What's the next move: Pikmins

[Berserker.]

Move #1 Tornado

Strengths:
+ Eats shields alive
+ Great damage racker
+ Outprioritizes most attacks/projectiles
+ High priority

Weaknesses:
- Some attacks can put MK out of it

What to do?

This is probably one of the most underrated tactics in the game against Metaknight. (BTW Lambchops figured this out in a tourney match against me back in April)

Snake is a character with lots of good tools for fighting against Tornado, but even then Metaknight can do a lot of "gay" things to still get reward from using it. Even at the highest level I see a lot of snake players getting shield poked and sucked off the ground against Metaknight, and even if they can shield the whole thing, MK can use the lagless landing as a mixup to make it harder to punish, and if you dont punish he can tornado again against your diminished shield.

Crouching against tornado can completely alleviate this problem.

MKs tornado does the most damage to Snakes shield when you tornado at an angle against his shield (top left or top right). From here you can "bite" the shield by moving on and off it (which causes it to shrink faster - See M2K vs. Allah for details). MK can do a no lag landing if he lands on the ground from a certain height. This is going to keep most MK players at a certain height for fear of being easily punished on landing. If you crouch you can force them to either try and beat you in a landing mixup or retreat.

You can crawl in either direction to mix this up, and if you already have a grenade on the ground you can limit MKs ability to land somewhere safely.

Also you can shield instantly out of crouching, which seems to make crouching against Nado more useful.

This probably means you can powershield tornado more easily just by crouching and waiting for it to come into your shield range.

I feel this is so underdeveloped that I dont know how much it will make a difference/replace other tactics, but I feel that most snake players dont seem to use it or know about it.

*Links to matches are in next sentence lul.*

Also another tactic that Radix (A very good Snake from Orlando Florida) showed me that I havent seen anyone else do is reverse grenading when you are caught in Tornado. He did it against me a few times in these matches and I'm not sure exactly how it works but apparently you flick the opposite direction and grenade so that the grenade comes out behind you and lands inside the tornado (otherwise MK can drag you inside the tornado if you try dropping nades).

- If you shield tornado, make sure you tilt your shield up so it doesn't shield poke your head.
- Grenades stop it, so grenade counter or throw nades if he starts it far away from some reason.

Move #2 Shuttle Loop

Strengths:
+ Extremly quick
+ Has invincibility frames (don't know the frame data though).
+ Has the annoying Glide afterward.
+ Can't be grenade countered.
+ An almost perfect OOS.
+ Lots of knock back at the beginning.
+ Great for getting MK out of tough situations.
Weaknesses:
- The glide portion can be grabbed before he can even attempt it.
- Glide portion can be Sheild grabbed.
- Sorta leaves MK open at the rise of the "loop".
Credit to 6mizu
What to do?

You can punish SL with a variety of moves. In the air it's telegraphed typically and avoided with an airdodge being the easiest method. I'm pretty sure aerials can, but it depends upon your positioning, if I recall. On the ground and it hits your shield, OoS Bair if MK is behind you, if not, I do not think you can punish it OoS. You can only punish MKs Glide attack or him canceling the glide with no glide attack.

Shuttle Loop is significantly weaker in the air when it comes to knock back. It's also SDI'able so that you can hit the uppermost hitbox to get sent back onto the stage. It's incredibly hard to do though.

MK can ground SL your nades and blow them up w/o hurting himself, but usually it wont kill us unless theres a really low ceiling.

MK's air SL is used more for gimping, and is the one we should be more worried about, because of the trajectory it sends us in.

Also for tornado put in the OP that you should footstool it whenever possible because then you can bair/uair through the middle or FF AD through it and punish

Utilt when timed right will clash and cancel out glide attack. However, I think MK gets the advantage after the clash. SNake is stuck in frames of flinching from the hit while MK simply stalls in the air a bit before getting no ending lag. Best method by far is to shield the glide attack and grab him if it's not spaced right. If it is, I do not challenge it further.

Move #3 Wario's motorcycle

Strengths:
+ It's Wario's recovery
+ It can be used a lot of ways
Weaknesses:
- Can be destroyed by box
- Not much of a problem
What to do?
It's not much of a problem, just taunt then the bike blows up. Not much to say

Move #4 Wario's air games

Strengths:
+ It's very good
+ Each areial attack has a specialty:
N-air: Oos
F-air: Gimp, poke
B-air: Space
U-air: Kill
D-air: Combo, shield eater
+ B-air has lag but can be AC
Weaknesses:
Unknown (Please suggest)
What to do?

Pivot grab. It's under utilized, but amazing. If we lacked our Tilts, we'd build our game around Pivot Grabbing, but the great tilts have blinded us to how amazing it is. Wario has no answer to a properly executed Boost Pivot Grab from Snake. Due to how Wario spaces, the worst that can happen to Snake is that he fails to get a grab, while ever other option is clearly amazing.

Basic info. SH Bair has landing lag making it punishable. Expect FH Bairs from Wario.

Dair is the work force of Wario's aerials. Pokes shield very well. Angle the shield up to avoid it. Due to it being a multiple hitting move, which means it is Shield DIable, but it won't help much. There are not many options to punish Dair OoS. Utilt beats out pretty much all of Wario's aerials when they come from the ground.

Wario's arieals: Properly space U-tilts, place a bomb 1/4 of the stage towards the edge so that he doesn't have as much space,(try 2 sneak in a F-smash), and place drop nades.

Move #5 Olimar's pikmins

Strengths:

Weaknesses:

What to do?


DISCUSS!​

 

[Zajice]

You're making a lot of threads lately...


- If you shield tornado, make sure you tilt your shield up so it doesn't shield poke your head.
- Grenades stop it, so grenade counter or throw nades if he starts it far away from some reason.
- http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=257913



MK's nado really isn't that hard to deal with if you have experience. He has a lot of scarier things he can do.

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah I felt like it. We were lacking some stuff

 

[Berserker.]

That was fast TIME FOR THE NEXT MOVE!!

Shuttle loop

 

[luke_atyeo]

grenade counter wont work on any mk who knows how to space the tornado properly

 

[Jamnt0ast]

if you're off stage, dodge it using a mixup of C4 airdodges and nair. You can only guess. If there are grounded loops going on you can always try to pull a grenade in the air and land infront of him and punish the up b with a utilt after power shield (assuming the MK tries to punish upon the snake landing, otherwise the grenade blows up?)


yeah.
Sloop is situational, but can **** up snake pretty bad offstage if you don't know what you're doing.

Just DI it so that MK has a harder time following up with another Sloop / Nair

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

You can punish SL with a variety of moves. In the air it's telegraphed typically and avoided with an airdodge being the easiest method. I'm pretty sure aerials can, but it depends upon your positioning, if I recall. On the ground and it hits your shield, OoS Bair if MK is behind you, if not, I do not think you can punish it OoS. You can only punish MKs Glide attack or him canceling the glide with no glide attack.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

One thing about tornado, your nair beats it, so if he nados and you have time to nair, nair him.

SL is gay, it can be devastating to your recovering, as he can SL you and get saved by you cypher, so you always want to recover high vs. meta. If you find yourself too low against him dont cypher, C4 yourself 1st.

 

[-Ran]

Shuttle Loop is significantly weaker in the air when it comes to knock back. It's also SDI'able so that you can hit the uppermost hitbox to get sent back onto the stage. It's incredibly hard to do though.

 

[Turazrok]

No invincibility frames in the air.

 

[6Mizu]

Shuttle loop huh?
Well let's see here.
Strengths-
Extremly quick
Has invincibility frames (don't know the frame data though).
Has the annoying Glide afterward.
Can't be grenade countered.
An almost perfect OOS.
Lots of knock back at the beginning.
Great for getting MK out of tough situations.

Weaknesses-
The glide portion can be grabbed before he can even attempt it.
Glide portion can be Sheild grabbed.
Sorta leaves MK open at the rise of the "loop".

What to do-
If an MK uses this don't bother trying to grenade counter it....it's pointless it won't work.
Let him get to the highest point of the "loop" then quickly use U-air. Other wise the only other thing I know is that.....wiat for the Glide atk.....which follows the Shuttle Loop and punish it's very easy.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Im just going to point out that only grounded SL has invincinbility frames, but air SL doesnt.

MK can ground SL your nades and blow them up w/o hurting himself, but usually it wont kill us unless theres a really low ceiling.

MK's air SL is used more for gimping, and is the one we should be more worried about, because of the trajectory it sends us in.

Also for tornado put in the OP that you should footstool it whenever possible because then you can bair/uair through the middle or FF AD through it and punish.

 

[6Mizu]

Yume I pointed out the invincibility thing.

 

[-Ran]

The hitbox for the glide attack is rather crazy, and actually leads to low percent combos. 5:15 of this video demonstrates the hitbox.

 

[6Mizu]

What vid you didn't post a vid.
LOL XD

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Anyone know if Uair/Bair can beat ouf SL all the time if MK does it when he is directly below you? I have done this before and seen it many times.

Oh yeah, Utilt when timed right will clash and cancel out glide attack. However, I think MK gets the advantage after the clash. SNake is stuck in frames of flinching from the hit while MK simply stalls in the air a bit before getting no ending lag. Best method by far is to shield the glide attack and grab him if it's not spaced right. If it is, I do not challenge it further.

Shuttle Loop is significantly weaker in the air when it comes to knock back. It's also SDI'able so that you can hit the uppermost hitbox to get sent back onto the stage. It's incredibly hard to do though.

But the knockback angle is way more favorable. Grounded simply goes almost vertical, if I recall, and aerial actually sends you sideways.

 

[-Ran]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldJyDJP8mbQ

 

[Berserker.]

I'll make a write up for shuttle loop.

Now the next move would be Pit's arrows

 

[Black_Heretic]

Since when is the bike a problem?

 

[Nic64]

He can taunt while he's on the bike, broken.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

He can run you over with the bike, now thats just not fair.

 

[Berserker.]

I just started with bike then after this obviously short discussion will go for his air games.

But for now, bike

 

[Black_Heretic]

ok, Bike:


no problem

next move

 

[Berserker.]

Okay skip bike now to Wario's air games

 

[Yumewomiteru]

actually if you pull a nade too close wario can bike, blow up u and the nade, and jump out b4 he gets blown up, just so you know.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not gonna edit the OP for a while, probably tomorrow, for now we keep discussing how to deal with air games of Wario

 

[Yumewomiteru]

ca mp

 

[Zajice]

Camp.


And grab him when you can so you get free stuff from a grab release.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

here is how I deal with aerial warios. ST Nades/Mortars/PivotGrabs (Better yet, BPGs, they seem to beat out pretty much all of wario's aerial approaches safely)

 

[Yumewomiteru]

Camp.


And grab him when you can so you get free stuff from a grab release.

i rather dthrow unless your going for the kill, you can really only bair, uair, or sourspot utilt him. He can sdi nair. so dthrow techchasing actually would do more damage. but yeah you can get a free kill at higher percentages when you grab him

and fyi if you shield grab him when hes on the ground and he doesnt press jump he will ground release, running or pivot grab will always force an air release.

 

[-Ran]

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. Wario can only ground release against Snake during a pummel. The reason he air releases is because his feet aren't touching the ground.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. Wario can only ground release against Snake during a pummel. The reason he air releases is because his feet aren't touching the ground.

no its being done to me before, shield grabbed a standing wario with snake, pressed nothing, he pressed nothing, he ground released, i ended up looking like an idiot.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

and fyi if you shield grab him when hes on the ground and he doesnt press jump he will ground release, running or pivot grab will always force an air release.

I'll prove you wrong.

Go to vs mode.

One controller be snake.
The other be wario.

Snake grab wario in all ways you can think of and do not touch the controller of the wario.

Wario is air relased no matter what.

 

[Yumewomiteru]

I'll prove you wrong.

Go to vs mode.

One controller be snake.
The other be wario.

Snake grab wario in all ways you can think of and do not touch the controller of the wario.

Wario is air relased no matter what.

no u, i did it against a human opponent, anyways its possible to ground release.

 

[Berserker.]

Okay since we're already done with air games

Vote for the next problematic move

Making the write-up

 

[napZzz]

stop making threads berk.

 

[Berserker.]

I'm not making threads, I'm making a write-up of this

Wait, stay with air games

 

[Black_Heretic]

I'm not making threads, I'm making a write-up of this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258336
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=256870
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258360
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258686
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=258275

thr eads

 

[Berserker.]

Yeah those are the threads I made cause I feel like we lacked a lot of stuff. We need to help increase Snake's metagame so we lacked:
[V] Doubles
[V] V.S. Move discussion
[X] Research thread
[V] ATs thread

We really needed these since Snake's metagame is freezing

 

[Black_Heretic]

Re-making threads Susa made a long time ago that died then isn't unfreezing Snake's metagame or doing anything of the sort. Discussion has stopped because there simply isn't anything to discuss that we haven't already discussed 30 times. Every thread you made we already had, but it got knocked off the front page because the regulars had no need of rediscussing the same things over and over.

You seem to have a very naive outlook on how developing a metagame is brought about. Making threads about how to deal with moves everybody already knows how to deal with doesn't help, neither does a thread about Snake combos and advanced techniques. You want ATs? Boost Smash is pretty much the most "advanced" thing any character has. Combos? This is brawl, son. We don't got that kind of thing in here, we have spacing, camping, and prediction. Things that can't be effectively taught. And its not even metagame development what you're doing, you're making threads that accomplish no task that were made multiple times years before you joined.

Sorry if I come off as more of a jerk then usual, but it needed to be said