What realistic changes could you see Zelda getting in the upcoming patch?

[BJN39]

melee uair with brawl kill power

There was actually nothing better about Melee Zelda UAir in comparison to Brawl. :^) same frame data as Brawl, but it has a smaller and weaker hit-box. The only advantage it has would be L-Cancelling.

Unless, of course, you meant you wanted it to have a smaller hit-box...

 

[Meek Moths]

is that so?? i though the hitbox was gigantic but it had low kill power.

then i just want it to stay how it it but be spammable like any other normal upair

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

Melee uair is hillariously bad. The hitbox looks like:

but the hitbox is actually like:

Brawl uair is the best. I think if she were simply given Brawl uair and usmash back that'd already improve her a ton, and it isn't that much to ask for

 

[Macchiato]

I think the main reason that her Uair isn't bad is because it can be comboed into. It's not that strong, and it's laggy. Imagine brawl Uair in this game. 50% kill combos

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

It would be ridiculous. Dthrow to uair would kill at 70% w/o rage and probably like...50% with 150% rage. Craaazzyyy

 

[frest123]

Yes, I def agree that Ftilt was better off as a combo move (like in Brawl/PM). What was said about FW as a kill move I agree with too. As many have said before, against skilled players, elevator just doesn't work so what's really the point of having such a useless option? Might as well have all dem buffs if it means losing something that technically doesn't work.

Would really be nice to have less landing lag with Uair. Less lag in general. I mean it'd be an interesting balancing dynamic. Since it kills later than Brawl, why not have it be something spammable? Its spammable nature would reduce its effectiveness as a kill move due to staling making it that you have to use it more smartly at kill percents.

How could I miss the KB increase for Bthrow? I sincerely want that too. Against people that actually DI, it can't even kill at 140% ON THE EDGE OF THE STAGE. Ok, maybe that's a bit of an exaggeration but it's surprisingly weak, you have to admit.

In regards to Phantom, I'm quite fine with just using Phantom Strike. I love it. Though the loss of its property as a kill move is shame, its ability to space better is what I love. I feel maybe they should increase the damage of Phantom Strike a little more to maybe be 35-ish%. Either that or reduce its cool down/charge time even more.

Regarding Nair, I think it would be a lot better as a move if it just came out faster. You could then use it to get out of combos, a last minute commitment upon landing, etc. The hitbox being increased would be helpful too.

 

[Macchiato]

It's nowhere near a useless option, the elevator still works on skilled players. I'd take it over brawl.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Less lag on Ariels, like seriously they ALL of some significant end lag which is rediculous. Some of them still have some noticeable ending lag.

Maybe stronger throws? Especially Bthrow, let it kill at like 125.
Up throw let it have higher base knockback or something with slightly higher Hitstun to allow possible FW.
DThrow.... Maybe slightly more damage? Or at least give it less end lag or something.

SideB should be stored of course.
Dtilt is mostly fine, but maybe let it hit slightly lower so it has a better chance of hitting people on ledges and possibly let it combo into other moves at even high percents by giving it much lower KBG?
Ftilt needs less end lag and yea that blind spot, I have had happen before.

Give Usmash more range and let it combo into itself like before.

I think Dsmash needs more range, we all know Dtilt has more range then It does itself.

 

[Phenomiracle]

We've all made our Christmas lists for a Zelda that doesn't actually suck, so I won't repeat mine.

Let's assume that Sakurai actually decides to meet us around a quarter-way to our expectations of a viable Zelda.

Why Nair is put through 22 frames of endlag despite only having a total damage output of 7% (11% if caught in the rear) is beyond me. This move needs buffs all around, and is the mostly likely to receive them. More damage, and less endlag, 14 frames at the very most.

Usmash and Dsmash are all the most likely of Zelda's moveset to see much needed range increases. Uair's KB growth and damage are likely to see minuscule increases.

Ftilt might see less endlag.

 

[BJN39]

We've all made our Christmas lists for a Zelda that doesn't actually suck, so I won't repeat mine.

Let's assume that Sakurai actually decides to meet us around a quarter-way to our expectations of a viable Zelda.

Why Nair is put through 22 frames of endlag despite only having a total damage output of 7% (11% if caught in the rear) is beyond me. This move needs buffs all around, and is the mostly likely to receive them. More damage, and less endlag, 14 frames at the very most.

Usmash and Dsmash are all the most likely of Zelda's moveset to see much needed range increases. Uair's KB growth and damage are likely to see minuscule increases.

Ftilt might see less endlag.

To be fair, all but 1 part of 1 of Pit's/Dark Pit's aerials do damage on that spectrum, (Mostly between 7-10%.) AND have 20-24 frames of landing lag. That said for Zelda it would hold a LOT of weight if NAir had less landing lag.

 

[Phenomiracle]

To be fair, all but 1 part of 1 of Pit's aerials do damage on that spectrum, (Mostly between 7-10%.) AND have 20-24 frames of landing lag.

With a longer lasting hitboxes and larger ranges, particularly his Nair.

 

[BJN39]

With a longer lasting hitboxes and larger ranges, particularly his Nair.

Well, actually only a couple of them have longer duration, but yeah all things considered his aerials with comparable damage/landing lag are technically better. I'm not going to try and keep an argument where I agree Zelda shouldn't have so much landing lag on NAir.

 

[Princess Toady]

I could see her getting nerfed, to compensate for the humongous 0.7% buff they gave to her up tilt previously.

Or because lol Farore Wind 2 stronk.

So realistically speaking, I have no hopes for her, which is sad. :-(

 

[Rickster]

I just want small things...less lag on Nair would be AMAZING for setting up all kinds of things....Dtilts, Grabs, Jabs, Farore's...just this small change could do wonders.

And a bigger hitbox on Usmash. They don't even have to increase the KB (although that would be appreciated too). I primarily used it as a defensive option back in Brawl anyway (aka I spammed it so much it wouldn't KO reliably, lol)

Fixed Smashes too. Don't see it happening though.

EDIT: Forgot to mention less Phantom lag. The interruptible frames idea sounds good.

 

[Princess Toady]

TBQH, I wouldn't mind trading this SSB4 Zelda for the SSBB one. Even though Farore's Wind had to be changed, I kind of feel like even with the absolutely awful Farore Wind from Brawl, Zelda would be better if her attacks had the same properties than in the previous game.

It would be like a test of some sort, we could see if she is 'viable' and try her for ourselves.

I really don't understand why her multi-hit smashes are so lame when Megaman's and Pikachu's are (almost?) inescapable. The first thing that Project M changed was this, so I don't understand how a professional team cannot do it. Zelda honestly feels like a slug, it shouldn't be allowed when in the same game you have characters like ZSS who jump everywhere and almost can't get punished.

 

[LRodC]

I wouldn't trade if it meant losing an entire move in Phantom and Farore's Wind becoming much worse. I also like her down throw and down tilt a lot more in this game. I never used Sheik so I prefer the standalone one.

I'm not sure why you guys always act like she's the worst character in the game. I do pretty well with her and win with her just as much as with any other character against good people. It's the skill, not necessarily just the character that wins matches. She definitely has some issues that should be patched but you guys need to stop over exaggerating them. Buff up smash. Some less landing lag on nair. Increased reliability on smashes. Fix any blind spots or make them more accurate looking. Boom, done with the things that should happen. Everything else is fairly unrealistic and most likely will not happen.

 

[Meru.]

Okay, this gorl knows some of exactly what I was thinking.

The Dtilt change could be achieved by moving the IASA a few frame earlier. This would also make the move just a little better in other situations, but I see this as completely fair, and I looked up some stats to prove it:

Diddy Kong's Dtilt is better in practically every way to Zelda's--faster to hit by 1 frame, 1.5% more damage, definitely longer ranged, and I highly doubt it doesn't have less endlag that Zelda's Dtilt. So for Zelda's to become just a little better is completely fair if there are moves functionally just like her Dtilt but all around better.

While this change is fair, I'm less optimistic we'll actually get to see it.

When you put it like this it makes so much sense, it almost hurts

Reduced Phantom Slash endlag was the only helpful thing I could see happening as well. Right now the release animation totals to roughly 50 FRAMES. That's longer than the average charge-type shot move, (Or even like, DK's punch.) If it were given IASA 10 frames earlier, (visually I think this is RIGHT when she starts lowering her hand.) it would have roughly the same endlag as Din's Fire, which, for Phantom slash is far more fair. I'm personally fine with Din's endlag, I'd consider it a lower priority, but nice if we could have it. [/quote]

50 frames srsly. I didn't know this, that's almost an entire second, and more than half of it is dedicated to start-up and ending lag. ._.

The change outcomes to Dthrow or Ftilt couldn't be accomplished simply enough in a balance patch imo, (Ftilt would have to have an endlag reduction as well to work.) or the changes would add some inadvertent silliness, which... I would mind Zelda having...

You would or you wouldn't...? Yeah the Ftilt buff sounds really weird now I think about it, although it would look cool. It's a shame Dthrow > Uair wouldn't work. Hoo-hah may be overpowered on Diddy but it wouldn't be on Zelda who really needs a strong killing game to compensate for her weaknesses. Oh well, I guess a strong Bthrow would suffice.

I wouldn't trade if it meant losing an entire move in Phantom and Farore's Wind becoming much worse. I also like her down throw and down tilt a lot more in this game. I never used Sheik so I prefer the standalone one.

I'm not sure why you guys always act like she's the worst character in the game. I do pretty well with her and win with her just as much as with any other character against good people. It's the skill, not necessarily just the character that wins matches. She definitely has some issues that should be patched but you guys need to stop over exaggerating them. Buff up smash. Some less landing lag on nair. Increased reliability on smashes. Fix any blind spots or make them more accurate looking. Boom, done with the things that should happen. Everything else is fairly unrealistic and most likely will not happen.

Posts like these are getting really really tiresome. They're always the same too.

"I do pretty well with her and win with her just as much as with any other character against good people."

I'm very happy you're doing well with her, keep it up. However, I don't know how good the people are you played. For all we know you might be playing your grandma and calling her a good player. You'll have to show me a video or tournament results of your performance in order for this point to have any validity.

Also, note that you sound very patronizing when you say this. The people here don't suck. We may get pretty decent results too and we may beat "good" players too (although what's one defines as good differs as person, hence the inverted commas). Some people may even be better than you are. In spite of that, our opinion of this character is just different from yours. Please respect that.

I like how you say "Its the skill, not necessarily just the character that wins matches" instead of a more blunt "it's the skill, not the character that wins matches", but by saying not necessarily it shows you do believe that picking a certain character could influence the outcome of a match, if only very very little. I'm glad we don't have to discuss about that. However, I would like to point out that you may not believe that it picking Zelda can heavily change the outcome of a match, but I and many others do.

Everything else is fairly unrealistic and most likely will not happen.

WE. KNOW. THIS. I have argued that even fixing her smashes isn't very realistic since they have broken for three games + two patches and there are a bunch of multi-hit that do connect properly (showing they can do it if they want to) while there also many that don't, usually on stronger moves (showing that they may be intended to whiff). However, nobody but the balancing team knows what changes they will implement, so there is no way of truly knowing what's realistic or not. Could you please let people speculate the way they want to? Thanks.

 

[Quillion]

I know!

How about throws with less base and more growth?

How about armored teleport?

Has a good approach this way as well as a good combo starter, while retaining good finishing.

 

[Suicidal_Donuts]

The only likely changes that I've seen here are:
Decrease Nair end lag

If we did have all that other stuff (like a better Uair, Bthrow, storable Phantom, fixed dead zones and Usmash/Fsmash, No free fall from Din's, etc) Zelda sure would be a threat, but I don't see any of that happening in this Smash.

 

[DNeon]

The only likely changes that I've seen here are:
Decrease Nair end lag

If we did have all that other stuff (like a better Uair, Bthrow, storable Phantom, fixed dead zones and Usmash/Fsmash, No free fall from Din's, etc) Zelda sure would be a threat, but I don't see any of that happening in this Smash.

I agree with all of this, although I think a compensation buff to the smashes isn't too outrageous to expect, I agree that fixing the deadzones is probably unlikely.

 

[Alphatron]

@ LRodC LightningRodc? The same Lrodc on gamefaqs? Bruh, play me right now. I always see you in topics ruining my Zelda bashing and calling Din's Fire a good move. How about we have some matches?

 

[Peeta]

I like Brawl Zelda with SSB4 physics. I do enjoy the elevator in SSB4, but I think I'd trade that for her power in Brawl.

Of course, I think Sakurai's got bigger fish to fry than Zelda... I wouldn't expect much of a change to her. I don't hate her SSB4 gameplay (hence she's still my main...)

 

[Duzzzyy]

i just want brawl Uair tbh

i just want melee downB tbh

Seriously tho there's not much more to add at this point that hasn't been said, and my expectations are low for what Sakurai will decide. At most I hope for a small buff to her ftilt, that's all I dare.

 

[Macchiato]

i just want melee downB tbh

Really stop. That joke can go die in hell. It's so old and I'm like done with it.

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

i just want melee downB tbh

 

[Duzzzyy]

Really stop. That joke can go die in hell. It's so old and I'm like done with it.

Yeah, sorry. Realized a while after I posted that it wasn't anywhere near as clever or funny as sleepy me thought. My b

 

[BJN39]

To be fair, there is a difference between bringing up "the down B joke" and just saying you miss being able to transform. (Which I sometimes miss it from Brawl. Mostly because I loved switching over everyone wifi.) I assumed you meant the latter tbh Duzzzyy, so I wasn't bothered.

 

[FullMoon]

Somebody should place Villager's head on that woman for when you get angry at him and his trees =V

 

[Potpourri]

This is gonna be all over the place and unorganized (Just like Zelda's moveset ) but whatever lol

• For starters, the fact that nAir has so much landing lag is ridiculous. It's already a shaky approach tool as it is, and then the fact that it has a lot landing lag piled on top of it is saddening. Just reduce the move's landing lag and I'll be fine. Also, 7%? No thanks. At least 10 would be nice.
• Lightning Kicks are't even "lightning" anymore, because there's nothing fast about them. Why can I only use 1 per jump due to the midair endlag? Why is her current fAir slower than Brawl's fAir? Why does Zelda have to fall flat on her face for two seconds after each one? Why do both stale faster than milk? The fact that her Lightning Kicks got nerfed so hard in the first place is confusing (the supposed SH AC in the MewTwo trailer looks promising though).
• Her uAir is a mixed bag imo. Its still stronger than most uAirs so it can get the job done, but it's still such a situational move that middleweights should not be surviving the move at 100%. While it would be nice, I'm not asking for Brawl uAir knockback, but the move needs to launch further. Also, someone said it should AC if Zelda lands before the explosion appears, which would be nice.
• bThrow could kill a tad bit earlier.
• dThrow needs to be more reliable. dThrow to nAir should be a guarantee, not a gamble.
• uTilt is probably Zelda's most useless tilt, unless I'm using it wrong or something. It's supposed to be a combo move, but it doesn't properly lead into anything. Just bring back Brawl uTilt please.
• I originally hated her dTilt and just wanted her Brawl dTilt to come back, but I'm starting to warm up to her current one. If anything, make it a tiny bit faster and make it launch opponents a little bit less. I miss being able to spam dTilt so much.
• Elevator should NOT be DIable. It's already risky as it is.....
• FW Reappearance on the ground needs less lag. It should be safer.
• Dins is a complete mess, but I know we're not getting Brawl Dins, and I'm okay with that. The kill sweetspot is greatly appreciated. The only "realistic" changes I see the move getting is the explosion appearing faster and the sweetspot being a bit bigger. My unrealistic expectations are for the sourspot to have the same KB as Brawl Dins and for the move to not put Zelda into freefall. Do you know how many matches I've lost because of that design flaw?
• Phantom, Phantom, Phantom.....There's so many issues with this move and it's driving me nuts. For starters, there's a humongous blindspot. Just have the Phantom push the opponent instead of it flying past! Second off, the first hit needs less knockback. It reminds me of Link's fSmash. The first hit has too much knockback, which causes the second hit to not connect. This means the second hit whiffs a lot more than it should.Also, please tell me how a giant knight can be reflected?? Why does it have projectile properties???? Because of this, Villager can pocket it, which is ridiculous. It would be nice if it was storeable on top of these changes, but I doubt that will ever happen.
• dSmash needs its range back, uSmash needs to be stronger and faster (or just give me Brawl uSmash). Her uSmash and fSmash should not have opponents falling out of it either. It's 2015, people!

I probably missed out on a couple things but this post became much more of a wall of text than I thought. TLDR zeldasux, the end

 

[frest123]

This is gonna be all over the place and unorganized (Just like Zelda's moveset ) but whatever lol

• (the supposed SH AC in the MewTwo trailer looks promising though).

WHAT. AC?!! REALLY?!! DON'T PLAY WITH MY EMOTIONS MAN.

Either way, I agree with most of what you had to say.

 

[FullMoon]

WHAT. AC?!! REALLY?!! DON'T PLAY WITH MY EMOTIONS MAN.

Either way, I agree with most of what you had to say.

I just looked at the Mewtwo trailer and it does look that indeed Zelda can auto cancel her lightning kicks. Or at least it has the same landing lag as Palutena's F-Air (dunno if that one auto-cancels or not) since they're both used at the same time in the trailer. That's... Interesting.

 

[Zylach]

This response actually made me break into uncontrollable laughter. Thank you so much.

 

[Meru.]

Omg I didnt even notice that

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvbwZYV7W0Q&t=0m24s

No doubt qbout it, she definitely landed. Yay buffs! @berserker.

 

[Zylach]

It's really difficult to tell because she gets hit immediately after landing but she does land and it looks like she lands standing up instead of on her ass like she should have. If they did this for her other aerials, I'd say that's a very significant buff.

 

[Rickster]

I'm just hoping they don't throw in some BS nerf like slower startup/smaller sweetspot to "balance" it...

Must...remain..optimistic..

 

[S.F.L.R_9]

THE HYPE IS SO REAL RN
Just 5 more days until we know our Princess' fate! If fair really does autocancel I'd be so excited that I'd lose it tbh. Maybe it'd become more useful for breaking shields? Two fairs/bairs already break a shield and being able to land them on a shield in quick succession would be very useful

 

[BJN39]

If someone wants to slow it down or split the clip up and show me the frame where she IS one the ground NOT in landing lag then I'll believe.

But more than once I've replayed the clip like a hundred times and I could only conclude that Zelda was hit just frames before touching the ground. I don't see it if it really is there.

 

[Tino]

Really, I would like they would buff Zelda back the way she was in Brawl. That's pretty much it.

 

[Lil Puddin]

Zelda needs some sort of speed buff movement speed and/or aerial speed and she would finally be able to use all her tools. Let's face it, she has a lot of tools but they're all mediocre thanks to their end lag and/or her overall speed. It should be fairly obvious from watching her fight that she is far from the best.

I would personally like a lightning stomp similar to Project M's stomp. Being able to kill someone with Dair should be a possibility. Not early, but above 100% at least. At the moment it works as a decent combo starter, but the other person can almost always just tech or aerial dodge soon after. So a reward for the risk just doesn't exist unless you're facing terrible players.

 

[frest123]

Idk, looks like Mewtwo's the one that lands. Zelda doesn't seem to get the chance to land.....

EDIT:

I was thinking about the possibility of it being able to link two to break shields as well.... Oh dear lord I'm about to cry..... PLEASE MAKE IT HAPPEN.