What if Smash 4 turned out to be a great competitive game?

[Johnknight1]

M2K has a bad habit if wording himself sometimes in ways that can get to people.

What he meant was a gimmick or something people aren't used to seeing, the mod changes some movesets a lot.

M2K probably meant something like that where they only succeed in PM and nothing else. Granted I don't agree with that entirely but I get where he was talking about this.

Pretty much I agree with this.

Honestly, players like HBox only survive because they know how to do one thing.

With HBox, it's stay safe, be defensive, and punish HARD!!!! Now it's a cool skill to have, and no one is better at it than him, but take that away from him and what's left=???

Not a whole lot.

If you've seen HBox play other games or other characters where that's not as strong, he doesn't win. At all.

He's so used to his way of playing that he can't adapt to another way, or at least not as easily as other players.

PPMD on the other hand, is used to one style in particular: pressure. He is all about pressure. Now he's not as good at his skill as HBox is at his in any particular way, other than he can adjust his style to be more "full" and cover more things. In other words, his style adjusts to more characters (which is why he uses Marth and Falco), more skills, more sub-playstyles, and yes, more games than HBox with a lot more ease.

Conversely, M2K had troubles adapting initially. He always did "the most economic/smartest move", and did things "the most economic way" instead of "the most technical "the best mix ups" or "the least predictable move". Now M2K's "most economic/smartest way" works at a high level of play in any fighting game. That's a fact. However, he had to adapt to remain a truly top player, especially after Mango hit the scene.

That's why M2K will always be a top smasher at whatever Smash game he chooses to play.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Tech skill is inherently a part of Smash. Some people can press A faster than other people. Nothing Sakurai can do will EVER, EVER, EVER change that fact.

Tech skill is in 64, in Melee, in Brawl, and BREAKING NEWS IT IS IN SMASH FOUR WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!!

Advanced techniques are in Smash 4 as well. We've already discovered a dozen or so. We're going to find dozens more. Brawl had dozens more advanced techniques and technical things than Melee ever did, but no one ever seems to notice outside of people who are actually "in the know"

Once you understand the totality tech skill and technicality in smash bros and advanced techniques, you are realize it is a core mechanic of smash bros that will never go away as long as the CONTROL remains in the hands of the players holding THE CONTROLLERS!!!

It's a very basic mechanic of smash, and unless Sakurai and co. changes that (aka makes Smash not a video game), it will remain there forever.

If you actually understood Smash as much as you think you did, you would understand this at the core of the subject.

No, you're using big words to say "shut up". Stop acting like Morbid. It makes you look stupid, not smart.

Say what you mean, not some muddled down "brazen fruitless Brazzers" parade of words that you have to repeat twice.

You are actually insisting that pressing "A" is considered tech skill for the good of your argument? This should be the new Godwin.

Pressing A is simple, pressing A at a precise moment is simple but has depth depending on your timing. Pressing a collection of buttons in a precise manner to achieve a precise input is not simple, and neither are the applications of any technique that requires such.

This really is your worst argument. Pressing A is not an advanced technique.

 

[Johnknight1]

So you're describing Melee players' style of play, a different game from Smash 4...what exactly is your point here?

People with smaller areas of expertise won't translate well from Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, Project M, other fighting games, etc. as well.

M2K's style is very adaptive because he's got a strong "attack for the best and smartest" rewards style (which is why he is a top player at any smash game he chooses to be), whereas HBox isn't because his "defend and space and then punish hard" style is too specific, and thus doesn't adapt well to other characters in Melee, let alone other smash games.

Smash 4 will have its own set of gods.

If you read my post instead of strawman responded for people to click "like", you'd realize that wasn't close to my point. I was using the top Melee players as an example of showing how and why some skills translate and some don't.

Stop using the tech skill argument to imply that being the best at Smash 4 will be a newbie crapshoot.

If you have inferior tech skill in Smash 4, you are at a major disadvantage, just like if you don't have any strategic, tactical, recovery, offensive, or defensive skill.

It will most certainly take skill to be a Smash 4 god. Just a different kind of skill. A cerebral type.

No, you'll have to be good at the same basic skills in other smash games, no matter how "new" the game is. They will be presented in a different way, work in a different way, require you to think in a different way, and respond in a different way, but the overarching macro concepts of each playstyles in smash will remain the same.

Pressure heavy players aim to apply lots of pressure, defensive players rely on their defense to convert offense, offensive players rely heavily on landing offense, aerial-heavy players rely heavily on aerials, "smart/technical" players who aim to get the best reward with the least punishment will go for that, and so on.

The ability to see the differences from previous games to future games in this regard will separate those like M2K, ChuDat, and Neo who adapted from Melee to Brawl from players who are just good at other games.

It will also separate the good players from the great players, the okay players from the good players, and the best player from the next best player.

Such differences exist in competitive gaming, there isn't just one way to make a Smash game.

What does that have to do with what you're quoting=???

Nothing.

You're just using blanket statements on my specific comments about something on an entirely different subject to be "right".

You are failing at communicating right now so hard that if this were a college course you'd be dropped. After all, most of communication is LISTENING, and you clearly aren't listening (via reading) what I am saying at all.

 

[raymundoTheGod]

The Smash community will be torn apart soon because of this competitive argument. Why can't we appreciate each game for what it is?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Brawl's not going to ever be played competitively thanks to Project M.

IT's still being played and hosted so dunno where you are getting this from.

 

[Johnknight1]

You are actually insisting that pressing "A" is considered tech skill for the good of your argument? This should be the new Godwin.

It is "technical" in that the goal is to execute something. If you want to attack faster than your opponent, one way of accomplishing this is pressing buttons (which is executing a command) faster.

Usain Bolt outruns his foes by being faster than them, which is the technical goal of the 100m dash.

Pressing A is simple,

No, it is also executing a specific command that you intended.

pressing A at a precise moment is simple but has depth depending on your timing.

I'm not denying that. I'm just merely stating speed is a part of the technicality of pressing it too.

"Speed of movement" is ultimately what determines who wins races, thus is technical by concept.

Being faster with your command inputs is one of many ways of increasing the likelihood of your victory in smash bros.

Other things that increase your likelihood of winning in smash bros. is being technical/more technical (doing what you want to do), having a superior strategic skills, having superior tactical skills, having a better on the stage game, having a better off the stage game, having a better neutral game, being better on offense, being better on defense, being better with grab-related content, having better combos, being better at reads, being better at timing foes, being better in the air, being better on the ground, being better at punishes, being more unpredictable, playing a better character, playing and understanding the match ups better, having more practice, understanding and knowing stages more, understanding counters more, etc.

All of these will enable a player to win or have a better chance of winning.

Pressing a collection of buttons in a precise manner to achieve a precise input is not simple, and neither are the applications of any technique that requires such.

"Simple" is subjective. While it may be simple to you, pressing A a specific number of times in a close time window can be hard to achieve. However, in the realm of competitive smash bros, you must be willing to practice hard in order to achieve such a thing.

Pressing A+L/R+down/left on the control stick may not be hard to someone after practicing it a lot, but getting it down certainly is.

Getting the grab commands for chain grabs may not be hard to someone after practicing it a lot, but getting it down certainly is.

If you don't think there won't be such things in Smash 4 (hint: we already found them: that pivoting reverse attack, as well as the unique usages of buffering), you clearly haven't been paying attention.

This really is your worst argument. Pressing A is not an advanced technique.

I never said that. That's not my argument.

My argument is that one way to win is to be more technical than your opponents in that you press buttons faster than your opponent.

One way technically Amazon beat out competitors was having their shipping distributors send, ship, and have products arrive earlier than competitors. The same is true in Smash. Westballz in Melee routinely beats foes in part because of his precise and fast movement. Players try to keep up but they can't, and if they could, they often aren't as precise as he is.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think people all too often are being apologists.

M2K is a twenty-something like a lot of us, so a lot of the stuff he says is going to be downright, un-holistically salty and emotionally charged. This isn't like the medical field where there are facts and a doctor is intended to present those facts as prudently and informatively as possible. M2K is human as everyone else so he does what everyone else has the tendency to do occasionally : piss and moan.

The worst part is people actually listen to his pissing and moaning and try to say that he's just being misinterpreted or that he doesn't word himself well. Maybe just consider he's socially inept and gets salty like the rest of us?

Jason can say some dumb things for sure, but it isn't just because people talk **** for the sake of it, and for that same reason--no one will listen. People listen to what he has to say is because of his experience in smash.

As @ferioku said earlier, many players gave Brawl a chance, and just dug deep. Considering the numerous amounts of players experienced with not only the mechanics of the previous smashes, but also knew the encoded data (which you can clearly see the fruits of the results with the numerous game hacks) went in on the game, and found that the building blocks of the engine were completely stripped, though many were able to draw to that conclusion long ago. There were parts in the game that were clearly targeted to remove competitive viability from the game and added elements to further discourage it. Based on these events, why is bad to be at least somewhat skeptical of the outcome of the final product?

So yes, Jason (Mew2King) does say some things out of spite. But when it comes down to the wire he's a dude who just really loves smash, and experience to boot. So when it comes to believe the word of the inexperienced vs Jason?--I'll take bitter resentment over a display of abstract narcissism aimed to claim the credibility of an experienced player is negligible.

Not everything hides in plain site. Some things are what they are.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

People with smaller areas of expertise won't translate well from Smash 64, Melee, Brawl, Project M, other fighting games, etc. as well.

M2K's style is very adaptive because he's got a strong "attack for the best and smartest" rewards style (which is why he is a top player at any smash game he chooses to be), whereas HBox isn't because his "defend and space and then punish hard" style is too specific, and thus doesn't adapt well to other characters in Melee, let alone other smash games.

If you read my post instead of strawman responded for people to click "like", you'd realize that wasn't close to my point. I was using the top Melee players as an example of showing how and why some skills translate and some don't.

If you have inferior tech skill in Smash 4, you are at a major disadvantage, just like if you don't have any strategic, tactical, recovery, offensive, or defensive skill.

No, you'll have to be good at the same basic skills in other smash games, no matter how "new" the game is. They will be presented in a different way, work in a different way, require you to think in a different way, and respond in a different way, but the overarching macro concepts of each playstyles in smash will remain the same.

Pressure heavy players aim to apply lots of pressure, defensive players rely on their defense to convert offense, offensive players rely heavily on landing offense, aerial-heavy players rely heavily on aerials, "smart/technical" players who aim to get the best reward with the least punishment will go for that, and so on.

The ability to see the differences from previous games to future games in this regard will separate those like M2K, ChuDat, and Neo who adapted from Melee to Brawl from players who are just good at other games.

It will also separate the good players from the great players, the okay players from the good players, and the best player from the next best player.

What does that have to do with what you're quoting=???

Nothing.

You're just using blanket statements on my specific comments about something on an entirely different subject to be "right".

You are failing at communicating right now so hard that if this were a college course you'd be dropped. After all, most of communication is LISTENING, and you clearly aren't listening (via reading) what I am saying at all.

You are wrong.

I read every word, I just do not agree with you, but luckily for you I don't instantly revert to the "I just have a different opinion than you so that must make me wrong?!" ninny-nanny nonsense.

You clearly love and appreciate Melee more than anything the newer Smash games provide you, so I'm going to give you a practical piece of advice, not meant to be insulting in the slightest...play Melee. It won't hurt the community at all, simply keep the older versions alive. Smash 4 will bring it's own set of players to the table.

When you write these long winded Melee-praise posts you're just showing your bias, but it doesn't need to be bias, let it be a preference. Nobody is forcing you to move on to Smash 4, so rest easy.

 

[Johnknight1]

You clearly love and appreciate Melee more than anything the newer Smash games provide you,

How the hell did you get that out of my post=???

I'm using Melee because I know it the most. I used some of what I know about Brawl.

I would have pulled out Street Fighter, MvC, TvC, Soul Calibur, etc., but that would go over more people's heads that way.

I haven't played Smash WiiU and Smash 3DS for more than a dozen minutes combined, so I can't judge them for what they are. I can't appreciate them fully because I haven't played them, but quite frankly the skills I listed will all be in Smash 4, only in very, very, very different ways.

Besides that, all those things I listed are UNIVERSAL TO SMASH!!! IT'S ALL GOING TO BE A PART OF SMASH 4!!!

Smash 4 will bring it's own set of players to the table.

When did I say otherwise=???

When you write these long winded Melee-praise posts you're just showing your bias, but it doesn't need to be bias, let it be a preference. Nobody is forcing you to move on to Smash 4, so rest easy.

What type of dumb ego trip are you on=???

Jesus Christ I've made 5,000 posts in this forum because I AM EXCITED FOR THE NEW GAME!!!!

Who the hell are you to tell me what to do sarcastically=???

I love Melee because I LOVE PLAYING IT and I'm hyped for Smash 4 because I LOVE PREVIOUS SMASH GAMES AND THEIR MECHANICS AND THE POTENTIAL TO BE SOMETHING NEW AND UNIQUE!!!

So stop being a bitter a hole to me about it just because I am unafraid to show I enjoy Melee.

That gives you NO RIGHT to talk down to me or tell me I CAN'T LIKE NEW SMASH GAMES!!!

So please, get out hater.

This site is for REAL SMASH FANS who can appreciate each other's passions without stepping on them.

 

[Nat Perry]

Yo yo yo I'm just wondering who's gonna be the Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth of this game. Hmmmm. I'm going to guess two of them: Zero Suit Samus and Kirby as S-Tier fighters.

Man cuz I'm just sick of seeing Fox, Falco, Sheik, and Marth's booties in competitive Melee. I wanna see some more booty, nowamsayin'? More booty kickin' other people's booty. I would certainly appreciate dat.

I mean, Kirby ain't got no booty, but he got a backside. PC way of saying booty, amirite? Yeah.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Guys, let's chill out here. You can like whichever game you want, but don't **** on people for having a different opinion. Flaming comments are unneeded and if it continues, prepare for infractions.

This all said, @ Johnknight1 has no qualms with Smash 4. He's got a lot of interest in playing it. I talk with him about the game all the time.

 

[Sparklepower]

I got to be honest...it's relevant. When were talking about the obstacles for Smash 4's competitive success, the community is one of them. Players at M2K's tier (unfortunately) have an influential voice and when they continuously allow themselves to be "misinterpreted" (IE denounce a game for sucking or that their players are frauds), it has a rippling effect on how others begin to view the game.

All it takes is someone like him saying Smash 4 takes no skill and will fail competitively and boom...we have a waterfall of binge whiners who will do everything in their power to make it a self-fulfilled prophecy.

We can't let them think that because they are good at Melee, that they should have a free pass at verbally ****ting on (with authority) other smash games with different design goals, and at the same time people need to be less like sheep and form their own opinions. I'm not saying all people who feel sketchy about Smash 4 don't but it's a thing, trust me.

It's mostly an echoed effect of the Smash community being generally...well...immature. A lot of the top players we have now started in this community as, like, preteens. It's not really a very professional image we have, though commentators lately have made an exceptional effort towards fixing that issue.

So M2K and Hbox's recent-ish tirades on PM IMO are incredibly relevant to the Smash 4 situation because there is a majorly visible parallel.

You act like the Melee community is a braindead cult that follows the top players. They're not.
Many top melee players have said they dislike PM, a lot of people are still playing PM, it has a large community playing tournaments. Not as large as melee's, but larger than any of the other entries in the series, and as it's updated and becomes more robust, it has the potential of having a larger competitive following than smash 4 (in the long run, smash 4 will probably be huge when it's first release) and possibly even has the potential to become larger than melee.

If smash 4 does fail competitively, it'll be because it didn't serve what competitive players want, not because they're religiously following top melee player's opinions.

You are wrong.

I read every word, I just do not agree with you, but luckily for you I don't instantly revert to the "I just have a different opinion than you so that must make me wrong?!" ninny-nanny nonsense.

You clearly love and appreciate Melee more than anything the newer Smash games provide you, so I'm going to give you a practical piece of advice, not meant to be insulting in the slightest...play Melee. It won't hurt the community at all, simply keep the older versions alive. Smash 4 will bring it's own set of players to the table.

When you write these long winded Melee-praise posts you're just showing your bias, but it doesn't need to be bias, let it be a preference. Nobody is forcing you to move on to Smash 4, so rest easy.

If you disagree so much, how about actually elaborating on his post instead of constructing arguments against his character? All he really did in that post was define what 'technical' was, state that tech skills will be in smash 4 (some certainly will, no doubt) and that learning them will be a part of the game. I don't even see what there is to disagree with.

 

[Johnknight1]

IT's still being played and hosted so dunno where you are getting this from.

It still has had several tournaments with 50+ entrants this year.

It's nowhere near as Melee has gotten this year, but quite frankly, nothing has come close to what Melee is experiencing now in competitive Smash history.

It's a shame that the Brawl competitive community can't get behind this and use Melee's momentum to booster themselves.

The Brawl competitive community is incredible divided, and because of that, there is no real Brawl centric focus competitively as to where to go from here and how to improve, or even what site or format to use that won't face huge backlash from players.
Because of that, there are no high profile dedicated Brawl tournaments that are advertised frequently on sites outside of competitive smash sites like SWF and All is Brawl.
Because of that lack of centric advertising and focus, there are no noticeable dedicated Brawl streams that are anywhere close to VGBootCamp, Clash Tournaments, or even Smash Studios (all of which primarily stream Melee and Project M).
Because of that, Brawl has a very minimal presence on Twitch.
Because of that, the competitive Brawl community can't get the advertising/message out there that they exist.
Because of that, Brawl isn't featured in as many major tournaments anymore (CEO and MLG not having Brawl hurt many top Brawl players).
Because of that, it always appears like the Brawl competitive scene is dying or dead.
Because that their top players can't get sponsors outside of say Clash Tournaments and super small sponsors unless they play other smash games (like what happened to ZeRo).
Because of that, top players don't advertise themselves.
Because of that, the scene becomes largely self-contained.
Because of that, the Brawl competitive scene feels oftentimes all on their own.
Because of that, many Brawl competitive players feel sad about their game and its' competitive future.

It sucks because they have so many fantastic people in their scene, and ultimately, that's what keeps a scene alive as much or more than anything else. It also sucks because quite frankly the bigger Brawl is, the better it is for 64, Melee, Project M, and Smash 4. The talent level is raised at the top level in each game, each community can feed off each other, and quite frankly everything is better for everyone.

Plus if Brawl started growing again, the Smash competitive community could focus on making Smash 64 get more tournaments and it could help develop Smash 3DS and/or Smash WiiU develop into a super popular game, which in turn would make the other smash games more popular in time because some of the new players who play that will play the other games as well.

I basically see Smash competitively as a circle: if we get more people into the circle, the bigger it gets, the better it gets, and the more fun and varied and intense it gets, which is just the way I like it.

I feel like I just described the scene in Finding Nemo where they ride the current with the turtles!!!

 

[Deleted member 245254]

You act like the Melee community is a braindead cult that follows the top players. They're not.
Many top melee players have said they dislike PM, a lot of people are still playing PM, it has a large community playing tournaments. Not as large as melee's, but larger than any of the other entries in the series, and as it's updated and becomes more robust, it has the potential of having a larger competitive following than smash 4 (in the long run, smash 4 will probably be huge when it's first release) and possibly even has the potential to become larger than melee.

If smash 4 does fail competitively, it'll be because it didn't serve what competitive players want, not because they're religiously following top melee player's opinions.



If you disagree so much, how about actually elaborating on his post instead of constructing arguments against his character? All he really did in that post was define what 'technical' was, state that tech skills will be in smash 4 (some certainly will, no doubt) and that learning them will be a part of the game. I don't even see what there is to disagree with.

I already did, it was short and to the point. Arguing the merits of tech skill is not constructive because when people argue for the benefit of it being removed, they are mostly referring to l-cancel and wavedash. Dash dancing is not an AT. These will not return to Smash 4.

Trying to generalize the argument to say all games require tech skill is pointless, it's just stating the obvious and grinding the word semantically down to its foundational meaning for no other purpose than to argue for it's necessary inclusion for a competitive game, which I disagree with. I'm on this board to discuss Smash 4, not the fundamental benefits of tech skill, which according to JohnKnight is impossible to remove anyway, which therein makes the conversation even more pointless.

It's pretty easy to insinuate the character of someone who chooses to argue over something that which has no purpose.

And no I don't act like they're a cult, I put a little disclaimer in there saying that I recognize not all players do that. Do you read my posts? /sarcasm

 

[Johnknight1]

Jason can say some dumb things for sure, but it isn't just because people talk **** for the sake of it, and for that same reason--no one will listen. People listen to what he has to say is because of his experience in smash.

As @ferioku said earlier, many players gave Brawl a chance, and just dug deep. Considering the numerous amounts of players experienced with not only the mechanics of the previous smashes, but also knew the encoded data (which you can clearly see the fruits of the results with the numerous game hacks) went in on the game, and found that the building blocks of the engine were completely stripped, though many were able to draw to that conclusion long ago. There were parts in the game that were clearly targeted to remove competitive viability from the game and added elements to further discourage it. Based on these events, why is bad to be at least somewhat skeptical of the outcome of the final product?

So yes, Jason (Mew2King) does say some things out of spite. But when it comes down to the wire he's a dude who just really loves smash, and experience to boot. So when it comes to believe the word of the inexperienced vs Jason?--I'll take bitter resentment over a display of abstract narcissism aimed to claim the credibility of an experienced player is negligible.

Not everything hides in plain site. Some things are what they are.

M2K's analysis of what was wrong with some Project M players was spot on.

The fact of the matter is some people are only good at very particular things. As I highlighted in an earlier post, I feel that HBox is one of these people, while M2K is obviously an example of someone who is good at a lot of things in a few specific ways that can translate from Smash game to Smash game, and heck, to other fighting games or other platformers as well.

Obviously not everything adapts, but a lot of small stuff that can have a big impact does.

 

[StarLight42]

IT's still being played and hosted so dunno where you are getting this from.

Not at anything big like EVO.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Not at anything big like EVO.

Then you shouldn't be saying it's not competitive if people are still playing it.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

There's a certain amount and a certain kind of technical skill that is required for a game like Smash Bros. regardless, but having overly-complex commands to achieve what you want gives an external chance for error. The controller is merely a link between the player and the game. What you want your character to do, your character does to the best of that character's limitations. Precise inputs make the game about the controls, as opposed to more important things like knowing your character's range and capabilities and those of your opponent, knowing the game environment and how to use it to your advantage, reacting to your current situation and knowing what to do and with what timing, and trying to get into your opponent's head to figure out what their deal is or mess them up. The easier the inputs, the more the technical skill can be based on the timing and placement of the technique (factors internal to the game environment) as opposed to execution of the technique (which is an external factor). The goal is perfect control within the limitations of the character and the game environment. To that end, the goal of the game controller (and by extension, the game's control scheme) is to make itself as unobtrusive as possible to better facilitate the link between the player and the game.

This is my opinion on the matter.

On-topic: If Smash 4 turns out to be good competitively, I might make my start on the competitive scene with this game. It seems conducive to my natural play style in any case, so I might be able to do decently well.

Semi-related funny thing: Back when I first got into Smash, I used to instinctively try to air-dodge out of tumble even in Melee, before I'd ever played or seen Brawl or the Tales series (in which the Guard button is used to recover from a launch hit).

 

[LancerStaff]

Tech skill = being able to perform what you want to perform.

Sorry, but that's not "hollow and worthless", that's how champs are made.

That's a big thing that separates Isai in 64 and Mango in Melee from everyone else.

I mean that making stuff hard to do in a competitive environment is largely pointless. Combos are often difficult because the opponent can influence their trajectory and such, making the timing for a DACUS so tight just causes people to mess up. You should be fighting the opponent/level, not the player character.

Any game that requires a decent APM isn't well designed then? Tech skill isn't stupid in and of itself. It's a necessity many games unless you want to map every theoretical option possible to it's own button.

It's required for many games, but it's definitely out of place in SSB.

Besides if everyone is able to do everything at the same speed and with the same ease, that evens the playing field and makes it "less varied" and thus "less interesting".

Imagine if in basketball everyone in the NBA could shoot a three pointer as well as Steph Curry. That would make the NBA a heck of a lot less interesting, and it would make that specific skill that Steph Curry has less valuable because literally everyone can do it.

Having different levels and aspects of technical skill, strategic skill, character-centric skills, tactical skills, and playstyle skills creates a more interesting and open dynamic of skills and skillsets for players in Smash Bros.

Smash Bros. is a very open and varied game, so having a very open and varied player pool with very varied talents and specialties makes it all the better.

Ah, but now there's much more competition. Anybody can compete now.

Tech skill is inherently a part of Smash. Some people can press A faster than other people. Nothing Sakurai can do will EVER, EVER, EVER change that fact.

Tech skill is in 64, in Melee, in Brawl, and BREAKING NEWS IT IS IN SMASH FOUR WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT!!!

Advanced techniques are in Smash 4 as well. We've already discovered a dozen or so. We're going to find dozens more. Brawl had dozens more advanced techniques and technical things than Melee ever did, but no one ever seems to notice outside of people who are actually "in the know"

Once you understand the totality tech skill and technicality in smash bros and advanced techniques, you are realize it is a core mechanic of smash bros that will never go away as long as the CONTROL remains in the hands of the players holding THE CONTROLLERS!!!

It's a very basic mechanic of smash, and unless Sakurai and co. changes that (aka makes Smash not a video game), it will remain there forever.

If you actually understood Smash as much as you think you did, you would understand this at the core of the subject.

No, you're using big words to say "shut up". Stop acting like Morbid. It makes you look stupid, not smart.

Say what you mean, not some muddled down "brazen fruitless Brazzers" parade of words that you have to repeat twice.

K. They just take out the remotely hard stuff because they want to. The devs care about

It is "technical" in that the goal is to execute something. If you want to attack faster than your opponent, one way of accomplishing this is pressing buttons (which is executing a command) faster.

Usain Bolt outruns his foes by being faster than them, which is the technical goal of the 100m dash.

No, it is also executing a specific command that you intended.

I'm not denying that. I'm just merely stating speed is a part of the technicality of pressing it too.

"Speed of movement" is ultimately what determines who wins races, thus is technical by concept.

Being faster with your command inputs is one of many ways of increasing the likelihood of your victory in smash bros.

Other things that increase your likelihood of winning in smash bros. is being technical/more technical (doing what you want to do), having a superior strategic skills, having superior tactical skills, having a better on the stage game, having a better off the stage game, having a better neutral game, being better on offense, being better on defense, being better with grab-related content, having better combos, being better at reads, being better at timing foes, being better in the air, being better on the ground, being better at punishes, being more unpredictable, playing a better character, playing and understanding the match ups better, having more practice, understanding and knowing stages more, understanding counters more, etc.

All of these will enable a player to win or have a better chance of winning.

"Simple" is subjective. While it may be simple to you, pressing A a specific number of times in a close time window can be hard to achieve. However, in the realm of competitive smash bros, you must be willing to practice hard in order to achieve such a thing.

Pressing A+L/R+down/left on the control stick may not be hard to someone after practicing it a lot, but getting it down certainly is.

Getting the grab commands for chain grabs may not be hard to someone after practicing it a lot, but getting it down certainly is.

If you don't think there won't be such things in Smash 4 (hint: we already found them: that pivoting reverse attack, as well as the unique usages of buffering), you clearly haven't been paying attention.

I never said that. That's not my argument.

My argument is that one way to win is to be more technical than your opponents in that you press buttons faster than your opponent.

One way technically Amazon beat out competitors was having their shipping distributors send, ship, and have products arrive earlier than competitors. The same is true in Smash. Westballz in Melee routinely beats foes in part because of his precise and fast movement. Players try to keep up but they can't, and if they could, they often aren't as precise as he is.

Talking things like Wavedashing out lowers the highest required speed of imputs. And thus, being faster then the opponent doesn't matter after a certain point. In SSB, this point is generally quite low. And it should stay low, because that was the idea behind SSB in the first place: An easy to play brawler. SSB should be easy because SSB should be easy.

 

[Sparklepower]

I already did, it was short and to the point. Arguing the merits of tech skill is not constructive because when people argue for the benefit of it being removed, they are mostly referring to l-cancel and wavedash. Dash dancing is not an AT. These will not return to Smash 4.

Trying to generalize the argument to say all games require tech skill is pointless, it's just stating the obvious and grinding the word semantically down to its foundational meaning for no other purpose than to argue for it's necessary inclusion for a competitive game, which I disagree with. I'm on this board to discuss Smash 4, not the fundamental benefits of tech skill, which according to JohnKnight is impossible to remove anyway, which therein makes the conversation even more pointless.

It's pretty easy to insinuate the character of someone who chooses to argue over something that which has no purpose.

And no I don't act like they're a cult, I put a little disclaimer in there saying that I recognize not all players do that. Do you read my posts? /sarcasm

You are wrong.

I read every word, I just do not agree with you, but luckily for you I don't instantly revert to the "I just have a different opinion than you so that must make me wrong?!" ninny-nanny nonsense.

This was what you said before you stopped actually replying to the content of his posts. All this is saying is 'I disagree.' I don't see how this is any kind of elaborate argument.

Which techniques are and aren't 'advanced' is completely subjective. Smash 4 will definitely have some techniques that are considered 'advanced' by consensus, just like every other smash game does, and every other fighting game beyond that.

I fail to see how a competitive game could be made with no advanced techniques. It could be possible, I don't know. Could you name me a single fighting game that has ever had a decent competitive following without them?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

Easy to play brawler=\= everybody having the same skills. There are a lot of advanced techniques in Smash, and some of those separate the good from the great.

Just because it's easy to pick up doesn't mean there isn't depth to it.

Anyway, please try to stay on topic. Let's not drift onto things unrelated.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Easy to play brawler=\= everybody having the same skills. There are a lot of advanced techniques in Smash, and some of those separate the good from the great.

Just because it's easy to pick up doesn't mean there isn't depth to it.

Anyway, please try to stay on topic. Let's not drift onto things unrelated.

That's precisely why the conversation is meaningless.

Smash 4 will have its own version of tech skill, so why are we discussing the merits of it's existence when it will exist in some form anyway?

It's not that I'm dismissing JohnKnight, it's that it's a discussion that literally leads in circles.

M2K's analysis of what was wrong with some Project M players was spot on.

The fact of the matter is some people are only good at very particular things. As I highlighted in an earlier post, I feel that HBox is one of these people, while M2K is obviously an example of someone who is good at a lot of things in a few specific ways that can translate from Smash game to Smash game, and heck, to other fighting games or other platformers as well.

Obviously not everything adapts, but a lot of small stuff that can have a big impact does.

He is not right. He takes a loss to people who focus tons of time and energy to maximize their performance with their characters, sometimes even within the short frame of time those strategies are viable due to the nature of Project M's changing meta-game, and he blames it on the game.

How does this stuff even get by you? It is the ultimate john, unless of course m2k says it then it's a legit criticism of an entire games player base. Ridiculous.

I'll tell you why M2K does it. I'll tell you why any of those pros do it. It's because they are fantastic at Melee. Project M was built to be like Melee, and yet it's different. Different players put all of their game in to Project M because they love it, meanwhile those pros continue to play Melee mostly. Dedicated & skilled players beat the pros because of said disadvantage, pros take a hit to their superiority complex because they believe that since they are good at Melee, they should automatically be the best at a game marketed originally to be like Melee.

So what do they do? They john. They john like you've never seen in your life. They blame the mechanics, the dev team, the game balance, everything else but themselves because the possibility of them not being the best at a game they don't main is infuriating when it's a game so closely hinged to the main game they play.

Mew2King and Hbox lost when it counted at Project M because they got outplayed. Project M is a game with its own limitations and boundaries. Everyone is capable of pushing them and abiding by them in the same way, so to blame the game and then go ahead and validate his ridiculous statements is so hypocritical in this discussion of tech skill being necessary to differentiate noobs from pros. By your logic, Project M has plenty of tech school by default, therefore M2K's statement of good PM players having no tech skill is utterly false from the get go.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

That's precisely why the conversation is meaningless.

Smash 4 will have its own version of tech skill, so why are we discussing the merits of it's existence when it will exist in some form anyway?

It's not that I'm dismissing JohnKnight, it's that it's a discussion that literally leads in circles.


He is not right. He takes a loss to people who focus tons of time and energy to maximize their performance with their characters, sometimes even within the short frame of time those strategies are viable due to the nature of Project M's changing meta-game, and he blames it on the game.

How does this stuff even get by you? It is the ultimate john, unless of course m2k says it then it's a legit criticism of an entire games player base. Ridiculous.

I'll tell you why M2K does it. I'll tell you why any of those pros do it. It's because they are fantastic at Melee. Project M was built to be like Melee, and yet it's different. Different players put all of their game in to Project M because they love it, meanwhile those pros continue to play Melee mostly. Dedicated & skilled players beat the pros because of said disadvantage, pros take a hit to their superiority complex because they believe that since they are good at Melee, they should automatically be the best at a game marketed originally to be like Melee.

So what do they do? They john. They john like you've never seen in your life. They blame the mechanics, the dev team, the game balance, everything else but themselves because the possibility of them not being the best at a game they don't main is infuriating when it's a game so closely hinged to the main game they play.

Mew2King and Hbox lost when it counted at Project M because they got outplayed. Project M is a game with its own limitations and boundaries. Everyone is capable of pushing them and abiding by them in the same way, so to blame the game and then go ahead and validate his ridiculous statements is so hypocritical in this discussion of tech skill being necessary to differentiate noobs from pros. By your logic, Project M has plenty of tech school by default, therefore M2K's statement of good PM players having no tech skill is utterly false from the get go.

First off, John does make a good point that even if the game is different, at least a few of the former techniques will probably be in the game in some form (except wakedashing and L-Canceling as you said)

Second, however, the 2nd half of this post has absolutely nothing to do with Smash 4. But I understand that's it a reply to something else.

This is it guys. Last warning. Get back on topic, or you guys are getting infractions from me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yeah I'm gonna lock this, it's gone south and I think I'm gonna be harsher on the x vs y stuff if it shows up more.