HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
TheGerm invented Link
-
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Who invented melee characters?
- Thread starter Kully
- Start date
I don't quite get this trend in this thread that goes like ''no new generation player invented anything, it's all thanks to old schoolers''. It's like saying the metagame didn't evolve in the past 5-7 years or something. Even last year's metagame seems old to me.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Mike G was the original Peach, but it was Heimie who gave birth to him
Armada definitely perfected her though
Armada definitely perfected her though
phish-it
Smash Champion
Sakurai invented all characters.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Sakurai is actually Miyamoto in disguise.
Doctor Pink
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 80
I invented bad Ganondorf play.
D
Deleted member
Guest
I invented in the worst C.Falcon in Texas.
Deathconsciousness
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2013
- Messages
- 826
This thread makes me want to die.
rjgbadger
Banned via Warnings
no one mentions KoreanDJ for the Fox 
D
Deleted member
Guest
ex dee
Kully
Smash Cadet
Doctor Pink
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 80
Ken, Isai, Wombo Combo! Am I old-school melee yet?
lol@Wombo Combo being old school
Massive post inbound!
Inventing characters is kind of a misnomer. Fact is, every player that gets attention and plays a character usually has some trick they add that no one else uses. Every player has a different origin base set of skills and it is extremely difficult and rare to get past those. I recently noted the differences between the Axe/Armada Young Links as an example - they play completely differently because they're working from a different base set of skills, but both use the skillset YL has well.
Specific character breakthroughs tend to be caused by players who draw the most video attention and often show up as a part of the explanation for unexpected top placings. Players rarely raise their overall skill baseline that quickly, after all, so usually there is another factor in these rises that suggests someone "figured something out." Beyond that, Top Players almost always have something unique that they hone that is exceptional for the time above and beyond a high skill baseline. Those are the breakthroughs that often become common in the next round of meta revision. Often in the early days these things happen simultaneously. Falco was simultaneously built up in many ways by Sultan of Samitude and DA Dave, then again by PC Chris and Bombsoldier, then again by Forward and others. You have to separate those with a high level of skill from those who specifically utilize a character's abilities - I would posit that in many ways Isai just had a really high level of skill and did very little to develop Falcon as a character beyond that. He revealed things about Falcon, yes, but other players who were less skilled at the time often revealed more about what Falcon offered specific to the character.
If you want to follow what the evolution of a character looked like in the early days, here's my best summary of Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff waaaaaaay back started with Zulu in 2003, who beat the consensus champ of the era Recipherus but never traveled after that, and AOB, who was one of the first people ever to post videos online and I believe coined the "wall of pain" concept after Zulu caused Recipherus to complain loudly about how stupid a character was who only had one move (bair). AOB did a bit of the skill games so six months later he put together a combo video of links into rests that blew people's minds, which itself built on a combo video that Tetsuya from Japan had put out with some very limited rest combos like utilt-rest. AOB's video also included Jigglypuff pound-rising from the bottom of Temple to the top, something I'd figured out and showed him at the past tournament we'd been to that somehow caused a crazy amount of hype. From there, KillaOR got a 2nd place at an MLG with Puff and took the reins for awhile with a more typical for the time EC-combo-based game. I still remember the despair of a lot of Fox/Falco mains at the time who just fell apart against Space Animal Slayers. At FC3 in 2005, both he and I flamed out early and we both thought it was the death knell for the character, but 9 months later, King honed the combo game to a new level, took a 4th-place MLG finish, and hung around at that just-below-championship-level tier for a long time. The next major change was on the teams side; about six months after that Jeff and I put the team-oriented rest combos on display that are obvious now, but were simply not used to great effect then, and rode them to several money finishes over teams with clearly superior players like King/PC Chris at the MLG championship and regional events. Things were stable for awhile after that, with both King and I pulling off some regional tournament wins/places, until Mango came out with the breakthrough at a national. Unfortunately, that's shortly after I quit, so I wasn't watching closely enough to know specifics about what he added to the Puff game to take it there.
Changes are very slow, and one player is rarely responsible for "inventing" a character.
Massive post inbound!
Inventing characters is kind of a misnomer. Fact is, every player that gets attention and plays a character usually has some trick they add that no one else uses. Every player has a different origin base set of skills and it is extremely difficult and rare to get past those. I recently noted the differences between the Axe/Armada Young Links as an example - they play completely differently because they're working from a different base set of skills, but both use the skillset YL has well.
Specific character breakthroughs tend to be caused by players who draw the most video attention and often show up as a part of the explanation for unexpected top placings. Players rarely raise their overall skill baseline that quickly, after all, so usually there is another factor in these rises that suggests someone "figured something out." Beyond that, Top Players almost always have something unique that they hone that is exceptional for the time above and beyond a high skill baseline. Those are the breakthroughs that often become common in the next round of meta revision. Often in the early days these things happen simultaneously. Falco was simultaneously built up in many ways by Sultan of Samitude and DA Dave, then again by PC Chris and Bombsoldier, then again by Forward and others. You have to separate those with a high level of skill from those who specifically utilize a character's abilities - I would posit that in many ways Isai just had a really high level of skill and did very little to develop Falcon as a character beyond that. He revealed things about Falcon, yes, but other players who were less skilled at the time often revealed more about what Falcon offered specific to the character.
If you want to follow what the evolution of a character looked like in the early days, here's my best summary of Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff waaaaaaay back started with Zulu in 2003, who beat the consensus champ of the era Recipherus but never traveled after that, and AOB, who was one of the first people ever to post videos online and I believe coined the "wall of pain" concept after Zulu caused Recipherus to complain loudly about how stupid a character was who only had one move (bair). AOB did a bit of the skill games so six months later he put together a combo video of links into rests that blew people's minds, which itself built on a combo video that Tetsuya from Japan had put out with some very limited rest combos like utilt-rest. AOB's video also included Jigglypuff pound-rising from the bottom of Temple to the top, something I'd figured out and showed him at the past tournament we'd been to that somehow caused a crazy amount of hype. From there, KillaOR got a 2nd place at an MLG with Puff and took the reins for awhile with a more typical for the time EC-combo-based game. I still remember the despair of a lot of Fox/Falco mains at the time who just fell apart against Space Animal Slayers. At FC3 in 2005, both he and I flamed out early and we both thought it was the death knell for the character, but 9 months later, King honed the combo game to a new level, took a 4th-place MLG finish, and hung around at that just-below-championship-level tier for a long time. The next major change was on the teams side; about six months after that Jeff and I put the team-oriented rest combos on display that are obvious now, but were simply not used to great effect then, and rode them to several money finishes over teams with clearly superior players like King/PC Chris at the MLG championship and regional events. Things were stable for awhile after that, with both King and I pulling off some regional tournament wins/places, until Mango came out with the breakthrough at a national. Unfortunately, that's shortly after I quit, so I wasn't watching closely enough to know specifics about what he added to the Puff game to take it there.
Changes are very slow, and one player is rarely responsible for "inventing" a character.
wizards64
Smash Rookie
Scorpion Master polished Mario but before Mango came in the character was already invented by people like Boss and GreenMario.
john!
Smash Hero
i don't think any character has fundamentally changed drastically enough since 2006 (or maybe earlier) to be considered "re-invented". today's falcos are more precise bombsoldiers, our falcons are smoother isais, our ganons are eddies with better spacing, and our sheiks are less gay drephens. they were just there first and got the chance to identify the characters' basic playstyles
I have to disagree. In saying that our Falcos are simply more precise bombsoldiers, you are disregarding all of the metagame's advancement made by current players. PP evolved Falco's throw game, realized that fair was a combo extender against floaties, amongst other things. Zhu invented WD off bair, amongst many other things. Our Falcons are smoother Isais? Hax's implementation of ledgehop reverse waveland regrab as an edge stall to improve Falcon's from edge game and use of single hit nairs as resets on platforms would beg to differ.
A character's basic playstyle was invented by the game's developers, not the oldschool players. To say that an old player invented the characters' basic playstyles is to say the characters design means nothing. The characters were made to be played the way they are played. Only nuances and new forms of pressure, edgeguarding, punishing, and movement can be described as "inventing" a character's metagame, and current player's have developed the metagame far more than the old players ever did. Ken combo is a notable exception, though I would argue that Ken is kind of an outlier as he developed the Marth metagame heavily by shifting the focus to largely aerial approaches and combos as opposed to grounded tilts and smashes. Even today, however, people like M2K and PewPewU are reinventing Marth on entire new levels.
john!
Smash Hero
modern players were all building off of a metagame that already existed. they're making great improvements for sure... but we still regard gutenberg as the inventor of the printing press, and even though we've gotten WAY better at making printing presses since gutenberg's time, the basic fundamentals haven't really changed (until computers, at least)
and i don't think you can really say that the developers invented a character's playstyle. these are the same guys who thought it was a good idea to switch from sheik to zelda to finish off your opponents.
and i don't think you can really say that the developers invented a character's playstyle. these are the same guys who thought it was a good idea to switch from sheik to zelda to finish off your opponents.
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
Ya, Wombo Combo def. isn't old school lOL.
DoH
meleeitonme.tumblr.com
Armada entirely reinvented Peach with the combo game and going off stage.
Doctor Pink
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- May 15, 2013
- Messages
- 80
I am aware that wombo combo isn't old-school, I was merely making a mockery of the other posts in this thread. While I agree that no ONE player invented the meta-game behind any of the characters, some made great contributions to the general growth of the game.
Isai is probably one of the weirdest Falcons in falcon history, and IMO even if a lot of falcons are starting to pick up some of his old tricks, none of them today really play like him cuz he was a goddamn FREAK (and looked absolutely amazing doing so).
Lot of darkrain clones nowadays though IMO, I'll give you that
D1
Banned via Administration
^This.. I pretty much just watched him, and helped innovate the character and further pursue his metagame... There have been MANY great Yoshi's before me... I just have cool CV's..(sorta) xD
Fumi, Gabe, Yonesuke <--- (I bet very few of you remember/know him) are simple examples.
Don't forget Svampen and Karamity! Me and Shiri learned so much about Yoshi through those guys.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
^Oh I didn't, i was simply naming some that I think most of the community may have forgotten... though I'm sure noone recalls Karamity either... man.. good times.
SMOE
Smash Rookie
Sakurai invented all of the characters.
EDIT: Ninja'd. It's a little odd someone else thought the same thing when they saw this thread.
EDIT: Ninja'd. It's a little odd someone else thought the same thing when they saw this thread.
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
Aight u rite
Mr P
Smash Ace
Mikael the Japanese peach player hasn't been mentioned here but i think he deserves a lot of credit because that guy was phenomonal back in the day, he was probably the best peach player in the world until Armada really upped his game in 08/09. He had some really strong fundamentals and in a lot of ways is similar to Armada in the way he played, watch this video from 2005 and you'll see what im talking about.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXrd_EJ7cSg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXrd_EJ7cSg
TobiasXK
Smash Ace
so we're supposed to just show off by saying the oldest tags for the oldest players we can think of right
nat pagle
Smash Ace
Only one I know is Chu dat's IC's.
2006 and before is just way too long ago.
2006 and before is just way too long ago.
Fox - PC chris or chillendude
Falco - Bombsolider or PC chris
Puff - King
Peach - cort? or wife
Marth - ken
Falcon - Isai
Link - Azen or thegerm
Pikachu - chudat or axe (I think at a time chudat played pika but i could be wrong on this)
Yoshi - Fumi
Sheik - Azen, KDJ or Captain Jack
Ganon - Tipman
Ice Climbers - mewtwo
Samus - hugs?
dr mario - bob$?
Falco - Bombsolider or PC chris
Puff - King
Peach - cort? or wife
Marth - ken
Falcon - Isai
Link - Azen or thegerm
Pikachu - chudat or axe (I think at a time chudat played pika but i could be wrong on this)
Yoshi - Fumi
Sheik - Azen, KDJ or Captain Jack
Ganon - Tipman
Ice Climbers - mewtwo
Samus - hugs?
dr mario - bob$?