*Sigh*
About 99% of bugs ARE CHEAP. They give an UNFAIR advantage.
You keep changing your argument. I don't understand what you're trying to prove here.
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what is cheapness
- Thread starter Agent CC
- Start date
About 99% of bugs ARE CHEAP. They give an UNFAIR advantage.
You keep changing your argument. I don't understand what you're trying to prove here.
"Fighting more coneventionally" depends on what you define as convention."Cheap" and "cheating" are different things. Something that is cheap is something that is extremely devastating and powerful that can be done easily or at nearly any time and can't be easily defended against.
If someone is not skilled enough to counter that, isn't it, therefore, cheap? Sure, you could then just pwn them, but were is the fun or challenge? If you fight more conventionally, then they may get more into it and get better until you can fight on the same level.
Unless you're afraid of that.
I don't see why convention always mean cater to the person who has the least amount of skill.
The only convention I see is what the game physically allows vs. what it does not allow.
As a player beginning competitive play, I do not want people to hold back, its a lose lose situation.
1)Player holds back and I still lose. Wow I must really suck then.
2)Player holds back and I win. Yay I get to feel like the mainstream kid who wins at the special olympics.
Any player that needs self efficacy by playing with restrictions needs to stop lying to themselves, OR surrond themselves with ONLY players that feel the same way they do. Any other situation with result in ego defense mechanism using and delusional behavior.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
How is a move cheap because my opponent does not utilize it?"Cheap" and "cheating" are different things. Something that is cheap is something that is extremely devastating and powerful that can be done easily or at nearly any time and can't be easily defended against.
If someone is not skilled enough to counter that, isn't it, therefore, cheap? Sure, you could then just pwn them, but were is the fun or challenge? If you fight more conventionally, then they may get more into it and get better until you can fight on the same level.
Unless you're afraid of that.
For that matter, if it is quick and easy to perform, but not easily countered, why does my opponent neglect to use it on me? If a move allows for a better chance of winning, why refrain from using the technique?
What is "conventional" fighting? How do you define a conventional fighting style? Why not chain throw your opponenet 50 times instead of once? for that matter, why is it the loser who determines what is considered "conventional" ?
Unless i opponenet simply is unable to do the techinque (his controller is broken, i knock him unconscious, he is blind and ********) then its fair game.
Tobi-
Smash Ace
I'm proving that cheapness exists. You kept mentioning bugs as if I said anything about that in my example. I'm honestly confused on what you're trying to say.
Lemme rephrase my example - The Fox Vs Bowser example IS NOT bugged. Fox outrunning bowser IS NOT a bug. Fox spamming lasers while bowser is utterly useless IS NOT A bug. It's called CHEAP=Unfair Advantage. I said NOTHING about agreeing with you on stages being bugged.
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In my experience, "cheap" generally refers to "anything a player does not understand yet is defeated by". I still call things cheap quite often, but I mean it in a very different context than others. When I call something cheap, it just means I have witnessed an amazing tactic that destroyed me. Other people tend to imply that said tactic should also be banned. >_>
Honestly, if the bowser player is good enough, they'lll wait away. That is a bad example.
Tobi-
Smash Ace
So, basically Bowser either stays on defensive forever, or presume getting hit until he's at 100%+, just to be f/u/smashed.
Nobody wants to play the waiting game. It's cheap gameplay. simple as that. Of course, Bowser could always just power shield and try to deflect every shot, but that would require some good timing, which fox could just dodge and continue until one lands.
Nobody wants to play the waiting game. It's cheap gameplay. simple as that. Of course, Bowser could always just power shield and try to deflect every shot, but that would require some good timing, which fox could just dodge and continue until one lands.
Now you're simply complaining about match ups. Sometimes you HAVE to play defensively. It's just what works.
An unfair advantage that is selectively imposed correct?
I mean anyone who is playing by now should have a decent idea of what the other characters abilities are.
I don't see that as cheap, I see it as smart.
Exactly. I rest my case.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i dont even see things as cheap anymore. i see everything as "gay"
sure, its hard to avoid, its easy to pull off, and you'd probably get owned. But, you can do it too, and a good player will get around it. So, its not cheap, its just gay. ^__^
sure, its hard to avoid, its easy to pull off, and you'd probably get owned. But, you can do it too, and a good player will get around it. So, its not cheap, its just gay. ^__^
Tobi-
Smash Ace
I'm not complaining about match-ups. I'm defining what's Cheap, since afterall, you said Cheap doesn't exist, period.
and suppose this were the case in brawl anonymous wi-fi. You choose Bowser, and as soon as the matches starts you see it's fox at Hyrule Temple. Hmm, guess you just have to wait until you're dead or just run around chasing like a lunatic.
I believe it's up to the player to decide what's cheap and the line between using "strategy".
In that case, playing cheap is considered a strategy.
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Why do wi-fi matches even matter? They aren't tournament matches, so they are just there to practice. If opponents want to be jerks about it and run away, oh well.
Tobi-
Smash Ace
And them being jerks and running away like lunatics is completely fair game, right?
I mean, it's their strategy.
Yet you've given no reason for WHY or HOW it's "Cheap"
Basically you've said: "That's cheap because I don't want to have to play smart, I want to play the game MY way."
Tobi-
Smash Ace
Er. I believe I stated the Fox vs Bowser example many times. I told you How it was cheap, and Why is what cheap.
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cheap = effective
There is no less honor in playing cheap than in playing "fair".
There is no less honor in playing cheap than in playing "fair".
Tobi-
Smash Ace
This entire thread is full of opinions.
You can't state anything as fact here when it comes to that discussion.
I think Zeldas downsmash is cheap cause it comes out in 7 frames.
Oh, but can't I?
Running back and lasering isn't illegal, is it? Well, then how on earth is it "cheap", wouldn't the smash community ban it? They haven't. Doesn't that prove enough that something such as that is simply a strategy? There's ways around it. It's not even that GOOD of a strategy.
If that's not enough, there's always bugs.
Bug - a defect or imperfection, as in a mechanical device, computer program, or plan; glitch: The test flight discovered the bugs in the new plane.
If it's not something that can be gotten around, gives you a 100% chance win, that would be considered CHEATING.
Cheating - To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
FRAUD. That puts it in perfect context.
TheMagicalKuja
Smash Champion
I remember when I fought someone with a mean Captain Falcon. He had far greater technical skill than I, but yet as Samus, when I missile/charge shot spammed, he whined like a *****.
I'm aware of tactics. My definition of a true cheap tactic is a tactic with NO COUNTER for A MAJORITY OF CHARACTERS. I know better Falcons can deal with Samus projectile spam, and a lot of characters can reflect/negate projectiles, so that tactic is not cheap.
I'm aware of tactics. My definition of a true cheap tactic is a tactic with NO COUNTER for A MAJORITY OF CHARACTERS. I know better Falcons can deal with Samus projectile spam, and a lot of characters can reflect/negate projectiles, so that tactic is not cheap.
Another excellent point. If it gets the job done, it's good. Play to win.
Tobi-
Smash Ace
Actually, Hyrule Temple is banned.
http://www.smashwiki.com/wiki/Banned_stages
I never said it was a good strategy. Yea, and I guess the smash community didn't take the whole "play to win" quote to well. If it was, then I'm sure there'd be much more available stages.
-_- I know hyrule is banned. I said LASERING isn't. Do you see people whining about SHLs or other projectiles being so "cheap" that it just takes away? No. You know why? Because it's SKILL. And that's what it all comes down to. There is no "cheapness." There is luck, and there is skill.
They took those stages out for luck. And that's what I've been telling you the whole time. I have things to do on a Friday evening, I've had fun arguing here, but I'm afraid I must leave.
Tobi-
Smash Ace
Actually, There were and they did. But since Hyrule temple is banned, LASERING can't be used as effectively in any other stage.
Hmm. Why do you think we have nerfs? I wonder. It certainly isn't because they were broken. Actually, according to your theory, no character is broken. So, why was kirby from SSB nerfed to death in melee? Hmmm..Why was fox nerfed in Brawl..Hmm..?
Quotes from smash wiki-
"Unlike Captain Falcon, who also made the transition from unlockable to default without being affected much, Ness appears to have been "nerfed"; that is, his fighting ability has been decreased, making him a much lower-quality character, much to the dismay of Ness fans, most noticeably his dair."
"Kirby (カービィ, Kābii) is a character in all three games of the Super Smash Bros. series. Although tier-wise he was one of the best characters in the original Super Smash Bros., in Super Smash Bros. Melee, he became one of the worst."
Hmm. Why do you think we have nerfs? I wonder. It certainly isn't because they were broken. Actually, according to your theory, no character is broken. So, why was kirby from SSB nerfed to death in melee? Hmmm..Why was fox nerfed in Brawl..Hmm..?
Quotes from smash wiki-
"Unlike Captain Falcon, who also made the transition from unlockable to default without being affected much, Ness appears to have been "nerfed"; that is, his fighting ability has been decreased, making him a much lower-quality character, much to the dismay of Ness fans, most noticeably his dair."
"Kirby (カービィ, Kābii) is a character in all three games of the Super Smash Bros. series. Although tier-wise he was one of the best characters in the original Super Smash Bros., in Super Smash Bros. Melee, he became one of the worst."
Jazriel
Smash Ace
Beab, you're an idiot. I don't mean to bring an immature and blatantly offensive statement into this so-far decent discussion, but you make no sense.
And did everyone completely ignore my first post? >_> I already explained the two usages of the word cheap and what they actually mean.
And did everyone completely ignore my first post? >_> I already explained the two usages of the word cheap and what they actually mean.
Ok.
As a fighting game buff, I have a pretty good idea of what cheap is, having seen it too many times for my own liking.
Cheap: A technique that, when used, restricts the opponents freedom for full play and manueverablity, putting them at a disadvantage unless they can counter it, despite being completely between the rules. Generally are difficult to counter as well, or at least take some time to figure out. Once one figures out how to counter it, it does not become effective anymore.
An Example: The Ryu Technique: Shooting Hadokens repeatedly until the opponent comes close, in which case.
Another Example: The Dizzy Technique: Continually using a 1-Hit KO move to win matches against the unprepared, instead of actually defeating them (Note: is only cheap if this is used over and over again an extreme amount of times)
Wavedashing is technically not cheap because it isn't part of the game, it's a glich, as such, it is technically a cheat or, at best, an exploit.
Casual players dislike cheapness, myself included, because they play for fun, and a restricting environment generally impedes that, as well as producing an feeling of being cheated.
Tournement Players turn a blind eye to cheapness because they play to win, and thus have no qualms about using.
After a while, both types of players can become indifferent to cheapness, as, while restricting and somewhat unfair, they are also usually simple and generally amateur-ish, and, once a counter is discovered, become somewhat useless unless part of a bigger strategy.
However, I often hear people call others cheap for reasons that aren't cheap at all. Mostly you hear people who are both arrogant and immature at the same time (the kind of person who takes to insulting those who beat him/her), and, instead of losing with grace, proclaims that their opponent was cheap. Thus, calling out cheap has been seen as the call of a whiner, which it really isn't.
So, as such, cheapness while cheapness can be countered it still takes away from the freedom of the game, although it can still be fun finding a strategy of your own to overcome the assailing strategy.
As a fighting game buff, I have a pretty good idea of what cheap is, having seen it too many times for my own liking.
Cheap: A technique that, when used, restricts the opponents freedom for full play and manueverablity, putting them at a disadvantage unless they can counter it, despite being completely between the rules. Generally are difficult to counter as well, or at least take some time to figure out. Once one figures out how to counter it, it does not become effective anymore.
An Example: The Ryu Technique: Shooting Hadokens repeatedly until the opponent comes close, in which case.
Another Example: The Dizzy Technique: Continually using a 1-Hit KO move to win matches against the unprepared, instead of actually defeating them (Note: is only cheap if this is used over and over again an extreme amount of times)
Wavedashing is technically not cheap because it isn't part of the game, it's a glich, as such, it is technically a cheat or, at best, an exploit.
Casual players dislike cheapness, myself included, because they play for fun, and a restricting environment generally impedes that, as well as producing an feeling of being cheated.
Tournement Players turn a blind eye to cheapness because they play to win, and thus have no qualms about using.
After a while, both types of players can become indifferent to cheapness, as, while restricting and somewhat unfair, they are also usually simple and generally amateur-ish, and, once a counter is discovered, become somewhat useless unless part of a bigger strategy.
However, I often hear people call others cheap for reasons that aren't cheap at all. Mostly you hear people who are both arrogant and immature at the same time (the kind of person who takes to insulting those who beat him/her), and, instead of losing with grace, proclaims that their opponent was cheap. Thus, calling out cheap has been seen as the call of a whiner, which it really isn't.
So, as such, cheapness while cheapness can be countered it still takes away from the freedom of the game, although it can still be fun finding a strategy of your own to overcome the assailing strategy.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
@Tobi: I'm honestly shocked that nobody responded to a lot of your posts in this thread. So I'll try to address them.
As far as items go: items aren't a part of your character (except if you are Peach). One cannot train really hard and pull a specific item out of thin air. Because the access to said items is outside of their control, and the fact that they are inherently random, it could potentially favor one player more than another due to luck. On top of that there is also the whole crate and barrel issue which I know you are aware of.
So yeah, you can work hard and find ways around a fox that is using gimp KO strategies, but you can't train hard to prevent yourself from getting unlucky nor could you train hard enough to allow Bowser to catch up to a Fox player skilled in navigating Great Bay and Hyrule.
I'm fairly certain that you have read the reasonings for a lot of stage bans, so I don't think I would have to go into specific stages, but overall when a stage grants a specific character an overwhelming advantage of virtually every other character in the game, then it forces one in tournament play to use that character. As is the case with Great Bay and Hyrule, fox reigns supreme due to being able to tack on damage with the laser and run the rest of the match. If we allowed this in tournaments then whenever someone counterpicks Hyrule you'd HAVE to pick fox in order to win the match. That greatly reduces depth and is detrimental to determining overall skill so it is banned.
As far as items go: items aren't a part of your character (except if you are Peach). One cannot train really hard and pull a specific item out of thin air. Because the access to said items is outside of their control, and the fact that they are inherently random, it could potentially favor one player more than another due to luck. On top of that there is also the whole crate and barrel issue which I know you are aware of.
So yeah, you can work hard and find ways around a fox that is using gimp KO strategies, but you can't train hard to prevent yourself from getting unlucky nor could you train hard enough to allow Bowser to catch up to a Fox player skilled in navigating Great Bay and Hyrule.
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CodeBlack, do not resurrect the glitch discussions.
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=67
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=12
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=49
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=67
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=12
http://blog.smashnexus.net/?p=49
orintemple
Smash Lord
Yea really, the glitch thing is done with. Has been for a while. It isn't a glitch get over it.
Agent CC
Smash Rookie
I am very glad that my simple prompt started this questioning, bickering, and thought that many of you haven't tapped into for quite some time now.
I will think of more.
Also on the cheap thing I only asked due to my weak friends that play with me and I cant stand it when they have to team on me to even get close to beating me, or when they refuse to play due to my skill with completely legit characters. To tell the truth it makes me laugh when they throw stuff and start to yell.
I will think of more.
Also on the cheap thing I only asked due to my weak friends that play with me and I cant stand it when they have to team on me to even get close to beating me, or when they refuse to play due to my skill with completely legit characters. To tell the truth it makes me laugh when they throw stuff and start to yell.
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
There is no such thing as cheap, unless there is a sale at BestBuy. The word "Cheap" is used just to make an excuse to as when you are probably losing to another person.
orintemple
Smash Lord
If I am playing with bad players I purposely have them team against me. It is kind of sad when you 2 stock 3 people at once but that's what they get I guess. Rather play with newbs than no one.
Pyr0
Smash Ace
Q: What is Cheap?
Q: ...a John
Q: ...a John
HarryTheChin
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Dec 17, 2007
- Messages
- 815
Exactly, that is a way to put it.
Agent CC
Smash Rookie
This conversation is straying from the point, but do you guys think that there will be cheapness, or what most people just call glitches will be in brawl?