What does it take to be banned?

[Johnknight1]

I lol'd

I suppose older games tend to have less relevance in terms of understanding/studying the metagame. Oh well, what a shame.

Yeah Isai is too broken. He's lost what, 1 tournament in the past 12 years=??? (he lost that tournament all because of camping!)

He's also lost maybe a dozen or so documented battles out of thousands, lol!

Nah Smash 64's fan base is a lot more tight knit, the average "competitive" player is smarter than the average "competitive" Melee or Brawl player, and there's a lot less to argue about. C'mon they have like 3-5 tournament playable stages (if you don't want mad camping), less characters, and nearly everyone has the same moves. That and they're much older, wiser, and a lot less "zOMG! DIS NEEDS TAH DIEEE OR EEEEYYYYEEE QUITTTT!!!" kinda players.

Seriously I've seen so many All is Brawl blogs on "I'm quitting unless 'X' changes in Brawl." I think everyone is sick of it, especially since it makes other people want to quit because it gets so annoying.

Back to Smash 64, I don't get why they don't have the Metal Mario stage or Battle as a viable stage for online tournaments. Metal Mario would be awesome to play on in a tournament, and of course Battlefield would make an excellent neutral stage like in Melee and Brawl. Does anyone have an answer, like the stage having glitches=???

 

[Claire Diviner]

Yeah Isai is too broken. He's lost what, 1 tournament in the past 12 years=??? (he lost that tournament all because of camping!)

He's also lost maybe a dozen or so documented battles out of thousands, lol!

Nah Smash 64's fan base is a lot more tight knit, the average "competitive" player is smarter than the average "competitive" Melee or Brawl player, and there's a lot less to argue about. C'mon they have like 3-5 tournament playable stages (if you don't want mad camping), less characters, and nearly everyone has the same moves. That and they're much older, wiser, and a lot less "zOMG! DIS NEEDS TAH DIEEE OR EEEEYYYYEEE QUITTTT!!!" kinda players.

Seriously I've seen so many All is Brawl blogs on "I'm quitting unless 'X' changes in Brawl." I think everyone is sick of it, especially since it makes other people want to quit because it gets so annoying.

Back to Smash 64, I don't get why they don't have the Metal Mario stage or Battle as a viable stage for online tournaments. Metal Mario would be awesome to play on in a tournament, and of course Battlefield would make an excellent neutral stage like in Melee and Brawl. Does anyone have an answer, like the stage having glitches=???

You're most likely right about all of that.

As for the stages in question, I think the reason they're not viable is because they're originally unplayable unless you hack the game. So let's say one would have a Smash 64 tourney, but using an actual N64 and everything, with no Gameshark, then it would be impossible to select Metal Cave, or Battlefield, or Final Destination. Even though they'd be great stages, the fact they're not meant to be played in multiplayer probably contributes to them not being tournament viable. Just my guess.

 

[Varist]

Maybe it's because they're more involved with the issue and are sensitive and upset over the ban, but like every Brawl player who's poked into this thread has been hella belligerent.

And people don't realize that it doesn't matter whether or not M2K was ultimately after the money. He put, literally, thousands (maybe almost ten?) of hours into perfecting his Meta Knight. Then it gets banned and he's facing the possibility of only getting to use it in friendlies or MMs or crap tournies.

OBVIOUSLY he's pissed, and he's being singled out and oppressed by preh much everyone. Refute that Spalt. The URC is tyrannically fragmenting a game they shouldn't be allowed to play. Just because they're kicking it off by destroying a "minority" doesn't mean it's any more justifiable.

also this thread sucks now. the betas make me sick

 

[Johnknight1]

Maybe it's because they're more involved with the issue and are sensitive and upset over the ban, but like every Brawl player who's poked into this thread has been hella belligerent.

And people don't realize that it doesn't matter whether or not M2K was ultimately after the money. He put, literally, thousands (maybe almost ten?) of hours into perfecting his Meta Knight. Then it gets banned and he's facing the possibility of only getting to use it in friendlies or MMs or crap tournies.

OBVIOUSLY he's pissed, and he's being singled out and oppressed by preh much everyone. Refute that Spalt. The URC is tyrannically fragmenting a game they shouldn't be allowed to play. Just because they're kicking it off by destroying a "minority" doesn't mean it's any more justifiable.

also this thread sucks now. the betas make me sick

Pretty much. M2K puts more into Melee or Brawl than anyone, especially hours. I'm not a huge fan of really any smasher (other than Azen at his prime), but you gotta respect that effort. Hard work = deserving to win in my opinion.

On top of that, much of the Meta Knight ban is because M2K is so good with him. A lot of players can somewhat successfully copy M2K's style, albeit a very gay and campy version of his style and not nearly as good, and make it in the money at tournaments. If that didn't happen as much as it did, this Meta Knight ban issue wouldn't happen. If Fox was as gay and campy in Melee early on and someone like M2K came along, we would face similar issues probably.

 

[ShroudedOne]

*sigh*

Never mind, Max. I agree.

In any case, I believe that in order for something to warrant being banned, the strategies/tactics employed must not have feasible counters. For example, if it were 100% impossible to DI uthrow > rest, and it worked on every character in the cast, that would warrant Jigglypuff being banned, because you couldn't just choose another character and evade it, nor could you DI the throw.

 

[Kal]

That wouldn't make it ban-worthy, ShroudedOne. A guaranteed combo, even a great one, is not immediately ban-worthy. It's a much more complex issue than that.

 

[Sunnysunny]

I do feel bad for M2K.

I blame the BBR for not banning the bat sooner and instead waiting 3 years, people figuring him out and becoming good as him, then snatching him away. People used him despite this because they were aloud to.

All in all, are brawl overlords are ********.


Also I forgot to answer the main topic of this thread. Hurp.
I'd saaaay the only reason a character should be ban worthy is if they're so that playing any other character would be pointless.

Yall ever hear of Ivan ooze? =p

 

[ShroudedOne]

You think so? Hmmm. What if it were incredibly easy to get grabs with Jigglypuff? I mean, if something needs to break the game to be banned, and this breaks the game, why wouldn't it be banned?

Or would Jigglypuff have to be so incredibly good that fighting her was completely pointless? Because it isn't so in the scenario I posted...

Or should it be a technique that would make skill irrelevant, in order to be banned in a competitive setting?

 

[Spelt]

meta knight doesn't have any counters.
I feel like i'm teaching pre-school here.

You think so? Hmmm. What if it were incredibly easy to get grabs with Jigglypuff? I mean, if something needs to break the game to be banned, and this breaks the game, why wouldn't it be banned?

Or would Jigglypuff have to be so incredibly good that fighting her was completely pointless? Because it isn't so in the scenario I posted...

Or should it be a technique that would make skill irrelevant, in order to be banned in a competitive setting?

After reading this post I can safely say now I know what it's like to watch inception backwards.

 

[Pi]

dang and i was just considering picking MK up to start winning tournaments
i mean, he's broken & ban worthy right? should be easy

 

[ShroudedOne]

Well...I said that the strategy wouldn't have any counters...if MK doesn't have any counters (I don't really play that game, so whatever), then by the criteria I suggested, he would warrant being banned. I don't see what where the preschooler comment comes in...

 

[Spelt]

Planking also doesn't have any counters.

I mean, yeah.
You can SDI out of shield and hit him with an aerial but for the majority of the cast the best you can hope for is a clash, and some character's outright kill themselves for it.
Blah blah blah I would go into detail but it would take quite awhile to go through all the possible outcomes, so i'll just say that there's realistically no way to reliably stop an MK from planking if their doing it smartly and know what to watch out for.

 

[Kal]

You think so? Hmmm. What if it were incredibly easy to get grabs with Jigglypuff? I mean, if something needs to break the game to be banned, and this breaks the game, why wouldn't it be banned?

Or would Jigglypuff have to be so incredibly good that fighting her was completely pointless? Because it isn't so in the scenario I posted...

Basically this last part. Yeah, a brutally good combo is indicative of a character being good, but this is no indication of him being broken. You have to consider it in the grand-scheme of the entire game.

If, for example, Jigglypuff has far too easy a time getting grabs, and grabs mean certain death, then that might mean she's broken. But you'd still need to consider it in the bigger picture.

Or should it be a technique that would make skill irrelevant, in order to be banned in a competitive setting?

No, there can be skill involved in broken techniques. No one would deny that using Akuma in ST takes skill. The issue is that Akuma "breaks" the game in a different sense: the game would devolve into nothing but Akuma vs. Akuma.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

Looks like topic's getting back on track heh.
So look, Brawl's just not the greatest game competitively, wasn't intended to be..

So anything we can do as a community to make it better, even if it means taking the seemingly drastic measure of banning a character, then we have it in our power to do so. (It isn't a drastic measure though and shouldn't come as a surprise, its been a long time coming and thoroughly discussed, and flamed about heh)

We don't have to follow any preconceived notions of staying true to the original game, playing to win only under a fixed ruleset as if its divine right, staying true to the supposed proper competitive mental mindset i.e. avoiding scrubbiness, or anything else. As long as there's a majority will and agreement with the proper thought and discussion having been put into it amongst the competitive community, there's a way. All we can do as try to be as fair as possible to the players themselves so that skill wins out.

The URC took a bit of a hard stance, but that was like the only way they could do it to really make the change after years of this standstill, debate, hate, etc all while the game is aging and players are leaving.

And MK is a legitimate problem. Btw MK dittos are quite common, especially when one doesn't want to fight an automatically disadvantaged mu.

 

[Claire Diviner]

Yall ever hear of Ivan ooze? =p

I've actually mentioned Ivan Ooze in an earlier post. For those curious, here's a good example of Ivan Oooze, and why he's broken and easily ban-worthy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-g4TqMFemY

Also, for the sake of showing a broken character, here's Karai, from "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Tournament Fighter":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDGxChmOnYY

 

[Johnknight1]

Well...I said that the strategy wouldn't have any counters...if MK doesn't have any counters (I don't really play that game, so whatever), then by the criteria I suggested, he would warrant being banned. I don't see what where the preschooler comment comes in...

Some argue that Diddy Kong, Falco, and Pikachu are light counters for Meta Knight, but the general consensus is that the match up is even. Even if Meta Knight doesn't have any counters, neither does Fox or Falco in Melee (according to the official match up list) or Pikachu in Smash 64. Heck, Pikachu in Smash 64's only "even" match up is with Kirby according to the match up list... >.>

Although Meta Knight has only 3 even match ups out of 38 (excluding himself), which is actually a lower percentage of even match ups than Pikachu's even match ups (1 out of 11).

Also lol at Ivan Ooze. I remember that (awful movie), and DAMNNNNN he was broken.

I remember there was some Guilty Gear character that was broken, and in the next release in order to balance her out, they made her trip randomly!

If only that happened to Meta Knight... (and Sheik because Sheik is gay) :oneye:

 

[the_CAM_factor]

i dont think we melee players have an accurate match up list... at all. when was the last time it was updated?

 

[Claire Diviner]

i dont think we melee players have an accurate match up list... at all. when was the last time it was updated?

Isn't there a thread somewhere detailing when a respective MU chart has been updated?

 

[Kal]

Looks like topic's getting back on track heh.
So look, Brawl's just not the greatest game competitively, wasn't intended to be..

So anything we can do as a community to make it better, even if it means taking the seemingly drastic measure of banning a character, then we have it in our power to do so. (It isn't a drastic measure though and shouldn't come as a surprise, its been a long time coming and thoroughly discussed, and flamed about heh)

But you haven't objectively proven anything is ****ing better, Josh. That's the god damn point! All of this, every claim you've made towards improving the game, is subjective. All you really have is 75% of players saying "we don't like Meta Knight," so they ban him. Stop acting like you're choosing between "good Brawl" and "better Brawl." You're not.

We don't have to follow any preconceived notions of staying true to the original game, playing to win only under a fixed ruleset as if its divine right, staying true to the supposed proper competitive mental mindset i.e. avoiding scrubbiness, or anything else. As long as there's a majority will and agreement with the proper thought and discussion having been put into it amongst the competitive community, there's a way. All we can do as try to be as fair as possible to the players themselves so that skill wins out.

Oh, ok. So if the majority gets together, decides it hates Yoshi for no reason whatsoever, and tries to ban it, you're ok with that? Or do you think that you can take the notion of "majority rules" too far? If the former: we're done. I don't understand how anyone can thinks that's fair. If the latter: concede then that the ban for MK could very well fall under taking the notion too far.

The URC took a bit of a hard stance, but that was like the only way they could do it to really make the change after years of this standstill, debate, hate, etc all while the game is aging and players are leaving.

You think players will come back due to no MK? ****, man, you're naïve. The players who leave Brawl because they don't like Meta Knight are scrubs. They will, I assure you, find a new reason to quit. "Man, **** Snake with his janky *** grenades and his janky *** mines and his 47% damage nair."

In other words, this MK ban will not, I absolutely promise you, breathe life into your game. Most likely, it will just get MK players to quit.

And MK is a legitimate problem. Btw MK dittos are quite common, especially when one doesn't want to fight an automatically disadvantaged mu.

Seriously, you do this missing the point thing a lot.

 

[Johnknight1]

Isn't there a thread somewhere detailing when a respective MU chart has been updated?

Really? I was just using the official Smash Boards one. And yes, it definitely seems outdated. Heck, even the Brawl one seems outdated.

@ Kal
While I don't agree with Jackie, there have been many tournament series in areas with Meta Knight problems that have had noticeable attendance increase. Although I think part of it is because people like to go to "different" tournaments more often, I think having some Meta Knight tournaments is a good thing.

Some TO (who I think opposes the URC MK banned) on AiB said his attendance went from about 12 to near 38.

While it may spark some people to want to attend more tournaments, I still don't think it should be the permanent law of the land. I think all of us should be able to agree on that much.

 

[The Star King]

meta knight doesn't have any counters.
I feel like i'm teaching pre-school here.

I feel your pain. Some of the things people are saying in this thread about Smash 64 are making me die a little on the inside.

 

[Kal]

While I don't agree with Jackie, there have been many tournament series in areas with Meta Knight problems that have had noticeable attendance increase. Although I think part of it is because people like to go to "different" tournaments more often, I think having some Meta Knight tournaments is a good thing.

Some TO (who I think opposes the URC MK banned) on AiB said his attendance went from about 12 to near 38.

Yeah, there might be a short term increase. But I sincerely doubt we will see any of these players stay. It's like when scrubby players who lost at Melee find out about Brawl. "This is my shot to start over with a game that's way better!" (and this "betterness" they qualify these games with is basically just that they suck). Sure, at first we see a huge influx of this sort of players, but after a while they stop showing up once they realize that they will be losing just as often.

In my opinion, the same will happen with Meta Knight. Players at first are interested because they can blame Meta Knight for their losses. But, once push comes to shove, they realize that they're still bad at the game and quit soon after.

As I've said before, when you pander to these players, you're conforming to demands from people who don't appreciate the game in the first place. The idea that they will stick around is not only wrong, but totally irrelevant.

 

[bossa nova ♪]

It's like when scrubby players who lost at Melee find out about Brawl. "This is my shot to start over with a game that's way better!" (and this "betterness" they qualify these games with is basically just that they suck). Sure, at first we see a huge influx of this sort of players, but after a while they stop showing up once they realize that they will be losing just as often.

Well. That is a tier of gamer that I believe exists. I don't disagree that Brawl had that effect, but to what degree? That's what I'm speculative of.



Somewhat related, I do find it consistently underestimated that there are a heavy amount of players, such as myself, that started with Brawl and went back (or forward... either way it's forward imo) to Melee... seeing it as having unquestionable superiority (which isn't saying much for a game like Brawl, but I'm pretty sure in its own right Melee is a supreme work of art).

 

[Kal]

Well it's not about the number of Brawl players who did this for Melee. That was just an example. It's about the MK-ban bringing in more players. I suspect that most, if not all, of this increased turnout will be short lived.

 

[Johnknight1]

Yeah, there might be a short term increase. But I sincerely doubt we will see any of these players stay. It's like when scrubby players who lost at Melee find out about Brawl. "This is my shot to start over with a game that's way better!" (and this "betterness" they qualify these games with is basically just that they suck). Sure, at first we see a huge influx of this sort of players, but after a while they stop showing up once they realize that they will be losing just as often.

In my opinion, the same will happen with Meta Knight. Players at first are interested because they can blame Meta Knight for their losses. But, once push comes to shove, they realize that they're still bad at the game and quit soon after.

As I've said before, when you pander to these players, you're conforming to demands from people who don't appreciate the game in the first place. The idea that they will stick around is not only wrong, but totally irrelevant.

I think some of them will stay. But again, Meta Knight doesn't need to be universally banned. If TOs want to ban him, go ahead. But we shouldn't universally ban him. Maybe ban him from (most) nationals and in some regions, but don't leave the 18% of Brawl competitive players (Meta Knights) out on the curb. They are some of the most passionate fans.

It's like the Yankees. They spend a s*** ton more money on players, but what would happen if they were axed=??? Most fans wouldn't go to the Mets, and Major League Baseball would lose probably their biggest fan base. Just make rules that favor more in the rest of everyone elses' favor (like a cap lock in baseball and basketball). That or Moneyball it and draft better.

I also think there should be more high/mid/low/bottom tier character tournaments. That definitely sparks interests, whether for the best of someone who mains like Link but gets ***** at tournaments, or for newcomers who want to use Link and have a legitimate chance of winning with him.

Also I do agree this could kill the community. Well, maybe not totally, but make it reasonably smaller, and not just Meta Knight users. Is Soul Calibur III an example of this=???

Does anyone have an examples of this happening to (any) competitive game, fighting or non-fighting alike=???

 

[Kal]

I think some of them will stay. But again, Meta Knight doesn't need to be universally banned. If TOs want to ban him, go ahead. But we shouldn't universally ban him. Maybe ban him from (most) nationals and in some regions, but don't leave the 18% of Brawl competitive players (Meta Knights) out on the curb. They are some of the most passionate fans.

This is another reason why minimalist banning is so important. Whether the game is "better" without Meta Knight just causes a rift in the community. So, until you can prove it explicitly broken, you leave it on.

I also think there should be more high/mid/low/bottom tier character tournaments. That definitely sparks interests, whether for the best of someone who mains like Link but gets ***** at tournaments, or for newcomers who want to use Link and have a legitimate chance of winning with him.

I don't think such events would really increase attendance or make the game more popular in any way.

Also I do agree this could kill the community. Well, maybe not totally, but make it reasonably smaller, and not just Meta Knight users.

It will at most kill 25% of the community. Those players who do not think Meta Knight should be banned are the only ones likely to quit the game due to this decision, I think. However, I expect most players who already like the game will just change mains.

The thing I want to emphasize is that the new players who come in after the ban, strictly because of the ban, will not stay long. So, the way I see it (in the long-run), this ban has absolutely no positives as far as increasing turnout goes.

And, as I've said before, I am not at all for altering rulesets on the basis of increasing turnout. It's insulting to the community and insulting to the players you're pandering to.

 

[Spelt]

I feel your pain. Some of the things people are saying in this thread about Smash 64 are making me die a little on the inside.

Don't be too mad.
They're just not used to a smash game where Link is so overpowered and throws are useless.

Ban link, obviously.

 

[Johnknight1]

This is another reason why minimalist banning is so important. Whether the game is "better" without Meta Knight just causes a rift in the community. So, until you can prove it explicitly broken, you leave it on.

Exactly. Make it an option.

I don't think such events would really increase attendance or make the game more popular in any way.

Actually bottom/low/mid tier tournaments are quite popular, and I think having a mid/low/bottom tier tournament at a tournament event could help raise awareness for said characters, and could basically create a different scene to coincide with the regular scene.

Plus through them we get to see some of the best non-high tier match ups. C'mon-we all secretly love Link dittos in Melee!

It will at most kill 25% of the community. Those players who do not think Meta Knight should be banned are the only ones likely to quit the game due to this decision, I think. However, I expect most players who already like the game will just change mains.

Yeah I think most Meta Knight mains will stay, but a few will leave. That or the Meta Knight mains will just attend non-URC rule set tournaments.

The thing I want to emphasize is that the new players who come in after the ban, strictly because of the ban, will not stay long. So, the way I see it (in the long-run), this ban has absolutely no positives as far as increasing turnout goes.

I think new players won't come because of the ban, unless they have been inactive from Brawl for years.

The players who attend only a few tournaments because they hate Meta Knight might disappear though.

And, as I've said before, I am not at all for altering rulesets on the basis of increasing turnout. It's insulting to the community and insulting to the players you're pandering to.

I think they should try to alter the rules (outside of the game) to increase turn out. Bigger ools, more matches for people who don't stand a chance, more non-tournament set ups, good players helping newcomers, a friendly yet competitive atmosphere, lots of people helping the TOs, etc. These really do help the community.

Sure, host a Meta Knight banned tournament every few times, or a low/mid tier tournament, but don't change a rule forever.

Also, unban New Pork City in Brawl or Infinite Glacier in Melee every 13 tournaments.

Edit: I think the subject of the thread isn't "What does it take to be banned," but rather, "What should it take to be a ban."

 

[HomeStylePie]

Guys lets ban Kenyans from running in marathons.

 

[Johnknight1]

^ Agreed. They're speed makes me feel slow, therefore they should SIT DOWN AND DIEEEE!!!!

 

[Claire Diviner]

Or ban Rare Akuma, Dark Ronald, and Nightmare Broly from MUGEN.

Have there been fighting games where characters were banned, despite their fighting style not having been intended to be broken (other than Meta Knight, of course) by the designers? I wanna say Karai from the SNES TMNT Tournament Fighter. Just wondering. I think Ivy may have been banned in a Soul Calibur game somewhere, I think, and I also believe Kratos is banned in Soul Calibur for the PSP. Any thoughts?

 

[Masmasher@]

Hilde for soul calibur four is the only character in that series that was banned
her style wasnt intended to be broken
but doom combo is horrendous.
beatable, yes, but is it stupid as **** to the point of being her being questionably banned
yes

the funny thing is that a quick patch wouldve have balanced her so easily

 

[Claire Diviner]

Hilde for soul calibur four is the only character in that series that was banned
her style wasnt intended to be broken
but doom combo is horrendous.
beatable, yes, but is it stupid as **** to the point of being her being questionably banned
yes

the funny thing is that a quick patch wouldve have balanced her so easily

Perhaps the same could be said of all fighting games with online capabilities. Hell, Brawl would've definitely benefited from patches and updates, seeing as - as fun as the game is - even I have to admit the game is quite far from perfection. Oh well, what can one do, right?

 

[Sunnysunny]

The games *** but I still play it. :l

Heres hoping online patches (and good online options in general) are in the next release. Cheers and what not.

Btw, whoever said people who play brawl get into melee, thats what I did. :3 Scrubby shiek main grabbing and tilting all day yo. I actually started playing as shiek in brawl. She feels like a melee character trapped in the brawl engine.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hilde for soul calibur four is the only character in that series that was banned
her style wasnt intended to be broken
but doom combo is horrendous.
beatable, yes, but is it stupid as **** to the point of being her being questionably banned
yes

the funny thing is that a quick patch wouldve have balanced her so easily

I thought they banned Algol, not Hilde.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Masmasher@]

I thought they banned Algol, not Hilde.

Smooth Criminal

Lol forgot Algol but that's because he was banned a bit earlier he was rarely played at high level play anyways

Hilde is banned in the majority of tournaments now though

 

[GameClucks]

GameClucks Monthlies (the largest and more regular event in the WA, OR, ID area) will continue to allow MetaKnight in their events.

In the next 6-12 months, I plan to roll my TourneyPlay Monthly Series (now called the GC Monthly) into 50-100 venues across the US, using my GC/TP Rule Set.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

ok alright Kal i see your point heh >.<

Tbh i'm glad to see some actually good anti-ban arguments. It doesn't really matter to me either way what happens, even if all this does is help us realize MK really doesn't deserve to be banned once and for all. I just think the issue needs to end and maybe this decision could have some positive changes, I dunno what makes you so sure there won't be any. If nothing else it could be a lot more interesting to watch, remember like the Genesis 2 grand finals? Melee was soo hyped whereas brawl was the opposite.

I don't play Brawl much anymore anyways, but I used to and have been following the community a bit and I just don't want people outside of it to get the wrong impression here. And I don't have all the data on MK's brokenness but its there to an extent, and i don't think this is the place to get into the already overdone heated debate over it which caused a lot of problems itself anyways.

You play melee exclusively and so do I pretty much now so this all seems kinda silly to argue over heh...but i do find it interesting

EDIT: and i agree patch updates for balance purposes would have made this so much easier

 

[Sinji]

Tournament organizers need to have independence. The fact that people listen to organizers is ridiculous. In my tourneys down here, we play based off of what all of the players feel comfortable about. We legalize Corneria, Mute City e.t.c as counter picks. Seems fair. Everyone wins. They say "the votes count", but in this case it is wrong. Essentially, the majority of players wanted to ban MetaKnight because they blame his tools and attributes in the game. They do not understand the character as much as metaknight mains. The hypocritical players that are now defending the fact that metaknight is banned should feel ashamed. Just because the votes are clear that metaknght should be banned shouldn't mean he should be banned. Think outside of the box users. For example. Hypothetically speaking if they ban Kongo Jungle 64, does that mean we shouldn't play on that stage in local tourneys? We are all in the motion and we need to think outside of the box. This is for both the Melee and Brawl community. I can see the corruption from both sides.

 

[ShroudedOne]

F***. I can't tell if you're Jpobs or you, Sinji. Mindgames...

But yeah, I think that's valid.