What makes a move "safe"--a common sense guide plus

[Blad01]

So... It's hard for me to understand (mostly because i'm french, not because i don't like maths ).

But with this formula, can we determine how far a sheilding opponent will be pushed, with a certain attack ?

 

[Gamer212]

Mind=Blown.


No really, my brain hurts. That makes this a good topic. I would post that picture, but it was already posted...

 

[rinoH]

good thread yet very confusing

 

[St. Viers]

Mwahaha...people are confused...

no, it doesn't say how far they are pushed, but it says whether you can attack someone's shield and remain unpunished...

Okay, so over the summer, (I'm going to be un-interneted for awhile--hopefully pplz will have brawl though), I'll write out more of these, and make them sensible

 

[Magus420]

For anyone interested to see just how little shieldstun there is in Brawl, I measured shieldstun for just about all of Luigi's attacks:

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175652


Some comparisons:

D-Air (Brawl)
Hitlag: 9
Shield Stun: 3
Landlag IASA: 13
Advantage: -9
D-Air (Melee)
Hitlag: 7
Shield Stun: 9
Lcanceled: 9
Advantage: 0

N-Air (Brawl)
Hitlag: 10
Shield Stun: 4
Landlag IASA: 11
Advantage: -6
N-Air (Melee)
Hitlag: 7
Shield Stun: 8
Lcanceled: 7
Advantage: +1


Probably should have just used "Disadvantage: _" for Brawl instead since that's all there is really, lol.

 

[St. Viers]

heh, thanks for noticing my thread...mind if I link to your data list for weeg?

 

[Magus420]

Sure, go for it.

 

[Flamingo777]

I wanna know how to play safer, hopefully this thread will help

 

[Flamingo777]

Wait.. You didnt even have brawl, yet you wrote that.. hmmm i like the dedication hahah. thanks!

 

[Delvro]

It may be helpful for people that decide to work on this project (which I would love to see get off the ground) is that the variable in the equation is time, in frames, for the opponent to counter-attack. Everything else is a constant that is determined by the characters fighting (both the attack being tested for and the character being tested against).

A major problem i see is that it is not only important to measure the distance that the opponent is sent away from an attack (from a successful hit or even a non-powershield), but also the ANGLE from which they are sent. Thus, an opponent's DI also affects how quickly they can counter-attack. Also, that means that you are going to have to deal with vectors, and that makes your equation more complex than it already is.

For example, let's say G+W turtles (Bair) a med-to-high-% Fox. No DI sends them diagonally, I think. So the most efficient thing to do time wise would be to spend t1 frames fast-falling and then t2 frames using his B move, or perhaps his side B

However, if Fox DIs down-left, the time t1 is reduced (because Fox can reach the ground, where his opponent is in range of the B and side B), even though the TOTAL DISTANCE that Fox is flung is the same. To find the exact amount would require a study of the maximum angle of change that DI can achieve as well as some trigonometry (since we would have to find the angle of DI that minimizes the distance/velocity for the opponent character to be in range of his most efficient counter-attack from the position he was sent)

 

[Slush]

Wow, thats awesome, once we get the data for frame rate this is gonna own!

 

[brinboy789]

too...much...math...>_>

great guide tho

 

[M15t3R E]

Good read.
Imo, the biggest factor in deciding whether or not a move is safe is how punishable the move is.
Spacing is so important because with proper spacing, you can make moves that aren't always safe, safe.

 

[M15t3R E]

Double post... ignore this...

 

[smaci92]

thanks for this thread St. Viers. I have all the equipment to figure out the numbers for the variables in your formulas (frame data software, video recording devices, a wii lol, and frame snapshot software, and photoshop). Sadly, math is not my area of expertise though lol but nevertheless, I'll definitely give it a try thanks again man...good job

 

[crescentia]

General complaint - If this is to be a math text, please for god's sake number your equations and explain exactly what you're doing in between them. Not that it's absolutely necessary, but it makes things much easier to follow. Furthermore, it's also confusing when you use the variable v for more than one form of movement; although this is justified it's rather confusing without an example.

Specific problems:

In this critique I'll be numbering your equations according to the order in which they appear in red.

Equation 3 seems to be wrong. The dimensions of v/d are in 1/frame - I think you want d/v here since your equation is for response time. Also, I am unclear exactly about the meaning of v here - as you neglect to explicitly state which character although by the definition of tR it seems it should be for the defending character. This error actually propagates throughout your entire analysis, which is rather problematic.

Equations 6 and 7: this is a very confusing approach to determine how the counterattack will approach things. For one thing, a counterattack will travel at its own speed on the ground, so the time for the attack to reach its extended range should Tca, which we'll have to measure experimentally. Although I understand why you could group it together (say, for an aerial counterattack), Rca shouldn't be included in with the v terms because in many instances its speed is unique.

All in all a good analysis; your presentation was just a bit confusing at times.