What if Smash 4 turned out to be a great competitive game?

[JV5Chris]

It's really pretty simple.

The truth of the matter is that Melee enthusiasts actually have nothing to lose. If Smash 4 succeeds, it just does. If it doesn't, they can keep on playing Melee.

While the Melee scene continues to grow, the game today lacks current standards like widescreen and native HD support (non-native resolutions typically result in extra input lag). Never was possible to play online either. It's a 13 year old tittle attached to CRTs and in-person player meetups. There's no new content, patches, or anything that resembles the kind of prolonged support we've come to expect out of lasting multi-player games these days.

It's really short-sighted to suggest the Melee scene has nothing to lose here. If Smash 4 fails to capture even part of that spark for them, it's another 6-8 years wait for the engine to be reworked.

It's really an issue of being cruelly unfair to Smash 4.

The bold critiques exist because many Melee players (and those that appreciate Melee) would prefer Smash 4 to succeed in holding their interests too. As evidence here, not everyone in the smash community is capable of differentiating a less than glowing assessment of the E3 build from someone actually being unreasonable. Even though it's early, this is just too sensitive of a subject for whatever reason.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Anyone who says it's Brawl 2.0 didn't play the demo or is showing their bias right off the bat.

Is it more simular to Brawl than Melee? Yes but was anyone seriously expecting more like Melee?

 

[TeaTwoTime]

In my opinion, long "true" combos are unhealthy for the game. All combos should be escapable if the escape attempt is executed properly (though this shouldn't be too easy, which was often the case in Brawl). "Strings" - combos where you need to predict their DI and follow-up with reactionary play, rather than with a defined set of combo moves - are what I believe combos should look like.

 

[Aninymouse]

No offense but when people say it's Brawl 2.0 I can't really take them seriously.

DACUS is in the game? I'm pretty sure most people confirmed it's not. Dunno about B reversals either.

At the very least, Famitsu confirmed that Captain Falcon can do B reversals. His Falcon Punch is stronger when he does the turn-around version.

 

[LancerStaff]

There's different levels of defensive framework, which I'm trying to detail in this TVTropes YKTTW. Brawl defensive is different from USFIV defensive. (And both are different from Punch Time Explosion defensive.)

Hm, I know a guy who might do a write-up on KIU if you're interested. Not entirely sure where it'd go on the scale, though.

At the very least, Famitsu confirmed that Captain Falcon can do B reversals. His Falcon Punch is stronger when he does the turn-around version.

There's an actual reverse Falcon Punch, yaknow. Turnaround animation and all.

 

[Mensrea]

If the game is by some chance really fun to play, has a deep meta, and is good competitively, I will be more than happy. I will be over the damn moon. I want it to be good so badly, it's just that all signs point to a Brawl rehash.

It doesn't even have to be like Melee, I don't need wave dashing, or L cancelling or any of the other awesome things that Melee had. If it's its own thing, has a high skill ceiling, is offensive, and has some cool things to master, I will embrace it like a long lost child.

It really sucks that it's going to be none of those things tho. I've never wanted a game to be good this badly, but the director says: "no soup for you."

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

In my opinion, long "true" combos are unhealthy for the game by definition. All combos should be escapable if the escape attempt is executed properly (though this shouldn't be too easy, which was often the case in Brawl). "Strings" - combos where you need to predict their DI and follow-up with reactionary play, rather than with a defined set of combo moves - are what I believe combos should look like.

Arguing over semantics can be found here:

Spoiler

Your definition of "string" is pretty much what I'd call a combo anyway. DI is a part of combos and is often one of the main draws of the Smash Bros series (specifically Melee, let's be honest here), as it makes every combo unique, even if certain types of combos are more prevalent than others. To me a string is not in any way a combo. This is what I believe to be a good definition of a true combo:

"For combos to be possible, attacks in a given game must put the enemy in a state where they cannot act (fighting games refer to this as "hitstun"). The state must also be vulnerable, and the attacker must recover from their attack fast enough to deliver another before the state ends." -TVTropes

In this case, attacking, using a special, moving or airdodging would be considered "acting" however applying Directional Influence would not. Your character isn't technically doing anything but rather, is forcing what your opponent does to be a bit different. That's just how I see things anyway.

Good example here from my early days of Roy in PM. The 4 hitter against Marth seems secure enough even when slowed down. Compare that to what you see against Peach. In that clip, Peach gets out of hitstun a whopping 3 separate times (after the first throw, after the Ftilt and after the second throw). This is what I'd call a string. I'm still keeping pressure on the Peach, but she is not in a state where she cannot act. After the Ftilt especially, you can easily see her hovering and trying to hit me with her forward aerial.

I think my question here is... By "true combo" do you mean "guaranteed combo"? Because they are not one and the same. Guaranteed is when even DI/techrolls/whatever aren't a factor, the moves will always connect. These are the combos that you see most in Brawl.

Anyway now with that out of the way, I believe that long combos are pretty questionable, but combos in general are a great thing because they reward landing hits. Pretty simple stuff. As long as players aren't getting put into or close to kill % on a regular basis, I think that's the way to go. From what I've analysed of Smash 4 footage, that seems to be where we're headed thankfully.
--------------------------------------------
Anyway on topic, yes it would be great. I would play it all day erryday. I would have many more Youtube videos as I would have so much footage potential thanks to the many online features. For Glory, For Taunts Fun, With Friends, whatever. I would make many cheesy oneliners every time I play Robin (or Wolf if he makes it in). It would be absolute bliss.

I do wonder what will happen to PM if Smash 4 turned out to be a competitive success however. I know some people think it'll stay the same, but my insecurities mind tells me that it'll probably die out a bit in favour of Smash 4, whilst Melee still remains the kingpin. Who knows though?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Shiek's combo potential in Smash 4 is pretty ridiculous, for what she can do with her fast moves she has a not of moves that can link up together.

Idk what is garanteed or not from what we have seen but again, this seems to give off the feeling characters are purposely made so some can play like this while others don't.

 

[Aninymouse]

There's an actual reverse Falcon Punch, yaknow. Turnaround animation and all.

I thought it was the same thing, just that Falcon has a special version?

I'm pretty sure I remember Mega Man using a B reversal in an early video...

 

[TeaTwoTime]

I think my question here is... By "true combo" do you mean "guaranteed combo"? Because they are not one and the same. Guaranteed is when even DI/techrolls/whatever aren't a factor, the moves will always connect. These are the combos that you see most in Brawl.

Well, it would be entirely fair to say that I'm no expert on term definitions and was basing my post off of my interpretation of how the terms have been used by others around here. In general, I interpreted "true" combo to mean one that is inescapable by the character being attacked - that is, the combo is guaranteed assuming that the attacker does not stuff up their inputs - and "string" to mean a series of attacks which can be escaped from by the character being attacked if they DI well and accurately predict the movements of the attacker. I don't think the former is an issue for the initial 2-3 hits of a combo, but for longer combos it seems unhealthy and lacking counterplay to me. The latter better fits my perception of healthy gameplay, where the offensive player is rewarded for skillful aggression but where the player being attacked also has sufficient counterplay available to them. I'm not a competitive Smash player; this is just my two cents regarding what sounds conducive to a more enjoyable and less frustrating game.

 

[Reila]

Does it matter? Some people will complain about the game even if it is a "great competitive game". As long as I enjoy the game, I don't care if it is considered a good competitive game or not. I enjoying the hell out of Brawl and still do, after all, even with all the negativity the vocal minority have towards the game.

 

[Tristan_win]

Its

Its in the thread. You tested on a CPU. You went wrong there, no good human DI and SDI (because you can SDI the up smash, its just that no one practices SDI so stale ftilt to up smash seems free). Also, every character has combos from moves that have been used 5-6 times earlier lol. Marth's dtilt into dtilt true combos if its stale. Lucario's fair into nair true combos once fair is stale enough.

...So let me get this straight, if you can smash DI out of a combo of constant hitstun then it isn't a combo? You do realize if your perfect with smash DI can you travel half the distance of FD on certain attacks right? Using this logic Melee doesn't have any combo's either. Also this data wasn't tested just on cpu's but on smart competitive player which I've personally seen work constantly, unless you personally have some absolute godly DI your not going to DI or SDI out of a single close range Ftilt into usmash combo if it's decay correctly.

' Also, every character has combos from moves that have been used 5-6 times earlier'

Does that mean I'm right and that Sheik does have more combo's? Just because other characters can also take advantage of the decay system does not mean Sheik method become any less valid. There is one major difference though, unlike Marth Dtilt and Lucario fair Sheik has the opportunity to always decay Ftilt so much due to Ftilt lock. Because of the Ftilt lock it's not unreasonable to have a heavily decayed Ftilt with your opponent in the 90-100% if you succeeded to get that tilt lock around 30%.
There's one more point I want to make, while the charts are meant to show what Sheik could potentiality combo into it doesn't guarantee anything. Realistically speaking Sheik is never going to combo Ftilt into fsmash or better yet Ftilt into the 2nd part of her usmash. The reason those are listed though is because of the feedback I got of people not knowing what they could do with something like 13 frame advantage or 5 frame advantage. By listing an attack especially a slow attack they could come to the realization that faster moves could also work. This doesn't discredit my earlier statement though because everything up to tipper usmash can and will combo from ftilt.

 

[Ryuutakeshi]

I think it would be awesome and I'd be happy for you. I know Brawl disappointed some of you but now you have a shiny new smash game that meets all your needs. Have fun!

 

[ferioku]

It's no use, the haters will keep rambling on about more reasons to hate this game, even if L canceling and Wave dashing was added, it wouldn't satisfy them.

 

[The Slayer]

It's no use, the haters will keep rambling on about more reasons to hate this game, even if L canceling and Wave dashing was added, it wouldn't satisfy them.

Even though most of the "haters" in this topic just want the game to be competitively viable, regardless of ATs of previous games or not. Even then, some of the said "haters" don't mind playing the game for fun even if it's not happening. You really like to be black and white with arguments, don't you? Heck, what if some of these "haters" are Brawl players?

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

I don't think there's anybody who wants this game to fail competitively. Even if this game does fail on the competitive side, many people will still try to make it work. If this turning out "good" (as in balanced competitively, strategically deep, and entertaining to watch), then that's great. The problems that come with Smash 4 being good are good problems to have.

 

[STiCKYBULL3TZ]

We haven't seen a whole lot from this game when it comes to mechanics and competitive gameplay but I feel we've seen enough to be on the optimistic side. And if it's not competitively "viable" there will still be a scene for competitive Smash 4. Brawl was not seen as a good enough game but there's still a scene for it. Whether it's viable or not there will still be competition for it. That's good enough for me

 

[Aninymouse]

On the stale moves issue, I think it's good to point out that, so far, the reports seem to be that stale moves work slightly different than before. Moves do not gradually grow stale, rather, they are fresh OR stale. This is a much more intuitive system and should aid attackers when setting themselves up for their best combos or approaches.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

@ victinivcreate1 : Buffering actually makes the inputs considerably LESS tight. Instead of having to have frame-perfect timing (as in, a 1- to 2-frame input window), you have a 10-11 frame input window. For example, if Brawl had wavedashing, the command would be a fair bit easier in Brawl than in Melee. Rather than hitting jump, waiting a precise 3 frames and hitting Down+R, you could simply hit Down+R immediately after you hit jump (a 4-frame window without any timing considerations, just input it as fast as you can).

Brawl, as far as fighting games go, has very simple, very easy inputs that are significantly less technical than Melee. This was part of Sakurai's original vision of Smash, that it be outside the genre of "fighting game" due to lacking the extreme technical precision and skill barrier that the fighting genre so often has. It's supposed to test mental skill, not your ability to press buttons quick.

And of course B-reversals would be in. It's a useful, entirely deliberate mechanic that has no reason to be removed.

 

[victinivcreate1]

@ victinivcreate1 : Buffering actually makes the inputs considerably LESS tight. Instead of having to have frame-perfect timing (as in, a 1- to 2-frame input window), you have a 10-11 frame input window. For example, if Brawl had wavedashing, the command would be a fair bit easier in Brawl than in Melee. Rather than hitting jump, waiting a precise 3 frames and hitting Down+R, you could simply hit Down+R immediately after you hit jump (a 4-frame window without any timing considerations, just input it as fast as you can).

Brawl, as far as fighting games go, has very simple, very easy inputs that are significantly less technical than Melee. This was part of Sakurai's original vision of Smash, that it be outside the genre of "fighting game" due to lacking the extreme technical precision and skill barrier that the fighting genre so often has. It's supposed to test mental skill, not your ability to press buttons quick.

And of course B-reversals would be in. It's a useful, entirely deliberate mechanic that has no reason to be removed.

But B Reversals are very tight. Its 4 frames between inputting the special and tapping the opposite direction. Thats pretty tight. Also, buffering is not as easy as you think it is. You're inputting attacks during a very specific set of lag frames of your previous move. It may be easier to do with less laggy moves butwith laggier/longer duration moves? Nope. Fairly difficult.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Buffering was actually Brawl's best contribution if you ask me, and I'm pretty anti-Brawl. It raises the skill barrier a bit for entering players without affecting the experience for experienced players.

It's no use, the haters will keep rambling on about more reasons to hate this game, even if L canceling and Wave dashing was added, it wouldn't satisfy them.

Proof of that; their opinion of Project M, which was specifically made for them. I immediately lost all respect for Hungrybox and Mew2King when I saw their comments on it.

 

[LancerStaff]

I thought it was the same thing, just that Falcon has a special version?

I'm pretty sure I remember Mega Man using a B reversal in an early video...

Not sure about Megaman, but Captain Falcon can do reverse-reverse Falcon Punches in Brawl.

But B Reversals are very tight. Its 4 frames between inputting the special and tapping the opposite direction. Thats pretty tight. Also, buffering is not as easy as you think it is. You're inputting attacks during a very specific set of lag frames of your previous move. It may be easier to do with less laggy moves butwith laggier/longer duration moves? Nope. Fairly difficult.

Not entirely what point you're making...
You're attempting to devalue buffering, which was basically the only thing that made DACUSing viable, and without it, it would be even harder to do. You're also comparing B-reversals to Wavedashing, even when the later is much more difficult. Tapping a direction and then pressing B is obviously much easier then jumping, airdodging at a precise angle at a much more precise time, and then performing an attack out of it.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Not sure about Megaman, but Captain Falcon can do reverse-reverse Falcon Punches in Brawl.



Not entirely what point you're making...
You're attempting to devalue buffering, which was basically the only thing that made DACUSing viable, and without it, it would be even harder to do. You're also comparing B-reversals to Wavedashing, even when the later is much more difficult. Tapping a direction and then pressing B is obviously much easier then jumping, airdodging at a precise angle at a much more precise time, and then performing an attack out of it.

Nah, its about the same timing. Just that you refuse to push buttons and complain on why you're not good. In fact the double B reversal has about the same amount of inputs as a wavedash, even more if you're using a character with a chargeable B Move

 

[Renji64]

I really hope it does turn out to be a great competitive game. It doesn't seem like it atm smash only seems focused on the beginners experince and keep lowering the skill cieling i like having a goal to work towards and something to improve on. I don't wanna feel like i'm playing smash 4 dummies like the last entry.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

But B Reversals are very tight. Its 4 frames between inputting the special and tapping the opposite direction. Thats pretty tight. Also, buffering is not as easy as you think it is. You're inputting attacks during a very specific set of lag frames of your previous move. It may be easier to do with less laggy moves butwith laggier/longer duration moves? Nope. Fairly difficult.

Yes, it's tight and has the same number of inputs. But it's not as tight as a wavedash or just about any other Melee cancel or advanced technique, since those tend to have a 1-frame activation window, wavedash especially. And who knows? Maybe they've increased the ease of execution for B-reversals in Smash 4. That would be really nice, actually.

As for buffering a move out of a laggy move? That's really easy to get roughly correct as long as you're not buffering a chargeable or cancellable special move or a Smash Attack charge. Just spam the command until it goes through. Simple as that. Brawl's buffer also makes what few cancels there are in the game much easier to pull off, because you have a 10-frame window of opportunity where you can input the next move and have it execute on the first available cancel frame, instead of having to input the command on that exact frame.

As long as hitlag in Smash 4 is never equal to or greater than 10 frames, or if Smash 4 doesn't count hitlag frames in the buffer window (that is, if you use a 26-frame attack with a hitbox on frame 20, you can input a buffered command after or on frame 17 even if the attack connects and adds another 5 frames of hitlag), buffering will be pretty darn easy to do. In fact, I think that idea of having the buffer "pause" during hitlag is a pretty good one, since it allows players with weaker reaction time to pull off cancels and buffer combos using primarily muscle memory.

 

[pizzapie7]

Does it matter? Some people will complain about the game even if it is a "great competitive game". As long as I enjoy the game, I don't care if it is considered a good competitive game or not. I enjoying the hell out of Brawl and still do, after all, even with all the negativity the vocal minority have towards the game.

Uhh yes it does matter because the game would be more enjoyable that way? Congrats on having a different opinion on what makes a game enjoyable, but to say this doesn't matter because you don't care is silly. It'd be like me going into a thread about some irrelevant Nintendo character I've never heard of and asking Does it matter?

I don't get these people some times.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really hope it does turn out to be a great competitive game. It doesn't seem like it atm smash only seems focused on the beginners experince and keep lowering the skill cieling i like having a goal to work towards and something to improve on. I don't wanna feel like i'm playing smash 4 dummies like the last entry.

Being fair, that's mostly the goal with Smash for the skill floor.

 

[StarLight42]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLBhITCRBtY

Ruined my hopes and dreams. Hopefully sakurai realizes the error of his ways. I'm sick of the smash community being split in two, it's stupid. We need a game that everybody can enjoy.

 

[Renji64]

Being fair, that's mostly the goal with Smash for the skill floor.

Smash is suppose to be easier to learn hard to master there was nothing hard or worth mastering last go around since it was for beginners only.

 

[ferioku]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLBhITCRBtY

Ruined my hopes and dreams. Hopefully sakurai realizes the error of his ways. I'm sick of the smash community being split in two, it's stupid. We need a game that everybody can enjoy.

I won't even lie to mysf. I do want the game to improve from the demo. Just annoying when people say the game is sure to suck. Sakurai does indeed need to listen to his fans because there are some things that need changing. He knows that the competitive community deserves better... it doesn't make it any better when the casusls insist that the game needs to be like brawl. I even saw a post saying that competitive players don't deserve to play, which down right pisses me off. I hope sakurai doesn't make the same mistake because he will lose out in a lot of sales...

 

[StarLight42]

I won't even lie to mysf. I do want the game to improve from the demo. Just annoying when people say the game is sure to suck. Sakurai does indeed need to listen to his fans because there are some things that need changing. He knows that the competitive community deserves better... it doesn't make it any better when the casusls insist that the game needs to be like brawl. I even saw a post saying that competitive players don't deserve to play, which down right pisses me off. I hope sakurai doesn't make the same mistake because he will lose out in a lot of sales...

Yeah the casuals are getting a bit too out of hand with the flaming and stuff like that....especially at GameFAQS, oh it's absolutely terrible.

I just hope the final game fixes the problems the Demo had. Nintendo wants this to be a competitive game, or else they wouldn't have put on the invitational. If Smash 4 fails as a competitive game, we might not see another invitational, and that's just depressing.

 

[Hydde]

Is sad that NO ONE complained in the melee days.... but now smashboards is a mess thans to brawl and now SSB4

 

[Hydde]

Yeah the casuals are getting a bit too out of hand with the flaming and stuff like that....especially at GameFAQS, oh it's absolutely terrible.

I just hope the final game fixes the problems the Demo had. Nintendo wants this to be a competitive game, or else they wouldn't have put on the invitational. If Smash 4 fails as a competitive game, we might not see another invitational, and that's just depressing.

The invitational doesnt mean anything. In fact, maybe Nintendo wants it tobe competitive and cerate an Esport out of it... but Sakuraii´s hate for how this community twisted his franchise into n streetfighter is too strong.

Even if nintendo triedt to twist his hand...he would stand up prevent this new game from turning into anythnig near competitive.

At most.. im pretty sure he will tell Nintendo to *** up and play the game as it is..and if they want to try to make it competitive then yeah, do it... but he will NOT BEND OVER and create something flashy like melee..just because Nintend wants to force him.

He will pretty much resign if Nintendo does that. H ewill ask themt o find another producer that wil be more inline with their views of smash brothers

 

[Yakko93]

Then rejoice

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Smash is suppose to be easier to learn hard to master there was nothing hard or worth mastering last go around since it was for beginners only.

Some techs in brawl are actually kind of hard. Melee is still harder overall though, though for comp play I think it's skill floor is higher than needed.

PM fixed this, though more so with a better training mode.

 

[Jester Kirby]

If Smash 4 turns out to be a bust, we will still have Amiibo only side tournaments to look forward too.....

In all seriousness though, it's looking pretty promising, what with Sakurai actually referring to the competitive scene as something that exists for a change.

 

[Champ Gold]

I think it will have the usual fighting game competitive life but won't last long unless it's supported like say SF4, Marvel 3 or even Melee.

I'll give it 3 lasting years and it will probably last longer than Brawl ever did

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Uhh yes it does matter because the game would be more enjoyable that way? Congrats on having a different opinion on what makes a game enjoyable, but to say this doesn't matter because you don't care is silly. It'd be like me going into a thread about some irrelevant Nintendo character I've never heard of and asking Does it matter?

I don't get these people some times.

On the same token, just because it matters to you doesn't mean it actually matters. War matters. Sustenance matters. The competitive success of Smash 4, more or less, does not. Need I remind you (again) that plenty of people like Brawl more than Melee, despite the fact it's not as competitive as Melee in the scene.

I see you flogging this "people have a different opinion than you" nonsense a lot lately as if people don't already know that. Just because you have an opinion doesn't mean you're allowed to bug the hell out of people with it. Just keep it to yourself if you're going to annoy a large chunk of people.

I don't walk in to churches on Sunday morning talking about how God isn't real and everyone there is just wasting their time just because I have an opinion, which is more or less the equivalent of coming on to Smashboards and saying the next Smash game is going to suck.

 

[raymundoTheGod]

I think any game can be competitive. I just hope it has a competitive scene. I'm growing tired of Melee being the the only "competitive" game because it's crazy. It doesn't make sense that Brawl isn't "competitive" and that it "sucks" because it isn't Melee basically. It has its own playstyle and should be respected. As should every game.

 

[Mensrea]

I think any game can be competitive. I just hope it has a competitive scene. I'm growing tired of Melee being the the only "competitive" game because it's crazy. It doesn't make sense that Brawl isn't "competitive" and that it "sucks" because it isn't Melee basically. It has its own playstyle and should be respected. As should every game.

Sure Brawl is competitive, but it's not really fun to watch or play. All anyone really wants is a game that has a high skill ceiling, and is fun to watch and play. Brawl has none of this. Sure for items on FFA it may be fine, but for anything more , it's a steaming pile. No one needs to "respect" it's play style. If a game is not fun, you don't have to hold it in some high regard.