When do you think the Sm4sh backroom will be established, if at all?

[thehard]

Now that Apex is over, I've actually seen more people than usual speak out in support of custom moves whenever the topic comes up, which is a good sign I guess.

I think it's always been this way, but apathy prevails.

I just have a really strong desire to force people to try out customs, Miis, and certain stages right now. It feels like the best possible time. At least get them EXPOSURE (I mean I'm confident all of those but the most borderline stages will become mainstays anyway).

I feel like most of the thinkers, movers and shakers on here are in agreement anyway? Let's get the push going... so we can make sure no one ever uses APEX rulesets ever again, or better yet, so we can set the standard FOR the next APEX.

Just brainstorming major points for the social group/front room here:

KJ64 - Wuhu - Skyloft all seem to be the last remaining "used in some places, banned in majors, a lot of people are fond of them" stages (with varying degrees of legality ofc). There are a few more outliers but the loss of them doesn't matter that much to me personally. Pokemon Stadium 2 is an in-between. Round up videos or personal accounts of why these stages are potentially not viable in tournaments; innocent until proven guilty, and all that. If insufficient data is collected then these should be legalized for the time being. Also further publicize ParanoidDrone's stage research threads, give reasons why legal stages are as they are, why those banned are banned, etc.

Customs and Miis should also be considered innocent until proven guilty. Who knows about the distant future (I'm positive) but let's get them OUT THERE and standardized for the time being (Argue this with me if you must). Include pro-custom articles/big posts (Thinkaman's and AA's come to mind), include a link to the Custom Move Project. I would say include anti-custom articles/big posts too but there aren't any. Rule to make sure all custom sets are labeled by the numbers of the moves e.g. 1323?

Serious discussion about FLSS, what it is, why it's good, why it's flawed, why current stage selection method is flawed, why no stages are actually neutral, why it doesn't make sense for stages to be legal game 2 and 3 but not 1, etc.

Stock counts and timer counts (customs could force these to be changed)

Why Equipment is staying banned, why Diddy will never be banned, and why Sirlin is the bestest ever.

Anything else? Time limit/ban on coaching? Sudden death rules? An OP post to explain competitive philosophy (was it T0MMY that wrote a good one early on)?

 

[Gunla]

-post-

Just a general reminder to not double post, instead, please use the edit function.

As of right now, however, regarding rulesets, I think the big issue that's on a lot of our minds is the custom dilemma. Certain stages here and there are going to be changed in legality (Arena Ferox on 3DS, ones that thehard listed above for Wii U), and they're not really as big of a hurdle than the Mii and customs issue. Equipment, of course, is a much different case and it's likely staying banned.

In addition, for customs, I'll beat a broken record and remind people that the Official Custom Moveset Project exists and it's the best effort I have seen by far. If we're wanting to look at some sort of standard/recommended list for it to place in a preliminary ruleset, it should be there.

 

[Sinister Slush]

On one hand having the S4BR would mean getting stuff done at a bit faster rate depending if they work on everything compared to the last couple things slowing down to a crawl when Brawl was already on its last legs.

But drawback being people still complaining about the whole government thing and not being able to post on what goes on back there, but honestly, especially today compared to 3-6 years ago, last thing we need in the social media crap/reddit is multiple threads tweets etc. talking about stuff we're discussing that the non BR people can't post about and just take our (BR) conversations and move it onto the things I mentioned to complain about it if they could see our stuff but not post.

Back then I think the whole secrecy was silly, but if we allowed people to see what we talked about in this age where social media rules everything and reddit is the go-to place over Smashboards these days for hot topics on whatever or complain about something, the secrecy would be better honestly.


As long as favoritism doesn't get in the way when adding people to the Sm4sh BR, it should maybe go a bit smoother.
It can just be for the simple stuff like MU charts tier lists and whatever else we can think of, but for tournament related things I believe shaya pointed out, the Tournament organizers discuss that in person with other TO's or just make a quick couple tweets/posts on fb to get opinions for stage lists, news on next few tournaments they'll host, or just advertising their stream like their fb page to follow on twitter donate for this SWEET controller sub my channel etc.

 

[thehard]

Isn't the tournament ruleset created by the Back Room supposed to be the "standard" though? Not in the sense that a TO should blindly adopt it, because in the end they'll do what they feel is the right thing for their tournament. I'm just thinking that having an official group or BR should also be used as a hub for mass information regarding rulesets, and what we/they feel is the best standard ruleset, which can then be worked off of at the discretion of TOs.

I'm just waiting on Capps to open up that group, unless he hasn't chosen a cool enough name yet.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's supposed to be a "recommended" ruleset rather than a standard.

Fact is, a BR has no authority over what a TO does for their tournaments. Best they can do is try to make a recommendation for everyone.

 

[Sinister Slush]

The URC was the closest to Tournament Organizers having the same rulesets back in brawl, not many liked it (NJ a big victim) and kept MK 3 stages and CP that favored MK and IC.

Smash 4 of course no backroom so people have been defaulting to APEX rulesets which is another instance of killing the game slowly if we continue down this route.

 

[thehard]

Not killing, but there is a whole lot of arbitrary limiting of potential.

 

[Foozal]

I'm just waiting on Capps to open up that group, unless he hasn't chosen a cool enough name yet.

Why does Capps have to open up a group? Why can't someone else create a social group? (Just curious, I would open something up but I obviously have 0 reputation so I can't open it)

I mean I'm not trying to be a jerk but I believe that moving forward with something like this should be done ASAP. We really do need to get some standardizations before the next big tournament (Evo 2015 ?).

If the problem is the name, then I guess I should spit out a few:

The Sm4sh Committee

Sm4sh Union

ISA (International Smash Association)

 

[thehard]

Why does Capps have to open up a group? Why can't someone else create a social group? (Just curious, I would open something up but I obviously have 0 reputation so I can't open it)

I mean I'm not trying to be a jerk but I believe that moving forward with something like this should be done ASAP. We really do need to get some standardizations before the next big tournament (Evo 2015 ?).

If the problem is the name, then I guess I should spit out a few:

The Sm4sh Committee

Sm4sh Union

ISA (International Smash Association)

Only because he was the first person to mention it and I don't feel qualified to spearhead this sort of thing, though I'll definitely heavily participate once it's underway

 

[elunesgrace]

is a better tier list. But you're right that we should not take any current tier list seriously. That's partialy what Apex 2015 will be for. A whole lot of data will be gathered. I agree that the Smash 4, or Sm4sh, backroom could and should be formed following that massive event.

Definitely can't put Rosalina that far down.

 

[Smog Frog]

If we do things like Smogon, popular scrub opinion would have already banned Diddy. Hell no.

just a quick psa, dont talk about things you dont know

i've seen people talk too much **** about smogon without knowing how they really work

 

[thehard]

Hey, this thread is important!

I've been doing a lot of archival reading and watching and generally brushing up on the history of competitive Smash rulesets lately (thanks to @Amazing Ampharos and @ Overswarm for their essays on this subject), and now I've got this thread sticking in my mind again.

I don't know what's going to be born out of it, be it a backroom, frontroom, or social group, but man, "it" needs to happen. At least some sort of foundation. I wasn't satisfied with APEX rules, and I'm not satisfied with EVO rules, and I really don't want to see them defining how the community at large plays the game. I know a lot of you are in agreement with me too. These tournaments are NOT reflective of what the majority wants. That's bad. (Customs however is a massive step forward, so we should be proud and hopeful)

Only thing is, I'm just not sure if "this" should happen now, seeing as how EVO is "coming up" and a lot of tournaments have already adopted their ruleset. It feels like a project for post-EVO, IMO.

I think a little can be done in the meantime though. I was planning to run a poll asking Smash 4 players what sort of style of "gathering of Smash 4 community members that would help unify a ruleset" they'd want to see (with the options being what I listed earlier, a backroom, frontroom, social group, or otherwise). Useful? Necessary? Please, chime in! I don't feel in a position to front a lot of this because I haven't been around as long as many of you. I would just like to see the potential of competitive Smash 4 fully realized.

 

[Dre89]

If a BR does happen, the only people who should be in it are high level players and labcoats who have access to things like frame data, hitbox data etc. Maybe people who are in contact with a lot of major TOs too. But none of these 'thinker' types who claim to study the game and write essays on stuff but don't have the results to back it. They're don't have anything substantial or pragmatic to differentiate themselves from the common smasher.

 

[Overswarm]

I've been in like every backroom ever, they're mostly just the same as regular rooms except with names you recognize.

If you don't have a backroom, rulesets are determined by TOs. TOs are influenced by other TOs that host nationals, and those are influenced by public perception and outcry.

If you have a backroom, rulesets are still determined by TOs but there's also "official" rulesets that can be copy/pasted that aren't determined by mob rule. Problem is, these rulesets can have one of two sources of creation:

1. To make Smash 4 the best game possible in the long run, banning only what is proven and using large tournaments collecting data to make meaningful decisions moving forward

2. To make Smash 4 the best game possible NOW, banning what the public is against and focusing on the current metagame and attempting to maintain the status quo while moving forward.

Both suck for different reasons. #1 is better in the long run because it's designed to be, but all it takes is one or two TOs to say "I KNOW BEST" and then a natural split occurs. #2 sucks in both the short term and the long run, but by definition has less public outcry as it goes with public appeal as its source.

TL;DR, just ***** a lot and boycott tournaments that don't host your ruleset, otherwise you have to host big tournaments to have an effect on a ruleset

 

[AnchorTea]

Just a reminder: If a Sm4sh backroom gets decided, it won't happen very soon.

I had a small conversation with @ ぱみゅ about how long it will take the metagame to develop. It is most likely a year due to the customs.

Also, let's not forget that an update/patch that changes the physics or tweak/nerf/buff characters can happen anytime.

It would be a nightmare if a major patch happened when the MU's w/ customs gets developed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

That's more or less the time I estimated the metagame to mature, by then many things will be realized and stuff will likely stop being slept upon.

However, for an actual "backroom" that's irrelevant. Backroomers actually are NOT the ones to define the metagame is, the take a more or less shaped game and try to name what it is overall as well as the more refined points of it. They do not define it, they simply try to figure it out.
Than being said, these people would be able to RECOMMEND to a certain extent what can be done so these shapes become overall better (if you think of it as an sculpture, "paint it green" if something has the shape of a leaf). Not to be taken by word, simply a deeply-thought suggestion.

And taking that in account, if this backroom is running already by the time an update/patch comes, they will re-think what was changed. Not like they can get it wrong again, or can't change opinions.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just a reminder: If a Sm4sh backroom gets decided, it won't happen very soon.
It is most likely a year due to the customs.

I don't think when it'd made matters to be quite honest.
Even if a year, then around end of August basically when we can make it then if it had to be a year.

Also, let's not forget that an update/patch that changes the physics or tweak/nerf/buff characters can happen anytime.

It would be a nightmare if a major patch happened when the MU's w/ customs gets developed.

Customs won't get changed, but if there's % knockback etc. buffs/nerfs it won't be that over centralizing compared to customs changing moves entirely.

If anything, depending what happens with the Mewtwo patch, that might be a good time to think about a backroom made sooner or later.

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

I'd consider making one once Mewtwo is released. I don't really think it's necessary to wait until after EVO. The game's been out long enough. We can establish something for now, and then make changes once EVO happens.

 

[WritersBlah]

I'm really happy to see the discourse that's been going on in this thread; the lack of a Smash 4 Backroom this far into the game was a bit eyebrow-raising in my opinion, but that just kind of shows how uninformed I was. Personally, I'm gonna go ahead and say that I'm pro-backroom for several reasons.

Right now, the biggest issue Smash 4's community is facing right now is the inconsistency among regional rulesets. APEX helped alleviate this somewhat, but the problem there is that the ruleset was mainly made to appease the players that cried the loudest, who were not necessarily the most informed players. And with EVO and CEO essentially clashing in their rulesets, the fact that we can't even achieve unity on a national level is a very big problem. As much as people hated there being a "Smash Illuminati" so to speak, it did keep rulesets uniform because people trust people who are recognizable, or at the very least sound smart. So with that said, I do think Smash 4's hypothetical backroom should still have restricted posting privileges (top players, lab coats, major TO's, and people who are otherwise instrumental to influencing large-scale decisions (like Amazing Ampharos)).

The one point I'm not totally affirmed with though is whether the backroom should be readable by the public. On one hand, it would allow people to actually grasp a true understanding on how ruleset decisions are made by people who are that deeply invested in the game and understand how the game functions on the macro level, so we could end up having fewer ignorant people. On the other hand though, scrubs and stream monsters that have already been known for crying loudly to get their decisions heard by major TO's may just use this to decry people they don't agree with and bring their complaints public, get like-minded people to agree, and go after local TO's, who are more easily swayed by individual opinions. However, since local TO's are essentially the lifeblood of the Smash community, if they end up revolting against the backroom ruleset, it essentially renders the work the backroom does worthless. There's only three decisions that could be made at that point:

1. Give only certain users backroom reading privileges. This could be done via evaluations a la the Smashers Backroom, to essentially make sure only players who are reasonable and intelligent are reading up on how influential community members are making their decisions, which could essentially just promote more intelligent discourse amongst Smashers in general. As much as I personally like this option though, I feel like it's probably the weakest option in the long run because intelligent nobodies are still nobodies, and nothing would be more tempting than to be that one user who leaks images of backroom discussion to 4chan or the like for instant notoriety, at the cost of causing the scenario I described in the previous paragraph.
   
   
2. Opening some sort of frontroom to compliment the backroom. Backroom members would essentially use this to post noob-friendly explanations as to how their reasoning went about to make the decisions they made for the ruleset. This essentially makes it so community backlash is avoided and people who are still interested in understanding top-level decision making can continue being informed individuals. This seems like an overall good decision that reaches a good happy medium that amends issues previous Smash backrooms have had in the past while still avoiding the backlash that would come if the entire backroom was made public. Of course, the third option is still a pretty good one to consider.
   
   
3. Continue doing what all the previous backrooms have done and just stay silent and release our rulesets, match-up charts, and tier lists when they're ready and without explanation. As much suspicion as this raises, people do tend to already just accept rulesets without question anyway, since they can only presume that we're making decisions that are best for the community since we're entirely comprised of good players and smart people. Completely avoid any sort of backlash that can gain traction and continue being the mysterious Smash Illuminati we've always been.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The one point I'm not totally affirmed with though is whether the backroom should be readable by the public. On one hand, it would allow people to actually grasp a true understanding on how ruleset decisions are made by people who are that deeply invested in the game and understand how the game functions on the macro level, so we could end up having fewer ignorant people. On the other hand though, scrubs and stream monsters that have already been known for crying loudly to get their decisions heard by major TO's may just use this to decry people they don't agree with and bring their complaints public, get like-minded people to agree, and go after local TO's, who are more easily swayed by individual opinions. However, since local TO's are essentially the lifeblood of the Smash community, if they end up revolting against the backroom ruleset, it essentially renders the work the backroom does worthless. There's only three decisions that could be made at that point:

I don't see the difference in this sort of outcry happening while discussion is still underway vs. when an otherwise-private back room publicizes the results of their discussion. Either way someone's getting mad.

 

[Jaxas]

I don't see the difference in this sort of outcry happening while discussion is still underway vs. when an otherwise-private back room publicizes the results of their discussion. Either way someone's getting mad.

I'm going to agree with this, and I feel that having the whole 'backroom' area be readable is the best option. TOs in particular should be able to see the reasoning behind the decisions made, and they're the ones who most need to make informed decisions.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Something else is that while it's basically a given that a backroom would be restricted posting access only, I don't think that's a good reason to basically render the whole thing immune to public opinion. While public opinion is hardly a good metric to base a ruleset on, I'd be very worried about a closed off back room becoming an ivory tower of sorts where they start making false assumptions and get out of touch in general.

If 80% of the public thinks X is a bad idea but a back room judges it's fine for the other 20%, which side deserves to be catered to? These are serious questions that don't necessarily need definitive answers right now, but probably should be considered when deciding how to structure the whole thing.

Ninja edits throughout.

Further edit: Another benefit is that while the back room people will likely be handpicked for quality of debate and discussion, there's always the chance that they end up collectively blind to some flaw or other that the wider public will pick up on and complain about.

 

[WritersBlah]

I don't see the difference in this sort of outcry happening while discussion is still underway vs. when an otherwise-private back room publicizes the results of their discussion. Either way someone's getting mad.

A lot of scrub/stream monster types are known for having a hivemind-ish mentality, but they are still pretty good at arguing, if only in that they're incredibly dogmatic. The difference between giving these people a ruleset and the words that come out of people's mouths is that it becomes much easier to point fingers at a specific person for a rule being the way it is (e.g., "Oh, the only reason why Skyloft is legal is because Mew2King thinks it'll make the stage-striking process more balanced or whatever.) Even if it's based on really farfetched reasons, they become tangible reasons instead of just saying "I don't like these rules." Now granted, any intelligent person who's read the backroom discussions will be able to refute these arguments, but in a way, it'll give the conservative-wing a sort of entitlement for sticking together and belief that this makes the backroom a joke. And with a more tangible reason for sticking together, it'll likely make the whole "change the ruleset or I'm not attending the tournament" threat a lot bigger, and since a TO's job is to make sure people come to their tournament, I just see things getting really hairy.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Does anyone even actually want a backroom? If you put all the top players in a room and said "Come up with a ruleset," what do you think that ruleset would be? Here's a hint: Custom moves would be banned. I don't think that a backroom will be good for the scene, because the top players are all very conservative. If we let them decide the rules, we'll have no customs and a crappy stage list. I'd rather have TOs come up with the rulesets. The small minority of top players should not be allowed to dictate the rules for everyone just because they're good at the game.

 

[DarkBlueSpark]

Does anyone even actually want a backroom? If you put all the top players in a room and said "Come up with a ruleset," what do you think that ruleset would be? Here's a hint: Custom moves would be banned. I don't think that a backroom will be good for the scene, because the top players are all very conservative. If we let them decide the rules, we'll have no customs and a crappy stage list. I'd rather have TOs come up with the rulesets. The small minority of top players should not be allowed to dictate the rules for everyone just because they're good at the game.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a small minority of players, and a backroom will help establish a standard ruleset.

 

[ぱみゅ]

.

Does anyone even actually want a backroom? If you put all the top players in a room and said "Come up with a ruleset," what do you think that ruleset would be? Here's a hint: Custom moves would be banned. I don't think that a backroom will be good for the scene, because the top players are all very conservative. If we let them decide the rules, we'll have no customs and a crappy stage list. I'd rather have TOs come up with the rulesets. The small minority of top players should not be allowed to dictate the rules for everyone just because they're good at the game.

A backroom is rarely made of top players. Most of them are bad when it comes to teamwork/agreements.

What I want is a group of people with credentials (posts that prove their knowledge/insight/debate skills) to represent the game itself (not the community, not the tournaments, not the standard, just the game) having a collective agreement and/or public stance on what is potentially good or bad for the future of this game, so TO's can take this stance in account when deciding rulesets.

 

[Johnknight1]

People still want a backroom after all the top community voices (D1, Prog, Toronto Joe, and top players) have spoken out against the idea of a Back Room multiple times, and after previous Back Rooms excluded top players and some of the best TO's=???

If you want Smash 4 competitively to have terrible leadership holding it back like Melee had around the time Brawl came out, or like Brawl did (which caused it to die as a national game at blazing speeds), okay, that's a good idea.

Otherwise no, flat no. There's no need for secrecy for a group with loftily chosen people with minimal credibility that's run like the Nixon Administration. We've seen it before with Unknown ignoring the West Coast (and leaving out people who called him out for all kinds of wrong things he did, of which he got a likely lifelong ban for), we saw it with Brawl's Unity Ruleset Committee and forced rulesets in order to be stickied or promote on SWF, and we're almost definitely going to see it again.

I think it's safe to say third time isn't a charm, especially when it's mostly gonna be the same people who ran the Brawl Back Room by and large.

If Smash 4 wants leadership in the form of a group that matters, look at what Melee did with Melee It On Me. They got ACTUAL top players, top TO's, top broadcasters, and top commentators to run things. They started with a live podcast on Twitch, and made that their first hub. They then got their own site. They even sponsored players, and still continue to do that.

Over time Melee It On Me became its' own thing. That should be the goal, not a little group on the corner of a forum hidden away from the world and arbitrarily trying to be the boss. A group which will be ignored by actual top TO's and broadcasters, and despised by top commentators and players.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you want Smash 4 competitively to have terrible leadership holding it back like Melee had around the time Brawl came out, or like Brawl did (which caused it to die as a national game at blazing speeds), okay, that's a good idea.

Smash 4 already has horrible leaderships when Zero leads the charge and Omni in terms of vlogs and "serious" controversial topics.

Otherwise no, flat no. There's no need for secrecy for a group with loftily chosen people with minimal credibility that's run like the Nixon Administration. We've seen it before with Unknown ignoring the West Coast (and leaving out people who called him out for all kinds of wrong things he did, of which he got a likely lifelong ban for), we saw it with Brawl's Unity Ruleset Committee and forced rulesets in order to be stickied or promote on SWF, and we're almost definitely going to see it again.

Unknown incident was a horrible case. But the URC tried to keep brawl afloat with better rulesets and MK banned. If you don't find that helping the game, audino what is then.

I think it's safe to say third time isn't a charm, especially when it's mostly gonna be the same people who ran the Brawl Back Room by and large.

Not really no.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I will yet again say I am willing to try to set up and organize a "Front Room" of sorts, but in all honestly I don't know what good it will do. Minus a tier list, the Backroom was basically ignored in every other thing they've ever did, and I don't really expect that whatever the new room would suggest this time around would do much good either way.

For a tier list, someone just needs to contact top players and have them sit down and vote on these things, you don't really need a special room to do it. So really, what good in a backroom, frontroom, or room of any kind really going to even do to have it created in the first place.

 

[Overswarm]

The original idea of the melee back room was just a room where top players, TOs, and community people could get together and discuss their favorite game.

It evolved from that after disputes on rulesets starting occurring -- the Kishes made the first "joined" ruleset with their FC series as a compromise between midwest, west, east, and south rulesets. The tournament went well and was beloved by all.

To have a central ruleset would allow people to move from one tournament to another and allow for a national scene. To simply adopt whatever was popular is a recipe for disaster because popularity doesn't necessarily mean competitive. FFA with items is still the most popular way to play smash. Letting just TOs and top players decide was equally bad, as those players are typically conservative in their views and over-estimate their own knowledge.

So we started discussing stages and voting on them and looking for tournament evidence of "why this should be banned". Kongo Falls in Melee (the one with the rock) was actually banned partially because of me! At FC I showed how Fox could outcamp anyone on that stage not by using the rock but by moving between the two top platforms (and, if necessary, dropping to the bottom and coming back up the other side). Previously people had called for the stage to be banned but they did so because of the rock; they considered it a "too good" camping spot. This wasn't the case, but the camping on top platforms was. We showed it to each other and those who previously wanted it legal agreed to ban it.

That was not the norm. What ended up happening in the future was a person simply decided what stages they wanted legal and then attempted to ban the ones they didn't. They looked for evidence against stages they didn't like and ignored those they did. It's why a stage like Castle Siege with a fall-through glitch in Brawl stayed in, why Smashville stayed in despite the extreme camping ability, and why Melee still has pokemon stadium 1 despite that stage taking nearly 2 minutes longer on average in top level matches than all others.

When it became a group of people who said "we want flat/plat stages, no hazards" and that was their "ban line", it became pretty pointless.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I will yet again say I am willing to try to set up and organize a "Front Room" of sorts, but in all honestly I don't know what good it will do. Minus a tier list, the Backroom was basically ignored in every other thing they've ever did, and I don't really expect that whatever the new room would suggest this time around would do much good either way.

No, we're ok thanks.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

.
A backroom is rarely made of top players. Most of them are bad when it comes to teamwork/agreements.

What I want is a group of people with credentials (posts that prove their knowledge/insight/debate skills) to represent the game itself (not the community, not the tournaments, not the standard, just the game) having a collective agreement and/or public stance on what is potentially good or bad for the future of this game, so TO's can take this stance in account when deciding rulesets.

I was under the impression that the back room was composed of top players because they "know what's best for the game" or something like that. Considering you appear to have been part of the Brawl back room, however, I'll trust that you're correct.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I will yet again say I am willing to try to set up and organize a "Front Room" of sorts, but in all honestly I don't know what good it will do. Minus a tier list, the Backroom was basically ignored in every other thing they've ever did, and I don't really expect that whatever the new room would suggest this time around would do much good either way.

For a tier list, someone just needs to contact top players and have them sit down and vote on these things, you don't really need a special room to do it. So really, what good in a backroom, frontroom, or room of any kind really going to even do to have it created in the first place.

I know you're trying your damnedest...ist...est? To shove yourself into the community and act like a top figure, but doing this isn't gonna help your cause.
So again, we're fine thank you kindly.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Sinister Slush I really don't care about being a top figure nor shoving myself into the community. I do some stuff to help the scene out because it makes me happy and gives me something to do instead of sitting at home and going nuts since I can't go out to do much being disabled. The only thing I have to gain from what I do is feeling useful instead of a burden and some personal happiness.

Fortunately or unfortunately, my disability means I have a LOT of spare time to work on things and help out where others wouldn't. That's why I'd be happy to help out if people really wanted this to be a thing since I know a lot of people don't have the time to organize that effort or just plain wont step up to do it themselves.

Also it IS "damnedest" just so you know.

 

[Johnknight1]

Smash 4 already has horrible leaderships when Zero leads the charge and Omni in terms of vlogs and "serious" controversial topics.

Zero is actually a pretty good leader as well as obviously the number 1 player in the world without a question. Sure he says a few "out there" and inappropriate things here and there, but he's still the best, and he's still very young. At worst its' youthful ignorance. Besides that, he's done a ton of great things for the scene. The exposure, advertising, promotions, and guides have all done great things for the scene.

Omni is mostly a guy who posts dank memes. While he's done some good things and made a few good videos, he's not the kind of leader you want in a organization like a Tafokints, Juggleguy, Toronto Joe, Scar, GimR, Nairo, or Coontail.

The preferential leaders are the ones hosting quality tournaments, running quality streams, giving great commentary, making great player guides, helping promote the game/their regional/area scene, or placing great at tournaments. You know, stuff that helps the competitive community routinely.

Unknown incident was a horrible case.

It wasn't an "incident," it was literally everything he did was bad (excluding the should-be criminally charged things he did (which were the worst part of it, yet it didn't warrant his removal for the longest time, which was pretty pathetic on the supposed leadership of said group and site), he basically made the group the hangout for his friends.

He excluded California Melee by and large, which is home to NorCal and SoCal, Melee's 2 strongest regions, home to the 2 best smashers ever, many of the best TO's ever, and some of the largest tournaments ever. He did that because he didn't like those scenes. It was as simple as that.

Oh, and after people finally stopped being afraid of his and his closest friend's bullying and threats and they exposed everything he did, he got excommunicated for life by forces outside of SWF, because the forces with actual power in the competitive scene don't rest in Smash Boards.

But the URC tried to keep brawl afloat with better rulesets and MK banned. If you don't find that helping the game, audino what is then.

That didn't help the game, they divided it. They wrongly used their powers to promote tournaments with their rules only, and they made it to where mods weren't allowed to sticky threads for tournaments that followed different rules.

That negatively impacted attendance at many tournaments, helped destroy certain scenes (I know NorCal Brawl largely died because of that; the lost publicity back then hurt, because that was before Facebook became the competitive Smash home for finding tournaments), hurt TO's, hurt funds, hurt exposure, and ultimately hurt everyone including the people in the Unity Ruleset Committee and people running Meta Knight-banned tournaments. The Meta Knight ban also didn't change tournaments results much at all, other than the pots being smaller, the entrants being smaller (due to many Meta Knight players not going), and viewership being lower.

If you don't find that hurting the game, I don't know what to tell you, other than I won't use a meme.

When APEX came around anti-ban, it killed the URC, because actual majors are more important than this site's flimsy and ultimately worthless rules. And if no actual majors aren't running your rules, your rules aren't seen as valid.

That wasn't the only problem the Brawl Back Room had either. The Xyro leak was pretty hilarious and bad, and showed how utterly stupid and asinine some members are in there. It is a shame someone got banned from there for that. They honestly did that place a big favor by showing who should get cut.

Not really no.

Are you kidding? There's almost no new noteworthy national TO's for Smash 4 that weren't TO's for Brawl.

The top Smash 4 streamer groups (Clash Tournaments, VGBootCamp, Smash Studios, etc) were primarily Brawl streams back in the day.

Of 4 of the top 8 placing players in Smash 4 at APEX 2014, 5 of them had placed in top 8 of Apex for Brawl in a previous year. Mr. R had come in 9th at 2 straight APEX's for Brawl, while Abandango came in 33rd at Apex for Brawl before. 6WX was the only member of the Smash 4 top 8 at Apex 2015 not to place well or enter Brawl at a previous Apex.

You can say "Not really no" all you want, but those results show that's not the case.

===

If you guys want great leadership, again, I suggest the Smash 4 scene look at what Melee It On Me did. They ran a podcast, hosted tournament streams, got a group going, and started getting Melee getting big by helping people find out about tournaments, get better at the game, and make better rulesets. They also helped Melee's scene become self-efficient, work better with other Smash games and FGC games at tournaments, helped with international communication and logistics, and so on. Ultimately all of that positively impacted the Smash community as a whole, and helped increase tournament attendance, viewership, and exposure across all titles.

I'm currently seeing a lot of that same kind of smart, passionate, and non-forceful leadership right now in the NorCal Smash 4 Facebook group, and it is pretty amazing. Given that great regional leadership it is no wonder tournament entrant numbers are so good, the players seem happy, the streamers are enjoying it, and the viewers are seeing a great product.

It is a shame barely anyone outside of California watches their streams, though. The Nor Cal Smash 4 group right now has pretty good streams, podcasts, etc., as well as very unique and high level play amongst its' players. Despite that, East Coast smashers don't watch West Coast streams apparently. I can't figure out why, since honestly West Coast is universally more aggressive across basically all Smash titles and generally higher level in play on stream, and that generally makes for a better viewer experience.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Are you kidding? There's almost no new noteworthy national TO's for Smash 4 that weren't TO's for Brawl.

Oh we're talking about TO's not the people who were BBR members that would be Smash 4 BR if it was made?
That's a different story then, should've just said that.

 

[Johnknight1]

Oh we're talking about TO's not the people who were BBR members that would be Smash 4 BR if it was made?
That's a different story then, should've just said that.

I mean we have many mods from the Brawl Boards coming over to the Smash 4 boards, and many Brawl Back Room members now playing Smash 4, so there's gonna be a high repeat rate.

We still have the same leadership here after all.

Not to say the current leadership is good or bad. My two key points in the membership are as follows:
- The exclusion of many top actual competitive voices hurts the community. Speaking historically, this had lead to an exclusion of regions and sub-regions from the discussion.
-The elements of making it a club for only your friends (see: boy's only club tropes) are a net negative on the community. This is ultimately what killed the Melee and Brawl Back Rooms' respective credibility, and why the former doesn't exist, and the latter in the greater scope of the community might as well not exist.

 

[DavemanCozy]

just a quick psa, dont talk about things you dont know

i've seen people talk too much **** about smogon without knowing how they really work

Smogon went banhappy a long time ago. There's no saving them, but there's saving this community from them.

I was a member of their site since Pearl / Diamond up until I quit when X / Y was released, right from the start OU got so dumb with the ban-happiness. It's why I went to VGC only instead.

But if you all want to keep playing their game rather than the game, be my guest and continue. I'd rather not see that happen to Smash with characters / individual customs banned based on popularity contests.

 

[Raijinken]

It is a shame barely anyone outside of California watches their streams, though. The Nor Cal Smash 4 group right now has pretty good streams, podcasts, etc., as well as very unique and high level play amongst its' players. Despite that, East Coast smashers don't watch West Coast streams apparently. I can't figure out why, since honestly West Coast is universally more aggressive across basically all Smash titles and generally higher level in play on stream, and that generally makes for a better viewer experience.

I can't speak for everyone (or even anyone) else, but at least for me, the fact that they're three hours later than the east coast makes a big difference. With class and work I can barely justify staying up til 1-2 to watch an east-coast (or Texas) tournament, there's no way on earth I'm watching one of corresponding time run til 3, 4, 5AM my time. And, perhaps with similar cause, I don't seem to find their streams on Twitch when I'm looking. That's quite possibly because they're starting after others are already under-way, or because I'm not checking when they'd be starting. Either way, I'd gladly watch more from there (feel free to PM me some links so I can follow 'em directly).

Generally, though, you're right. However, it is rather difficult to get representation from all regions like that. I'd like to see it happen, but who knows if it will.

 

[Sinister Slush]

It's hard to get any representation when you're not a top player streaming or just a top stream like VGBC CT etc.
So I'm not too surprised streams that deserve more support and the twitch bux over those kinda streams/top players that already make good money winning the tournaments is happening.