what's wrong with cloned movesets?

[DynamiteSpoony]

And who exactly would Dark Samus be a clone of?

....Samus?

Seriously, I don't think Dark Samus would be a true clone like Dr. Mario or Young Link. Which, by the way, are exactly the kind of characters we're talking about. If it's someone like Dark Samus who has enough moves of their own to distance themselves from the original, that's a different story.

However, just copypasta-ing a moveset from one character to another is nothing short of cheapness and laziness on the developers' part that was only done in Melee because they were running out of time, and seeing as Sakurai seems to be pouring his heart and soul into this game being the best it can be, I don't think he'd shortchange us with a crappy roster full of clones.

And if need be, they can always just delay the game. Not like it matters much anyway, because they already missed the Christmas season.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Samus but I know Dark Samus can easily have her own unique moveset.

....Samus?

Oh dear... I don't want to assume that neither of you have ever played Metroid Prime 2 and 3, or that you played it but let your friends fight the Dark Samus battles for you, but I must clarify a thing or two.

The thing isn't that she CAN have her own move set. It's that she CAN'T have a cloned move set without it being totally off. I mean, half of Samus's specials are things Dark Samus cannot do, ger grab is certainly something Dark Samus could only dream of, and any attack involving her flamethrower is also a no. Not to mention they move totally different, and some of Dark Samus's most distinctive abilities are unique to her (when looking at the pair of them).

 

[courte]

I'm not insisting on anything, I realize that what I write here is meaningless, as it has no affect on the outcome. I'd like there to be clones, as clones add in characters who otherwise wouldn't be in, and give players different playstyles to try out.

And, as much as people like to think they do, clones do not take up space that other, completely new, characters could have had. They are added when there isn't enough time to build/balance entirely new movesets.

and omg now there IS time. maybe you mean when talking about smash, because clones in other fighting games are made that way on purpose, with no regards to time restraints

 

[Big-Cat]

....Samus?

Seriously, I don't think Dark Samus would be a true clone like Dr. Mario or Young Link. Which, by the way, are exactly the kind of characters we're talking about. If it's someone like Dark Samus who has enough moves of their own to distance themselves from the original, that's a different story.

Well, now, Young Link and Pichu could be their own characters but I see your point.

Oh dear... I don't want to assume that neither of you have ever played Metroid Prime 2 and 3, or that you played it but let your friends fight the Dark Samus battles for you, but I must clarify a thing or two.

The thing isn't that she CAN have her own move set. It's that she CAN'T have a cloned move set without it being totally off. I mean, half of Samus's specials are things Dark Samus cannot do, ger grab is certainly something Dark Samus could only dream of, and any attack involving her flamethrower is also a no. Not to mention they move totally different, and some of Dark Samus's most distinctive abilities are unique to her (when looking at the pair of them).

I've beaten all three Prime games including Dark Samus and Metroid Prime. Like I said, I know she can easily have her own moveset. As for her specials, they can pull a Lucas and give her abilities she never had. Also, Samus' flamethrower can be the same as Dark Samus shooting out phazon.

 

[Jackal478]

Lies. Link plz.

It was on the first DOJO, I beleive.

I'm sorry that I don't keep links to all the places I go...

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

I've beaten all three Prime games including Dark Samus and Metroid Prime. Like I said, I know she can easily have her own moveset. As for her specials, they can pull a Lucas and give her abilities she never had. Also, Samus' flamethrower can be the same as Dark Samus shooting out phazon.

And the Screw Attack? Morph Ball Bombs? Grapple Beam? Pulling a Lucas is a little different because his attacks are all psychic abilities. Samus's are physical components to her Power Suit (for the purposes of Brawl, her body). It's like having Lucas use a move like Yoshi's standard special or something.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

DarkPaladin: It was a joke. I know he/she/it's not a clone.

And once again, I say that clones DO take up space in the roster and they DO take away from original characters. Even though they don't spend as MUCH time on clones, it still does take time that could be spent developing new movesets for new characters.

And why should Smash strive to fit the standards of other fighting games? Just because they have clones doesn't mean Smash should have them too.

 

[courte]

ok can we get back on topic; we should all be aware that clones can be cancelled out look at lucas, and the method of making a characters moveset stems from the resource material i.e. their actions in their respective game --therefore dark samus could only be a clone if they got REALLY lazy

 

[Big-Cat]

And why should Smash strive to fit the standards of other fighting games? Just because they have clones doesn't mean Smash should have them too.

Yes, but it doesn't mean that they won't have them either.

 

[Zenigame]

and omg now there IS time. maybe you mean when talking about smash, because clones in other fighting games are made that way on purpose, with no regards to time restraints

Apparently not, what with the delays And, yes, I was talking about Smash.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Apparently not, what with the delays And, yes, I was talking about Smash.

You still don't know what the delay was actually for

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

Yes, but it doesn't mean that they won't have them either.

True. I was just pointing out that saying Smash will have them because other fighters do is a really bad argument, because Smash is NOTHING like other fighting games.

But it could be possible for replacements...the new video today pretty much killed Ness (Lucas' FSmash is the same animation as Ness' bat, only with a stick), which doesn't look like a very good sign for copypasta clones.

 

[Zenigame]

You still don't know what the delay was actually for

Neither do you. And even if it was for WiFi (which seems the most likely reason), what are the modelers/spriters/animators/texturers supposed to have been doing these past 2 months? Sleeping?

 

[Big-Cat]

It was on the first DOJO, I beleive.

I'm sorry that I don't keep links to all the places I go...

Actually, this is what was on the original Dojo, according to Samurai Panda:

ut, although you'll see characters from the last game, this time, on a significant scale [Yes, this is exact], they will be remade. It is this sort of thing [This sentence is slang, so there really isn't a good English translation for it].

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=72642

Sorry, but this doesn't imply that clones will or won't be in Brawl.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Neither do you. And even if it was for WiFi (which seems the most likely reason), what are the modelers/spriters/animators/texturers supposed to have been doing these past 2 months? Sleeping?

No, but I'm sure w/e they've been doing for 2 months let alone the past years has nothing to do with adding clones

 

[WarioII]

They lack originality...why put two characters with the same moveset when you can have two completely original movesets?

yeah why have the same movesets its boring why not push the envelope and have everyone with their own moveset

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Instead of taking someone else personality and traits and giving them to a character that can have their own and be completely different.

 

[Nicktendo]

I agree with the moveset is made to fit its own character, and it loses specialty being with someone else.

...Or maybe Im just sour that basically all the ****ing unlockables in melee were clones, so I hate them because of the lack of orignial characters in melee

No clones please

 

[CT Chia]

cloned characters generally seem lazy for characters such as ganondorf and luigi who could have completely differ movesets. some are useless such as pichu, but others make more sense like falco. hes similar enough to fox so the moves make sense, but they hcanged the mechanics a lot. i wouldnt mind if there a couple in brawl, but not many at all. as long as they arent as useless as ganondorf. his original moveset coulda been so awesome.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

I agree with the moveset is made to fit its own character, and it loses specialty being with someone else.

...Or maybe Im just sour that basically all the ****ing unlockables in melee were clones, so I hate them because of the lack of orignial characters in melee

No clones please

Indeed. Clones cramp up a roster by limiting the number of actually unique characters to choose from. Not to mention make for very dissapointing unlockables.

What's the point of having 50 characters if 15 of them are just rehash?

 

[El_Duderino]

What's the point of having 50 characters if 15 of them are just rehash?

Two words: Fan Service.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Two words: Fan Service.

That's aint Fan Service. Compound word: Bull****

 

[brawl_maniac]

I agree with the moveset is made to fit its own character, and it loses specialty being with someone else.

...Or maybe Im just sour that basically all the ****ing unlockables in melee were clones, so I hate them because of the lack of orignial characters in melee

No clones please

I really hated that on Melee,all of the friggen people were clones.

I HATE CLONES!

 

[El_Duderino]

That's aint Fan Service. Compound word: Bull****

Either you give a reason why, or there was no point in posting a reply. Yes, the inclusion of more playable characters is fan service. The entire SSB series revolves around fan service. If it didn't, it would have new characters, stages, items, music, etc, instead of transplanting all such elements from other games. The question was, "What's the point of adding more characters if they have the same/similar movesets?" The answer is, the addition of that character's model, sound effects, music, etc is going to make a substantial faction of people, those people who played that character's games and have fond memories of it, happier than a pig in ****, and Sakurai knows this.

 

[Big-Cat]

I really hated that on Melee,all of the friggen people were clones.

I HATE CLONES!

What if there were five clones out of 50-60 people?

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Either you give a reason why, or there was no point in posting a reply. Yes, the inclusion of more playable characters is fan service. The entire SSB series revolves around fan service. If it didn't, it would have new characters, stages, items, music, etc, instead of transplanting all such elements from other games. The question was, "What's the point of adding more characters if they have the same/similar movesets?" The answer is, the addition of that character's model, sound effects, music, etc is going to make a substantial faction of people, those people who played that character's games and have fond memories of it, happier than a pig in ****, and Sakurai knows this.

Sakurai also knows that these characters are different and therefore should have a unique moveset. A racer like C. Falcon, should not have similar abilities to someone evil like Ganon, it makes no sense and it's completely unoriginal. When fans ask for more characters I don't think they ask for clones, now do they? The people who see their favorite character and discover it's a clone won't make them that happy. The game is better without clones and I don't see why you're implying that Brawl should have them.

 

[brawl_maniac]

What if there were five clones out of 50-60 people?

I still wont play as the clones.

I never did play as clones on Melee,besides Marth and Roy.

 

[El_Duderino]

Sakurai also knows that these characters are different and therefore should have a unique moveset. A racer like C. Falcon, should not have similar abilities to someone evil like Ganon, it makes no sense and it's completely unoriginal. When fans ask for more characters I don't think they ask for clones, now do they? The people who see their favorite character and discover it's a clone won't make them that happy. The game is better without clones and I don't see why you're implying that Brawl should have them.

Was I a little disappointed when I found out Ganondorf had Captain Falcon's moves? Yes. Was I ecstatic when I found out Ganondorf was playable in Melee? Again, the answer is yes. Ecstatic cancels out the occasional minor disappointment. That's why. If some other much-beloved character had a chance to get in Brawl, but due to time constraints could only do so by recycling a moveset, you're **** right I'd rather see them in than cut.

 

[Nicktendo]

The only clones that are worthy are falco and luigi.. because they are so similiar to fox and mario. That said I do want luigi changed up more. Green missle, the poke of death and the killer air chop are a start but he could be more unique from mario. Falco.. he could be given diffrent weapons. The rest were just complete crap and waste of space. Pichu/Roy/Doctor Mario were awful. Roy was just a promotional character but he shouldnt have been in at all

I was so pissed that Ganondorf was a clone. I was like "awesome ganon!" Then he had the exact same moves as captain falcon which killed him in melee for me.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Was I a little disappointed when I found out Ganondorf had Captain Falcon's moves? Yes. Was I ecstatic when I found out Ganondorf was playable in Melee? Again, the answer is yes. Ecstatic cancels out the occasional minor disappointment. That's why. If some other much-beloved character had a chance to get in Brawl, but due to time constraints could only do so by recycling a moveset, you're **** right I'd rather see them in than cut.

It doesn't necessarily mean you have to flood the whole ****in game with clones. No one wants **** like that, especially when you've had years to make the game. There should be no excuses for it, unless it's something like Pichu and Pikachu, in which they couldn't really do much. People preferred Ganon to have his sword, but did he? NO. He was made a clone, instead of being made unique, which is what they WILL do in Brawl. Make him unique as well as everyone else.

 

[courte]

would you rather play as boba fett or jango fett??

or one of the million clone/storm troopers??

 

[Chiastic]

i totally agree Brawl shouldnt be flooded with clones... especially those useless clones like Dr. Mario. just a few clones. not many of them. just a FEW. and maybe change instead of giving them the exact moveset as their originals, change them a bit. like mario and luigi, they're very similar but luigi has that side-b charge thingy and mario had his cape deflection, as well as some other moves, but at the same time they played verrrry similar.
imagine falco being a clone of fox, but instead of having a blaster, having a rocket launcher, different smash attacks and a different final smash. not mentioning other values like speed, jumps, and the length of their up-b move.
i think that would make everyone happy. they're not complete clones, just semi-clones (and please dont flood us with em).

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

i totally agree Brawl shouldnt be flooded with clones... especially those useless clones like Dr. Mario. just a few clones. not many of them. just a FEW. and maybe change instead of giving them the exact moveset as their originals, change them a bit. like mario and luigi, they're very similar but luigi has that side-b charge thingy and mario had his cape deflection, as well as some other moves, but at the same time they played verrrry similar.
imagine falco being a clone of fox, but instead of having a blaster, having a rocket launcher, different smash attacks and a different final smash. not mentioning other values like speed, jumps, and the length of their up-b move.
i think that would make everyone happy. they're not complete clones, just semi-clones (and please dont flood us with em).

Agreed. I still hope for no clones in Brawl at all though.

 

[Big-Cat]

i totally agree Brawl shouldnt be flooded with clones... especially those useless clones like Dr. Mario. just a few clones. not many of them. just a FEW. and maybe change instead of giving them the exact moveset as their originals, change them a bit. like mario and luigi, they're very similar but luigi has that side-b charge thingy and mario had his cape deflection, as well as some other moves, but at the same time they played verrrry similar.
imagine falco being a clone of fox, but instead of having a blaster, having a rocket launcher, different smash attacks and a different final smash. not mentioning other values like speed, jumps, and the length of their up-b move.
i think that would make everyone happy. they're not complete clones, just semi-clones (and please dont flood us with em).

Semi-clones would be something everyone would agree on. Considering the extra delay, this might be the case.

If I recall, Famitsu supposedly stated that they were still adding characters to the roster and this was after the delay was announced.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Semi-clones would be something everyone would agree on. Considering the extra delay, this might be the case.

If I recall, Famitsu supposedly stated that they were still adding characters to the roster and this was after the delay was announced.

That doesn't mean they won't get unique movesets. What if it were characters in which movesets could easily pop up and be included. Or movesets that have been suggested.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

i totally agree Brawl shouldnt be flooded with clones... especially those useless clones like Dr. Mario. just a few clones. not many of them. just a FEW. and maybe change instead of giving them the exact moveset as their originals, change them a bit. like mario and luigi, they're very similar but luigi has that side-b charge thingy and mario had his cape deflection, as well as some other moves, but at the same time they played verrrry similar.
imagine falco being a clone of fox, but instead of having a blaster, having a rocket launcher, different smash attacks and a different final smash. not mentioning other values like speed, jumps, and the length of their up-b move.
i think that would make everyone happy. they're not complete clones, just semi-clones (and please dont flood us with em).

^This is exactly the point we're trying to make.

I understand there's a few characters that have no choice but to be similar (Falco/Wolf, Luigi), but these people are in a definite minority, and we should by no means be flooded with them.

 

[Big-Cat]

That doesn't mean they won't get unique movesets. What if it were characters in which movesets could easily pop up and be included. Or movesets that have been suggested.

Assuming that the characters being added are a result of the delay, I highly doubt the characters being added are purely unique.

 

[El_Duderino]

It doesn't necessarily mean you have to flood the whole ****in game with clones. No one wants **** like that, especially when you've had years to make the game. There should be no excuses for it, unless it's something like Pichu and Pikachu, in which they couldn't really do much. People preferred Ganon to have his sword, but did he? NO. He was made a clone, instead of being made unique, which is what they WILL do in Brawl. Make him unique as well as everyone else.

People also preferred Ganon to be in at all over not being in. Look, I've made a game. I know what I'm talking about. There are excuses for it. Good reasons. I personally believe Ganondorf will have a new moveset in Brawl, because giving him one would have been top priority from day one. But there are other Ganondorfs for Brawl, make no mistake about that. Characters that deserve to be in, that fans clamor for, but due to time, money, and manpower concerns, they just aren't going to make it without recycling something.

Delaying a game is not something done lightly, especially one as hyped as Brawl. It costs a ton of money, skips big buying seasons and not least it irritates those gamers who look forward to its release. Sakurai does not have a bottomless pit of time, money and fan patience from which to draw. Nintendo's probably on him like stink on rice right now to get Brawl out of the door.

Yes, I prefer original movesets. I'd rather that the number of characters that make it in were limited by disk space alone, and that they all were beautiful, unique snowflakes. But that, my friend, is completely impossible, and I know it. Sakurai knows it. Claims of clairvoyance are not going to change it.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

If you can't make it a unique character, then make it an AT, that way you don't have to recycle anything, and they'll still be in the game.

 

[DynamiteSpoony]

If you can't make it a unique character, then make it an AT, that way you don't have to recycle anything, and they'll still be in the game.

Adding to this point:

Why do you think Lyn and Goroh were AT'd? Clones are easy to make, but ATs are even easier.