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What was your reaction to the reveal of Lucina?

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Zzuxon

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Well, for starters, Sakurai has Namco working on the game... and Namco has more experience in making fighting games than Sakurai does. Why waste time purposefully making more clones and keeping Toon Link a clone? It isn't like Melee where Sakurai made clones in the last minute to buff the roster because he had only one year and 6 months to make the game on time for the Gamecube launch. It isn't like Brawl where Sakurai made/kept clones in the last minute to buff the roster because he spent too much time making Subspace Emissary.
The Toon Link criticism is valid. He is clearly making toon Link a clone on purpose.
However, Lucina is obviously a last minute addition. They had some extra time, thought, "Hey lets make a clone."
There is no way Sakurai planned 4 FE characters from the start.
 

Reginleif

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I never said she didn't deserve the spot. But she certainly doesn't deserve to be Roy's replacement either. With Toon Link over Young Link, it actually made sense. But the logic being used here... Roy is a fan favorite in the Smash Community. And to add Lucina to do the same thing that was originally the purpose of Roy, and do an even lazier job than before, is poor game development.
Roy is dated. He would never have been a great representative plus Ike took over his flame sword. There was literally no reason to bring him back other than some Melee fans missing him, the number which is significantly lower than those who want Mewtwo back. Lucina is arguably the most important/popular character to the biggest game in the Fire Emblem franchise who will also be included in the upcoming game SMTxFE. Plus, that female representation.
I agree with you though in regards to lazy game development. I'm still trying to find a good reason why they would allow Lucina to be a fullblown clone if they were so against that for every other character.
 

Ryan.

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Alright, enough lurking, my girl is in and it's time for me to start posting.


This is wrong, though. Not only have we continuously seen the page reformatted to fit characters in evenly, given what was revealed today, Robin, Lucina, and Captain Falcon alone would take up the top line (two newcomers and a veteran, just like we see on the second and third row right now), and so everything below them would be exactly the same as it was before this update if Lucina had a full size banner. Spacing is definitely not the reason for this.

The best reason I can think of is that she shares her video and artwork with Robin, so they just left her smaller box next to Robin instead of giving a bunch of space to either a repeat video/artwork or an otherwise lacking newcomer page.
Then who would go next to Pac-Man? We'd have a lot of unnecessary spacing.

That I think is also a factor.
 
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Parallel_Falchion

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Then who would go next to Pac-Man? We'd have a lot of unnecessary spacing.

That I think is also a factor.
I just explained it. Given that each row is 7 "boxes" long (with newcomers taking 3 each), Robin would take 3, Lucina would take 3, and Captain Falcon would take 1, making up a full row on their own. The rest of it would look exactly like it did before this reveal, so the second row would be Pac-Man, Palutena, and Ike, followed by Mii Fighters, Greninja, and Charizard, etc.
 

staindgrey

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After seeing Chrom: "Is that... The Fire Emblem guy that Gematsu predicted? Dammit. That thing's real. What was his name... Chrome? Or... something?"

After seeing Lucina: "Oh! It was a misdirect! Sweet. Female Marth. Whoever that is. Suck it Gematsu."

After seeing Falcon: "What the fu-- ABOUT TIME. Not sure what he's doing here, but now I'm excited."

After seeing Robin: "Oh, right. Hey... you. Good ol'... er... Are we reaching the point that we're getting characters I've never even heard of? Is that Shulk, maybe?"

Little while longer: "...he's from Fire Emblem, too. The ****."

Seeing female version: "Huh?"

Seeing Chrom return: "No. No."

Seeing he's not actually a full-fledged character: "...yes."

After the video was over: "Well, at least there were no Chorus Kids."
 

Ryan.

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I just explained it. Given that each row is 7 "boxes" long (with newcomers taking 3 each), Robin would take 3, Lucina would take 3, and Captain Falcon would take 1, making up a full row on their own. The rest of it would look exactly like it did before this reveal, so the second row would be Pac-Man, Palutena, and Ike, followed by Mii Fighters, Greninja, and Charizard, etc.
Hmm you must have a wide screen, each row for me only takes up four boxes with the newcomer counting as three. It wouldn't work for my screen, I know that much.
 

Parallel_Falchion

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Hmm you must have a wide screen, each row for me only takes up four boxes with the newcomer counting as three. It wouldn't work for my screen, I know that much.
Well, it would look different in that case, but it would still work, as we've seen the page be reformatted before to make things fit. You would just see a newcomer and veteran on each row, so it would look like:
Robin & C. Falcon
Lucina & Ike
Pac-Man & Charizard
Etc.
 

Ryan.

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Well, it would look different in that case, but it would still work, as we've seen the page be reformatted before to make things fit. You would just see a newcomer and veteran on each row, so it would look like:
Robin & C. Falcon
Lucina & Ike
Pac-Man & Charizard
Etc.
Continuing that pattern though would leave two veteran characters on the bottom and two empty spaces next to them, and they never had it like that before on the desktop version, they built from the bottom to the top so only the top would have empty spaces.

Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter. She definitely counts as a newcomer.
 
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MagmarFire

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My reaction was mostly what you see here.

http://youtu.be/0KHOKpY4lbo?t=35s

Well, internally, of course, since I was at work. But even then, I couldn't hold it all in, making one of my coworkers think I was having a seizure. XD
 

Parallel_Falchion

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Continuing that pattern though would leave two veteran characters on the bottom and two empty spaces next to them, and they never had it like that before on the desktop version, they built from the bottom to the top so only the top would have empty spaces.

Anyway, I guess it doesn't really matter. She definitely counts as a newcomer.
On my wider screen, before this update, the bottom row was Bowser and Pit with 5 empty spaces to the right. That's definitely not a problem.
 

Robert of Normandy

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But it doesn't have to be. I'm disappointed that Sakurai made Lucina a clone on purpose and kept Toon Link a clone on purpose... especially when there's no time constraints. I'm going to be more disappointed if Sakurai kept Ganondorf a clone of Captain Falcon on purpose.
What.

No really, what. I get that Namco is helping out and so there's probably more people on hand than in the previous entries, but how do you get from that to "time constraints magically disappear?"

When you're working on a project in the really real world, there will always be time constraints. There will always be deadlines. There will always be things that are cut or rushed to meet those deadlines. It's a nearly unavoidable fact of working.
 

Ryan.

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On my wider screen, before this update, the bottom row was Bowser and Pit with 5 empty spaces to the right. That's definitely not a problem.
Ah well alright. Just works differently with screens. Still though, they could be accomodating with what looks best on all screens. All YT videos I've seen including the developer direct at last year's E3 showed the format I have, so maybe it's the same format the web site designers have and they thought it would just look bad to have Lucina's block like that. After all, this is the only situation we have had 2 newcomers and 1 veteran shown at the same time.
 

Parallel_Falchion

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Ah well alright. Just works differently with screens. Still though, they could be accomodating with what looks best on all screens. All YT videos I've seen including the developer direct at last year's E3 showed the format I have, so maybe it's the same format the web site designers have and they thought it would just look bad to have Lucina's block like that. After all, this is the only situation we have had 2 newcomers and 1 veteran shown at the same time.
Maybe, maybe not. Either way, I can resize Firefox and it reformats the boxes automatically to fit with how small I make it, sliding characters around to make them all fit squarely from the top to the bottom, where there can be blank spaces. I don't think there's any one size they would try to cater to, but I don't think it really means anything.
 

Ryan.

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Eh. Either way, glad we discussed it, because it's such a confusing situation. The fact that she has the newcomer banner anyway is really all the information we need haha.
 

Venus of the Desert Bloom

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I for one am extremely glad that Lucina is playable character. I have never played Awakening; partially due to my 3DS being Japanese and playing Fire Emblem in Japanese is torture. That being said, I was instantly drawnin by her story and design which I felt could benefit from being in Smash Bros.

After her initial reveal and the hypestorm began to die down, people began to look at her in the trailer and screenshots and found her to be much like Marth with some calling her an out right clone. Just take a look at Lucina's sub-category and you will see threads discussing her being a clone.

I am not one to automatically call a character a clone, a character OP, or a stage banned. I think jumping to those type of conclusions are counter productive as we don't actually know the full details. But even I see Lucina having many similar attributes as Marth.

Therefore, I raise the question that maybe Lucina is a last minute addition. The roster was decided even before last years E3 as said by Sakurai however, it is possible that Lucina was one of the later characters added; possibly during Fall 2013 or early 2014. She has a potentially cloned move set, her model doesn't seem as polished as some of the older models, and Robin appears to be the focal point of the reveal trailer. He even has the official artwork poster in his official page while Lucina doesn't. It is piossible that Robin was planned for quite some time and Lucina was added as a requirement or an afterthought.

Do you think she is a last minute addition and what kind of impact could that have to other potential characters? If you think she is a last minute addition, why do you think that? Is it a bad thing that she could be a last minute addition?
 
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Curious Villager

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I think we are heading to the stages where they have more or less completed all the higher priority characters they wanted to get in and are currently working towards implementing any lower priority characters. Kinda like the "Forbidden Seven" and Toon Link, Jigglypuff and Wolf in Brawl.

So yeah, I think you could consider her a low priority "last minute addition". I wouldn't be too surprised if we got a few more characters like Lucina in the games.
 

Reila

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Not necessarily a last minute addition, but an addition that didn't take much effort/resources from Sora Ltd/Nintendo, like any other character with a "cloned"/similar moveset from previous Smash Bros titles. I do think her inclusion affect the chances of other characters, but not negatively. If she got in as a "clone" (I hate using this word, but so far she does seem to be extremely similar to Marth), then other characters might get in as well, like maybe Dixie Kong, but instead of being a Falco-like "clone", she would be more akin to Wolf? With similarities to Diddy, but also various distinct features?

tl;dr No, I don't think it is bad thing she could be "last minute addition" or "low priority" character. She in Smash, that is all that matters, right?
 

MechaWave

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She couldn't have been THAT much of a last-minute edition. Remember, they have to create these newcomer videos and they take time. There's always the possibility that her animations can change in the final game.

I do believe there could be more characters like Lucina added. Since they got all the higher priority characters, now Sakurai was probably thinking how they could at least expand the roster more within a timeframe, and got the idea to do clones again a la Melee style.

I am fine with this. Considering that Marth is apparently different in SSB4 than he was in Melee/Brawl, Lucina could fill the void with her small hitbox and IASA property changes.

Also, I find this highly hilarious because you can look at it that Lucina is copying Marth canonically because she masqueraded as him in Awakening.
 
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Homelessvagrant

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last minute is a subjective term. Considering how long it takes to make a fully developed character against say adding a clone into a 3 minute video, I'd say the fact that she was in a video that just aired yesterday has little credence on her development time. The game started development May of 2012. So even if they started on her sometime in Q! to Q2 of this year, almost two years after creating the initial roster of the game, I would consider her a last minute addition.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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Her popularity in Japan was determined back in 2012, and her popularity in the west took off almost instantly. I'd imagine that they've had well over a year to put her into the game based on popular demand. I'm not sure if we can really call that a late addition.
 

pupNapoleon

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I have no problem using the word clone- the word exists to serve its meaning, and as much as it can exist in a digital sense, it does in smash bros. Lucina is a clone, and Sakurai agrees- he states there are practically no changes!

That said, I'm happy enough at this point to see four fire emblem characters as I had wanted, even having never played the series, for what this may mean for the entire roster, that I seem to be uncaring about the addition of clones anymore.

I've also just reached a point that I've noticed such intense fan service and innate awareness of Sakurai to everything going on in the smash community, even during this development, that I have full faith in the roster which we will see.

Maybe I will not get all my wanted characters (Toad, Ray, Balloon Fighter, Duck Hunt Dog), but I do surely think we will get a good deal more, and all the strategies I've observed him using in terms of public speaking seem to be applied quite, quite nicely. Down to 'expect a small roster,' early on, because now every addition is an added delight.
 

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She's certainly not a rush job in terms of appearance. Her model is as well done as the other FE characters down to the brand on her left eye and she has a reveal trailer that obviously took a great deal of time and effort. The one complaint I have of her design is that her eyes are too soft; not as piercing as they are in the CG cutscenes in the trailer and in Awakening which is why she looks different but even that's a nitpick as by the token Palutena would a rush job too.

No, it all has to do with her moveset. Sakurai posted not an hour ago that she's a clone with altered damage ranges. Not a bad thing as, like I said in another thread, there's no accounting for taste; some might like Marth's tippers but some might like a more traditional or balanced approach as a swordsman. Ken vs Ryu. And like user Reila said if Sakurai is accepting clones, that opens the door for a lot of extra characters we wouldn't get otherwise for either resource, time, or balance reasons. But care certainly went into her and I feel like she's one of the few characters that should be a clone. I like the choice more than I probably should.

Of course if any of the whiners could actually speak with Sakurai on the matter, I have a feeling you'd be met with the response:


"Have you ever made a game?"
.​
 

Reila

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Well, for starters, Sakurai has Namco working on the game... and Namco has more experience in making fighting games than Sakurai does. Why waste time purposefully making more clones and keeping Toon Link a clone? It isn't like Melee where Sakurai made clones in the last minute to buff the roster because he had only one year and 6 months to make the game on time for the Gamecube launch. It isn't like Brawl where Sakurai made/kept clones in the last minute to buff the roster because he spent too much time making Subspace Emissary.
Namco is working in the game, but who is to say they are working in the roster of the game? Namco is well known to be masters of netcode, with their games having great online features, so I am fairly sure the reason Namco was contracted by Nintendo to work in the game is to improve the online experience in Super Smash Bros, which seems to be the focus of the games, as opposed to local multiplayer, like it was in previous iterations.

There are obviously time constraints and there is just so many characters you can add to a game in 2-to-3 years of development. There are so many things in Smash besides the characters, like the various completely different stages (most fighting games have stages which are only different in the background, Smash ain't like that), various different modes, character balancing, online features, etc etc. The roster in Brawl was already quite big for fighting game standards and it will be even bigger in Sm4sh, obviously.

So, my point is, clone characters shouldn't get as much hate as they get. Sora Ltd put they in the game as a bonus. Would you people prefer to not have Falco, Ganondorf, Toon Link and Lucina in the game just because they are clones? I sure as hell wouldn't. Even as clones, all of these characters, including Lucina, have their unique features and minor differences in their gameplays. None of them are 1:1 copies.

I am grateful Sakurai and his team are willing to have a little more work to add a few fan favorites to the game, even as clones, instead of simply ignoring them, which would be a far easier thing to do. If you don't like characters like Lucina, then that is fine, to each their own, but you will have to deal with it. Clones are a thing since the first game in the series. It is time to get used to them.
 

pupNapoleon

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Where are the differences between her and Marth stated, anyone? I cannot seem to locate them.
 

FlynnCL

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I thought about this too. I wouldn't be so surprised if she was originally created to be an alternative costume to Marth, but Sakurai liked Namco's model so much that he wanted to bring it out a little more.

In his daily picture posts, Sakurai sometimes seems really surprised and joyful with the hard work Namco put in these models. He seems really grateful.
 
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NotLiquid

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I don't think it was a last-minute decision, but I do think it was an effortless decision, making it hard to call it a waste of a character slot.

The problem with Lucina is that her existence in Fire Emblem is literally to serve as a Marth bait-and-switch. She is in part a descendant of Marth's and her fight style purposefully mirrors this. You can't really have Lucina as a character without running smack-dab into the problem of whether they should stay true to the character or make her unique for the sake of being unique. Adding her in was always going to be a bit of an issue, and that's why I thought if any female FE rep had to be represented it'd be Lyn or Anna. Lucina is the kind of character you plan a lot for despite the character itself looking like a last-minute addition, and Sakurai made it clear that the roster was already decided eons ago.

But I don't really have a problem with it either way. I'm shallow to the point that I prioritize who I play as and eventually main based first on design, and thankfully Lucina is a well designed character based on a good character. If nothing else, the footage seems to imply that her speed and air game is a bit better than Marth's based on second-hand accounts for the latter, so I'm kind of expecting a lot of mileage out of her. I don't think Sakurai went into too much detail about her since he avoids getting too technical on Miiverse posts and the sword gimmick was really the main thing about Marth.
 
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Ryuutakeshi

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I'd disagree that that's her only purpose. She gets outed at the beginning of Chapter 6. She then becomes the rallying member of the 2nd gen a la Genealogy and one of the main heroes of the game. She's trying to prevent the apocolypse. The Marth bait and switch is just a disguise and nod to Ylisse's history. Also, let's be honest, if you showed up and could convince people you were Marth, I'd imagine you'd be able to get some stuff done.
 

Reginleif

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I don't think it was a last minute decision anymore. IS pushed for Lucina so they took her and since FE already had 3 reps (considering Sakurai wanted Robin the most), they just decided to make Lucina a clone since it would be easy and at least make some sense as opposed to Chrom being the clone.
 

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i would HATE SAKURAI if lucina is a exact clone of marth
 

Hong

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Let's look at it this way:

On one hand, first you have Intelligent Systems. Lucina not only has survived from the earliest Awakening concepts, predating development of the game itself. She is the favourite of the development staff, and they ALWAYS consult with Mr. Sakurai for discussing potential candidates. Roy replaced Leif in Melee, Ike was chosen for Brawl, and so on.

And you have fandom. Lucina is the favourite for people who have played Awakening. Since the sales of her game dwarfs anything else the series has ever had, and for many of these people this is their first Fire Emblem, this will make her the most popular character overall barring fame related to Smash Bros exclusively. A character like Ike is very popular with people who played his game, but we are scarcely a handful.

So of course, there is plenty of reason to want Lucina in terms of desire for the character.

All that said, she does not offer much as a fighter, given she is just an ordinary sword user with little in the way of special abilities. Mr. Sakurai wants to spend precious development time on making the most diverse and interesting roster possible, and Robin is the most obvious choice of the three leads, for numerable reasons. That said, making Lucina the way they did vastly alleviates development load, and they don't have the guilt of not having a "full" new character for the series. Stuff like touching up Lucina's model or voice work doesn't take balance work. They could have made a "Marth 2" as a placeholder at any point during development and used that to balance attributes as needed.

So in summary, Lucina was indeed added because she is a cost-efficient addition that has the greatest appeal within her fan-base. It could have happened early or it could have happened late, all we know is it was quick and dirty.
 

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Glad to see Sakurai admitting that Lucina is pretty much a glorified alternate gender costume with her own roster slot.
 

Luigi player

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I'm glad she's in. If she wasn't a clone she probably wouldn't be in the game at all. Kinda sad she's almost the same as Marth though, but what can ya do.

Hopefully this means clone characters will have a higher chance now (Mewtwo confirmed? :troll:). It's better to have more characters!
 

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She should really have some more of her own moves, sure she pretended to be Marth but she was taught how to fight by Chrom.
0:13 / 0:32 - Could've done this for her Up B
0:28 - Could've had this for her Side B

She does return my hope for Lucas though.
 
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Speculator

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Toon Link and Lucina are clones because contextually it makes sense for them to be clones. Toon Link is representing the same 'character' as regular Link (not just the Hero of Winds) and therefore has the same non-incarnation-specific abilities. Lucina masqueraded as Marth, is a descendant of Marth and wields the same sword as Marth. It's not too much of a stretch to imagine who her fighting style might be similar to.

Time constraints have nothing to do with it. The development cycle of SSB4 will have been planned out carefully in advance, with no interruptions like Sonic to throw things off-schedule. They don't just add characters as they go, they allocate development time to include exactly what was outlined in the final design specification.
 

Arcadenik

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You seem rather agitated that she isn't an alt costume.
If I'm agitated, it's because Lucina is a waste of a slot. If Sakurai had to compare Lucina to male Wii Fit Trainer and female Villager, he's pretty much admitting that Lucina is a glorified alternate gender costume.

Sakurai also contradicted himself. In the first picture, he starts off saying that Lucina's abilities are identical to Marth's. But by the end of the second picture, Sakurai tries to justify Lucina's roster spot by claiming that there are small differences in her abilities.

Identical =\= small differences
 

Raido

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If I'm agitated, it's because Lucina is a waste of a slot. If Sakurai had to compare Lucina to male Wii Fit Trainer and female Villager, he's pretty much admitting that Lucina is a glorified alternate gender costume.

Sakurai also contradicted himself. In the first picture, he starts off saying that Lucina's abilities are identical to Marth's. But by the end of the second picture, Sakurai tries to justify Lucina's roster spot by claiming that there are small differences in her abilities.

Identical =\= small differences
"Her physical ablilites are identical to Marth's--it must be in her D.N.A. However, where Marth's power is concentrated in the tip of the sword, Lucina's attack strength is balanced throughout the weapon, which might make her easier to control. She's also a little bit shorter than Marth."

How is this hard to understand for you? Their physical abilities are identical but there are slight differences in the sword and height. How is he contradicting himself?
 
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