What if Smash 4 turned out to be a great competitive game?

[Deleted member 245254]

Sure Brawl is competitive, but it's not really fun to watch or play. All anyone really wants is a game that has a high skill ceiling, and is fun to watch and play. Brawl has none of this. Sure for items on FFA it may be fine, but for anything more , it's a steaming pile. No one needs to "respect" it's play style. If a game is not fun, you don't have to hold it in some high regard.

Many people find Brawl fun to play. This is ignorant.

Go find a different game if Smash is not as you feel it should be. Gaming I hear has become a large market.

 

[Mensrea]

Many people find Brawl fun to play. This is ignorant.

Go find a different game if Smash is not as you feel it should be. Gaming I hear has become a large market.

I was stating my opinion, and speaking generally about people who like competitive smash. I know lots of people who love the craziness of an items on FFA in Brawl. Myself included. Though if your goal is to have a competitive, deep, challenging, and rewarding experience Brawl is not the game for you.

 

[ferioku]

All I know is Sakurai shouldn't fail to impress the competitive players because he did promise that this game will cater to both sides of the community, sick and tired of hearing everyone bash on this game because of Sakurai. When making a game, you really need to put the fans in mind, most games have been doing it recently, and creating a game 100% the way you want it to be is like throwing away a large chunk of your fans. It's impossible to even tell how the final product for the game will turn out which just frustrates me, I still remember the time when people where supporting brawl saying give it time and it will improve "it has the potential of being the best game ever" in the end the final product for the game was even worse than the demo. I still have high hopes for this game and want it to succeed but I don't even know anymore...

It honestly makes me laugh when people say it's slower than brawl though, thats taking it waaaaaay too far...

 

[pizzapie7]

I don't walk in to churches on Sunday morning talking about how God isn't real and everyone there is just wasting their time just because I have an opinion, which is more or less the equivalent of coming on to Smashboards and saying the next Smash game is going to suck.

I could say the same thing about coming to Smashboards (the home of the competitive Smash Bros community since the competitive Smash Bros community more or less started to exist) and saying that the competitive merit of the new Smash Bros game is irrelevant, couldn't I?

Not that there is anything wrong with not being competitive, but I'm curious as to how I'm bugging the hell out of people. I'm not the one who goes out of the way to post my ambivalence toward a topic (like the original person I quoted). I'm all cool with other people having different opinions, that's what discussions are for. But isn't coming into a thread about something you don't care about, just to say you don't care about it, I think that's closer to bugging people than anything I've done.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

On the stale moves issue, I think it's good to point out that, so far, the reports seem to be that stale moves work slightly different than before. Moves do not gradually grow stale, rather, they are fresh OR stale. This is a much more intuitive system and should aid attackers when setting themselves up for their best combos or approaches.

What? Are you saying that instead of moves gradually weakening, they just suddenly drop in power after a certain number of uses?

Proof of that; their opinion of Project M, which was specifically made for them. I immediately lost all respect for Hungrybox and Mew2King when I saw their comments on it.

Some of M2K's words were misinterpreted, whilst most of the rest were read too much into. He don't like PM too much? He can feel that way it's all good. If you've seen False's "what is Smash Bros?" video then you'll know that M2K supports players trying their best to improve, regardless of what game or mod they choose to play.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

I was stating my opinion, and speaking generally about people who like competitive smash. I know lots of people who love the craziness of an items on FFA in Brawl. Myself included. Though if your goal is to have a competitive, deep, challenging, and rewarding experience Brawl is not the game for you.

I was just giving you my opinion on what I think your best move is based on your opinion.

I could say the same thing about coming to Smashboards (the home of the competitive Smash Bros community since the competitive Smash Bros community more or less started to exist) and saying that the competitive merit of the new Smash Bros game is irrelevant, couldn't I?

Not that there is anything wrong with not being competitive, but I'm curious as to how I'm bugging the hell out of people. I'm not the one who goes out of the way to post my ambivalence toward a topic (like the original person I quoted). I'm all cool with other people having different opinions, that's what discussions are for. But isn't coming into a thread about something you don't care about, just to say you don't care about it, I think that's closer to bugging people than anything I've done.

It's totally fine that you have an opinion, I'm all for that.

It's absolute-ish statements on the as-of-yet released Smash 4 that become rather irritating. I stated in another thread that while apprehensiveness is perfectly fine, verbally "giving up" on the game before it even came out is just whinging. Not an opinion, and that annoys everyone else for the simple purpose of trying to make yourself feel better or validate yourself in a mass of people who are excited for the game.

To put it simply, if you have already given up on the game, go play something else. It's like some people stick around to bash the game purely to bring others hopes down. The internet is a slimey place where most anything on the rotten scale has been committed. Assuming the worst is a regularity, and even advised in some cases.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

What? Are you saying that instead of moves gradually weakening, they just suddenly drop in power after a certain number of uses?

From what I heard, it seems more like they just suddenly drop in power after 1 use, sometimes even with massive changes in terms of knockback behaviour and damage output. So by keeping certain moves stale vs. fresh, you can set up combos and finishers.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Some of M2K's words were misinterpreted, whilst most of the rest were read too much into. He don't like PM too much? He can feel that way it's all good. If you've seen False's "what is Smash Bros?" video then you'll know that M2K supports players trying their best to improve, regardless of what game or mod they choose to play.

I thought he outright called P:M players "frauds".

That said, I haven't seen the actual post itself. I try to stay away from Reddit.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I thought he outright called P:M players "frauds".

That said, I haven't seen the actual post itself. I try to stay away from Reddit.

The thing was that he had an issue with PM players claiming that they're good because they can exploit their character's abilities without good fundamentals to back up their "skill". He also refused to state which players he had in mind, which certainly didn't help clear any of the confusion.

From what I heard, it seems more like they just suddenly drop in power after 1 use, sometimes even with massive changes in terms of knockback behaviour and damage output. So by keeping certain moves stale vs. fresh, you can set up combos and finishers.

That's incredibly strange. I guess people might avoid using their KO moves as liberally this time around. Like even more so than in Brawl.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I was stating my opinion, and speaking generally about people who like competitive smash. I know lots of people who love the craziness of an items on FFA in Brawl. Myself included. Though if your goal is to have a competitive, deep, challenging, and rewarding experience Brawl is not the game for you.

Brawl is actually pretty bad in terms of all items FFA. There are way too many OP items and the stages either tend to be overcrowded or too spread out. Smash 64 is the game that really does 4-player FFA right in terms of items and stages. I can actually only really enjoy Brawl either using competitive rules or some sort of off-the-wall type Special Brawl. Personally I enjoy competitive Brawl because I like competitive Smash on a cerebral level but don't really have the reflexes for Melee. I even like watching competitive Brawl as long as it isn't a MU that's based around a janky CG or involves Meta-planking.

 

[Aninymouse]

What? Are you saying that instead of moves gradually weakening, they just suddenly drop in power after a certain number of uses?

Basically, yes.

Dunno if it's after one use, though. I haven't heard that it's that drastic. I mean, it's possible, but I'm not sure. But even if it is that drastic, I would assume that moves must refresh very fast as well, to compensate.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought he outright called P:M players "frauds".

That said, I haven't seen the actual post itself. I try to stay away from Reddit.

M2K has a bad habit if wording himself sometimes in ways that can get to people.

What he meant was a gimmick or something people aren't used to seeing, the mod changes some movesets a lot.

I didn't know ness's side B ignited on shield in PM with basically no good way to SDI out fast enough til yesterday. Dude I was playing still outplayed and beat me legit but I didn't know some of things he was doing or what to watch out for.

M2K probably meant something like that where they only succeed in PM and nothing else. Granted I don't agree with that entirely but I get where he was talking about this.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

M2K has a bad habit if wording himself sometimes in ways that can get to people.

What he meant was a gimmick or something people aren't used to seeing, the mod changes some movesets a lot.

I didn't know ness's side B ignited on shield in PM with basically no good way to SDI out fast enough til yesterday. Dude I was playing still outplayed and beat me legit but I didn't know some of things he was doing or what to watch out for.

M2K probably meant something like that where they only succeed in PM and nothing else. Granted I don't agree with that entirely but I get where he was talking about this.

I think people all too often are being apologists.

M2K is a twenty-something like a lot of us, so a lot of the stuff he says is going to be downright, un-holistically salty and emotionally charged. This isn't like the medical field where there are facts and a doctor is intended to present those facts as prudently and informatively as possible. M2K is human as everyone else so he does what everyone else has the tendency to do occasionally : piss and moan.

The worst part is people actually listen to his pissing and moaning and try to say that he's just being misinterpreted or that he doesn't word himself well. Maybe just consider he's socially inept and gets salty like the rest of us?

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

The worst part is people actually listen to his pissing and moaning and try to say that he's just being misinterpreted or that he doesn't word himself well. Maybe just consider he's socially inept and gets salty like the rest of us?

Whilst I'm not going to say that he is "socially inept" as that's a very bold claim and I don't personally know the dude so it's kind of a **** move, I'm pretty sure that an inability to express oneself in a way that many people can understand is a form of social inadequacy. Just sayin.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Whilst I'm not going to say that he is "socially inept" as that's a very bold claim and I don't personally know the dude so it's kind of a **** move, I'm pretty sure that an inability to express oneself in a way that many people can understand to be a form of social inadequacy. Just sayin.

Well you don't have to. The documentary did. He continues to corroborate it every time I see an interview with him too.

 

[Aninymouse]

What is this, the piss on M2K thread? Quit it. Thread's just gonna get locked and then your main optimism thread will be gone. I ain't making another one when this one falls apart...

 

[Superior Spider-Mew]

I feel like the minority here where I would be glad if its a good competitive game but at the same time I really dont care because I don't play video games for them to to be competitive. I play them for entertainment and yes I do have my favorite franchises, Smash Bros is definitely one of them. I'm overjoyed that the new smash bros game is so close to its release, I'm not even remotely worried about its competitive play because whether it is or not, I'm still going to love it. I mostly play Project M but regardless I love all the Smash Bros game equally because dude its a game with my favorite Nintendo characters fighting, how could I not love this series?

 

[ferioku]

What is this, the piss on M2K thread? Quit it. Thread's just gonna get locked and then your main optimism thread will be gone. I ain't making another one when this one falls apart...

Even without the M2K hate the thread is still very negative

 

[Sensei]

If the game is fun when I play it, then I don't care if it's "competitive" or not. I will still SMASH my rivals and come out victorious!

 

[Tristan_win]

Basically, yes.

Dunno if it's after one use, though. I haven't heard that it's that drastic. I mean, it's possible, but I'm not sure. But even if it is that drastic, I would assume that moves must refresh very fast as well, to compensate.

Maybe it's because I've grown rather attached to the current decay system but I really hope they don't change it. There's already a pretty steep drop in power from being fresh (1.05 power) to being only a little bit stale (.9+). I use to add like 10% if I knew my Sheik usmash was even a little stale when I was trying to kill.

Edit: on a unrelated note I sometimes wish smashboards had a dislike option just for post like Zipzo's right below mine.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

What is this, the piss on M2K thread? Quit it. Thread's just gonna get locked and then your main optimism thread will be gone. I ain't making another one when this one falls apart...

I got to be honest...it's relevant. When were talking about the obstacles for Smash 4's competitive success, the community is one of them. Players at M2K's tier (unfortunately) have an influential voice and when they continuously allow themselves to be "misinterpreted" (IE denounce a game for sucking or that their players are frauds), it has a rippling effect on how others begin to view the game.

All it takes is someone like him saying Smash 4 takes no skill and will fail competitively and boom...we have a waterfall of binge whiners who will do everything in their power to make it a self-fulfilled prophecy.

We can't let them think that because they are good at Melee, that they should have a free pass at verbally ****ting on (with authority) other smash games with different design goals, and at the same time people need to be less like sheep and form their own opinions. I'm not saying all people who feel sketchy about Smash 4 don't but it's a thing, trust me.

It's mostly an echoed effect of the Smash community being generally...well...immature. A lot of the top players we have now started in this community as, like, preteens. It's not really a very professional image we have, though commentators lately have made an exceptional effort towards fixing that issue.

So M2K and Hbox's recent-ish tirades on PM IMO are incredibly relevant to the Smash 4 situation because there is a majorly visible parallel.

 

[D-idara]

I got to be honest...it's relevant. When were talking about the obstacles for Smash 4's competitive success, the community is one of them. Players at M2K's tier (unfortunately) have an influential voice and when they continuously allow themselves to be "misinterpreted" (IE denounce a game for sucking or that their players are frauds), it has a rippling effect on how others begin to view the game.

All it takes is someone like him saying Smash 4 takes no skill and will fail competitively and boom...we have a waterfall of binge whiners who will do everything in their power to make it a self-fulfilled prophecy.

We can't let them think that because they are good at Melee, that they should have a free pass at verbally ****ting on (with authority) other smash games with different design goals, and at the same time people need to be less like sheep and form their own opinions. I'm not saying all people who feel sketchy about Smash 4 don't but it's a thing, trust me.

It's mostly an echoed effect of the Smash community being generally...well...immature. A lot of the top players we have now started in this community as, like, preteens. It's not really a very professional image we have, though commentators lately have made an exceptional effort towards fixing that issue.

So M2K and Hbox's recent-ish tirades on PM IMO are incredibly relevant to the Smash 4 situation because there is a majorly visible parallel.

It's especially worrying because PM's designed to play like Melee, so if they ditch a hyper-competitive game like PM because 'It's not Melee' then we can safely assume that it doesn't matter if Smash4 turns out to be the holy grail of competitive depth, with both offensive and defensive options and fast-paced, exciting gameplay, some of the community's higher-ups will still find things to ***** about and try to bring the game down

 

[The Slayer]

Is sad that NO ONE complained in the melee days.... but now smashboards is a mess thans to brawl and now SSB4

And at the same time, I heard people complained in every transition. Maybe not as outspoken and in-transition like Brawl and Smash 4, but "no one" sounds too far-fetched. And ironically, a known pro went back to 64 after deeming Melee "too boring."

Maybe it's because I've grown rather attached to the current decay system but I really hope they don't change it. There's already a pretty steep drop in power from being fresh (1.05 power) to being only a little bit stale (.9+). I use to add like 10% if I knew my Sheik usmash was even a little stale when I was trying to kill.

Edit: on a unrelated note I sometimes wish smashboards had a dislike option just for post like Zipzo's right below mine.

Well, judging how certain topics about some people here playing the demo, it didn't seem like Shiek is going to suffer too much of the decay system in Smash 4. In fact, it might even help her strings out in the end. At worst, it'll be a lot of managing with Smash attacks now than anything.

Also, there's an ignore button for that. Not that they never have a good point, but saves you a lot of pointless banter when it become excessive.

 

[Aninymouse]

I got to be honest...it's relevant. When were talking about the obstacles for Smash 4's competitive success, the community is one of them. Players at M2K's tier (unfortunately) have an influential voice and when they continuously allow themselves to be "misinterpreted" (IE denounce a game for sucking or that their players are frauds), it has a rippling effect on how others begin to view the game.

All it takes is someone like him saying Smash 4 takes no skill and will fail competitively and boom...we have a waterfall of binge whiners who will do everything in their power to make it a self-fulfilled prophecy.

We can't let them think that because they are good at Melee, that they should have a free pass at verbally ****ting on (with authority) other smash games with different design goals, and at the same time people need to be less like sheep and form their own opinions. I'm not saying all people who feel sketchy about Smash 4 don't but it's a thing, trust me.

It's mostly an echoed effect of the Smash community being generally...well...immature. A lot of the top players we have now started in this community as, like, preteens. It's not really a very professional image we have, though commentators lately have made an exceptional effort towards fixing that issue.

So M2K and Hbox's recent-ish tirades on PM IMO are incredibly relevant to the Smash 4 situation because there is a majorly visible parallel.

You make a convincing case, but even so... This isn't that other thread. I'm not saying we MUST make Smash 4 succeed. I just believe it will succeed, because I believe it will be good. If it turns out I'm wrong and it's not good (which I feel is not likely), then it will do lackluster at best and people won't care about it at all in a year. But, like I said, I don't get the impression that that is what will happen.

 

[LancerStaff]

Nah, its about the same timing. Just that you refuse to push buttons and complain on why you're not good. In fact the double B reversal has about the same amount of inputs as a wavedash, even more if you're using a character with a chargeable B Move

I'm actually not horrible at Wavedashing and the like. Not complaining that I'm not good, just pointing out why it was removed. B reversals are easy, Wavedashing is not so easy. Is it that hard to understand?

Smash is suppose to be easier to learn hard to master there was nothing hard or worth mastering last go around since it was for beginners only.

Tech skill is tech skill, nothing more. I want to see actual skill in a game. By your line of thought, Pokemon isn't competitive because there's no tech skill.

Spoiler

Nice job with the whole making Melee players look bad thing. Maybe Brawl will replace Melee like you want soon.

 

[StarLight42]

I'm actually not horrible at Wavedashing and the like. Not complaining that I'm not good, just pointing out why it was removed. B reversals are easy, Wavedashing is not so easy. Is it that hard to understand?



Tech skill is tech skill, nothing more. I want to see actual skill in a game. By your line of thought, Pokemon isn't competitive because there's no tech skill.

Spoiler

Nice job with the whole making Melee players look bad thing. Maybe Brawl will replace Melee like you want soon.

Brawl's not going to ever be played competitively thanks to Project M.

 

[LancerStaff]

Brawl's not going to ever be played competitively thanks to Project M.

Spoiler

Long story short, I'm poking fun at Renji's extreme bitterness.

 

[pizzapie7]

It's especially worrying because PM's designed to play like Melee, so if they ditch a hyper-competitive game like PM because 'It's not Melee' then we can safely assume that it doesn't matter if Smash4 turns out to be the holy grail of competitive depth, with both offensive and defensive options and fast-paced, exciting gameplay, some of the community's higher-ups will still find things to ***** about and try to bring the game down

There are reasons to not play PM that aren't 'It's not Melee', though. I think you're worrying too much.

 

[Renji64]

I'm actually not horrible at Wavedashing and the like. Not complaining that I'm not good, just pointing out why it was removed. B reversals are easy, Wavedashing is not so easy. Is it that hard to understand?



Tech skill is tech skill, nothing more. I want to see actual skill in a game. By your line of thought, Pokemon isn't competitive because there's no tech skill.

Spoiler

Nice job with the whole making Melee players look bad thing. Maybe Brawl will replace Melee like you want soon.

Pokemon is a turnbased game I don't keep up with it or it's scene. Brawl didn't give me anything to really practice or get better at.

 

[Nat Perry]

I play Brawl a lot more than I play Melee, barring multiplayer. Brawl gave me more of everything I liked in Smash plus more. Although I will say that it was more of an expansion than a progression for the series, although the game did both of those to some degree.

Smash 4 seems like a great balance of expanding and progressing the series. Maybe it won't do as well as Melee competitively but I can see a scene going on for a little while. I'd like to be proven wrong though.

 

[Admiral Pit]

No random tripping alone already makes me happy. If it becomes really good competitively, I'll be most grateful, especially if custom moves are in the mix.

 

[LancerStaff]

Pokemon is a turnbased game I don't keep up with it or it's scene. Brawl didn't give me anything to really practice or get better at.

Practice the matchups, both against characters and players. Personally, I find tech skill hollow and worthless, and this is coming from a Super Metroid fan working on diagonal bomb jumps lol.

 

[Johnknight1]

Practice the matchups, both against characters and players. Personally, I find tech skill hollow and worthless, and this is coming from a Super Metroid fan working on diagonal bomb jumps lol.

Tech skill = being able to perform what you want to perform.

Sorry, but that's not "hollow and worthless", that's how champs are made.

That's a big thing that separates Isai in 64 and Mango in Melee from everyone else.

 

[D-idara]

Tech skill = being able to perform what you want to perform.

Sorry, but that's not "hollow and worthless", that's how champs are made.

That's a big thing that separates Isai in 64 and Mango in Melee from everyone else.

Actually, Tech skill = Stupid.
If the game's well-designed, you can do whatever you want to do without getting carpal tunnel.

 

[Johnknight1]

Actually, Tech skill = Stupid.
If the game's well-designed, you can do whatever you want to do without getting carpal tunnel.

Tech skill = the ability to do something.

It's from the word "technical", which means (according to Merriam-Webster) "having special and usually practical knowledge especially of a mechanical or scientific subject."

Like, for instance, a chain grab requires precise timing. That requires the knowledge and muscle memory to perform it. Similarly, weight lifting requires that for timing of say pushing a weight up and stopping it on the way down. Walking requires muscle memory in when and where to move one leg, and when and where to move another leg.

Saying this just to belittle Melee players is just frankly childish.

It's one thing if you want the technical entry barrier to be less than Melee (Brawl's is pretty high with several chain grabs and combos), but you don't have to be a "feed me the likes" jerk about it.

This is especially true since you've made it known you disagree with all competitive play, thus it doesn't even concern you in the slightest.

Heck, why are you even in this thread since you dislike competitive play=???

 

[pizzapie7]

Actually, Tech skill = Stupid.
If the game's well-designed, you can do whatever you want to do without getting carpal tunnel.

Any game that requires a decent APM isn't well designed then? Tech skill isn't stupid in and of itself. It's a necessity many games unless you want to map every theoretical option possible to it's own button.

 

[Johnknight1]

Any game that requires a decent APM isn't well designed then? Tech skill isn't stupid in and of itself. It's a necessity many games unless you want to map every theoretical option possible to it's own button.

Besides if everyone is able to do everything at the same speed and with the same ease, that evens the playing field and makes it "less varied" and thus "less interesting".

Imagine if in basketball everyone in the NBA could shoot a three pointer as well as Steph Curry. That would make the NBA a heck of a lot less interesting, and it would make that specific skill that Steph Curry has less valuable because literally everyone can do it.

Having different levels and aspects of technical skill, strategic skill, character-centric skills, tactical skills, and playstyle skills creates a more interesting and open dynamic of skills and skillsets for players in Smash Bros.

Smash Bros. is a very open and varied game, so having a very open and varied player pool with very varied talents and specialties makes it all the better.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Maybe it's because I've grown rather attached to the current decay system but I really hope they don't change it. There's already a pretty steep drop in power from being fresh (1.05 power) to being only a little bit stale (.9+). I use to add like 10% if I knew my Sheik usmash was even a little stale when I was trying to kill.

Edit: on a unrelated note I sometimes wish smashboards had a dislike option just for post like Zipzo's right below mine.

You can vote with your words if you'd like, what reason have you to dislike the post?

It's blatant truth that top players are influential in their words and historically have been a root cause of publicly shaming a game (especially M2K and Mango...know why they didn't get invited to the invitational?).

I can't fathom why you would be emotionally inclined to dislike fact.

Tech skill = being able to perform what you want to perform.

Sorry, but that's not "hollow and worthless", that's how champs are made.

That's a big thing that separates Isai in 64 and Mango in Melee from everyone else.

This is precisely the kind of separation Sakurai is attempting to avoid with Smash 4. I would just start trying to cope with your loss starting now, because if you think about it the discussion is going to get nowhere discussing the merits of game mechanics that have absolutely a snowballs chance in hell of being in Smash 4.

It's not as though you are incorrect, but it is no longer the design goal of Smash, so continuing to make a brazen argument out of it is fruitless anyhow. I'm simply insisting that it's a waste of our effort.

 

[Johnknight1]

This is precisely the kind of separation Sakurai is attempting to avoid with Smash 4. I would just start trying to cope with your loss starting now, because if you think about it the discussion is going to get nowhere discussing the merits of game mechanics that have absolutely a snowballs chance in hell of being in Smash 4.

Tech skill is inherently a part of Smash. Some people can press A faster than other people. Nothing Sakurai can do will EVER, EVER, EVER change that fact.

Tech skill is in 64, in Melee, in Brawl, and BREAKING NEWS IT IS IN SMASH FOUR WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!!

Advanced techniques are in Smash 4 as well. We've already discovered a dozen or so. We're going to find dozens more. Brawl had dozens more advanced techniques and technical things than Melee ever did, but no one ever seems to notice outside of people who are actually "in the know"

Once you understand the totality tech skill and technicality in smash bros and advanced techniques, you are realize it is a core mechanic of smash bros that will never go away as long as the CONTROL remains in the hands of the players holding THE CONTROLLERS!!!

It's a very basic mechanic of smash, and unless Sakurai and co. changes that (aka makes Smash not a video game), it will remain there forever.

If you actually understood Smash as much as you think you did, you would understand this at the core of the subject.

It's not as though you are incorrect, but it is no longer the design goal of Smash, so continuing to make a brazen argument out of it is fruitless anyhow. I'm simply insisting that it's a waste of our effort.

No, you're using big words to say "shut up". Stop acting like Morbid. It makes you look stupid, not smart.

Say what you mean, not some muddled down "brazen fruitless Brazzers" parade of words that you have to repeat twice.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Pretty much I agree with this.

Honestly, players like HBox only survive because they know how to do one thing.

With HBox, it's stay safe, be defensive, and punish HARD!!!! Now it's a cool skill to have, and no one is better at it than him, but take that away from him and what's left=???

Not a whole lot.

If you've seen HBox play other games or other characters where that's not as strong, he doesn't win. At all.

He's so used to his way of playing that he can't adapt to another way, or at least not as easily as other players.

PPMD on the other hand, is used to one style in particular: pressure. He is all about pressure. Now he's not as good at his skill as HBox is at his in any particular way, other than he can adjust his style to be more "full" and cover more things. In other words, his style adjusts to more characters (which is why he uses Marth and Falco), more skills, more sub-playstyles, and yes, more games than HBox with a lot more ease.

Conversely, M2K had troubles adapting initially. He always did "the most economic/smartest move", and did things "the most economic way" instead of "the most technical "the best mix ups" or "the least predictable move". Now M2K's "most economic/smartest way" works at a high level of play in any fighting game. That's a fact. However, he had to adapt to remain a truly top player, especially after Mango hit the scene.

That's why M2K will always be a top smasher at whatever Smash game he chooses to play.

So you're describing Melee players' style of play, a different game from Smash 4...what exactly is your point here?

Smash 4 will have its own set of gods. Stop using the tech skill argument to imply that being the best at Smash 4 will be a newbie crapshoot. It will most certainly take skill to be a Smash 4 god. Just a different kind of skill. A cerebral type. Such differences exist in competitive gaming, there isn't just one way to make a Smash game.