what's wrong with cloned movesets?

[Meta_Sonic64]

Adding to this point:

Why do you think Lyn and Goroh were AT'd? Clones are easy to make, but ATs are even easier.

Ok then, it's pretty much settled. If an original or unique moveset can't be made, they'll become an AT. ATs are kind of a clone preventor then

 

[brawl_maniac]

People also preferred Ganon to be in at all over not being in. Look, I've made a game. I know what I'm talking about. There are excuses for it. Good reasons. I personally believe Ganondorf will have a new moveset in Brawl, because giving him one would have been top priority from day one. But there are other Ganondorfs for Brawl, make no mistake about that. Characters that deserve to be in, that fans clamor for, but due to time, money, and manpower concerns, they just aren't going to make it without recycling something.

Delaying a game is not something done lightly, especially one as hyped as Brawl. It costs a ton of money, skips big buying seasons and not least it irritates those gamers who look forward to its release. Sakurai does not have a bottomless pit of time, money and fan patience from which to draw. Nintendo's probably on him like stink on rice right now to get Brawl out of the door.

Yes, I prefer original movesets. I'd rather that the number of characters that make it in were limited by disk space alone, and that they all were beautiful, unique snowflakes. But that, my friend, is completely impossible, and I know it. Sakurai knows it. Claims of clairvoyance are not going to change it.

Gannon should have his own moves, because he was a boring character in Melee, and all i did was beat the crap out of him for being a clone.

gannon clone of capt.falcon=boring

original gannon moveset=interesting

also,i get what you mean about the game being delayed, people are probably getting mad at Sakurai for delaying the game a lot.I bet nintendo would probably not want anymore delays to get the sales up for them.And i will be pissed if it gets delayed again.

 

[Big-Cat]

Ok then, it's pretty much settled. If an original or unique moveset can't be made, they'll become an AT. ATs are kind of a clone preventor then

I wouldn't say that. Can you explain why Little Mac was made an AT or Stafy for that matter? I think it's because they would've had redundant movesets. As for Goroh, Lyn, Saki, etc., I think it's so there aren't so many sword users.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

I wouldn't say that. Can you explain why Little Mac was made an AT or Stafy for that matter? I think it's because they would've had redundant movesets. As for Goroh, Lyn, Saki, etc., I think it's so there aren't so many sword users.

Or maybe Sakurai thought a boxer or a star for that matter wouldn't fit in Brawl as playable.

 

[shinhed-echi]

One thing I'm sure everyone will agree on is...

If you had to choose for your most supported character to get in Brawl... BUT he could only make it in as an AT, or a CLONE... which would you choose?

I know at least I would choose a clone.

Clones are fine, as long as they keep them to a minimum (2 at most). Melee had a ridiculous ammount of clones, that not even Mortal Kombat had.

 

[KingKraken]

They lack originality. It's more like a half-***** character on the developers part.

 

[Big-Cat]

Or maybe Sakurai thought a boxer or a star for that matter wouldn't fit in Brawl as playable.

WTF? Not fitting in Brawl is an oxymoron.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

WTF? Not fitting in Brawl is an oxymoron.

Maybe to you, but not to Sakurai. He had the choice to make them playable, but didn't. I don't know as to whether it was moveset problems or him thinking they wouldn't fit, but he did what he did and we'll just have to accept it.

 

[brawl_maniac]

One thing I'm sure everyone will agree on is...

If you had to choose for your most supported character to get in Brawl... BUT he could only make it in as an AT, or a CLONE... which would you choose?

I know at least I would choose a clone.

Clones are fine, as long as they keep them to a minimum (2 at most). Melee had a ridiculous ammount of clones, that not even Mortal Kombat had.

Well,if it is the most supported character,i would choose clone.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Well,if it is the most supported character,i would choose clone.

Well of course you'd choose clone, but what would Sakurai choose is the real question.

 

[brawl_maniac]

Maybe to you, but not to Sakurai. He had the choice to make them playable, but didn't. I don't know as to whether it was moveset problems or him thinking they wouldn't fit, but he did what he did and we'll just have to accept it.

well, they would have been cool to be playable, especially Saki.But, they're ATs and we just have to live with it.

 

[brawl_maniac]

Well of course you'd choose clone, but what would Sakurai choose is the real question.

yeah, i know.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

well, they would have been cool to be playable, especially Saki.But, they're ATs and we just have to live with it.

Maybe Sakurai had a moveset problem with Saki, he said he could fit in. So Saki was AT'd, but it could be another reason.

 

[Big-Cat]

Maybe to you, but not to Sakurai. He had the choice to make them playable, but didn't. I don't know as to whether it was moveset problems or him thinking they wouldn't fit, but he did what he did and we'll just have to accept it.

Are you Sakurai? How do you know why he made them ATs? Anyway, not fitting in is an oxymoron because what other game has an Italian plumber, an anthro fox from space, an elf swordsmen, a girl bounty hunter, an electric mouse, an American psychic boy, a green dinosaur, a gorilla, and much more? Therefore, using the not fitting in argument is pointless.

 

[brawl_maniac]

Maybe Sakurai had a moveset problem with Saki, he said he could fit in. So Saki was AT'd, but it could be another reason.

it could've been a moveset problem or maybe he couldn't think of a final smash,because i can't think of one.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Maybe Little Mac didn't quite fit in the SSE?

I still hate the fact he became an AT.. but I gotta admit, he'd have NO SSE isssues...

I mean what would his plot be like? Mike Tyson taking over the boxing ring? :D

(Again: I'm a huge Punch Out fan, and still grieve the loss that Little Mac was when he was ATfied)

Little Mac could've been both, lack of a good moveset, and lack of SSE story..

Stafy... I have no clue, other than being obscure japan character (from which we already have Lucas)

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Are you Sakurai? How do you know why he made them ATs? Anyway, not fitting in is an oxymoron because what other game has an Italian plumber, an anthro fox from space, an elf swordsmen, a girl bounty hunter, an electric mouse, an American psychic boy, a green dinosaur, a gorilla, and much more? Therefore, using the not fitting in argument is pointless.

Not really, I'm not talking about their persona or who the characters portray. Sakurai has had reasons for not including characters b/c they wouldn't fit. Any one of those ATs could've had a unique moveset. I'll use Stafy as an example. Could Sakurai have made a unique moveset, yes. Although he could, let's say Sakurai observes Stafy closely and thinks, "Do I honestly think a flying star would fit into this game as a playable character?" And then he's thinks it wouldn't be right, so he makes him an AT. Simple. He may not be playable but he is still included for the fans. Although I'm not Sakurai, the "notting fitting" formula could work with some of these characters.

 

[courte]

well nes little mac no but snes little max would be in hyper mode all the time like I GOTS TO GO FIGHTS THE BAD GUYS!! and i don't know what role sonic would have but if everyone's gotta dark version i nominate

Scourge for Green Sonic Outfit

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

well nes little mac no but snes little max would be in hyper mode all the time like I GOTS TO GO FIGHTS THE BAD GUYS!! and i don't know what role sonic would have but if everyone's gotta dark version i nominate

Scourge for Green Sonic Outfit

You mean alt right? I think I saw one like that on Youtube. Anyway, there is an exception to the "not fitting" rule. It's not as pointless as people may think. Some characters actually couldn't fit the role as a PC, despite you coming up with moveset or ideas.

 

[Ghost07]

You guys seem to forget about balance....Com'on Falco with a rocket launcher?!?!?!
Okay He uses one in SFA but so does fox and everyone else. Faster characters have to have weaker attacks otherwise you get powerhouses. Also a rocket launcher would take away from his character....He's supposed to be agile. Original movesets are hard to balance and are usually why clones have to be made.

If the characters could do everything they could do in their game SSB would not be the game it is now.
If you don't think so. Imagine Sonic Homing Attack...Homing Attack.....over and over until you win.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

You guys seem to forget about balance....Com'on Falco with a rocket launcher?!?!?!
Okay He uses one in SFA but so does fox and everyone else. Faster characters have to have weaker attacks otherwise you get powerhouses. Also a rocket launcher would take away from his character....He's supposed to be agile. Original movesets are hard to balance and are usually why clones have to be made.

If the characters could do everything they could do in their game SSB would not be the game it is now.
If you don't think so. Imagine Sonic Homing Attack...Homing Attack.....over and over until you win.

Yes, but in this game's case, if you have to make them a clone, switch them over and make them an AT.

 

[Chiastic]

You guys seem to forget about balance....Com'on Falco with a rocket launcher?!?!?!
Okay He uses one in SFA but so does fox and everyone else. Faster characters have to have weaker attacks otherwise you get powerhouses. Also a rocket launcher would take away from his character....He's supposed to be agile. Original movesets are hard to balance and are usually why clones have to be made.

If the characters could do everything they could do in their game SSB would not be the game it is now.
If you don't think so. Imagine Sonic Homing Attack...Homing Attack.....over and over until you win.

a rocket launcher for falco isnt a real suggestion, its just a random example of how a character can be a clone, yet have different moves... a semi-clone or something. do you get the point???

 

[shinhed-echi]

^
But the rocket launcher is a trademark of HIS.

And speaking of balance, I wouldn't call the Falco Laser balanced..

And Falco WAS a powerhouse.

FWD Smash?
Unrecoverable SPIKE?
Spike Shine endless combo?
Laser spamming?
Spiking illusion?

Falco is ridiculously powerful! His only drawback is his terrible recovery. But it still doesn't make up for it.

 

[Ghost07]

^
But the rocket launcher is a trademark of HIS.

And speaking of balance, I wouldn't call the Falco Laser balanced..

And Falco WAS a powerhouse.

FWD Smash?
Unrecoverable SPIKE?
Spike Shine endless combo?
Laser spamming?
Spiking illusion?

Falco is ridiculously powerful! His only drawback is his terrible recovery. But it still doesn't make up for it.

Dude, Falco take one picture with a rocket launcher and you call it his trademark. Actually Falco is the best pilot on the star fox team not a rocket launcher master. Com'on now krystal takes a picture with a gatling gun, doesn't mean that here trademark.

Of course he was a powerhouse, I didn't say he was not. But he is a power house because he has fast strong moves. It's impossible to make a truly balanced character.

 

[Chiastic]

^
But the rocket launcher is a trademark of HIS.

And speaking of balance, I wouldn't call the Falco Laser balanced..

And Falco WAS a powerhouse.

FWD Smash?
Unrecoverable SPIKE?
Spike Shine endless combo?
Laser spamming?
Spiking illusion?

Falco is ridiculously powerful! His only drawback is his terrible recovery. But it still doesn't make up for it.

that's not even the point of this thread. rocket launcher or overpowered falco moves should be in a completely different thread. this thread is about general talk about cloned movesets.

 

[Ghost07]

a rocket launcher for falco isnt a real suggestion, its just a random example of how a character can be a clone, yet have different moves... a semi-clone or something. do you get the point???

You can make up many moves for a character, doesn't mean you should. There alot more to making different moves than you realize. Do you get the point???

 

[shinhed-echi]

Dude, Falco take one picture with a rocket launcher and you call it his trademark. Actually Falco is the best pilot on the star fox team not a rocket launcher master. Com'on now krystal takes a picture with a gatling gun, doesn't mean that here trademark.

Of course he was a powerhouse, I didn't say he was not. But he is a power house because he has fast strong moves. It's impossible to make a truly balanced character.

Actually many people would agree with me that the Staff is Krystal's trademark weapon, even if she only used it once. But well.. that's another matter. Being the best pilot really doesn't do anything for his movesets.. unless you say his Final Smash is riding an Arwing..

Hey, it IS possible to make a balanced character. But Falco (along with the other clones) were rushed material. No wonder he came out broken, and Pichu came out sucky.

In Assault they use a variety of many other weapons to choose from, and I'm sure they'll ditch his laser to give him something more unique.. But that's just me.

 

[Chiastic]

You can make up many moves for a character, doesn't mean you should. There alot more to making different moves than you realize. Do you get the point???

Sense... your sentence has none...
start a thread called "Falco shouldnt have a rocket launcher". i came up with that as a random example of how some random character could have a cloned moveset yet have some different moves... i dont care. give falco the blaster back but make his up-b attack have blue fire and be able to curb it a bit after it starts moving, whatever...

 

[shinhed-echi]

Sense... your sentence has none...
start a thread called "Falco shouldnt have a rocket launcher". i came up with that as a random example of how some random character could have a cloned moveset yet have some different moves... i dont care. give falco the blaster back but make his up-b attack have blue fire and be able to curb it a bit after it starts moving, whatever...

We're discussing decloning. Mind you?

And I was just doing what the thread title asks.

"WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CLONED MOVESET?"

Do you have something to add to the topic? Or do you just like telling people to make new threads for every word?

Oh noez!!1 I said 'WORD', I guess I should make an official 'WORD' thread now, shouldn't I?

 

[Chiastic]

We're discussing decloning. Mind you?

And I was just doing what the thread title asks.

"WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CLONED MOVESET?"

Do you have something to add to the topic? Or do you just like telling people to make new threads for every word?

Oh noez!!1 I said 'WORD', I guess I should make an official 'WORD' thread now, shouldn't I?

you should

 

[Ghost07]

Actually many people would agree with me that the Staff is Krystal's trademark weapon, even if she only used it once. But well.. that's another matter. Being the best pilot really doesn't do anything for his movesets.. unless you say his Final Smash is riding an Arwing..

Hey, it IS possible to make a balanced character. But Falco (along with the other clones) were rushed material. No wonder he came out broken, and Pichu came out sucky.

In Assault they use a variety of many other weapons to choose from, and I'm sure they'll ditch his laser to give him something more unique.. But that's just me.

Of course the staff her trademark weapon, I said the gatling gun was not.

How do you know the clones were rushed? Marth not a clone but he had one of the most broken movesets in melee.

I dobt they will ditch his laser gun. That's what they all used in 64. It fits Falco's play style the best. A different gun would go to Wolf if he make it in.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Of course the staff her trademark weapon, I said the gatling gun was not.

How do you know the clones were rushed? Marth not a clone but he had one of the most broken movesets in melee.

I dobt they will ditch his laser gun. That's what they all used in 64. It fits Falco's play style the best. A different gun would go to Wolf if he make it in.

Marth was just an unlockable. Not a clone. VERY different. Both were overpowered, but there still is a huge advantage gap between Falco and Marth. Falco is a top tier!

The fact that they used those guns in 64 is the main reason why this time it'll probably be gone. Falco will most likely NOT return with the 64 model, but with the Assault or Command design.

Honestly.. why keep clones when Sakurai has gone through the effort of giving us over 20 UNIQUE characters for Brawl already.. I'm sure HE won't want to look as if he got lazy in the end.

The quality of this game blows Melee out of the water. Sakurai himself said he was working on some characters' moveset FROM THE GROUND UP.

And it's worked pretty well until now... seeing we haven't gotten any clones.

 

[Big-Cat]

And it's worked pretty well until now... seeing we haven't gotten any clones.

You do realize that all the clones in Melee were unlockable and that every character we've seen is, presumably, a starting character excluding Sonic and Snake. We won't find out if there are clones until we either unlock them or Sakurai puts them up before we unlock them.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

You do realize that all the clones in Melee were unlockable and that every character we've seen is, presumably, a starting character excluding Sonic and Snake. We won't find out if there are clones until we either unlock them or Sakurai puts them up before we unlock them.

We've seen and know practically everyone's moves. No clones have been confirmed. We know this without even playing the game.

 

[Ghost07]

Marth was just an unlockable. Not a clone. VERY different. Both were overpowered, but there still is a huge advantage gap between Falco and Marth. Falco is a top tier!

The fact that they used those guns in 64 is the main reason why this time it'll probably be gone. Falco will most likely NOT return with the 64 model, but with the Assault or Command design.

Honestly.. why keep clones when Sakurai has gone through the effort of giving us over 20 UNIQUE characters for Brawl already.. I'm sure HE won't want to look as if he got lazy in the end.

The quality of this game blows Melee out of the water. Sakurai himself said he was working on some characters' moveset FROM THE GROUND UP.

And it's worked pretty well until now... seeing we haven't gotten any clones.

Dude read. I clearly stated that marth was not a clone. And Marth is 2nd on the tier list, falco is like the 5th or 6th. If you don't believe me search the forums. Just because they might use Assult design does not mean they will take away his blaster. No other gun for falco fits in SSB. Falco is a quick aggresive fighter and he need a quick gun to keep that playstlye. Fox and falco are like ken and ryu. I'm not saying falco shouldn't have different moves I'm just saying they have to fit his play style.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

Dude read. I clearly stated that marth was not a clone. And Marth is 2nd on the tier list, falco is like the 5th or 6th. If you don't believe me search the forums. Just because they might use Assult design does not mean they will take away his blaster. No other gun for falco fits in SSB. Falco is a quick aggresive fighter and he need a quick gun to keep that playstlye. Fox and falco are like ken and ryu. I'm not saying falco shouldn't have different moves I'm just saying they have to fit his play style.

But most likely he will not be a clone and get a new moveset to make him different from Fox.

 

[True Fool]

If the game's characters were all done and spectacular, and one of the developers said "Hey, while you guys are putting the finishing touches on that, I can make a few more characters with recycled movesets. It should be done before we even have to start on *whatever*." What's the problem? They aren't taking space from other characters, they were simple additions that the developers had time to put in before the game was finished, unlike making a new moveset which would take too much time.

 

[shinhed-echi]

Dude read. I clearly stated that marth was not a clone. And Marth is 2nd on the tier list, falco is like the 5th or 6th. If you don't believe me search the forums. Just because they might use Assult design does not mean they will take away his blaster. No other gun for falco fits in SSB. Falco is a quick aggresive fighter and he need a quick gun to keep that playstlye. Fox and falco are like ken and ryu. I'm not saying falco shouldn't have different moves I'm just saying they have to fit his play style.

I could've sworn Falco was still 2nd Tier...

I don't disagree to the fact that Fox and Falco are rivals, but they still need to set each apart from each other through some way.. it's not like they're Batman and Robin...

Usually, in anime you have the hero's rival be very different from the main character. And the same goes in videogames.

Look at Snake and Raiden. One uses guns and explosives, the other uses a sword.
Sonic & Knuckles, one's as fast as the other's strong. Completely different styles.


I'll drop the subject now.. I gotta go to the doctor. (I have this pain in the neck that's killing me, but I won't talk too much about it, or I'll be forced to make a new thread too)


Remember Brawl is not Melee 2, as SSB was not SSB 2.

Chances are you'll have to get used to a LOT of changes. Just like I went through with the new Ness and Luigi in Melee.

I don't really care what weapon they give Falco, as long as he's balanced.

 

[Meta_Sonic64]

If the game's characters were all done and spectacular, and one of the developers said "Hey, while you guys are putting the finishing touches on that, I can make a few more characters with recycled movesets. It should be done before we even have to start on *whatever*." What's the problem? They aren't taking space from other characters, they were simple additions that the developers had time to put in before the game was finished, unlike making a new moveset which would take too much time.

Or instead of being lazy, redundant, and unoriginal make a **** AT!

 

[Big-Cat]

We've seen and know practically everyone's moves. No clones have been confirmed. We know this without even playing the game.

Do you even know what you're saying?