what is cheapness

[Agent CC]

Have you ever been in situation were you have been spawned and have perfect health, then your bud runs over and grabs you, throws you off the ledge, and then spikes, kicks, or pounds your face in. you quickly plummet to the bottom of the stage and are probably tossing your controller around afterword. After this and the inevidable cursing that will be done is done, do you see the look of success on the persons face or the look of I don't care?

Please share similar stories with this thread and make them epic for the hell of it.

Also on a lighter note, is it cheapness that just killed you, or skill that just did that? Ask yourself that while your at it.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Great bay is cheap.

Dr. Mario's upB under the platform is an instant kill.

Big blue is cheap.

Ever been stuck with Bowser on the final round of a (not pro) tourney on this stage? I have.
DON'T be in midair when the cars go over the ramp. The whole stage goes up except for you, who's screwed.

This is not skill, it's ghey.

 

[Mic_128]

Have you ever been in situation were you have been spawned and have perfect health, then your bud runs over and grabs you, throws you off the ledge, and then spikes, kicks, or pounds your face in. you quickly plummet to the bottom of the stage and are probably tossing your controller around afterword.

No, that's you letting yourself get grabbed, not breaking out of the grab, and not DI-ing correctly (and posibly not teching on the wall dependin on the spike/meteyor recovering)

The only things that are really "cheap" are the things that there is no way of getting out of/stopping. Fox running away on Hyrule Temple for example.

 

[Agent CC]

It's ghey when they don't normally use that character and go out of their way to do the move.

It's skill when that is there character and they know when to do things.

that's my outlook on things.

 

[M3D]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

 

[blooagga]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

WOW that was beautiful, I could show that post to a lot of people.

 

[Jazriel]

Cheap is an interesting subject. Many people use it incorrectly. Usually people call it cheap when they did something stupid and got punished for it or when they're being outskilled.

The real definition of cheap is a broken game mechanic. For example, some people might say Fox's shine is cheap, but it really isn't. What may be cheap is f throw to off-stage shine leading in a 0% kill. That's cheap.

Disclaimer: I was at a professional level in Halo: CE. I know what I'm talking about.

A good example is also in Halo: CE. The ghost, was cheap. It was completely broken in a few situations. Mainly when you're on foot or in a vehicle. Which is pretty much 9/10's of the game. A skilled ghost pilot in a small game couldn't really die. A skilled ghost pilot will 100% kill you in a tank. A skilled ghost pilot will 100% kill you if you're on foot and can't find cover immediately.

As I said, "cheap" is an aspect of the game itself. If the game has flaws that allow something to be exploited that removes skill from the equation, it's "cheap". A very obvious example would be if Melee had a "secret button combo" where you won automatically. That would be hella cheap.


As Mic_128 said, being thrown after you've just spawned to an edge-gaurd spike/meteor isn't cheap, it's your fault. You can wiggle out of grabs almost immediatly at 0% or if they grab, attack, and then try to throw you can get out of it before they throw 100% of the time. It's also your fault for DI'ing incorrectly, and if they meteor'd you, it's your fault for not meteor cancelling at the right time.


There are a lot of games with certain broken game mechanics. I just wanted to throw this clarification out there.

And M3D got it perfect. Cheap doesn't exist. Broken game mechanics that make the game unplayable/not worthy to be played are what exist. On a side note, this is why games that can be played competitively are so beautiful. They are so well made, so precise, that it is a work of art. Not to mention that games that are "deep" can be played with such creativity and originality that the players themselves are practically painters.

 

[Gilgamesh]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

But then, some items and stages (that got banned) were cheap, unfair, or what? Because i was under the impression that their banning was due to them giving some characters an unfair, or cheap (but not unavoidable, or 100% unbeatable) advantage.

I actually know and understand why these are banned, its just that arguments like this tend to confuse me on the subject.

However: i don't play by tournament rules myself, so this question is only out of genuine curiosity

 

[Tobi-]

If cheapness didn't really exist I wonder why items, stages were banned at professional tournies.

"Oh, it's your fault you didn't dodge the items and it's your fault you let me heal 100%".

Using that logic, nothing is cheap.

 

[Drik Khaail]

healing items are different story. however, most items are there to give both fighters a hand, some more than others. I thought the reason that all items are banned is because you can't turn off capsules though.

 

[Tobi-]

Healing items aren't a different story.

Items are items.

And according to people who say cheapness doesn't exist, it's your fault you let them grab the item and replenish their health, regardless if it spawned right on them.

It is also your fault you couldn't catch fox running around hyrule temple with playing as bowser while fox spammed lasers. You are "inferiorly skilled".

 

[Lightning Ice]

Items are cheap because they are random and luck based. There's nothing you can do if a hammer, star or heart drops by next to your opponent when you are on the other side of the map and it can really suck to lose money in a tournament if that happens. Although because those broken items can be turned off it is mainly the exploding barrels that caused Items to be banned because they love to spawn right next to you when you got o do an attack. I know, I've had it happen 3 times in a four stock match. I then proceeded to turning off items and I've never turned them on willingly because I hate them and they apparently hate me too. );

 

[Anth0ny]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

This. I am going to read this to my friends.

The only things that are really "cheap" are the things that there is no way of getting out of/stopping. Fox running away on Hyrule Temple for example.

Very true. I've never done it, but I easily could

 

[evilflame101]

Great bay is cheap.

Dr. Mario's upB under the platform is an instant kill.

Big blue is cheap.

Ever been stuck with Bowser on the final round of a (not pro) tourney on this stage? I have.
DON'T be in midair when the cars go over the ramp. The whole stage goes up except for you, who's screwed.

This is not skill, it's ghey.

yes but the skill to get a spike kill at low %, thats just plaining skill!

 

[shipoffools]

what about this has to do with brawl? seems like it should belong in the melee forum...

 

[Sadnap]

I'm sure this article has been linked thousands of times already, but it really is a necessary read for the ever debatable cheap/fairness issue at hand. http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

 

[Psydon]

"Cheap" is just a word for something one finds absurd in a game's gameplay. For example, a Marth using a flawless fair combo-to-Ken combo; the opposing player might say: "That's cheap!" because of how difficult it can be to escape Marth's fair combos, assuming the Marth player does them correctly.

Personally, I just say the word and let the complaint rest at that (I don't insult my opponents if they're pwning me; actually, I compliment them). I consider things that just don't make sense cheap. For example:

-Jigglypuff can over-prioritize attacks that outreach her
-Marth can grab beyond the reach of his arms, and his sword has a strange stunning effect with his airs
-Falco's truly absurd d-tilt
-The Shine

The problem with the word is the fact that noobs will call just about any means by which they get pwned "cheap", resulting in the word being considered just noob babblings and something to be ignored, when it's really just a silly term.

For example:

*Player 1 gets completely destroyed by a Mario juggling combo*

P1: That's cheap!
P2: No it's not.
P1: Yes it is! I couldn't do anything!
P2: Mario's attacks are weak and short-range, and they're not blazingly fast like some other characters. There's nothing cheap about what I did.
P1: ...

Nobody with a sensible outlook on Smash would call Mario's combos cheap.

Edit: Another example:

Player 1 gets u-smashed by Pikachu and then KOed by Thunder, and calls it cheap. Given Pikachu's short range and the limited range of Thunder, such a scenario is easy to avoid and is in no way cheap.

 

[Takeshi245]

I'm sure this article has been linked thousands of times already, but it really is a necessary read for the ever debatable cheap/fairness issue at hand. http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

People should seriously take that to heart so they can be enlightened about the competitive community. I know for sure it helped me get into it.

 

[WarioII]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

yes aint that the truth i like the way you think man

 

[SacredX]

Since this whole "cheap gaming" thing seems to have surfaced, I'll just state this:

Nintendo is not at all trying to impress the "tourney players", but moreso the casual players. This is why there are extremely few, if any, completely flat stages with no side-effects. Also items such as Assistant Trophy's are most likely desireable to many since they contain characters many people like and/or wish were actual characters. That pretty much counters those "no item" matches.

As for actual players being "cheap", there is one person I know at my College that, in 4 person matches, just stays at the edge, waiting to grab/knock them, toss them off, and spike them. In a rare case he will job in just to knock someone over to the edge, but all in all, he's an edge hog that relies on spiking people. There are ways to avoid it, but none of them are 100% and he's still using cheap tactics. He's often Falco in SSBM and Ness in SSB. He usually annoys me, so whenever he's playing in a 4-person match, I go straight for him and try to assure myself he's the first one out so he'll have to give up his controller. Of course, because of this I end up losing half of my lives or more.

 

[EazyP]

Being f-thrown to spike isn't cheap, it's avoidable and you could of recovered from it should be the main interest right now

Being "cheap" does exist though, and this is where bans come in, like in King of Fighters XI, there's a character who has an unblockable attack that leads to a huge life losing combo. Now if you're stuck in this situation in the middle of the match, it's allowed since you didn't roll/recover/whatever to get there. But if you're in a situation where your next character is just entering the playing field, it's just criminal to hit someone with the unblockable, because they can do nothing leading up to the situation to not get into the unblockable attack, so it is banned

Another notion of being cheap would be a move that only a few people could do, that would win them tournaments in Smash, just because only they can do it and it's so good. Now there are two ways this can go...

1. Other people learn it, it becomes a technique that many many people can do, it's not banned

2. Only that select small handful of people can do it, it is banned

Sirlin is a good man, look up his talks on competitive gaming

 

[Requiem]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

Sirlin ftw, to all the kiddy's thinking the same as the creator of this topic...

Before playing this game, even more important, before posting things like this and making yourself look like a kiddy, read this TOTALLY, every **** page, page one starts here: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/prologue/

THEN you will be ready to play without being a frikking scrub.

 

[Nicktendo]

peachs dsmash doing 60-80% in one move in melee

marth, lol

 

[Requiem]

peachs dsmash doing 60-80% in one move in melee

marth, lol

Dont CC when being near a peach, its oh so simple... <_____<;

 

[Saor Gael]

That's because you don't understand competitive gaming yet.

"Cheap" doesn't REALLY exist. You just make it up to make yourself feel better cause you're not very good at the game. It makes you feel morally superior, even though you are intellectually and technically inferior.

We had to deal with all of this on Melee, but now that there's a whole new crop of kids coming to play Brawl, I'm sure we'll have another round of kids that don't understand the competitive game. Playing to win isn't cheap. Unless a strategy is 100% unbeatable AND unavoidable its fair to use.

Actually, "cheapness" does exist. In scientific studies it's shown that humans have an innate aversion to things they consider "unfair". The only people who construct a delicate set of lies to justify their actions are those who use the easiest way possible to win, and then believe they are intellectually superior.

If someone is good enough to do all that (jump off the stage, spike the enemy, and recover) then they'd be good enough to win using more conventional methods against an opponent who isn't fantastically skilled.

Do you know why they should consider it? Because if you utterly, completely pwn people using the cheapest tactics at your disposal every time, they won't want to play with you anymore. XD

 

[JPOBS]

Being f-thrown to spike isn't cheap, it's avoidable and you could of recovered from it should be the main interest right now

Being "cheap" does exist though, and this is where bans come in, like in King of Fighters XI, there's a character who has an unblockable attack that leads to a huge life losing combo. Now if you're stuck in this situation in the middle of the match, it's allowed since you didn't roll/recover/whatever to get there. But if you're in a situation where your next character is just entering the playing field, it's just criminal to hit someone with the unblockable, because they can do nothing leading up to the situation to not get into the unblockable attack, so it is banned

Another notion of being cheap would be a move that only a few people could do, that would win them tournaments in Smash, just because only they can do it and it's so good. Now there are two ways this can go...

1. Other people learn it, it becomes a technique that many many people can do, it's not banned

2. Only that select small handful of people can do it, it is banned

Sirlin is a good man, look up his talks on competitive gaming

I dont agree with this.

The only "cheap" tactic is a tactic which is employed by some players at the ignorance of others (i.e literal cheating). Who's fault is it that other people dont perfomr the technique? If one person can learn it, anyone can learn it.
Therefore, if a few people can do it, its obviously possible, and if it helps me win, why should it be banned?

 

[FireWater]

Have you ever been in situation were you have been spawned and have perfect health, then your bud runs over and grabs you, throws you off the ledge, and then spikes, kicks, or pounds your face in. you quickly plummet to the bottom of the stage and are probably tossing your controller around afterword. After this and the inevidable cursing that will be done is done, do you see the look of success on the persons face or the look of I don't care?

Please share similar stories with this thread and make them epic for the hell of it.

Also on a lighter note, is it cheapness that just killed you, or skill that just did that? Ask yourself that while your at it.

The definition of cheap comes about from a player that has a sense of "honor" when playing games. If a tactic is deemed unfair by this individual it will hence be known as "Cheap". Cheap simply means that the tactic violates the honor person's present mindset of what constitutes legal or illegal in play without corresponding with the game's reality. Most of the time cheap comes from the inexperienced player's lack of options or being outskilled. "You may have beat me in the game but you used cheap tactics, therefore I am still better" basically sums up mindset of the person who cries cheap.

Cheap is a self restriction that does not generalize to the game. In reality, the only moves that aren't allowed are the ones that the game physically forbids. This list is ALWAYS greater for the person that cries cheap or the scrub. The only difference is that the scrub can impose his ruleset on his or herself, while expecting others to agree with their ruleset and most times to be disappointed when it is not followed. Their ruleset becomes an Ego defense mechanism by not correctly recognizing the victory of his or her opponent, because of a violation of subjective rules that do not correspond with the game's reality. "Cheap" is simply denial with a hint of delusion.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

"Cheap" is a scrub's word for efficiency.

-King

 

[Geist]

Do you know why they should consider it? Because if you utterly, completely pwn people using the cheapest tactics at your disposal every time, they won't want to play with you anymore. XD

ah, but if they repeatedly use that tactic after a while, would an intelligent person not find a way to counter it?
By discovering ways to counter superior techniques creates improvement in players and adds more strategical depth in the game. I think that was mentioned in the sirlin link above.

 

[JPOBS]

to me, there is no such thing as cheapness, only efficiency.

I have a friend who i play smash with. He's good, not amazing, but good, he can take 2 of 4 stocks from me. The first time i used a edgehog on him to take a easy stock, he called it unfair. Then he realized that he could do it too. After that, it was fair game, if we both could employ the technique, it then became a matter of finding ways to avoid it. The move itself might by "cheap" solely based on the fact that it is easy and efficient. But its implementation is no longer cheap, it is now "useful".

thats the way it works.

 

[Ojanya]

There is no such thing as cheapness. It's your excuse when you lose.

 

[Tobi-]

There is no such thing as cheapness. It's your excuse when you lose.

did you even read any of the posts in the thread..?

 

[Ojanya]

Healing items aren't a different story.

Items are items.

And according to people who say cheapness doesn't exist, it's your fault you let them grab the item and replenish their health, regardless if it spawned right on them.

It is also your fault you couldn't catch fox running around hyrule temple with playing as bowser while fox spammed lasers. You are "inferiorly skilled".

It's not your fault if an exploding capsule appears JUST as you smash.

It's not your fault if a heart appears right next to your opponet instead of you.

Luck. Unlike the grab/spike, which is pure skill.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Cheapness is anything that gives you an advantage over me.

 

[Saor Gael]

I dont agree with this.

The only "cheap" tactic is a tactic which is employed by some players at the ignorance of others (i.e literal cheating). Who's fault is it that other people dont perfomr the technique? If one person can learn it, anyone can learn it.
Therefore, if a few people can do it, its obviously possible, and if it helps me win, why should it be banned?

"Cheap" and "cheating" are different things. Something that is cheap is something that is extremely devastating and powerful that can be done easily or at nearly any time and can't be easily defended against.

If someone is not skilled enough to counter that, isn't it, therefore, cheap? Sure, you could then just pwn them, but were is the fun or challenge? If you fight more conventionally, then they may get more into it and get better until you can fight on the same level.

Unless you're afraid of that.

 

[Tobi-]

It's not your fault if an exploding capsule appears JUST as you smash.

It's not your fault if a heart appears right next to your opponet instead of you.

Luck. Unlike the grab/spike, which is pure skill.

so what do you say to stages being banned from tournaments? luck?

i dont think so.

 

[Ojanya]

so what do you say to stages being banned from tournaments? luck?

i dont think so.

Bugs.

Things like infinites.

 

[Tobi-]

Yea and that would be considered cheap, which means some player has an advantage over others.

Example. Fox Vs bowser at hyrule temple. All fox has to do is run and spam lasers at bowser until he's at 100% then f/u/smash him. Bowser could never catch fox in that stage because it's so long. Nearly anyone would stop playing them, because it's unfair/cheap.

Of course you could always tell them to just dodge the lasers. But who feels like being defensive 100% of the match?

 

[Ojanya]

Yea and that would be considered cheap, which means some player has an advantage over others.

Example. Fox Vs bowser at hyrule temple. All fox has to do is run and spam lasers at bowser until he's at 100% then f/u/smash him. Bowser could never catch fox in that stage because it's so long. Nearly anyone would stop playing them, because it's unfair/cheap.

Of course you could always tell them to just dodge the lasers. But who feels like being defensive 100% of the match?

So now you're AGREEING with me?

The point is, this stuff has all been thought of. Everything you've said. VERY intellegent people made these rules. They're very well thought out.

 

[Tobi-]

I don't know where you got bugs from out of Fox Vs bowser at Hyrule Temple.

I was stating what was cheap about the stage, not if it was bugged.