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What happened to the key?

CoeusFreeze

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
59
Maybe this is just me, but I found G&W's key to be one of his major assets in many matchups in Brawl. Why was it nerfed so badly in project M is a mystery to me. Without it, rushdown is very difficult in a lot of matchups. Was it really broken? It was very punishable. Why was is slowed down so much in pm?
 

CoeusFreeze

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
59
Not really. In Brawl, they key functioned as sort of dive kick, dropping at high speeds and tossing the foe up when they messed up. In PM, it can't close vertical distance nearly as fast and thus inapplicable for the rushdown that made GnW such a threat in brawl. Compare the two and you will notice a substantial difference.
 

dettadeus

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2010
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1,954
Location
drowning in pixels
since when was g&w a rushdown character in brawl

he had like no good approach moves in the first place

unless you literally meant "rushdown" as in rushing downwards, in which case it kinda makes sense?
 

CoeusFreeze

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
59
How else would describe GnW? He's a light but agile character who gets most of his damage by constantly being in the opponent's face. That constitutes as rushdown in my book.

I'm sure that for a lot of people who used high-level GnW tactics in brawl, the key was the go-to punishing tool and combo starter, functioning like a SF dive kick in many ways. Without it, GnW has no clear way to mount an offensive, effectively leaving him up the creek without a paddle in many matchups.

The key was a big part of why I was drawn to GnW, as it allowed me a fun and very useful pressure tool in a game where such moves are rather lacking.
 

geno

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
Messages
111
Location
Charleston, SC
Although I do kinda miss the fast drop key from Brawl at times, I think this current one fits in PM better. Works better for comboing and whatnot. PM G&W has all kinds of nifty toys in his arsenal, keep playing around with him and I think you'll end up loving the new key. Tink on the other hand, I still very much miss his death spike of doom... Still never got better than a 50/50 kill rate with that, but it was worth it every time.
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
Coeus, you have a completely incorrect idea of not only how G&W operates in Brawl, but also how competitive Brawl works as a whole.

First of all, there are no dive kicks in Smash. The Smash engine doesn't allow for overheads or crossups or block stun. The Smash engine doesn't limit a character's jump to a pre-defined arc. The positional advantage dive kicks give in Capcom fighters simply doesn't translate into this game. Diving moves in Smash are no different than regular ones except they force the user to fast fall. This means that it actually LIMITS the potential of a move because the option to float a move in a spot is gone.

Secondly, G&W in competitive Brawl is completely different than the character you described. No character has combo's in Brawl. Any string of damage you get comes from obtaining positional advantage over your opponent. G&W was initially a top tier character in that metagame simply because he has huge disjointed hitboxes on his fishbowl nair and turtle bair control a huge amount of space around him. Those two moves are still the heart of G&W's metagame today and they make him a powerful ZONEING character. The reason why he absolutely cannot be played as a rushdown is because he has basically no fast moves and he struggles to stay safe if his opponent shields his attack. In Brawl there is no such thing as offence, and G&W is no exception.

As for the merits of G&W getting his diving dair back in P:M there are very few. Remember that before G&W dives he actually has an animation where he pulls the key above his head. During this animation he actually floats in the air, which delays him being able to land and L Cancel thus making it ineffective for shield pressure. Outside of that, I've already mentioned that manually fast falling the dair results in a very similar effect, so what it could add would be very limited. The only way I can see G&W's Brawl-style diving dair adding anything to his Project:M iteration would be to completely remove the windup and make it actually dive immediately after the startup, but I don't think that's really in the cards for any future implementation. Though it would be fun to see in action just once.
 

CoeusFreeze

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 18, 2013
Messages
59
I understand now. Thank you all for your help. The reason I operate on that sort of logic is because I entered competitive fighting games from the street fighter series and I am hardwired to play smash in a similar manner (I have gradually been trying to get over this issue). Maybe GnW really wasn't the character I envisioned him as and I've been playing him all wrong. I will do my best to accomodate these ideas into my gameplay.
 

Yung Mei

Where all da hot anime moms at
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
5,341
Why was it nerfed so badly in project M is a mystery to me


ok but seriously though, if anything, it was made WAAYYY better, you just haven't learned to use it well yet

i mean serious, dAir to usmash, what else could you ask for?

cant forget my signature, uair upB dair combo thats like 2 million percent right there
 

Oracle

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 15, 2008
Messages
3,471
Location
Dallas, TX
According to dakpo brawl dair has insane priority and can beat like anything out. Just food for thought
 

Metmetm3t

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 10, 2009
Messages
1,124
Location
Sunny Mobile, AL
the hitbox is the same as it was in Brawl. It still just barely loses to tink's UAir. It did lose the ability to poke characters standing under platforms, but that's because the platforms are higher.
 

UltiMario

Out of Obscurity
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According to dakpo brawl dair has insane priority and can beat like anything out. Just food for thought
It's even like this in Melee. Maybe Brawl's is even better but it's priority is really good in Melee too.
 

DMG

Smash Legend
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Feb 12, 2006
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18,958
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Waco
Slippi.gg
DMG#931
Brawl Dair was not that crazy. You could reliably trade with Wario's Uair, and that's a guy literally using his hands lol. What made it hard to punish or contest was that you could slow fall it randomly at any time basically, which changed the timing and spacing required by the other person
 
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