What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[Ninj4pikachu]

Anybody read the smasheurope article on the home page?... It was a solid argument.

I'm for customs but I get why the anti-customs are against them. They have sound reasoning. I believe customs won't become standard, but they have way too many followers to die out. I feel they will have a nitch meta of their own in smaller tournaments because they DO shake things up, and THEIR FUN.

Maybe if customs were programmed into the game with a competitive mindset they would become standard, but they seem like they were somewhat half heartedly added.

I believe there will be a split between a custom meta, and a larger standard meta. But I don't think this is bad because as much as I like customs, I'll still do standard with no qualms. I can see TO's doing a standard for a big pot, and then a customs for a small pot the same day.

I just hope nobudy here is so set in their ways that if there was a tournament that was hosting both for the entry price of one that they wouldn't jump in to one of them because of their views. Because the moment I hear "smashbrothers" I don't care what "type" of tournament it is I'll gladly jump in and play

 

[Unknownkid]

I don't believe it is a sound argument or else we will allow Palutena and Mii Fighter to use their alternate special since we the community are too lazy to grind for more variety. I mean we have to grind for Mewtwo, Final Destination and GnW in Melee. You have to pay money for DLC Characters and Stages. What exactly define something unfair or fair? I believe Sakurai left customs for the really dedicated players. That's why unlocking characters in Smash 4 was much much easier than the previous versions. I really want him to address this. He obviously watching and listening to his audience based on the patches and Mii Costume (YES, I am pissed about K. Rool).

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I don't believe it is a sound argument or else we will allow Palutena and Mii Fighter to use their alternate special since we the community are too lazy to grind for more variety. I mean we have to grind for Mewtwo, Final Destination and GnW in Melee. You have to pay money for DLC Characters and Stages. What exactly define something unfair or fair? I believe Sakurai left customs for the really dedicated players. That's why unlocking characters in Smash 4 was much much easier than the previous versions. I really want him to address this. He obviously watching and listening to his audience based on the patches and Mii Costume (YES, I am pissed about K. Rool).

Oh come on, K.Rool is not even in any of the new DK games. He is liked yes, but he didn't really have much impact on the DK series as a whole. In an interview with sakuri he said he picks influential characters, and characters with unique qualitys. K.Rool is a fat alligator... Wtf is he going to do that bowser can't? He is boring.

And while I am for customs, the logistics of unlocking all the characters on SEVERAL WiiUs for a tournament is not even comparable to what we had to do in melee. Heck at least in melee you were guaranteed the character after completing the task. Customs are RNG.

The better argument to use would be that you can use the 3ds to move up 10 customs sets for each character, but then there is the argument of which sets to use?...

I like customs, but these issues must be addressed and the solutions are tedious and many TO's aren't going to go the extra mile.

 

[Unknownkid]

Oh come on, K.Rool is not even in any of the new DK games. He is liked yes, but he didn't really have much impact on the DK series as a whole. In an interview with sakuri he said he picks influential characters, and characters with unique qualitys. K.Rool is a fat alligator... Wtf is he going to do that bowser can't? He is boring.

And while I am for customs, the logistics of unlocking all the characters on SEVERAL WiiUs for a tournament is not even comparable to what we had to do in melee. Heck at least in melee you were guaranteed the character after completing the task. Customs are RNG.

The better argument to use would be that you can use the 3ds to move up 10 customs sets for each character, but then there is the argument of which sets to use?...

I like customs, but these issues must be addressed and the solutions are tedious and many TO's aren't going to go the extra mile.

If you think K.Rool is similar to Bowser you need to play all 3 DKC again and again until until you realize the difference. You can't be this ignorant. Whatever... this is not place to argue about his inclusion.

Meh... Turbo Ganon Method work for me within 1 day (of course I had half the customs unlock beforehand). I will admit that Melee has the luxury to copy save files from one memory card to another.

I like the "8" sets project. It makes the character's community get together and discuss which sets were the best, which sets can counter other characters or their sets and how they function together. I have learned a lot from going to each character custom thread and understand why they choose one move over another. For example, most people believe there is no point to anything except for Dragon Rush for Charizard. Sadly, that is not true. Dragon Rush loses to/clash projectiles since it lack super armor. Default Sheik can needle camp Charizard with DR where Fire Blitz beat Needles. The stronger Flare Blitz is good against spot dodge or punishing recovery. You leave a powerful, lingering hitbox can mess with plenty of characters. The extra slots are for players with obnoxious builds. Both AA and Thinkamen said that several players were using the less recommended sets at EVO...

While there are issues that need to address, the more lean towards away from customs - the more players will not "waste" their time to unlocking.

Nintendo should release a master code or something.

Edit: If Logistical is the problem which is understandable (I know grinding to hard and tedious), then we should allow Palutena and Mii Fighters to use their customs still they are unlocked from the start.

 

[Raijinken]

If you think K.Rool is similar to Bowser you need to play all 3 DKC again and again until until you realize the difference. You can't be this ignorant. Whatever... this is not place to argue about his inclusion.

Meh... Turbo Ganon Method work for me within 1 day (of course I had half the customs unlock beforehand). I will admit that Melee has the luxury to copy save files from one memory card to another.

I like the "8" sets project. It makes the character's community get together and discuss which sets were the best, which sets can counter other characters or their sets and how they function together. I have learned a lot from going to each character custom thread and understand why they choose one move over another. For example, most people believe there is no point to anything except for Dragon Rush for Charizard. Sadly, that is not true. Dragon Rush loses to/clash projectiles since it lack super armor. Default Sheik can needle camp Charizard with DR where Fire Blitz beat Needles. The stronger Flare Blitz is good against spot dodge or punishing recovery. You leave a powerful, lingering hitbox can mess with plenty of characters. The extra slots are for players with obnoxious builds. Both AA and Thinkamen said that several players were using the less recommended sets at EVO...

While there are issues that need to address, the more lean towards away from customs - the more players will not "waste" their time to unlocking.

Nintendo should release a master code or something.

Edit: If Logistical is the problem which is understandable (I know grinding to hard and tedious), then we should allow Palutena and Mii Fighters to use their customs still they are unlocked from the start.

While I like all forms of the Custom Moveset Project, and the discussion they promoted, I feel like a lot of things got overlooked and rushed due to the EVO time press and other things.

The majority of Smashboards (where I understand the majority of discussion took place) is American or European. That leaves out the other major player in Smash, Japan. I know for a fact enough Smashboards users know enough Japanese or have other means to communicate with Japanese players like Abadango who use(d) customs.

Similarly, I feel like there was a bit too strong of a push for "this is always better" sorts of picks. Like your Charizard example, I feel like DK got a lot of that, as did basically any character who had any move with 100% set presence (this includes defaults, though in many cases those are simply better). Similarly, there were a lot of cases (Mario and Pac-Man of note) where a particular default was NEVER available. A lot of Mario play has been built around aerials into Super Jump Punch. And there were times where Abadango would have certainly died if he'd been using Meteor Trampoline, which is in 100% of Pac-Man's sets (Of course, I don't know if he'd have taken Freaky Fruit or On-Fire Hydrant given the choice without Meteor attached). No Falco set includes default Fire Bird which has relevant distance benefits from a lot of recovery positions.

A lot of these sorts of things make me really hope that even while the community at large makes bad decisions, Customs fans will keep the Moveset Project going (at least until/unless the need vanishes via some menu redesign on Sakurai's end).

 

[Unknownkid]

While I like all forms of the Custom Moveset Project, and the discussion they promoted, I feel like a lot of things got overlooked and rushed due to the EVO time press and other things.

The majority of Smashboards (where I understand the majority of discussion took place) is American or European. That leaves out the other major player in Smash, Japan. I know for a fact enough Smashboards users know enough Japanese or have other means to communicate with Japanese players like Abadango who use(d) customs.

Similarly, I feel like there was a bit too strong of a push for "this is always better" sorts of picks. Like your Charizard example, I feel like DK got a lot of that, as did basically any character who had any move with 100% set presence (this includes defaults, though in many cases those are simply better). Similarly, there were a lot of cases (Mario and Pac-Man of note) where a particular default was NEVER available. A lot of Mario play has been built around aerials into Super Jump Punch. And there were times where Abadango would have certainly died if he'd been using Meteor Trampoline, which is in 100% of Pac-Man's sets (Of course, I don't know if he'd have taken Freaky Fruit or On-Fire Hydrant given the choice without Meteor attached). No Falco set includes default Fire Bird which has relevant distance benefits from a lot of recovery positions.

A lot of these sorts of things make me really hope that even while the community at large makes bad decisions, Customs fans will keep the Moveset Project going (at least until/unless the need vanishes via some menu redesign on Sakurai's end).

Yeah, Custom Moveset Project (especially the EVO sets) had it flaws as you stated. It is ashamed that Japanese players like Abadango and Amsa didn't get the set they preferred for EVO. Also, multiple players lost their chance to contribute to the discussion or lack enough support to push their build (NinjaLink wanted a particular build for Greninja. However, the Greninja Community were against it). Players like Dabuz figure out glitches or tricks with other sets but it was too late to change it. It was never perfect but you have to admit it was a good start. I need to figure out how that Custom Sonic set, which Manny used to camp, got passed. If I recall correctly... Sonic mains were against Double Spring.

I agree with DK and Kong Cyclone. People don't know how to punish and throw their hands in the air like what to do. The move loses to projectiles (on startup), command grab, windbox, and multihits aerials/Counter (at the end). It basically saying come and hurt me. Yes, DK's Default UpB (both Aerial and Ground) beats Kong Cyclone. As a kirby player, it better use Inhale against Kong Cyclone rather than Jump Inhale. It does more damage when you spit and Kirbicide easy since Kong Cyclone has terrible vertical recovery. Default Swordfighter has everything he needs counter KC (Gale Strike, Counter, Multi hitting aerials).

If I am facing a Kirby that knows what he is doing, I rather use Spinning Kong than KC. Static Manny vs FOW and Esam vs Ally were good matches where the custom players switch their set between rounds since the match wasn't going into their favor.

I will admit there are moves that are appeal to be completely superior to their other options like Heavy Skull Bash, Dark Fist, and Upper Cutter (though Timmy and Triple R are showing how to use Final Cutter probably) and other moves that are inferior to their Default (Jigglypuff and MK i think).

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah, Custom Moveset Project (especially the EVO sets) had it flaws as you stated. It is ashamed that Japanese players like Abadango and Amsa didn't get the set they preferred for EVO. Also, multiple players lost their chance to contribute to the discussion or lack enough support to push their build (NinjaLink wanted a particular build for Greninja. However, the Greninja Community were against it). Players like Dabuz figure out glitches or tricks with other sets but it was too late to change it. It was never perfect but you have to admit it was a good start. I need to figure out how that Custom Sonic set, which Manny used to camp, got passed. If I recall correctly... Sonic mains were against Double Spring.

I agree with DK and Kong Cyclone. People don't know how to punish and throw their hands in the air like what to do. The move loses to projectiles (on startup), command grab, windbox, and multihits aerials/Counter (at the end). It basically saying come and hurt me. Yes, DK's Default UpB (both Aerial and Ground) beats Kong Cyclone. As a kirby player, it better use Inhale against Kong Cyclone rather than Jump Inhale. It does more damage when you spit and Kirbicide easy since Kong Cyclone has terrible vertical recovery. Default Swordfighter has everything he needs counter KC (Gale Strike, Counter, Multi hitting aerials).

If I am facing a Kirby that knows what he is doing, I rather use Spinning Kong than KC. Static Manny vs FOW and Esam vs Ally were good matches where the custom players switch their set between rounds since the match wasn't going into their favor.

I will admit there are moves that are appeal to be completely superior to their other options like Heavy Skull Bash, Dark Fist, and Upper Cutter (though Timmy and Triple R are showing how to use Final Cutter probably) and other moves that are inferior to their Default (Jigglypuff and MK i think).

The distinction in your last paragraph is universal, though. It's purely arbitrary that Sheik got one of the best custom moves in the game (and a new and good DownB to boot) while Zelda has a handful of the worst, some of the worst normals, and got an even worse downB than she had previously.

It's basically illogical to argue against customs because not everyone benefits equally.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

It's basically illogical to argue against customs because not everyone benefits equally.

Really?... Are you sure you want to stand behind this biased blanket statement?.... Ima give you a chance to take it back before you look foolish sir.

EDIT: In any case customs are a double edge sword with arguments on both sides.

 

[Raijinken]

Really?... Are you sure you want to stand behind this biased blanket statement?.... Ima give you a chance to take it back before you look foolish sir.

EDIT: In any case customs are a double edge sword with arguments on both sides.

I meant it is foolish to use the argument that "not everyone benefits equally" against it. And I'm going to stand behind that biased blanket statement, yes, since inequality is a widespread state in any asymmetrically designed game. If the presence of such inequality simply encourages you to discriminate based on it, don't let me stop you. I just think it's a silly excuse.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

I meant it is foolish to use the argument that "not everyone benefits equally" against it. And I'm going to stand behind that biased blanket statement, yes, since inequality is a widespread state in any asymmetrically designed game. If the presence of such inequality simply encourages you to discriminate based on it, don't let me stop you. I just think it's a silly excuse.

I apologize sir I believe I misread your message to mean the opposite. I sincerely retract my former statement and hope that you will forgive my foolish fopa.

Equality is an impossible standard in any fighting game. If you want equality than we should all play as Mario.

 

[SoniCraft]

Well guys another patch has officially dropped. Hopefully we hear word of custom moves being "fixed", "balanced", whatever you wanna call it.

 

[DunnoBro]

The pika stun infinite doesn't work anymore, another jolt just fizzles if they're in or coming out of stun.

HSB is still dumb though. And it's not like the custom jolt doesn't still set-up for it, either.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Well with tournament mode allowing customs online (dispite also slowing badges ) the MU experience argument kinda weakens. Now we can practice against popular custom sets online.

 

[DunnoBro]

Not really, unless people not using equipment becomes commonplace. Can't really prevent it with the system in place

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Not really, unless people not using equipment becomes commonplace. Can't really prevent it with the system in place

Yea but you still get to see it in action. I admit it's definantly not a fair fight but I was surprised to see a few customs I had never seen before used well against me. It IS a step forward though a small one. Unfortunately with its inclusion of badges people on the fence may play against people with customs for the first time and decide they hate them because the badges throw off matches. So maybe this is a rather tiny step....

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It may encourage people to experiment in the lab though, which can only be good.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I think that unless you have all Wii Us with customs unlocked, They should be banned. I don't like the idea of being forced to use a bunch of sets that were created by other players.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think that unless you have all Wii Us with customs unlocked, They should be banned. I don't like the idea of being forced to use a bunch of sets that were created by other players.

Here's the actual model we've been using in general.

Out of the 80 non-default sets, we build 10 and pre-load them onto every Wii U from a 3DS (this also means unlocking is pretty much not an issue; you have to know one guy who can do this). This will cover 99% of players easily since you cover almost every reasonably likely to be used set. Then, further, people who own their own 3DS can connect and upload (overwriting the more obscure sets 9/10) on the day of tournament... which actually takes less time than building a set with customs unlocked and incidentally also takes less time than inputting a name tag and setting custom controls. The only problem comes if you have a player who has very unusual custom move preferences who doesn't own their own 3DS and doesn't have any friends who are willing to share and is further not in a region which has a sufficiently prepared TOing staff to just have the 3DS on-hand ready to go. I would suggest this hypothetical problem player doesn't actually exist.

Out of all anti-custom arguments, I think the logistical one is the most easily refuted. The logistical problems have been fully solved, and in practice, there just haven't been problems at all with this stuff in areas that have legal customs. If we were going to ban stuff to save tournament time, name entry and custom controls would go before customs because it takes way more time and further adds a lot less to the game.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Here's the actual model we've been using in general.

Out of the 80 non-default sets, we build 10 and pre-load them onto every Wii U from a 3DS (this also means unlocking is pretty much not an issue; you have to know one guy who can do this). This will cover 99% of players easily since you cover almost every reasonably likely to be used set. Then, further, people who own their own 3DS can connect and upload (overwriting the more obscure sets 9/10) on the day of tournament... which actually takes less time than building a set with customs unlocked and incidentally also takes less time than inputting a name tag and setting custom controls. The only problem comes if you have a player who has very unusual custom move preferences who doesn't own their own 3DS and doesn't have any friends who are willing to share and is further not in a region which has a sufficiently prepared TOing staff to just have the 3DS on-hand ready to go. I would suggest this hypothetical problem player doesn't actually exist.

Out of all anti-custom arguments, I think the logistical one is the most easily refuted. The logistical problems have been fully solved, and in practice, there just haven't been problems at all with this stuff in areas that have legal customs. If we were going to ban stuff to save tournament time, name entry and custom controls would go before customs because it takes way more time and further adds a lot less to the game.

Is this possible in large scale tournaments without a 3ds of your own? Would the tos allow it?

 

[DeLux]

Out of all anti-custom arguments, I think the logistical one is the most easily refuted. The logistical problems have been fully solved, and in practice, there just haven't been problems at all with this stuff in areas that have legal customs. If we were going to ban stuff to save tournament time, name entry and custom controls would go before customs because it takes way more time and further adds a lot less to the game.

Banning custom controls is discriminatory towards people with disabilities such as myself and should not be banned before customs.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Is this possible in large scale tournaments without a 3ds of your own? Would the tos allow it?

Define large scale really. We don't really have problems at 60+ person events here; it would probably be harder for the TO's one 3ds to be easily passed at a 300 person event. Then again, at such a large event, surely there will be many more people there who likely own such a 3ds. If you are one of these, I must stress, very unusual players who want something specific and different from almost everyone else and further you don't own your own 3DS (to be clear, I've never met or even heard of someone who is actually in this situations; it's that rare), you might have to talk to people. I think having to talk to people in this super rare situation is worth everyone getting to play the full game.

Banning custom controls is discriminatory towards people with disabilities such as myself and should not be banned before customs.

You could just hardware mod your controller to re-arrange the buttons to the optimal configuration for you. In older traditional fighters, people did this all the time. The only things this won't let you do is turn off tap jump or re-map the c-stick, neither of which seem notably important to disabled players. Sadly, no parallel option exists for using a custom character, another reason custom characters are just a lot more important than custom controls.

 

[DeLux]

You could just hardware mod your controller to re-arrange the buttons to the optimal configuration for you. In older traditional fighters, people did this all the time. The only things this won't let you do is turn off tap jump or re-map the c-stick, neither of which seem notably important to disabled players. Sadly, no parallel option exists for using a custom character, another reason custom characters are just a lot more important than custom controls.

You could also tell handicapped people hardware mod (aka to buy electric motors for their) wheel chairs so it's not a huge deal if they have to park far away in any spot in the parking lot. But we don't because not everyone has access to that option since it's an equity issue.

This notion you're suggesting seems particularly regressive when the ingame option is there to not make the game inaccessible. Thankfully you aren't a TO making decisions if that's how you feel about it. Equity has to trump competitive merit for the health of the game for obvious reasons.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Don't nitpick.

AA suggested that "customs take so much time" is a bad argument because we already have many practices that take waaaaaaay longer than transferring customs.

 

[DeLux]

Don't nitpick.

AA suggested that "customs take so much time" is a bad argument because we already have many practices that take waaaaaaay longer than transferring customs.

This isn't nitpicking.

Obviously I prefer custom legal to play with, but without custom controls I would not be able to play at even a proficient level at the game regardless of whatever the ruleset. I can still play at a proficient level with customs banned with custom controls.

Of course I'm not going to back down on this issue because equity and accessibility trumps whatever competitive merit argument is being made assuming logistic concerns.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

This isn't nitpicking.

Obviously I prefer custom legal to play with, but without custom controls I would not be able to play at even a proficient level at the game regardless of whatever the ruleset. I can still play at a proficient level with customs banned with custom controls.

Of course I'm not going to back down on this issue because equity and accessibility trumps whatever competitive merit argument is being made assuming logistic concerns.

See that there's what we call an opinion folks. Lots a people have 'em. Lol

 

[jet56]

*scrolling down the page* so, uh, this debate class?

tbh, i couldn't care if there were customs allowed or not. but customs has created two different metas more or less, so its all a matter of whether we want two separate meta games or one meta game. and im guessing 2 of the main reasons people are against customs are:

1. they have to take the time to keep up with all the different custom moves, which they don't want to do.
2. only a handful of customs in their opinion are particularly useful or op, so it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the cast or players.

and another off hand reason ( which probably doesn't represent a large amount of the playerbase against customs)

their characters custom sucks, so they don't want customs allowed.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The second point should be more like "only a handful of customs are particularly useful, so they don't want to deal with them, despite how (un)beatable they actually are"

 

[jet56]

haha perhaps, i just wanted to put the real thing thats going on in the back of some players minds. hiding your real reasons behind reasoning and fancy arguments isnt gonna help anyone. no offense to anyone here.

 

[blackghost]

*scrolling down the page* so, uh, this debate class?

tbh, i couldn't care if there were customs allowed or not. but customs has created two different metas more or less, so its all a matter of whether we want two separate meta games or one meta game. and im guessing 2 of the main reasons people are against customs are:

1. they have to take the time to keep up with all the different custom moves, which they don't want to do.
2. only a handful of customs in their opinion are particularly useful or op, so it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the cast or players.

and another off hand reason ( which probably doesn't represent a large amount of the playerbase against customs)

their characters custom sucks, so they don't want customs allowed.

noe of them are strong areguments
1. so any obscure character should be banned because i don't know what it does? If i went aginast a swordfighter or a zelda i would have no clue what it does nor have I ever practiced agianst one.
2. only a few default specials are particularly amazing but people are apparently ok with that. needles bouncing fish, pocket, lasers, shine,luigi tornado, cape,
the last reason is bs and everyone knows it.

 

[Ansou]

There are some arguments against customs that I want to address here.

Saying that "they weren't a problem at EVO" is not a good enough reason to change the ruleset. Being "not jank" doesn't mean being good.

So the game starts with customs turned off. Why would we press that customs button? Because it adds more content to the game. Assuming that customs aren't "win buttons" or extremely spammable with high rewards (I'll come to this later), this will inevitably make the game deeper and even more fun. If we have the possibility to have more content, we take it unless it seems broken (like equipments and some stages). We allow DLC characters and a DLC stage which weren't even in the game from the start and cost money on top of that. Why? It's not because they make the game more balanced, it's because we want that extra content! Customs making the game more balanced is just a statistical side effect.

Some players have a hard time practising with customs due to their regions having them banned.

I can agree that this is indeed a problem, but I don't think that disabling customs is the best solution. The best way to go about this would obviously be to convince them to enable customs instead of having their own, less deep meta. This is why we're having this discussion anyway. Every region has the power to change their rules. If it's for the better, why wouldn't they do it?

Custom moves aren't getting much balancing attention from the developer team.

This is kind of related to the previous argument. We have to convince them that custom moves are actually RELEVANT. If the community doesn't seem to use them, why should they further balance them? From my understanding, the dev team mostly looks at online matched games as well as the japanese scene when balancing. For Glory is obviously their own fault for disabling customs, but if they fix their broken new tournament mode so that we can have 1v1 and customs without equipment I think that could be used instead of For Glory. If the japanese scene enables customs or not is up to their stubbornness.

Jank!

This has already been answered by many. Custom moves are NOT extremely spammable win buttons with high rewards. Did Esam get many kills from HSB? Yeah. Did Zero and Mr. R get many kills from Bouncing Fish? Yeah.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Now that there have been word that Pikachu's Neutral B custom no longer causes infinites (meaning no longer an easy set-up for HSB), can we really say that customs are still broken? Well, customs still have Falcon's custom Down-B infinite but it's highly situational like Default Peach's infinite.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Now that there have been word that Pikachu's Neutral B custom no longer causes infinites (meaning no longer an easy set-up for HSB), can we really say that customs are still broken? Well, customs still have Falcon's custom Down-B infinite but it's highly situational like Default Peach's infinite.

How is it no longer an easy set-up for HSB?

 

[Jiggly]

How is it no longer an easy set-up for HSB?

I would just say it's not as easy, to pull off HSB you need to be close, and often times using twave in neutral doesnt bring you close enough. Being able to chain them gave you the ability to keep them in place, while allowing you to move forawrd. Now since you cant chain them, you have to be close when you use twave to pull off a HSB.

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

Here's an interesting argument for customs:
Say a fairly well-known player loses to being active against some unknown person using customs, and the well-known player lost simply because they didn't know how to deal with customs appropriately.

Now who's fault is it that customs costed him the match: the person who didn't study up on customs, or the person that used them?

EDIT: Grammar check

 

[jet56]

noe of them are strong areguments
1. so any obscure character should be banned because i don't know what it does? If i went aginast a swordfighter or a zelda i would have no clue what it does nor have I ever practiced agianst one.
2. only a few default specials are particularly amazing but people are apparently ok with that. needles bouncing fish, pocket, lasers, shine,luigi tornado, cape,
the last reason is bs and everyone knows it.

yep, that's why i put the arguments bluntly, without any fluffy logic or words or reasoning, because that is what it boils down to. however their are arguments against customs. or rather, inserting it into competitive play (mainly offline tournaments, which is the biggest thing.) customs are so different and there are so many, that its a different game from non customs entirely, which would create two separate metas. and the people against putting customs in competitive play are worried (and for good reason), that it would create a split in the fanbase, which would not be healthy for the competitive scene. not to mention the amount of time it would take to adjust, and for tournament sponsors to host both custom and noncustom tournaments. if a tournament only had a custom or noncustom tournament, but not the other available, people would B**** about it, and would give of the impression of a favortisim towards one or the other (not saying thats what they are doing, but people often don't look at things to deeply.) i think that is the main reason why there is a fear of starting to allow customs into large scale competitive play. not to mention, even at evo, customs didn't make a huge impact, which interesting enough, helps both sides in their argument. on one hand, the fact that customs didn't largely effect the meta might mean that doing customs only tournaments wouldn't impact the meta much at all. on the other, if it doesn't change the meta much, why have a customs tournament in the first place?

 

[Jiggly]

Here's an interesting argument for customs:
Say a fairly well-known player loses to being active against some unknown person using customs, and the well-known player lost simply because they didn't know how to deal with customs appropriately.

Now who's fault is it that customs costed him the match: the person who didn't study up on customs, or the person that used them?

EDIT: Grammar check

That's a what if statement, that hasn't occured yet. Now, this far down the road with customs, I'm pretty sure bigger players are making sure not to have unfamiliarity. Also, customs only change specials, which often times don't break combos or mindgames or a player's skill. The better player should still do better. This is an argument that has no basis, therefore should not be an argument

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

That's a what if statement, that hasn't occured yet. Now, this far down the road with customs, I'm pretty sure bigger players are making sure not to have unfamiliarity. Also, customs only change specials, which often times don't break combos or mindgames or a player's skill. The better player should still do better. This is an argument that has no basis, therefore should not be an argument

I never really implied that the more well-known player was better, just well-known. Also, unfamiliarity with a matchup due to customs could actually make a pretty big outcome, and could change mindgames, combos, etc. And yes, afaik, the what if statement hasn't really occured yet, it was just a scenario to spark a debate, not really my end-all be-all stance on the current customs meta, as I never gave an actual answer on what I think.

 

[Magik0722]

That's a what if statement, that hasn't occured yet. Now, this far down the road with customs, I'm pretty sure bigger players are making sure not to have unfamiliarity. Also, customs only change specials, which often times don't break combos or mindgames or a player's skill. The better player should still do better. This is an argument that has no basis, therefore should not be an argument

What if statements are perfectly okay when questioning rulesets, besides what he mentioned doesnt seem outside the realm of possibility. You're also missing his point, its not that the player has to be top tier, but he is trying to reassign the blame people are putting on customs due to some players ignorance on them.

 

[blackghost]

I never really implied that the more well-known player was better, just well-known. Also, unfamiliarity with a matchup due to customs could actually make a pretty big outcome, and could change mindgames, combos, etc. And yes, afaik, the what if statement hasn't really occured yet, it was just a scenario to spark a debate, not really my end-all be-all stance on the current customs meta, as I never gave an actual answer on what I think.

instead unfamiliar custom insert "character". thats what i was originally saying. why is custom move unfamiliarity so different form character unfamiliarity? no one has any good response when i ask them that.

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

instead unfamiliar custom insert "character". thats what i was originally saying. why is custom move unfamiliarity so different form character unfamiliarity? no one has any good response when i ask them that.

They create entirely different situations for players, thus causing unfamiliarity with certain moves and how to deal with them. Sure, the characters are largely the same at their core, but customs could undeniably create brand new situations that some people don't know how to deal with due to their ignorance.