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When I discovered the tier list...

ZutoChokw

Smash Rookie
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
6
A few months ago, I got Brawl. I saw the new character roster, I was so excited. I practiced some verses with my brother, and played a few matches with my friends. Some of my favorite characters at the time were Wario, and Mr. Game and Watch. I won a lot of matches, and felt great about it. After a few weeks, I found the SmashWiki. Its a useful site if you've never seen it, but anyway... I been on the wiki for only 3 days, and I find the tier list!

Thats was pretty cool, Wario at 7th and Mr. Game and Watch at 12th. Top tier characters! But then I started thinking... Is the reason I'm winning because I use top tier characters? Is it skill or tier position? Tell me if you can relate at all to this story.

By the way, I use characters like Ness, Mario, Yoshi, and Ganondorf. Its a good challenge to play with low tiers. I still use Mr. Game and Watch though, and I picked up on Toon Link.
 

Wretched

Dankness of Heart
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
4,166
Location
New Mexico
When started i mained the triforce (for unrelated reasons)
but the sad thing is I won because of ganon's tech chase.
 

milistisia2

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 11, 2010
Messages
82
Location
esam2gud
heh i didn't know of the name of tier lists, but i knew pikachu was broken in 64... and when i first heard of brawl i decided i was maining meta knight because he was my favorite character in nearly any video game... but after about a month of practicing 1v1's as meta knight against random lvl 9 cpus i noticed how broken he was... then i was like ok so my next fave is snake... turns out hes OP too... finally my third choice was bowser who i mained for a while until finding the tier list and deciding that pikachu is god tier if marth didn't exist... hehe silly thing the tier list is; i dont think we should even have public tier lists so that we can be more creative.
 

PD4FR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
631
I think this might belong in SSB4 Discussion, but whatever.

I main Ganondorf, and I still beat my friends, so skill is obviously important. However, don't listen to the people who say that only the skill of the players matters; the character you are makes a difference, minor or not, too.

I'm glad to see you have embraced the dark lord, as have I. :p
 
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
What pierce said. And additionally, even if you were winning by picking higher tiers and it mattered, congrats-you have chosen not to actively handicap yourself through character choice, unlike many people who main low tiers, DK, etc.
 

-Ran

Smash Master
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
3,198
Location
Baton Rouge
I wrote on this subject before, so I'm just copy and pasting. =D

Character Selection - Counter Picking
Stage Selection - Avoidance of traps and gimmicks
The First Stock - Setting the Tempo with an early lead.
Edge Guarding - Denying your opponent the ability to get back on stage.
Recovering - The ability to return to the stage without incurring damage.
Punishment/Risk - Dishing out damage while being safe.
Taking a Stock - Either through brute force or a ‘gimp’.
Space Control - The ability to deny area.
Neutrality+ - The ability to return to a neutral or positive posture.
Defense - Maintaining the lead.
Offense - Building damage through the recognizing of strings.

That's Brawl in a nutshell as a game. You can learn how to succeed at those facets of the game. Character selection no doubt skews the learning process. There are substantial learning curves in the game when you compare the various tiers of players to each other. Essentially how characters perform at the various areas of the game will dictate the level of success that they are going to see in tournament and personal play. Brawl isn't an overtly difficult game to get the basics of your character of choice down. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to realize that Snake's Tilts are -really- good, and that you want to recover as high as possible with him; more so, it is fairly evident that the best way to approach with numerous characters is with their forward airs, and so forth. Truthfully, when it comes to the schism of how the game is played by novices and pros, it is a matter of fundamentals.

The game drastically changes when you consistently power shield attacks, consistently recover at the optimal rate for each character, and punishing attacks. Suddenly overpowering strategies such as projectile spam no longer are relevant, aside from biding time. Due to these differences, a novice player will hold Ike in high regard due to his ability to dish out kills easily. Unfortunately for Ike, there is a large window of punishment after one of his moves, yet most players are incapable of finding the block button. Due to this, Ike becomes a dramatically better character choice in novice play. The same could be said down the list, Falco becomes a much better character when you are properly using his chain grab to spike, buffered dacus attacks, lagless lasers, and so forth. Due to these differences in play, it's hard for novice players to accept tier lists as having merit in their normal play, or they flat out refuse to accept them as a reality.

Chiefly in novice play, players are able to fight each other on just the merits of their individual understanding of the fundamentals of the game. Simply being able to rely on the defensive options inherent in all characters [though some are more blessed than others: Falco's amazing spot dodge] is enough at that level. The last time I went to an anime convention, I actually played every match with nothing but Mario. I three stocked essentially everyone there, but more importantly due to how well I was succeeding at the game I had many players claiming that I was using a top tier character in the game. To them, it felt that Mario was the best because I was a vastly better player. Perception is key, but they lacked the understanding as to why I was performing better than them which was a disparity in individual skill level.

Once players begin to understand the fundamentals of their characters, the tier list becomes actively important for your individual success. The moment the Falco player in your group of friends begins to use a Chain grab against you, your character selection choices drop due to how incredibly powerful the move is. Literally a third of the cast is removed as a viable option, and the bulk of the others yield 40% or greater damage a stock to Falco. Let's say that you have enjoyed playing Link up until this point with your friends. Unfortunately for Link, Falco is able to chain grab him quiet easily, and put him into a position where one grab can honestly lead to death off the side of the stage. Suddenly your enjoyment level and perceived skill drops tremendously in your friend group. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to walk forwards and do down-throws, which is why I'm using Falco as an example. In fact, the 'grab characters' [Dedede, Falco, Pikachu, Ice Climbers, and Olimar] shape the tier list more than most characters. It isn't hard to get a grab in Brawl and due to that, these characters dramatically change the landscape of the competitive field due to how they are ability to shutdown characters completely. Most characters when you look at the Tier list and wonder why they are positioned low can simply be answered by looking at the match ups that they have against the grab based characters.

Long story short, if no one branches out beyond the basic fundamentals, tiers aren't too important. It is a matter of the mastery of the fundamentals, but once you expand to learning your character and become aware of the options of your opponent everything changes.
 

Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
Wins are wins, and losses are losses. There is no way to objectively separate "player skill" from "character potential" because those two variables can never be isolated. Even playing various characters doesn't provide a control value because a certain degree of "skill" is character-specific. So in short, don't worry about it.
 

Psyco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Mt. Freeze
I had been playing Brawl for almost a year. I mained MK and seconded Wolf because I really liked them in both their games. But then I came across the tier list and found out MK was at the top. At first I thought it was cool, but after seeing some people using him for "A easy win" (Yes, I know this is only a few select people) I became really upset and just stopped using MK for a while. Now he is just one of my secondaries and I focus on Lucario because; 1. He's my favorite Pokemon and 2. I love how he gets stronger with more damage. I can take advantage of the situation.
I'm still confused with the tier list and how much it actually affects skill in high level play, but I can only hope it's mainly player skill, not just character skill.
 

PD4FR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
631
I'm still confused with the tier list and how much it actually affects skill in high level play, but I can only hope it's mainly player skill, not just character skill.
As I said before, the player's skill does matter a lot, but so does the matchup. Therefore, the characters make a difference, for without them, there would be no matchup.
 

Psyco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Mt. Freeze
As I said before, the player's skill does matter a lot, but so does the matchup. Therefore, the characters make a difference, for without them, there would be no matchup.
Well, yes match-ups are necessary.
 

Psyco

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
354
Location
Mt. Freeze
Therefore, they matter.

I don't understand why some people still say that the player is all that matters.
That's not what I'm trying to say. In my opinion it's 90% player skill, 10% match-up that determines skill. But again, this is just my opinion.
 

PD4FR

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
631
That's a fair percentage, but I don't think one percentage suffices for all the possible matchups in Brawl.

For example, skill matters more in a 60/40 matchup than in a 100/0 matchup, Ice Climbers vs. Ganondorf for example. The matchup obviously makes more of a difference in IC vs. Ganon, so it clearly is not the same ratio of player skill to matchup in both matches.

In short, some matches may be mostly based on the player's skill, but some have matchup as a large part of the ratio, such as Ganon vs. IC.
 
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