What do the Melee Legends think of P:M?

[GamerGuy09]

^That statement isn't accurate, even for formality's sake.
Being a true smash fan and being afraid of change are related in essentially no way at all.
^That's called an accurate statement.

Melee is a good game, great infact. However Project: M is better in every way possible. Better looking, better balance, better characters, better everything. I don't get people who dislike Project: M, that must be the only reason to not like P:M is to not like change.

 

[Fortress]

^That statement isn't accurate, even for formality's sake.
Being a true smash fan and being afraid of change are related in essentially no way at all.
^That's called an accurate statement.

Um. Who were you meaning to quote..? I just don't know how I should respond.

 

[GamerGuy09]

Um. Who were you meaning to quote..? I just don't know how I should respond.

He was talking to me. I believe that it is insane that someone could not like Project: M when it is better than Melee in every way possible. It takes Melee, and makes it more balanced, looks nicer, and adds new characters.

If I had a choice between Project: M or Melee for EVO, I would choose Project: M in a heartbeat. Again, MARIO AND BOWSER were in the finals. You know how crazy that is? That is something that brings tears of joy to Sakurai's eyes.

 

[Fortress]

Melee is a good game, great infact. However Project: M is better in every way possible. Better looking, better balance, better characters, better everything. I don't get people who dislike Project: M, that must be the only reason to not like P:M is to not like change.

I agree, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair for parts of us as a P:M community to decide what the Melee crowd likes and does not and why. It's just the game they're used to; it's the game they play. It's like if we were to take me and throw me into Smash 64. I wouldn't enjoy it as much. It's not the game I play. I think it's just as simple as that, really. There's no reason that the Melee players have to move onto P:M.

 

[GamerGuy09]

I agree, but at the same time, I don't think it's fair for parts of us as a P:M community to decide what the Melee crowd likes and does not and why. It's just the game they're used to; it's the game they play. It's like if we were to take me and throw me into Smash 64. I wouldn't enjoy it as much. It's not the game I play. I think it's just as simple as that, really. There's no reason that the Melee players have to move onto P:M.

Agreed, but we wouldn't say that SM64 sucks. We would just say we don't like it as much as the others. People who don't respect P:M are fools in my opinion for all that the PMBR has done for the smash community.

 

[Fortress]

You know how crazy that is? That is something that brings tears of joy to Sakurai's eyes.

Wasn't Sakurai quoted as saying something along the lines of Project M's core design path being flawed, and that we weren't playing Smash 'correctly' or enjoying it the way we were supposed to? I know I've seen that out there.

 

[Fortress]

Agreed, but we wouldn't say that SM64 sucks. We would just say we don't like it as much as the others. People who don't respect P:M are fools in my opinion for all that the PMBR has done for the smash community.

Hey, well, if it weren't for Melee and all it brought to the table, we probably wouldn't be here talking. We have to have our own respect for Melee, whether or not we like it or prefer it. If people don't respect P:M, then fine, why should that stop you from enjoying it? If somebody wants to complain about it, cool.

 

[GamerGuy09]

Wasn't Sakurai quoted as saying something along the lines of Project M's core design path being flawed, and that we weren't playing Smash 'correctly' or enjoying it the way we were supposed to? I know I've seen that out there.

He said that about Melee, then he put his foot in his mouth when everyone got mad. I think that he is focusing more on competitive play with SSB4 now.

Hey, well, if it weren't for Melee and all it brought to the table, we probably wouldn't be here talking. We have to have our own respect for Melee, whether or not we like it or prefer it. If people don't respect P:M, then fine, why should that stop you from enjoying it? If somebody wants to complain about it, cool.

I love Melee, I agree it is better than Brawl is every way shape and form. I don't think it is a bad game at all in fact, one of the best fighters out there. But the fact is that PMBR has put so much hours into helping the community, even creating a new system in which allows brand new characters is crazy. Your right, people have their own opinions. I just wish I knew why they think like that.

 

[Fortress]

GamerGuy09
^That statement isn't accurate, even for formality's sake.
Being a true smash fan and being afraid of change are related in essentially no way at all.
^That's called an accurate statement.

Edit: Fortress
Wolf F-Smash has a lot of sour-spots and is actually quite obscure to hit with it in a functional way that would make it better than doing almost anything else in that position. It's either worth hitting with the tipper-hit only, for kill purposes/knock-back, or doing something else entirely.
He's also fast, so hit-stun on aerials may seem longer since he can move to the moon and back, and still hit you before you can move at all.

I'm not meaning to sound like I don't like you or anything, but you know how to do that, right? Split quotes up? I was just wondering, since it's just easier to read at a glance. Whatever, I can get over it, sorry.

I still don't like his F-Smash, but I probably haven't played him enough at all to fully appreciate what that move can really do and how you do it. As for the hitlag, I think you're right; the dude's just so fast that it feels like I'm trapped for longer than I really am.

 

[Fortress]

Has it really been just half a page of us?

 

[GamerGuy09]

Has it really been just half a page of us?

Yeah I guess, also you should stop double posting. Use the edit tool.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I like melee better than project m at the moment. Melees gameplay is undoubtedly faster, with less problems. I play project m more often than melee though, because I think thats it's refreshing to have new courses and matchups, not just the same top 10 characters that were viable in melee.
In my opinion, PM is in a situation where its dying from 1000 papercuts. If all the minor problems with the game were fixed, I would honestly never pick melee up again.
I could be wrong on this, but melees meteor canceling seemed more responsive. Also, the shields in project m make shield grabbing too viable of an option, especially with characters with large grab ranges (snake, charizard). In my opinion, those are the only real problems with the game. This game has all my hope for smash in the future. Can't wait to see what happens in 3.0.

 

[Kally Wally]

The "Melee is more responsive" angle is something that I could never relate to. A lot of Melee players call PM "clunky" or "awkward" or any number of similar things, but to me, it's the opposite.

I played PM before I ever played Melee at all, and going back, my first thought was how clunky and awkward Melee felt by comparison. It's a matter of perspective.

 

[Veishi336]

The "Melee is more responsive" angle is something that I could never relate to. A lot of Melee players call PM "clunky" or "awkward" or any number of similar things, but to me, it's the opposite.

I played PM before I ever played Melee at all, and going back, my first thought was how clunky and awkward Melee felt by comparison. It's a matter of perspective.

i feel the same way. Even though i played melee first but that was some years ago. I played melee this past weekend with one of my brother's friends and he demolished me because i felt off somehow. Like slower off or delayed in a way. They both have differences. Im more apt to play PM than melee all the time. No matter how fast melee is and fun i just get tired of seeing the same old same old match ups. New chars bring new mechanics, New stages bring more strategy, etc etc...

 

[Nguz95]

Melee feels smoother for most people because there is no input lag. Although the PMBR managed to reduce the input lag for Brawl significantly (which is a miracle in and of itself) there are still 0-2 frames of input lag. I know that doesn't matter too much, but it can throw some people off. Melee also does not allow you to short hop after the second to last frame of your jump squat. The window in PM extends through all frames. That means Melee vets will sometimes short-hop when they want to full hop. It's just small things at the moment. I feel like if i canget good at Melee i will get better at both games, while if i practice pm i won't get better at Melee.

 

[Nausicaa]

Melee is a good game, great infact. However Project: M is better in every way possible. Better looking, better balance, better characters, better everything. I don't get people who dislike Project: M, that must be the only reason to not like P:M is to not like change.

This made me laugh pretty hard.

 

[Wingflier]

Concerning what Gamerguy said, I agree it's a little silly. No matter how much "evidence" you think you have, you can never "prove" that one game is objectively better than another, because it's all a matter of opinion.

Besides, much of what attracts people to any given game are intangible characteristics that can't ever be replicated anyway such as nostalgia or "feel". No two games will ever feel exactly the same.

Let's be honest, Melee must be a pretty damn good game if we are trying to emulate it. Having said that, I would like to think of Project M as the future of Melee. It doesn't matter how good of a game Melee was, eventually it IS going to die. It is inevitable. Every game dies, it does not matter how well it was created back in its time.

Even the all-time competitive greats like Starcraft 1 and the original Counter-Strike eventually lost their steam and had to be replaced by more modern sequels. Project M is that re-invigoration that Melee needs. Make no mistake, it will die one way or another. The Melee vets should be thankful that somebody is doing the best they can to make a spiritual sequel of it, even if it's not a carbon copy. Sakurai sure as hell wouldn't have. Like it or not, this is the future of Melee. That's why we need to treat the Melee vets with kindness and respect so that when that decision inevitably comes, they make the right choice.

 

[Strong Badam]

Melee feels smoother for most people because there is no input lag. Although the PMBR managed to reduce the input lag for Brawl significantly (which is a miracle in and of itself) there are still 0-2 frames of input lag. I know that doesn't matter too much, but it can throw some people off. Melee also does not allow you to short hop after the second to last frame of your jump squat. The window in PM extends through all frames. That means Melee vets will sometimes short-hop when they want to full hop. It's just small things at the moment. I feel like if i canget good at Melee i will get better at both games, while if i practice pm i won't get better at Melee.

This is wrong. We announced the fact that Brawl has 0-2 frames of input lag after we had already fixed it. Any physics differences between Melee that remain can be attributed to the fact that physics changes take into effect a frame later compared to Melee, which isn't an actual input lag.

 

[Nguz95]

This is wrong. We announced the fact that Brawl has 0-2 frames of input lag after we had already fixed it. Any physics differences between Melee that remain can be attributed to the fact that physics changes take into effect a frame later compared to Melee, which isn't an actual input lag.

Well then that's my bad. I should have double checked my sources before posting then. I'm sorry.

 

[Strong Badam]

No problem bro

 

[F. Blue]

Here's a question I've been sitting on forever about the 1 frame physics delay.

As I understand it, because the physics delay affects jumping, it adds an extra frame of jumpsquat to every chacter. Why doesn't PMBR, to correct this, subtract a frame from each character's jumpsquat values eg: Give Fox 2 frames of jumpsquat instead of 3 so that with the physics delay it would become 3?

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

The "Melee is more responsive" angle is something that I could never relate to. A lot of Melee players call PM "clunky" or "awkward" or any number of similar things, but to me, it's the opposite.

I played PM before I ever played Melee at all, and going back, my first thought was how clunky and awkward Melee felt by comparison. It's a matter of perspective.

One-frame physics delay in PM means that Melee is objectively more "responsive". You'll probably have to switch back once Dant and the coding wizards smooth it back out like Melee's physics.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

Here's a question I've been sitting on forever about the 1 frame physics delay.

As I understand it, because the physics delay affects jumping, it adds an extra frame of jumpsquat to every chacter. Why doesn't PMBR, to correct this, subtract a frame from each character's jumpsquat values eg: Give Fox 2 frames of jumpsquat instead of 3 so that with the physics delay it would become 3?

The shorthop input window would match but then the characters would leave the ground faster.

 

[Nausicaa]

Pivots...
Freaking pivots still get me, no matter how much I work on it, switching from Melee to PM and back is a nightmare.
I think Magus said it's easier in PM, due to some form of leniency, and I think* I remember him saying he didn't mind with his 'flick' technique, and it IS if I stick with one since I just play softly and use actual motion in execution rather than weird flicking things, but that swapping-games...
THAT SWAPPING GAMES!!!

 

[F. Blue]

The shorthop input window would match but then the characters would leave the ground faster.

Really? As it is now I feel like Fox leaves the ground later. I'd like some clarification as to what the physics delay means. Does Fox leave the ground on the same frame, travel on a Brawl jump arc for one frame, then switch to the Melee physics for the remainder of the jump? Or does he just spend one extra frame in his previous state (in this case jumpsquat) while the game 'thinks' about what physics it wants to use?

 

[MetalMan]

Honestly I find A LOT of reasons valid as to why not to like/play PM. Nonetheless I feel there are certain reasons that come off as restrictive. The biggest one for me would be to say "X player still doesnt play like in Melee(or any other smash for that matter, but ill use Melee especially since its more of the base of PM". I for one think characters that have gone relatively unchanged such as Fox, Falco, and C. Falcon SHOULD change. Obviously, not a complete change but to me its restrictive thinking to say that when one of those characters plays exactly as he did in Melee he is complete. To me PM is a fresh take on Smash, Im pretty sure even those characters need some tweaking.

It is unfair to say that things will be fine when either the Physics or certain characters revert totally to Melee the game is complete. Project M can go BEYOND what other Smash games have gone, and thats the magic of it. I know a lot of veteran players would love to just hop in and use their character exactly as in their favorite game of choice BUT we should think a bit more about that. Game sequels are ENCOURAGED to improve upon past iterations.

Had Melee gone by this logic, it would have kept the EXACT same playstyle as 64, hitsun, attack stats and all. It wouldnt have brought everything that WAS brought by improving the base. I know no player from 64 played the same in Melee, was this a bad thing? No, it was wonderful. Did people have to readjust to their character of choice? Yes, and thats without thinking of Side B. Was it the worst thing ever? No, I felt different, I worked with my character, I figured out his new particularities, and figured how to play him as i did.

The only thing this does is help the game grow but also helps the player, to rediscover the roster. This post has gone for enough so to end it Ill say im not saying overhaul all veteran's movesets, just dont be so wary of changes if the character at the core is STILL the same.

Besides, in Brawl I liked to play as Lucario, who in turn got a major moveset change, Yet it was for the better. I toyed with it and now love him more than ever.

 

[Spiffykins]

Really? As it is now I feel like Fox leaves the ground later. I'd like some clarification as to what the physics delay means. Does Fox leave the ground on the same frame, travel on a Brawl jump arc for one frame, then switch to the Melee physics for the remainder of the jump? Or does he just spend one extra frame in his previous state (in this case jumpsquat) while the game 'thinks' about what physics it wants to use?

I remember asking the same question a while back so I know the answer. Jumpsquat is the same number of frames, but you start your jump arc from a lower point because of the physics delay.

 

[Nausicaa]

helps the player, to rediscover the roster.

More like helps me realize how slow people are at picking up new things due to conditioned habits from over-playing themselves into the ground.

Seriously, I have no idea how anyone can play more than 2/3 times a week and not be a god at this game, aside from simply those people not being fully aware when playing.
The same thing applies to everything in life. Mind over matter. People seem to need that 1000 hour rule when it should take 100 at the most if they paid attention to anything.

PM brings my hopes up for humans, then drops it into the ocean of ignorance tide to an anchor labelled 'I'm unknowingly addicted to personal misery'
Want to be good at smash? Read my last 100 posts that have more than 5 paragraphs. It's nothing new, nothing you don't already know, but really, everyone is a legend by now in a world where people meditate or do any form of mental practice. It's simple and easy, like cake, except you can eat it too.

There's a reason almost anyone in any walk of life who has mastered their art, understands that the difference between good and great doesn't stem from a certain critical massive of experience, or a certain level of understand of tricks, or intuitive nuances from over-exposure to the thing they do. It comes from an awareness. The way someone sees what the see. Not WHAT they see, the WAY they see it. Smash documentary example: It doesn't matter that Ken saw WHAT to do against a Fox running across a stage and laser spamming (WHAT to do was Grab), what matters is he had the frame of mind to SEE what to do. To SEE anything at all, regardless of WHAT there is to see.
Work with mind, and everything falls into place.

 

[Mithost]

I'm here to deliver more opinions from the pros, this time from facebook. I asked this question on M2K's wall and after a few days, he got back to me. Short and sweet, but interesting none the less.

 

[JOE!]

Problem with the more Buffs than Nerfs is that everything would always be going "up", and nothing could be brought down if it went too far.

 

[| Kailex |]

Brawl - :3

 

[Viceversa96]

Wasn't Sakurai quoted as saying something along the lines of Project M's core design path being flawed, and that we weren't playing Smash 'correctly' or enjoying it the way we were supposed to? I know I've seen that out there.

Holy **** where did he say that? I want to sock him in the mouth. There is no "right way" to play Smash. That's what makes it great. You can play Smash in anyway. My friends are not even competitive and they like P:M more than Brawl. They can play special brawl or go turn items on or do whatever they want. Just like us where we don't play with items or anything, we are playing Smash our way. Pffft "right way to play Smash".

 

[GaretHax]

Spoiler

i'd like to speak my mind on the PM community, and this is coming from a melee player who absolutely loves PM and thinks its the future of the Melee scene and brawl scene.

its been months that i haven't posted anything, and i've just been lurking around everywhere, watching and reading and reading and reading, and i have to say i'm disappointed in the PM community, or better yet, the behavior i've seen the last couple of months have been nothing short of childish and just a general lack of sense

i don't know how to explain it too all of you, but even when people that are part of the top brass like SB tell everyone they are welcome, now i actually feel like i'll get hated on just bc my main is a spacie, i felt welcome, better yet i felt like i was just a demo away from finally migrating to PM for good and actually be part of a new growing community that doesn't have X amount of years already established, I've never felt bad in my small melee community but i feel like i can't contribute to anything in any meta-game and actually become a driving force in my country to lead on new players, it was a different feeling from PM, i feel like all of these new characters and well the game itself has so much untapped potential that maybe i could help out and really change things in the brawl scene where i live.

i've read it everywhere "Melee players hate PM", "all the melee players i've met say PM is ****", "they say PM is just a side-event, a side show for the main event", and "melee players say its not worth it/they can't change sapcies/x character is too broken or isn't smash-like" and "they all say you can't change that bcuz melee"etc.

Where does all this hate come from? It reminds me of brawl players that constantly whine about the melee community hating on brawl 5 years after it was released, and the fact that people just didn't care anymore after the first year and went back to melee, its dumb and just kinda ignorant, the PM community is the bridge between melee and brawl, both type of players from both games are finally coming together in, what i thought, would be a harmonious unification that has been long awaited thanks to this game, but i personally DO NOT feel welcome anymore, i feel like i'm "that" melee guy that still plays melee over PM, and if you guys take Mango as our representative then your just looking for an excuse to whine

Why exactly do you think these people don't play PM like all of you do? Bc they think it sucks? Bc they think its un-smash like? Bc they think that it has to be a carbon copy of maylay? No, its bc the game still hasn't properly emulated the melee engine, it still doesn't feel as fast nor responsive as Melee, theres not that satisfying on-point control that you have over your character, its just not there, so of course melee players still prefer melee over PM. Not only that, i was actually frustrated with lots of them bc they didn't seem to understand that PM is an on-going project, and that hey maybe the next demo to come out it'll feel like melee enough, and that the PM team are focused on balance and emulating melee's incredible engine, while also creating something that is just its on thing, don't get me wrong, the PM devs have made something that is utterly the greatest smash game ever, but as of late i've seen that PM players seem to care more about characters than mechanics and special modes and etc. i would really really really like to use Falcon and falco again the way i use them in melee, not just some strange copies that feel like they've gained several pounds in the wait between melee and brawl.

I'm actually glad Vigilante said what he said, it gave me some hope and well he understands the big why, and its the only reason that i'm posting this bc it feels like i actually have some backup in a place where i started feeling alone.

*sigh* nonetheless, i adore PM, i have mad respect for the PMBR, knowing all of this has been done in their spare time is just mind-blowing, and it seems like every demo is at least 10x better then the last, not only that they just get better and better at balancing while creating a fun a unique character, hell 2.5 was great for like a month, then it just got a little stale with some characters and then i once again went back to melee, then 2.6 came in and i was blown away by what they had done with characters like Link, bowser, lucas, lucario, sonic, DDD etc. not to mention that i was just ****** my head around the fact that they released MK for the first time, and yet he feels perfect and he feels very very fair to use and to fight against, oh and fun too. I'm a guy that has to practice alone in melee, i've got another friend that use to play with me, but he quit melee, but last year his interest in smash reignited after i showed him PM, i bought a Wii just to play it, bc i just had to, and now with 3.0 around the corner, this very same pal of mine has decided to sell his PS2 to but a Wii, and who do i have to thank for that? The PMBR of course and PM itself, i'm gonna help him buy it with any money that is left, my point is what Melee fails to do in so many aspects of keeping people with its characters and balance, it makes up for it with the engine and that fast-paced action, but even then, it seems like melee isn't for everyone, it seems like it wasn't for my friend. But take a look at PM, a brawl mod with melee as an inspiration that lacks the years of community contribution to the respective scene and meta-game, a mod that is still in demo and still has many many many things to work out before going gold, a mod that isn't just as easy as popping a disc in the tray and starting it, and a mod that is in a general community that lacks sponsors of any kind, even with all of that, even with everything that is still left to be done, PM managed to make my friend a smasher, and probably my future training partner

PM is the greatest thing to happen to Smash, and the PMBR is the most professional mod team that i've seen since never, and as such, i hope and wish that the PMBR become examples, role-models of how to treat players from all three games, a neutral team with a clear goal in mind that are unbiased, and i'd like a change in this community regarding the melee hate i've seen the past 3-4 months, and i'd like if the PMBR turn into the reason why the PM community is so friendly and accepting (in the near future i hope)

all in all, just wait, PM will be just as big as CS, and i thank you all for what your doing

Quoted for Truth, for the first time in my incessant lurking (since the start of the original social thread, or more accurately since the rumors started back in b+ days) I've actually found myself taking long breaks from the forums and honestly not giving a damn about what I missed in the social thread. Quite frankly the attitude shift of a few of the more active PM community members and dev's, has been unprofessional, off-putting, and deeply disconcerting. I have been rendered speechless by the direction the boards have taken and doubt I could have been as concise or polite as the gentleman whom I've quoted. I have seen no evidence of the PM hate Melee players supposedly harbor, on smashboards, in the local community, or on tournament streams, and you know what, even if it did exist people are entitled to their opinions. There's no need to be downright elitist pricks toward some silly stereotype of a community that, in reality, generally supports this project and makes up a fair majority of its' player-base. Why can't we enjoy PM and talk about the damn game instead of bashing Brawl or Melee and the people who play them?

Also @ ItalianStallion, here's the thread you were referring to http://smashboards.com/threads/what-would-get-you-guys-inetrested-in-project-m.337951/ , I'm afraid it went down quite differently from what you seem to recall, in fact a few people ironically complained about the community even back then, though IIRC the anti melee and anti-spacie sentiments were already starting to become excessive then as well.

 

[TreK]

There is one thing that I genuinely do not understand.
Why would the Melee guys want to play their Melee main in P:M ? Is it nostalgia or something ? Because nostalgia is not going to make you win tournaments.
What I mean is that even if the engine magically became Melee's exact engine, it's not like it would be easy mode for them. There would be new matchups to learn, new stages to handle, and most importantly, new ATs. The first two will require work, but ATs will not only require work, they'll also screw up their Melee habits.
So even if we don't take the 'risk' that their characters get reworked and the slight differences between Melee and PM into account, that doesn't sound like a smart move to make to begin with.

 

[| Kailex |]

Theyre just too lazy to try out other characters, but that doesnt include ALL melee players

 

[F. Blue]

I feel like a hero whenever I pick Jiggs in PM, cause she's just so overshadowed now.

 

[TreK]

yeah, you could replace that with "why would anybody want to play the character they play in their other game ?"
I'm pointing out bad individual decision making here, not a community trend (even though it is indeed more pronounced in the Melee/PM people, I do know some Brawl guys who play their Brawl mains in PM, and I seriously wonder how hard it must be xD)

 

[trash?]

does nobody remember the several space animal threads that were since locked

any original attempt to say "maybe change isn't the worst thing" was met with "this is invalid because you aren't as good as I am". at one point the thread turned into "reflex thinks change is good and that's because he's a fraud, probably", during a time where he was one of the sole reasons people considered wario good. these weren't some melee scrubs arguing, these were people who considered themselves to be veterans in melee.

stuff like SB's huge post did not come from some magical change in the force, that was a culmination of every single time the collective community had to deal with relentless and unreasonable whining from so many areas

if you refuse to talk to us reasonably, we should see no reason to do the same. if you want to talk to us with actual discussion and not swift-boiled rage thinly disguised as conversation, then I'll give you a chance, but only then.

 

[Fortress]

There is one thing that I genuinely do not understand.
Why would the Melee guys want to play their Melee main in P:M ?

I'm not choosing anybody's side or anything, but I would assume that it's something simple like "it's the character they already know how to play", and that excluding all Melee characters as choices would leave them a very shallow pool of characters to choose from.

If you want to be a spacie, be a spacie. If you want to play ROB, Wario, D3, or any of the newcomers, go for it. If you want to brave the glass cannon that is Game and Watch, then by all means do so. I get excited when I see players in the Melee crowd playing their Melee mains. It's nice to see what does and doesn't transition over, and how those players react in a new environment.

I just wish that portions of both communities would act like we're part of the same scene, however. The P:M-hate and Melee-hate, for whatever reasons people might have, is unwarranted.

 

[GaretHax]

does nobody remember the several space animal threads that were since locked

any original attempt to say "maybe change isn't the worst thing" was met with "this is invalid because you aren't as good as I am". at one point the thread turned into "reflex thinks change is good and that's because he's a fraud, probably", during a time where he was one of the sole reasons people considered wario good. these weren't some melee scrubs arguing, these were people who considered themselves to be veterans in melee.

stuff like SB's huge post did not come from some magical change in the force, that was a culmination of every single time the collective community had to deal with relentless and unreasonable whining from so many areas

if you refuse to talk to us reasonably, we should see no reason to do the same. if you want to talk to us with actual discussion and not swift-boiled rage thinly disguised as conversation, then I'll give you a chance, but only then.

I was involved in most of those threads and your recollection of them is jaded, biased, and incorrect. I suggest you glance back over them. Strongbad's post, while on the whole interesting, came literally out of the blue, guns blazing. Honestly I still find myself wondering if it was even directed at anyone in that thread or on these boards. It seemed more like a resolution to an argument in the backroom than something that belonged in what was previously, literally, just a reasonable discussion of the characters, not to mention the unmistakably negative tone towards the melee community maintained throughout. His post makes some good points, but it didn't and still doesn't feel warranted, it seems more like he is personally calling out a select few people and comes across all-around bitter, while essentially just saying, albiet longwindedly, PM is its' own game and should be developed as such, which it should. However I just cannot get behind his bastardization of players just because they don't personally like something, or haven't shown interest, especially when the few are used to exemplify an entire community. Really I wouldn't mind how bitter his post is if he weren't PMBR, but his words carry alot of weight behind them, it is unfortunate to think that a few people interested in the project may come to these boards expecting a welcoming, united, community and stumble upon all this segregation, elitism, and negativitity, only to understandably lose interest in the smash community as a whole. However Vigilante's post exemplifies the diversity in the backroom and was honestly really refreshing.