off the edge pressure, which makes edgeguarding difficult. Ice Climbers are also extra good defensively, beyond the norm because they have 2 shields, which make it hard to L cancel against them, they have a defense against slow throws, because one climber can smash the grabber in the middle of them, sometimes you can even have one climber shield grab while the other climber is being thrown.

The key to playing Ice Climbers effectively is convincing your opponent that it's safe to approach you then punish them for their chosen action.

For tl:dr's - Fox, Marth, Sheik, and Falco are too good, if you need a secondary you should consider them first, if you simply don't like their playstyle or you just don't enjoy playing using those characters (which is understandable, and the reason I main ICs) then just pic a secondary you enjoy playing, if certain match ups are still too hard then just learn to play them better, thats really the only advice I can give you.

@ Plat - Mango beat M2K's Marth, Fox, and Sheik using exclusively JIgglypuff at the last big tournament they both attended, if you are good enough you can get by a lot of match ups regardless of character.

 

[Circa]

I'm going to go ahead and blast away a common misconception right here, Mario, Doc, Pichu, Kirby, Ice Climbers, Roy, DK, Puff, Samus, Pikachu, Game and Watch, Bowser, Luigi, Mew2, and everyone else I am not thinking of right now that isn't named Fox, Falco, Sheik, or Marth, have defensive styles for a reason.

Oh god nooo...I do realize this. Trust me...I really realize it. I was basically just saying that between the two options as to what would be better for him to use as a secondary against them between Doc and Falcon, it would generally be Falcon. Chances are, Doc will probably have a better defensive game, but Falcon's defense is still decent. Plus, as long as you keep your offensive game switched up enough, it can really pull through a more even match up. And as far as I can tell, an average Falcon usually has more ways to kill someone than an average Doc.

Also, as far as a Peach game goes...Peach is generally one of Doc's harder match-ups, whereas Falcon vs Peach is really just more like annoying for the Falcon player because of her miraculous recovery. In that sense, even if you can't get rid of the top tier hinderances, you can at least get rid of an IC's worst match-up against something under top tier (for those who generally don't like using a top tier, that is).

 

[AzN_Lep]

platiepoos last time M2K and Mango played, M2K had to switch to Fox cuz Mango ***** his Marth. 'Course that was over a year ago now.

 

[platiepoos]

I don't know what matched I watched, what tournament it was, or what date, and I could give you a link if I find it again. But throughout the entire match, Jiggs just couldn't get in. Of course, difficulties can be overcome using any character. Does peach have any bad matchups that aren't Fox, Falco, Sheik or Marth?
Or Peach? -_- Someone told me Samus was a pretty good Peach counter, but I haven't looked for anything to verify it yet. And if Ice Climbers does at least moderately well against Sheik, they could be a pretty good pair.

 

[Finch]

As an add on to my last post, ICs should be able to beat Fox as well, its not a good match up, but it isn't like Marth or Peach, the better player should win the majority of the time.

lol clearly you haven't played colbol. I think this is generally true for most foxes, but that kid is riduculous against ICs.

 

[Binx]

I've played Silent Wolf. I stand by the fact that Fox is an Ice Climber counter, but if you play solid enough you should be able to make in winnable. I was just saying its not like Marth or Peach where if they know what they are doing you almost can't win.

 

[Binx]

Peach is very countered by Marth, Fox, and Sheik. I believe she might also be countered by Ganon, but I'm not 100% on that, she has a slight advantage over samus (you can nair her missiles and samus' normally great CC game becomes very dangerous vs peach's downsmash)

Sheik and Ice Climbers is even at best and ridiculously hard at worst, most Sheik's don't really know how to fight against Ice Climbers, and if you are good at predicting jumps you can punish Sheik fairly well with running up smashes if she short hops, and running up airs if she full hops. Her shield pressure game is too good, if she has even moderately good spacing you can't really shield grab her at all. This is one of the few matches you shouldn't shield often during.

If the Sheik knows the match up though, and has access to platforms she can shut you out, with decent prediction on her part she can needle camp from platforms and get you to jump to punish her, she can then run off the platform and hit you with spaced attacks, the entire time safe from grabs. It puts you in a position where she is up and you have to fake her into a jump then hit her of it it, the problem being that in that situation she has more control than you do, so its harder, the rewards for hitting with a uair aren't that good either until she is at high enough percent for you to safely make it up on the platform with her.

The one saving grace though is that if you do finally manage any sort of grab, Sheik can be chain thrown to around 60% pretty easily, even with only one climber.