When is it Okay to go for a kamikaze kill?

[Bing]

So Ive been Maining marth for awhile now, and I have a combo that is sorta like a ken combo but not really(Its like a nair-fair-bair to dair) but generally I cant recover due to the height im at when the combo is done(yes i am trying to fix this)

But this leads me to my question of, when is it okay to get the kamikaze ko?

I was thinking like, if your a stock up, or at high percentage, but i'd like some other people's opinions.

Thanks

 

[DBSammy]

Yeah if you're a stock up then yeah it's all right.

 

[Nintendude]

The best times to do it are when it is your opponent's last stock, you have a large stock advantage, or you are at really high percent. If the game's roughly even you are better off ending the combo prematurely so you can recover, and then try to capitalize on the edgeguard opportunity instead.

 

[Mooo]

when the combo is really, really ****.
but i think the best is really at high percentage, you can widen your stock advantage by recovering early and edgeguarding (especially with marth) before the combo ends, high percentage however will get you killed early in the next stock, so it's less of a loss in a way.

 

[Stratford]

Marth's sword position after the dair makes for a badass "Game!" pose if it's their last stock.

 

[Jonas]

If you're at like 150% and your opponent's at 30% on the same stock, it can actually be advantageous to go for the kill no matter what, since it evens the score.

 

[Life]

Suicide KOs are okay when:
1. You have a stock lead. a 2-1 stock lead is better than a 3-2 stock lead, no? Your opponent has to be twice as effective as you to defeat you if you're up 2-1 but only 1.5x as effective when you're up 3-2 (but for a longer period of time, granted)
2. It's tied at last stock and you KNOW that they'll die before you do. Since your combo ends in a spike, this is virtually guaranteed.
3. You're at KO percents already--you're only losing the equivalent of 1-2 attacks anyway, and you're exchanging those for an early gimp. (Bad idea if you're down stock, however--see #1. And if your opponent is also at high percents, you don't really gain much but you have a lot to lose from screwing up--in that case, recover and edgeguard.)

 

[Pi]

as long as you land it it's always ok

 

[crush]

When your spider senses are tingling

 

[Kite91]

When you KNOW you can land the hit.

 

[Bing]

When your spider senses are tingling

My Spidey senses are ALWAYS tingling

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

When you have the stock advantage, and no dramatic percent advantage (say 10-80) or if the stocks are tied and you either have the percent disadvantage, or if you find it hard to land a kill otherwise.

 

[vadgama]

Hmmm in a friendly match, it's not okay to purposely do a suicide kill. It's a lot cooler/pro if you can kill them and afterwards do an awesome recovery. Or if they're at 30% and 150% it shows others, the person you're playing against, and even yourself how much higher your skillz are in comparison to you're opponent if you can come back without doing some lame kamikaze crap.

If you're in a tournament then all that crap I said goes out the window =/

 

[ILM]

Suicide kills are most useful when trying to close the gap. If I'm at 150, you're at 30, and we're tied for stock, it'd be wise to get the gimp even if it sacrifices the stock, as at least then we're evened out, and I've recovered a gap of 120%.

As far as when I have the stock lead, I try to avoid this. If I'm not in death percents, I'll do anything to preserve my stock over yours. IMO it becomes difficult to keep momentum when I've killed myself, compared to getting the edge guard.

 

[stelzig]

Hmmm in a friendly match, it's not okay to purposely do a suicide kill. It's a lot cooler/pro if you can kill them and afterwards do an awesome recovery. Or if they're at 30% and 150% it shows others, the person you're playing against, and even yourself how much higher your skillz are in comparison to you're opponent if you can come back without doing some lame kamikaze crap.

If you're in a tournament then all that crap I said goes out the window =/

What i'm thinking the exact opposite way. If you can finish off a long combo/edgeguard in a friendly by doing an unexpected kamikaze attack then by all means go for it, even if it isn't beneficial... So yeah the window is a lot more open in friendlies if you ask me, lol.

 

[crush]

Edge cancel marth's spike off the cloud on yoshis

 

[victra♥]

usually when either

1. you're in a stock lead. (usually a significant one in a tournament setting, if you're a little more concerned and cautious.)

2. you're high in percent and they have a relatively fresh stock

3. the kill would look sexy as eff

 

[vadgama]

What i'm thinking the exact opposite way. If you can finish off a long combo/edgeguard in a friendly by doing an unexpected kamikaze attack then by all means go for it, even if it isn't beneficial... So yeah the window is a lot more open in friendlies if you ask me, lol.

idk man kamikaze is just lame in my opinion. It's like you just gave up a stock because you couldn't win otherwise. It's a ponce move.

 

[gm jack]

idk man kamikaze is just lame in my opinion. It's like you just gave up a stock because you couldn't win otherwise. It's a ponce move.

Sometimes trading stocks is a good thing. If they are on their last stock for instance, or you are at a much higher percent.

 

[ryuu seika]

I play Kirby. So long as I'm not as stock down and my percentage isn't massively lower, Swallowcides seem like a good option.

 

[vadgama]

Sometimes trading stocks is a good thing. If they are on their last stock for instance, or you are at a much higher percent.

Sometimes...sure...If you're so doubtful in your skillz that, in your mind, the only way you have a chance of winning the match is to do a suicide kill. Then by all means, go for it.

This is more of a personal opinion topic...(Whether or not you should or should not be kamikaze'ing)

 

[gm jack]

So, crouch cancelling is bad because you are taking a hit in order to deal more damage in return, and true "skillz" means you should never get hit.

If you are at 180%, and they have a fresh stock, and you get an option to take you both to a new fresh stock, why would you not take it (other than you being on your last stock)? Also, if you have the option to end a game by going really far off stage to swipe a fox out off an Up b on their last stock while you have one spare, why not do it?

 

[vadgama]

So, crouch cancelling is bad because you are taking a hit in order to deal more damage in return, and true "skillz" means you should never get hit.

Way to take things off topic. I never said anything about crouch cancelling, although it is bad to do against certain matchups. Idk where you got you're definition of skillz because I never defined "skillz". You're definition sounds more like cheating than skillz.

If you are at 180%, and they have a fresh stock, and you get an option to take you both to a new fresh stock, why would you not take it (other than you being on your last stock)? Also, if you have the option to end a game by going really far off stage to swipe a fox out off an Up b on their last stock while you have one spare, why not do it?

It's up to you what you do in those situations. I was just making my opinionated statement by saying that it's far better to kill you're opponent without having to kill yourself in the process. No matter the situation.

 

[gm jack]

Way to take things off topic. I never said anything about crouch cancelling, although it is bad to do against certain matchups. Idk where you got you're definition of skillz because I never defined "skillz". You're definition sounds more like cheating than skillz.



It's up to you what you do in those situations. I was just making my opinionated statement by saying that it's far better to kill you're opponent without having to kill yourself in the process. No matter the situation.

Obviously, if you can survive, you are stupid to go for a suicide kill. I believe this thread is about when you have a choice of both dying or both living, when do you take both death.

 

[Beat!]

Random moral principles and competitive sports/gaming do not match very well.

 

[vadgama]

It's not a random moral principle. I'd rather watch a video of a guy who won a fight at 180% and the other guy with a fresh stock, where he came back, not from doing a suicide kill, but from a method where he didn't kill himself in the process. Such as mindgames, tactics/strategy, prediction...

 

[Mooo]

This will turn into a "hungrybox has a gay playstyle"-ish debate. It's not about morality, it's about efficiency. It's like saying that there should not be a keeper in soccer because "I'd rather see the defense doing a great job, such as mindgames, tactics/strategy, prediction"
If something works, do it. Otherwise you are not being competitive, you are being foolish.
And topic related, stockleads and percent disadvantages justify a suicide kill is what i would say.

 

[vadgama]

This will turn into a "hungrybox has a gay playstyle"-ish debate. It's not about morality, it's about efficiency. It's like saying that there should not be a keeper in soccer because "I'd rather see the defense doing a great job, such as mindgames, tactics/strategy, prediction"
If something works, do it. Otherwise you are not being competitive, you are being foolish.
And topic related, stockleads and percent disadvantages justify a suicide kill is what i would say.

To each his own.

 

[Frozener]

I agree the arguments against suicide kills are pretty weak. If trading stocks will put you a full stock ahead or even up the stocks when you are far behind, then go for it. Just because you kill yourself doesn't mean the setup took no skill. I do this all the time, but mostly when the opponent is on the last stock. Plus if I want to knee -> full hop falcon punch kamikaze offstage who's gonna blame me lol.

 

[Sephy95]

Repeating what everyone said is pointless so I'm not gonna say how stock lead is key blah blah blah. Although if your combo has an opening somewhere, your opponent could turn it around on you. Then again, if someone gets comboed, they're pretty much done. Reaction time won't allow counterattacks...

 

[Superspright]

I do whatever is necessary to win. If I'm at 180+ there is a slim chance on their fresh stock (with fresh attacks) are going to NOT kill me. I'd rather take them out with me and come back fresh than try to out space them and land a whole series of improbable hits.

 

[Beat!]

It's not a random moral principle. I'd rather watch a video of a guy who won a fight at 180% and the other guy with a fresh stock, where he came back, not from doing a suicide kill, but from a method where he didn't kill himself in the process. Such as mindgames, tactics/strategy, prediction...

Competitive gaming is not about what you "would rather watch". If you don't like watching someone trade stocks to increase their chances of winning, then that's too bad.

Claiming that suicide kills don't require strategy/perception is just plain ignorant.

 

[vadgama]

Competitive gaming is not about what you "would rather watch". If you don't like watching someone trade stocks to increase their chances of winning, then that's too bad.

It is when the majority of it gets posted on youtube.

Claiming that suicide kills don't require strategy/perception is just plain ignorant.

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. Kirby swallowing people up and fast falling to his death for a suicide kill takes no strategy/perception. Along with many other characters such as DK, who just has to grab someone.

 

[Pengie]

Because DK has such an easy time getting grabs right? Also, if you get swallow killed by Kirby you deserve to lose.

 

[Beat!]

It is when the majority of it gets posted on youtube.

What? No, it isn't. No one is forcing you to watch. Just because people watch sports on TV/live doesn't mean that the players have to take into consideration what the crowd wants to see.

That is the stupidest thing I've heard in a while. Kirby swallowing people up and fast falling to his death for a suicide kill takes no strategy/perception. Along with many other characters such as DK, who just has to grab someone.

"Just has to grab someone"? It's not like it's unavoidable. I can think of two scenarios:

A: The opponent walked into the swallow/grab like an idiot. If this was the case, then the opponent certainly deserved to die.
B: The Kirby/DK made the opponent make a decision where they could swallow/grab him.

Scenario B involves strategy/perception/etc to a high degree.

 

[Bing]

Well I'd just like to step in and say that the version of a Suicide Kill IM talking about is just a Marth combo of the ledge to spike and not being able to recover... so you guys are sort of getting off topic, but have fun anyways...

Btw Beatstick, your quote makes me lol

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jEUivOvY74

 

[Bing]

haha aww **** I love Darkrain. So ****.

 

[Frozener]

Lol I was going to link to that same vid but s2j beat me too it. If that isn't quality entertainment, I don't know what is...

 

[Hydro_Smasher]

I think suicide kills are pretty much always worth is as long as your having fun and can pull it off well.