What Sakurai is Doing: An Essay Regarding the Possibilty of Multi-Dimensional Tiers

[M.K]

Haha, I love people who argue their points violently without listening to everyone else

:laughing:

 

[Overswarm]

What Sakurai is Doing: An Essay Regarding the Possibilty of Multi-Dimensional Tiers

Prelude: I'd like it to be known that I do not fully agree with sakurai and what he's doing but this is what I see him to be doing.

...

for that matter, should this center of mass be called a "tier value"?

....Dr. 5150?

 

[5150]

Look out, 5150. I'm not so nice, and I don't take a snotty attitude very well!

UH OHHHHHHH WATCH OUT BOYS AND GIRLS THE WOLVES ARE COMIN OUT TONIGHT!!!!!!!!!

Sadly, you're wrong. Speed is generally inclined to win against everything, because power is slow, and fast characters can induce flinch frames in slow characters' slow attacks. It's a very unbalanced system, I was hoping super armor would solve this problem but it seems to be barely utilized. Not impressed, Sakurai.

not necessarily. you are just limiting your view to melee. im talking about in general situations power is supposed to trump speed. its an opinion onhow i think sakurai wants his game.

This is two dimensional. Triangles have three SIDES, not DIMENSIONS.

Balance is not as simple as 1, 2, 3. You cannot balance a game with numbers, there are so many other things you need to factor in, such as whether the lag comes BEFORE or AFTER an attack, the range of a move, the maneuverability of the character during the attack (why Sheik and Marth's dash attacks are so valuable), whether the attack is a projectile, how BIG (and therefore how easily dodged, Sheik's needles count as "big" when grouped together) the projectile is, how MANY projectiles a character has, the effectiveness of recovery (which can also be broken down into how far it goes horizontally, vertically, how fast, and overall usefulness can be generated from knowledge of how much time the character will have to fall towards the stage before being in a workable recovery position, meaning how vulnerable to edge guarding they are during this time, invincibility frames, whether it is an attack or defensive, how hard it is to hit through [priority]) and then you have to factor in priority on projectiles...

The list goes on and on and on and on, and you cannot expect to fully understand the complexity of balancing a fighting game if you can simply sum it up as a triangle. Trust me, as a game designer, I know this. There are WAY more units that need to be considered than just power, speed and "control".

That said, an interesting theory. Oversimplified maybe, but interesting.

EDIT: I forgot weight. Not all power characters are heavier, for example Captain Falcon is actually the heaviest character in SSB: Melee, requiring 102% to kill off the top of Final Destination.

first off, i fixed my 3d problem. i was subconsciously thinking that it would use negative values instead of only positive values.

next, the numbers are generalizations to many aspects of the character. you can give me all of this "but there are SOOO many factors" bs but that's what summarizing and generalizing is for, so we can predict outcomes using simplifications, not have to calculate **** using a billion equations. i happen to think that this system COULD work for predicting outcomes of matches. and your reference of lag BEFORE or AFTER both falls under speed category, like i said before its a generalization. its a tool, which is just what the tier list is, a tool. this is just like quantum mechanics. it ignores all of the infinitesimal details and mechanics and just summarizes particle behavior quite accurately with predictions. that's what this is, but for tiers.

*uairs a Marth*
He survived, but went into the air! I'll give it another shot! Surely he'll die as you say.
Let's put metagame aside. Fox's moveset heavily implies that he was at least partially meant to juggle.

fox's uair can kill at 90 near the ground on some stages and as low as 50-60 near the top. i think thats fair to say it's a kill move and is good enough to be used otherwise but it's primary purpose is to kill and rack massive damage in fast hits

While the reason for Shiek is definitely subjective, so is the colour of the sky.
You can say that it's green all you want, but general conjecture speaks otherwise.
You can ask ANYONE as to why Shiek was made a transformation of Zelda, even Sakurai, and I can't imagine anyone but you explaining that she is there to be a "control character."

actually no because you can measure the color of the sky, dimwit. you still are spouting your opinion as if it is better than mine, which it CLEARLY isn't.

Oh, and by the way, what Sakurai is doing can be quantified very easily. Ask Sakurai.

that would not be "quantified".

The fact that I don't believe you, and that I was increasingly skeptical of you as I read your posts, shows at least SOME lack of credibility in your blood. That is a fact.

so this is what i love. i get accused of elitism, but then **** like this happens? and for what, because he doesnt agree with many of the viewpoints i have? so ironic its ridiculous.

I have a grip on the design of video games, and their mechanics. You could say that I "get them". You just made up a term and expected people to understand it. I reckon Shiek is a Vague character. If you don't get it, I think I'll need to spell out my next post in red for you.

~ Zanda

i did not "make up" anything. everything i posted is common knowledge to people who know this game and 64. it's honestly just you *****ing about how i didnt baby you, and i dont have time for that.

Lol @ 2d triangle.
You shouldn't write video game "essays" during math class.

gg

While reading through the whole thread (the concept interests me),
I've come to the conclusion:





You = ***-hole.



Your facts need straightening.

Wavedashing is not "a heavy removal of technical aspects of the game". You can still tech, and fastfall cancel, and even shine cancel, but these techniques do not make up the advanced player's Smash Bros. metagame. Smash is deeper than that, it's about mindgaming your opponent and getting attacks in during their lag, and then predicting their DI to implement combos. This core aspect was not removed from Brawl, according to players of the demo. Peach can still wavedash using DJC anyway, as a new momentum system requiring aerials to be performed can achieve similar effects to wavelanding.



Again, straighten your facts. Wavedash is an unintentional reaction of the game's engine, Sakurai did NOT program "if land while airdodging (wavedash);", he programmed an equivalent of "if land with _x momentum (apply friction //i.e. _xmomentum *= 0.5 or --)". You can prove this with the performing of "whiffed" and "perfect" wavedashing. Wavedashing IS a glitch. That being said, I am rather saddened by its removal.



Less technical like what exactly?



Since ****ing when!? You're really starting to irritate me now. B grade for English at best.
I'd define "control" as "Pikachu's upB > Ike's upB" or "Link's upB > Mario's upB". Your character's range has got NOTHING to do with how well they "control". Ganondorf "controls" badly in melee, because it's hard to get around the stage with him when you aren't attacking and can't stop moving during his faster attacks, yet he has FAR from the worst "range". Again with this blatant oversimplification.

Then again, "control" can ALSO be linked to speed. Yet "speed" to n00bs, can also equal frequent self destructs, leading to a reduced "control" value.

Therefore your "control" value means nothing, and is a poorly argued use of a variable.
It's much too vague, and also very dependent on the skill of the player. While speed and power can be expressed as numbers, I do not condone the expression of "control" as a number. "X amount of 'control points' LULULUL"

ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".

....Dr. 5150?

like i said, its gg. broomers aint got NOTHING on me.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".

In terms of CONTROL, Pikachu's upB is better than Ike's, because you have more CONTROL.
Is it really that hard to understand?

 

[5150]

In terms of CONTROL, Pikachu's upB is better than Ike's, because you have more CONTROL.
Is it really that hard to understand?

see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.

It isn't about actually using the control stick, it's about manouverability in general, but then again Ike is a bad example because he doesn't have that much control.

And before you say something about how I'm a ****** or something for confusing control with speed, Link has more control in his upB than Ike, but it's definitely slower.

And you define "control" as how good a character's throws are? I don't get it.

and your reference of lag BEFORE or AFTER both falls under speed category, like i said before its a generalization.

It's not so simple though, Smash isn't the sort of thing you can predict down to a fine art.

A move with three hours of starting lag is OBVIOUSLY less useful than a move with three hours of ending lag, especially if it is high damaging. You HAVE to factor this in, because starting lag and ending lag can completely change a character's playstyle. Starting lag is harder to work with than ending lag.

 

[SmashBro99]

your ignorance fouls this thread.

Irony alert.

 

[Kittah4]

see i shouldnt be responding but control doesnt mean using the actual control stick. if you cant figure that out then im sry, you could maybe aim someone about it but i wouldnt embarrass yourself anymore.

Geez, stop being so muleheaded. I hope you get warned by a mod for having such a poor temper and flaming so much.

I don't think it's really even debatable. How can you say that Pikachu's Up B does NOT have more control than Ikes up B? Since when is the word "Control" yours to define? You have more control over your position, and thus the playspace, when using quick attack, and you have almost none with Ike's Aether. What's your problem?

 

[5150]

It isn't about actually using the control stick, it's about manouverability in general, but then again Ike is a bad example because he doesn't have that much control.

And before you say something about how I'm a ****** or something for confusing control with speed, Link has more control in his upB than Ike, but it's definitely slower.

And you define "control" as how good a character's throws are? I don't get it.

no you dont. but ill help. "control" is referring to a character type that focuses on CONTROLLING the match. the best way to do this is through range and grabs, so someone like marth. speed can HELP control but you have to have control moves, like a shine, in order to be able to control a match. so it is diff than speed and power.

Irony alert.

OhOHhHh gUd1!!!

 

[Limey]

I really enjoyed the first post. I'm not competitive so i don't use tiers, but it was easy to understand and i agree with the way of balancing you were talking about. Really interesting read!

Any other posts you posted made my opinion of you go down a little, though. Granted, there are people trying to get a rise out of you, but you're not giving some people a chance.

Especially SSJ4Kazuki, who i think posted a decent reply, but you just say it's ******** and you refuse to comment on it. I mean, come on.

And in response to your most recent post, i don't think he's embarrassing himself. You're just refusing to accept anything he says, or even respond in an intelligent way. I mean, well done for calling him a ******. How did you think that up?

 

[Cra$hman]

warios gonna have super low control cause you can't control him very well while riding his super fast bike

 

[5150]

Geez, stop being so muleheaded. I hope you get warned by a mod for having such a poor temper and flaming so much.

I don't think it's really even debatable. How can you say that Pikachu's Up B does NOT have more control than Ikes up B? Since when is the word "Control" yours to define? You have more control over your position, and thus the playspace, when using quick attack, and you have almost none with Ike's Aether. What's your problem?

see you just shouldnt post, becasue you obviously have not played the game long enough to know. i really wish this site had some sort of test to see if people should have an account or lurk moar like you should.

 

[Nabassu]

ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".

The dude is telling you what his definition of a control character. It is not a precise term, you did not explain it at all, and if you ask fifty people here on the boards you would get fifty different answers. It is not like it is a standard term the pros use, stop pretending that it is.

At any rate, your entire essay takes astounding leaps of faith in its foundation before trying to leap into some form of rational higher thinking. It is simplistic, lacks any backing, and subjective to the point of useless. For example, what type of character is Captain Falcon, speed or power? He runs and jumps fast, but it is easy to see that the designers were trying to give him powerful, laggy moves. His own trophy states this. So which of the three does he counter? Where does Mario fit in all this, or really any character?

 

[5150]

warios gonna have super low control cause you can't control him very well while riding his super fast bike

ROOOOFLLLLLL

"Tooooooo faaaaaaaaast!!!"

 

[Kittah4]

see you just shouldnt post, becasue you obviously have not played the game long enough to know. i really wish this site had some sort of test to see if people should have an account or lurk moar like you should.

I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.

Oh, just leave it alone already. More than half this thread is just trying to start an arguement anyway.

 

[Darkpaladin of Chaos]

Well 5150 sure found an effective way to pass time...

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Oh, just leave it alone already. More than half this thread is just trying to start an arguement anyway.

That's why it's so much fun

 

[5150]

[ok, ladies and gentlemen. THIS is the kind of post that just doesn't need to be posted. it honestly borders a level of *********** i haven't seen on smashboards in a WHILE. so im not going to respond to this and ill let you flame me for that but i honestly dont have the time or patience to honestly read **** like "i'd define 'control' as pikachu's upb > ike's upb".]


The dude is telling you what his definition of a control character. It is not a precise term, you did not explain it at all, and if you ask fifty people here on the boards you would get fifty different answers. It is not like it is a standard term the pros use, stop pretending that it is.

At any rate, your entire essay takes astounding leaps of faith in its foundation before trying to leap into some form of rational higher thinking. It is simplistic, lacks any backing, and subjective to the point of useless. For example, what type of character is Captain Falcon, speed or power? He runs and jumps fast, but it is easy to see that the designers were trying to give him powerful, laggy moves. His own trophy states this. So which of the three does he counter? Where does Mario fit in all this, or really any character?

#1 if you ask 50 people it depends on who you are asking. if you asked intelligent people from say the mw board the answer would probably be what it really is. if you ask 50 brawl disc people you'll get "IKE IS EASIER THAN PIKACHU".

#2 accusing my essay of lacking backing and real hard proof is pointless. its not a doctorate thesis. its MY OPINION ON WHAT SAKURAI IS DOING. it is COMPLETELY subjective. ill say it one more time

READ THE TITLE OF THE THREAD

to answer your question, falcon is a control character. to be completely honest, he is the most balanced character in melee because he has a little power, a little speed, and fairly decent control. and b4 you throw up ****ty arguements ill stop you. no hes not that fast becasue run speed=/= fast and the knee does not make him a power character.

mario is sakurais way of making a generic character, but he made him so generic that he doesnt really excel at anything. hes just a pos.

 

[5150]

I can almost guarentee that you've played about as much Brawl as me, that IS the game we're discussing, right? Instead of qualifying your arguments, you just flame. You are a poor arguer and debater because you HAVE no arguement, just lfames.

you are trying to deal with my essay as if it isn't a viewpoint. READ TITLE THX.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

no you dont. but ill help. "control" is referring to a character type that focuses on CONTROLLING the match. the best way to do this is through range and grabs, so someone like marth. speed can HELP control but you have to have control moves, like a shine, in order to be able to control a match. so it is diff than speed and power.

Thanks for explaining that in your first post

Maybe you shouldn't assume everyone's been smoking the same thing as you, perhaps we can't see into your mind. Because to me (and probably a few others), you poorly defined "control".

 

[krabbymcnabby]

Intresting theory and I agree. Most people have given kirby and bowser more praise because everyone elses aspects were mained to there types, wait, is this what you mean?

 

[IvanEva]

By "control character" I figured he was refering to those characters that excel at influencing where an opponent will be or where he cannot go. Prime examples would be teleporters, long-reach characters, or projectile spammers (like Cable from Marvel vs. Capcom, Urien from Street Fighter III, Marth from Melee, etc.). Controlling your opponent can be crippling, if only psychologically.

lastly, and to finish this post, i didnt spell out control because this post i assumed, and i dont know why i did, but i assumed people who "got it" would be reading this. apparently brawl disc needs things spelled out in big red letters for it to click.

I wouldn't mind it if my Brawl disk said 'Brawl' on it, in big red letters. I mean, what if I get it mixed up with some of my other games? What will I do then!? I mean, I can assume that I'll be able to instantly recognize it, I'm not sure why I do, but I'm assuming that I'll just be able to "recognize it" among my other games (all of which are labeled for those fools who can't tell their games apart).

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Intresting theory and I agree. Most people have given kirby and bowser more praise because everyone elses aspects were mained to there types, wait, is this what you mean?

Maybe you should read the thread, it might turn out that you're not getting it at all

 

[5150]

Thanks for explaining that in your first post

Maybe you shouldn't assume everyone's been smoking the same thing as you, perhaps we can't see into your mind. Because to me (and probably a few others), you poorly defined "control".

i stupidly thought that i wouldnt need to. but htis is brawl disc, what can u do?

 

[Nabassu]

Oh, Mario is pos? Last I checked he was fairly high on the tier list and winning some pretty major tournaments. I suppose it is not like that matters…

 

[XACE-K]

Why do you believe Ice Climbers will be high tier? I understand you saying Peach but I think the Ice Climbers will remain middle tier. As for what melee was supposed to be, I have the same feeling.

 

[5150]

By "control character" I figured he was refering to those characters that excel at influencing where an opponent will be or where he cannot go. Prime examples would be teleporters, long-reach characters, or projectile spammers (like Cable from Marvel vs. Capcom, Urien from Street Fighter III, Marth from Melee, etc.). Controlling your opponent can be crippling, if only psychologically.



I wouldn't mind it if my Brawl disk said 'Brawl' on it, in big red letters. I mean, what if I get it mixed up with some of my other games? What will I do then!? I mean, I can assume that I'll be able to instantly recognize it, I'm not sure why I do, but I'm assuming that I'll just be able to "recognize it" among my other games (all of which are labeled for those fools who can't tell their games apart).

see THIS is why i dont post. he doesnt even know what brawl disc is. ITS BRAWL DISCUSSION YOU 13 YR OLD.

 

[5150]

Oh, Mario is pos? Last I checked he was fairly high on the tier list and winning some pretty major tournaments. I suppose it is not like that matters…

#1 name these "major" tournaments
#2 hes so high because everyone below him is so garbage. there are only 5 REAL characters in competitive melee, and mario is not one of htem.

Why do you believe Ice Climbers will be high tier? I understand you saying Peach but I think the Ice Climbers will remain middle tier. As for what melee was supposed to be, I have the same feeling.

longer freeze frames = super easy wobbling. IMHO he is prob gonna get banned if that holds true.

 

[DeuceBlade]

I didn't know tiers exist?

 

[5150]

I didn't know tiers exist?

lol

WHY SO SERIOUS?

 

[Rhubarbo]

Good show! I don't know why people are complainig Brawl is less technical. Technical things were wavedashing which was actually a glitch. It was an accident and it ruined the balance of the game. L canceling was made automatic, that makes the game more fluid. It was pretty silly if you ask me to press a button after an aerial to reduce lag.

Strategy is playing a higher role in Brawl's gameplay, and that's awesome!

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

i stupidly thought that i wouldnt need to. but htis is brawl disc, what can u do?

Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!
The word "control" could be interpreted both the way I assumed, AND the way you assumed!
It doesn't mean that because I didn't think of your way first I'm stupid!

----

TaroNuke said:
"3 types, speed, power and control"
TaroNuke said:
he didn't even define control
TaroNuke said:
what do YOU assume control is?
BlasterBoy says:
Well, I said how easy you can operate a character to their full potential
TaroNuke says:
...elaborate
BlasterBoy says:
Ok, in 64 and Melee, Captain Falcon is pretty quick
BlasterBoy says:
If you're not good at controlling his speed, you might end up killing yourself.
TaroNuke says:
so that's how you defined control
BlasterBoy says:
uhh
TaroNuke says:
well, the guy (5150) called me a ****** for thinking like that

----

 

[5150]

Good show! I don't know why people are complainig Brawl is less technical. Technical things were wavedashing which was actually a glitch. It was an accident and it ruined the balance of the game. L canceling was made automatic, that makes the game more fluid. It was pretty silly if you ask me to press a button after an aerial to reduce lag.

Strategy is playing a higher role in Brawl's gameplay, and that's awesome!

you get it, but i disagree about the less technical, i think its a negative thing. but thank GOD you actually got the post.

Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!
The word "control" could be interpreted both the way I assumed, AND the way you assumed!
It doesn't mean that because I didn't think of your way first I'm stupid!

----

TaroNuke said:
"3 types, speed, power and control"
TaroNuke said:
he didn't even define control
TaroNuke said:
what do YOU assume control is?
BlasterBoy says:
Well, I said how easy you can operate a character to their full potential
TaroNuke says:
...elaborate
BlasterBoy says:
Ok, in 64 and Melee, Captain Falcon is pretty quick
BlasterBoy says:
If you're not good at controlling his speed, you might end up killing yourself.
TaroNuke says:
so that's how you defined control
BlasterBoy says:
uhh
TaroNuke says:
well, the guy (5150) called me a ****** for thinking like that

----

so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.

 

[Kittah4]

so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.

You really deserve a warning. You don't own the word "control". Your "talk about my views and definitions when I haven't even described them properly" attitude is tiresome.

Also your lazy acronyms and shortenings and lack of shift key is kind of funny too. Stop being an elitist.

 

[Egret]

u make some good points "fiveonefiveoh" but overall ur logic is flawed

i must say u don't really know what makes a charcter 'control'
like for example i play a control style link cause i confuse my opponents w/projectiles and then i go for the spin attack kill but my bro plays a fast link that uses his kick attacks and sword swipes more

also calm down dude, geez, u dont need 2 flame people just cuz they express a different opinion, most of them understand it better than u anyway


It seems unlikely that wobbling will return in any form. Very likely some adjustment to the ice climber's grab game (like preventing one IC from tilting while the other is grabbing) will be implemented.

This has been an interesting read that has shed some light on possible ways characters are created in relation to each other and I thank you for writing this and putting it up.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

so 2 ******* had an aim convo, congrats.

O_o; vvvvv

Stop acting as if anyone who doesn't think like you is stupid!
The word "control" could be interpreted both the way I assumed, AND the way you assumed!
It doesn't mean that because I didn't think of your way first I'm stupid!

 

[DarkDragoon]

>.>
5150.
Calm down.
Calling people ******* does not, in any way, help them view the issue as you do.
You should instead, put a more specific posting of what "control" means.
I assumed control characters were like a Tech.Fox, where you got more out of the characters based on the stunts you could pull.
I suppose the "control the speed on Capt.Falcon" would fall into that somewhere...

Please don't call me ******** as well, as I am not a casual smasher, and I do hold respect for the insight you've brought in the essay, just very little respect with the follow through.

-DD

 

[5150]

u make some good points "fiveonefiveoh" but overall ur logic is flawed

i must say u don't really know what makes a charcter 'control'
like for example i play a control style link cause i confuse my opponents w/projectiles and then i go for the spin attack kill but my bro plays a fast link that uses his kick attacks and sword swipes more

also calm down dude, geez, u dont need 2 flame people just cuz they express a different opinion, most of them understand it better than u anyway


It seems unlikely that wobbling will return in any form. Very likely some adjustment to the ice climber's grab game (like preventing one IC from tilting while the other is grabbing) will be implemented.

This has been an interesting read that has shed some light on possible ways characters are created in relation to each other and I thank you for writing this and putting it up.

thanks for your reply, but i respectfully will tell you you dont know what you are talking about. you are an upb link. end of discussion.

 

[Card]

Although I commend you on putting so much effort into this 5150, I will have to respectfully disagree with your opinion.

What I have a problem with, is how "bare" your theory has become. You have really stripped away everything and anything that Smash is about, and somehow believe that it can all be simplified into 3 tiers (Control, Speed, and Power). To be honest, I find this to be completely ignorant of everything that Smash Bros stands for. Characters in Smash Bros are so complex in the way they can be used, with so many different variables in combat, that its just asinine to base everything a character on 3 tiers.


In my opinion, 3 tiers isn't even remotely close to the amount of tiers needed to describe a character in Smash Bros. I'd wager it would be more along the lines of 50 tiers in order to be even a somewhat accurate prediction of a character... and even then it wouldn't be close since the idea of taking an abstract concept and trying to solidify it is practically impossible.

I mean some blatantly obvious tiers that you are missing are Recovery, Edging Ability, Mobility, Stage Adaptability, Weight, etc... etc... the list literally goes on, and I am sure I could find beyond 50 tiers to rate a character off.

Just with your 3 tiers I can already see problems in them.
Control... You (might I add... poorly) stated that Control is "How a character takes control of a match"... how exactly do you place a VALUE from 1 to 10 on this fluid concept? What makes you so certain that Pikachu has a Control value of 4 instead of 6 or 7 or even 10? How many arguments can you use to back it up? How much value does each of your argument hold? How do you prove that each argument has a certain value with evidence to support it?

Power... What proves that Bowser has the most power? I can guarantee you that Peach doing a Down-Smash on a bad DI'd Fox can cause double damage than a Bowser Foward-Smash. Yet does this make Peach more powerful than Bowser, who is mainly constituted as a "All Power, No Speed" character to begin with? Not to mention, I think most people can agree that Fox has more power than Bowser in all aspects. Just because a characters move does more %, doesn't mean that the character is instantly stronger.

Speed... What exactly are you basing this off? How fast a character runs? How fast a character jumps? What about how high a character jumps? What about how long/short a characters dash is? How about Walking speed? is that not important as well? Wave-dash length has no factor as well? I don't know about you but on Yoshi Island Bowsers can whirling fortress sweet-spot the edge, do their speedy attack recover (probably the fastest edge attack in the game), and then repeat the process in a variety of different ways. They end up getting very quick Bowser, yet why is he so low in the speed department?

It's just a completely slippery situation to actually put numerical values down.


you mention that "we discover a strong use for Dededes Down+B, his Power goes up"

Theres so many variables as to WHY that statement is tremendously wrong. Here I'll list just a FEW reasons why that statement is horribly wrong;

1. How many points does Dededes Power go Up?
2. How did you decide that it goes up X points?
3. Which character opponents does this affect the most?
4. Why does his Power go Up instead of his Control?
5. Why doesn't his Power and Control go up?
6. Why don't the above values factor into how high his power value goes up?

and the list goes on... and on... and on...


There is a reason that we don't base our tier lists off of something like this. You are most certainly NOT the first person to think of putting numerical values on a character. Simply because it's almost impossible for a Human Being to decide on a numerical value in a category for a character, especially with so many different moves and attacks which are all useful in a variety of situations, stages, and against different types of characters.


I also don't know where you pulled out that Peach and Ice Climbers will be high tier. You are literally basing that off of nothing. We have a game demo that has not even had Ice Climbers playable, and we don't even know who the entire roster will be, or how the physics will reacts, or how.... gosh there are SO many variables to consider, it literally is IMPOSSIBLE to make an accusation like that. Similar to your entire essay, you are trying to do something that is almost impossible to do due to the insane amount of factors and variables in the game.



So like I said earlier, I will have to disagree with your entire theory in saying that Smash is all about the Chaotic Game play. Smash isn't a scientific game which requires tons of frame data and pin-point positioning like some other fighting games. Smash isn't about labeling a character with numerical values in order to find its place on a tier list. You could say that A lot of our tier lists are based on "Feel" more than anything (On the contrary though, Tier lists are also dictated by Tournament Results). People feel that Fox is stronger than Bowser and Pikachu, it has nothing to do with numerical values or charts, and we most certainly do not need a chart to prove our point.

So simply put, the chaotic game play of Smash Bros simply makes your entire theory impractical and entirely not worth the effort.


PS: I also must say... you are being quite rude to the majority of the posters.... When they inquire on something in your theory, instead of flaming, you should explain your point of view even further so that they might understand.