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what's wrong with cloned movesets?

Ghost07

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I don't disagree to the fact that Fox and Falco are rivals, but they still need to set each apart from each other through some way.. it's not like they're Batman and Robin...

I don't really care what weapon they give Falco, as long as he's balanced.
I agree.
I never said they should have the same moveset. I said if they give him to moves to
1. Keep them in his play style
2.Keep them balanced

People seem to argue too much about clones. Whats so bad about adding to a roster that would otherwise be lacking. In Smash Bros I play with my favorite characters not because they're top tiers but because I enjoy those certain characters. If falco were to be in brawl and still a clone of fox, yes i would be mad but I'd still play with him because he is one of my favorite nintendo chars.

Somtimes I wonder do we sometimes expect to much from games....there were made for entertainment.
 

Big-Cat

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That we know some of the contents of the game due to Sakurai's updates and gameplay footage, yea I think I know exactly what I'm saying. I and everyone else see no clone material in Brawl.
*facepalm*

We haven't seen anything that really does support clones being in Brawl but we haven't seen anything that supports them not being in. Besides, aren't you being rather presumptuous?
 

Meta_Sonic64

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*facepalm*

We haven't seen anything that really does support clones being in Brawl but we haven't seen anything that supports them not being in. Besides, aren't you being rather presumptuous?
Maybe I am, but aren't most people on these boards presumptuous? Yes we have seen things that don't support them being in. The fact that Sakurai hasn't confirmed any characters that are clones. Which is 22 uniques characters(excluding Zamus).
 

Big-Cat

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Maybe I am, but aren't most people on these boards presumptuous? Yes we have seen things that don't support them being in. The fact that Sakurai hasn't confirmed any characters that are clones. Which is 22 uniques characters(excluding Zamus).
You have to consider this: In Melee, all the clones were unlockable. If this is repeated, we won't find out until after release.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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You have to consider this: In Melee, all the clones were unlockable. If this is repeated, we won't find out until after release.
Didn't Sakurai say that he would be revealing all of the roster? I still doubt clones will exist in this game, unlockable or not. Sonic and Snake aren't clones, but they are unlockable.
 

Big-Cat

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Didn't Sakurai say that he would be revealing all of the roster? I still doubt clones will exist in this game, unlockable or not. Sonic and Snake aren't clones, but they are unlockable.
Yes, he did say he'd reveal the roster but he acknowledged that the internet will reveal the full roster before he did. Chances are,however, that the full roster will be put up after release. Sorry, I forgot to mention that Sonic, Snake and any third party characters are unlockable.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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Considering it takes more work and creativity to make a cloned character than it does to make an AT, I'm not sure I see where you're coming from here.
An AT is a lot more original, since you won't be using another character's own style and traits to give to another character that doesn't even suit it. So just make em an AT. That's what it seems like Sakurai is doing anyway.
 

Big-Cat

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An AT is a lot more original, since you won't be using another character's own style and traits to give to another character that doesn't even suit it. So just make em an AT. That's what it seems like Sakurai is doing anyway.
It doesn't seem like he's making clone candidates ATs. He's making characters ATs who would otherwise be a typical archetype or have a totally redundant moveset. I believe that Saki, Lyn, and Goroh were made ATs because there would have been too many sword users. We already have four sword users confirmed. I think he'll make more unique characters like Claus and Takamaru the playable sword users.

As for others like Kumatora and Wolf, they would be clones because the main characters from their series is already in, they would easily fit in the Subspace Emissary storyline, and they were well requested.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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It doesn't seem like he's making clone candidates ATs. He's making characters ATs who would otherwise be a typical archetype or have a totally redundant moveset. I believe that Saki, Lyn, and Goroh were made ATs because there would have been too many sword users. We already have four sword users confirmed. I think he'll make more unique characters like Claus and Takamaru the playable sword users.

As for others like Kumatora and Wolf, they would be clones because the main characters from their series is already in, they would easily fit in the Subspace Emissary storyline, and they were well requested.
How would Wolf be a clone, go tell that to the Wolf thread. Wolf can get a unique moveset if they decided to make one for him. Kumatora is the only reason you support clones in the first place. :ohwell: I respect that but cmon dude, it's not right.
 

El_Duderino

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An AT is a lot more original, since you won't be using another character's own style and traits to give to another character that doesn't even suit it. So just make em an AT. That's what it seems like Sakurai is doing anyway.
The moveset is rebalanced for the clone, each move is retuned and given different effects, new sound effects for each move have to be recorded, new special effects for some moves have to be made, the work on the animation has to be more thorough in case some move has an unwanted effect on the model. And so on.

An AT runs through a preset sequence of events and despawns, just like a pokemon. That's hardly anything compared to the work needed to fit a character model with balanced moves, regardless of where those moves came from. ATs are the extremely lazy way out on these characters, but that's necessary, since Sakurai can't cram all of video game-dom into the roster. But if a character has the right proportions to be a clone and would be an AT otherwise, the clone is the route with more work and, yes, originality required.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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The moveset is rebalanced for the clone, each move is retuned and given different effects, new sound effects for each move have to be recorded, new special effects for some moves have to be made, the work on the animation has to be more thorough in case some move has an unwanted effect on the model. And so on.

An AT runs through a preset sequence of events and despawns, just like a pokemon. That's hardly anything compared to the work needed to fit a character model with balanced moves, regardless of where those moves came from. ATs are the extremely lazy way out on these characters, but that's necessary, since Sakurai can't cram all of video game-dom into the roster. But if a character has the right proportions to be a clone and would be an AT otherwise, the clone is the route with more work and, yes, originality required.
How is originality required for a totally unoriginal concept? I still don't get why anyone would be clones when they've had all this time to sort this out(years). I'm sure all of the characters will have unique movesets.
 

Big-Cat

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How would Wolf be a clone, go tell that to the Wolf thread. Wolf can get a unique moveset if they decided to make one for him. Kumatora is the only reason you support clones in the first place. :ohwell: I respect that but cmon dude, it's not right.
Wolf can easily be a Fox clone and I'm aware that ANY character has potential for a unique moveset. While it's true I've supported clones because of her, she's not the only reason. I support clones because too many people have twisted the original journal translations to the point where people believe Sakurai said no clones and many other things.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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Wolf can easily be a Fox clone and I'm aware that ANY character has potential for a unique moveset. While it's true I've supported clones because of her, she's not the only reason. I support clones because too many people have twisted the original journal translations to the point where people believe Sakurai said no clones and many other things.
Sounds like your other reason is a grudge b/c of other's mistakes. Sakurai may not of said he hated clones, but he must've said something concerning them, if so many people remember something about it, and I'm sure it wasn't a compliment on them either.
 

Big-Cat

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Sounds like your other reason is a grudge b/c of other's mistakes. Sakurai may not of said he hated clones, but he must've said something concerning them, if so many people remember something about it, and I'm sure it wasn't a compliment on them either.
My reason is not a grudge. My support partially began when I looked back at the original journal topics and analyzing common misconceptions like Sakurai wanting to add more girls to the roster. Sakurai never said anything involving clones other than that returning characters would have their movesets changed to some degree. People eventually took this as there being no vet clones. Then, this was taken where there aren't going to be clones in Brawl, period.
 

El_Duderino

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How is originality required for a totally unoriginal concept? I still don't get why anyone would be clones when they've had all this time to sort this out(years). I'm sure all of the characters will have unique movesets.
You didn't read any of that, did you?
 
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If the game's characters were all done and spectacular, and one of the developers said "Hey, while you guys are putting the finishing touches on that, I can make a few more characters with recycled movesets. It should be done before we even have to start on *whatever*." What's the problem? They aren't taking space from other characters, they were simple additions that the developers had time to put in before the game was finished, unlike making a new moveset which would take too much time.
Were I a member of any sort of organized religion, I would praise and thank whichever deity that religion worships that you had no part in the development of this game. As it happens, I am not, but the feeling of gratitude remains.
 
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Maybe I'm ****ing weird, but I like clones.

The way Marth and Roy shared their moves was almost like saying "Yo! We're brothers in arms!", or something like that. Luigified clones are even better.

Besdies, Sakurai can't just pull characters from his ***. Look at Aether and Final Cutter. The last part of Aether is almost identical to kirby's move.
 

Big-Cat

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Besdies, Sakurai can't just pull characters from his ***. Look at Aether and Final Cutter. The last part of Aether is almost identical to kirby's move.
I'm glad you mentioned this. This reminds me that one move isn't exclusive to one character.
 

Zoo-bellocks

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Meta_Sonic64, you are so close minded and stubborn that it's sickening. It's like the second you see the words of someone else on your screen, you launch into defensive mode and shoot out the same tired and ignorant argument you have before.

Here' s a rundown on why clones are not a problem:

-Clones are put in AFTER characters with original move sets are put in due to extra development time. Therefore, they do not take space away from characters with original move sets. Sakurai specifically discusses this in some of the clone's profiles on the Japanese Melee site. This is fact and arguing with it will make you look like more of a tool.

-Clones allow characters who otherwise wouldn't have made it to be in. Now please, I know you're wanting to repeat your worthless argument of "don't put in a character if it's not original" or some variation of it, but make an effort to continue reading. In a choice between a clone character, or not having the character at all, most people with sense would choose the clone. There is essentially no strings attached. Those who dislike clones for their inane reasons lose absolutely nothing, and those who have no problem with clones gain a character they may like. Look at Ganondorf; We never would have had The Legend of Zelda's main baddy AT ALL on the battlefield if Sakurai didn't decide to throw him in as a clone. I also find it pretty funny how you say that if they can't have original move sets, they should just be ATs, because either way, people will complain. Having a character show up for a few seconds and perform one move is hardly better than a character sharing a move set and being playable. In fact, it's considerably worse.

-Clones take very little development time and effort, unlike original move sets. Non-clone characters take a lot of work. With most characters, there is only so much source material to work with and the rest of their moves need to be made up. Modelling and animating is also not a quick process. With clones, almost everything is already done. They just need to switch models (hence Sakurai's term for clones on the Japanese site "Model switching characters") and tweak the moves, and presto! Someone new to the roster that others can enjoy. But of course, if you don't enjoy them, then no one else should, right?

Sakurai can't add every character as playable, and this is evidenced by the addition of Assist Trophies. However, in some cases, Sakurai can add a character who otherwise wouldn't have made it if they fit certain criteria (i.e. similar body proportions, a move set that would be at least somewhat logical to copy from another character). That's the bottom line. At any rate, there is no reason NOT to expect clones. The 2 month delay makes it especially likely, seeing as how it's definitely not enough time to make characters with original move sets, but easily enough time to make clones.

It seems that you have a very short attentions span and hate listening to anyone other than yourself make an argument, so getting through to you is a futile effort, but at least try to read it thoroughly rather than just quoting it and spinning out the same non-nonsensical retort you gave to everyone else. Please?
 

Big-Cat

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Zoo-bellocks, you have pretty much saved this thread.
 

DynamiteSpoony

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Meta_Sonic64, you are so close minded and stubborn that it's sickening. It's like the second you see the words of someone else on your screen, you launch into defensive mode and shoot out the same tired and ignorant argument you have before.


Yes, because NOT automatically agreeing with you can only mean that we're is closed-minded and stubborn.


Here' s a rundown on why clones are not a problem:

-Clones are put in AFTER characters with original move sets are put in due to extra development time. Therefore, they do not take space away from characters with original move sets. Sakurai specifically discusses this in some of the clone's profiles on the Japanese Melee site. This is fact and arguing with it will make you look like more of a tool.

No, no no. Clones are used to fill space and look like the developers are not shortchanging the gamers when they don't have enough time or money to make a true roster. Also, like what has been used against us so often, link or it didn't happen.

-Clones allow characters who otherwise wouldn't have made it to be in. Now please, I know you're wanting to repeat your worthless argument of "don't put in a character if it's not original" or some variation of it, but make an effort to continue reading. In a choice between a clone character, or not having the character at all, most people with sense would choose the clone. There is essentially no strings attached. Those who dislike clones for their inane reasons lose absolutely nothing, and those who have no problem with clones gain a character they may like. Look at Ganondorf; We never would have had The Legend of Zelda's main baddy AT ALL on the battlefield if Sakurai didn't decide to throw him in as a clone. I also find it pretty funny how you say that if they can't have original move sets, they should just be ATs, because either way, people will complain. Having a character show up for a few seconds and perform one move is hardly better than a character sharing a move set and being playable. In fact, it's considerably worse.

Hrm. Our argument is "worthless". Yeah, and we're the closed-minded ones. Of course we would rather have clones than nothing at all. It's just that we also would MUCH prefer a full original roster than a bunch of lazy, half-***** rehashes. Had Melee not been rushed out the door like it was, Ganondorf would NOT have been a clone, and neither would most of the others.

-Clones take very little development time and effort, unlike original move sets. Non-clone characters take a lot of work. With most characters, there is only so much source material to work with and the rest of their moves need to be made up. Modelling and animating is also not a quick process. With clones, almost everything is already done. They just need to switch models (hence Sakurai's term for clones on the Japanese site "Model switching characters") and tweak the moves, and presto! Someone new to the roster that others can enjoy. But of course, if you don't enjoy them, then no one else should, right?

*facepalm* Read above argument.Also, do you have to be so demeaning and rude? You're not proving your open-mindedness.

Sakurai can't add every character as playable, and this is evidenced by the addition of Assist Trophies. However, in some cases, Sakurai can add a character who otherwise wouldn't have made it if they fit certain criteria (i.e. similar body proportions, a move set that would be at least somewhat logical to copy from another character). That's the bottom line. At any rate, there is no reason NOT to expect clones. The 2 month delay makes it especially likely, seeing as how it's definitely not enough time to make characters with original move sets, but easily enough time to make clones.

So...spending more time on the game means they're throwing in clone-after-clone and not, say, perfecting WI-FI or SSE? Or maybe perfecting the movesets of the ORIGINAL CHARACTERS?!

It seems that you have a very short attentions span and hate listening to anyone other than yourself make an argument, so getting through to you is a futile effort, but at least try to read it thoroughly rather than just quoting it and spinning out the same non-nonsensical retort you gave to everyone else. Please?
Well, you haven't brought anything revolutionary to the table either, bud. And at least we were civil and understanding, and didn't just get away with calling you "close-minded sickening short-attention-spanned idiot-tools" or something like that. If there's a couple of Luigi-like people who are similar, but not ripoffs, that's fine with me. But if there's like 15 characters that are just repeats of what we already have, me and many, many others will be very ticked. That's just all there is to it.
 
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What if you had the choice of Dark Samus being a clone or being an AT?
I'd still pick Assist Trophy. Now if it were my most wanted character (Ridley) I might say different, but he couldn't possibly be a clone. Then again, as I already said, I don't think Dark Samus could either.

I think the development team first picks whether or not they will include a character, and then they come up with a moveset. So I don't think they just recycle movesets for the sake of including new characters if they have time to develop them (which is the case with Brawl).

It's not that I want fewer characters in general. I'm just saying that any character who is Brawl worthy could have a unique moveset, and there would still be enough characters to satisfy most people.
 

Aurora Jenny

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I think what the pro-clone people are trying to say is that development is pretty much done for all the major characters that are going to make it in as PC, AT, and otherwise. They work on a schedule and then use whatever time they have left to decide if they can add in any extras that were in a queue perhaps. Sakurai probably has a selection available for the PC stack and AT stack and some back-ups that are wait and see on the time limit. They're probably prepped to go either route. Clone, AT, you know. Of course, this is just conjecture on my part.

Me? I hear what you anti-clones are saying, and I understand, so don't chew me out, my preference is, if you're going to have them, go with the second takes at least and tweak the movesets so that even if they share similar moves.. the moves react very differently so you still feel like you're playing a different character. Or just Luigify them and make a couple of moves different.

That's my stance on things. I say if they're going to use clones, don't do a half-baked job on it. Treat them like you did Falco and Ganondorf.
 

True Fool

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Primarily directing at Meta_Sonic64, but as well to all others with the same opinion, why would you rather a character be an AT than a clone? If two characters fit the same moveset well enough, and can be given different attributes to make them play differently *foxfalco* , what the hell's the problem?
 
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Primarily directing at Meta_Sonic64, but as well to all others with the same opinion, why would you rather a character be an AT than a clone? If two characters fit the same moveset well enough, and can be given different attributes to make them play differently *foxfalco* , what the hell's the problem?
The point that seems to have been missed is that any character who could possibly be conceived as a clone character can also have an original set of moves. I don't think anyone is saying 'take the clones out', but rather 'make the clones original'. That solution makes both sides happy because the extra characters are included but their moves are unique.
 

Big-Cat

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The point that seems to have been missed is that any character who could possibly be conceived as a clone character can also have an original set of moves. I don't think anyone is saying 'take the clones out', but rather 'make the clones original'. That solution makes both sides happy because the extra characters are included but their moves are unique.
Is this what we've been arguing about? Man, after going in circles, you get lost.

Here's how I see it

The characters who would become clones will either:

1. Have a unique moveset.
2. Have a semi-clone moveset.
3. Have a clone moveset.

In terms of benefiting likelihood, #3 is the best and is the worst case scenario. In terms of originality, #1 is the best and #2 is the middle ground.
 

Meta_Sonic64

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I still don't like the idea of clones. I also don't like being insulted for not wanting them either, but what does it matter. Just another name on the internet(Zoo-bellocks)
 

626key

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maybe, you should have unlockable costumes of them, like instead of unlocking falco, you unlock a costume of fox that looks like falco, same wit lucas and ness and mario and doc
 

Big-Cat

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maybe, you should have unlockable costumes of them, like instead of unlocking falco, you unlock a costume of fox that looks like falco, same wit lucas and ness and mario and doc
That's just moving them under one spot. Anyway, Ness ain't coming back and why go through the trouble of making a new model without bothering to make any changes?
 
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