What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[blackghost]

They create entirely different situations for players, thus causing unfamiliarity with certain moves and how to deal with them. Sure, the characters are largely the same at their core, but customs could undeniably create brand new situations that some people don't know how to deal with due to their ignorance.

explain how that is different from character you've never seen. like this past weekend mewtwo king and zero were clueless about ryu. they looked surprised at his damage, combos, and focus and true shoryuken was messing them up due to lack of matchup knowledge. why is that different form lack of custom matchup? they go home, hit the lab, learn and improve. just like with customs. don't see a difference.

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

explain how that is different from character you've never seen. like this past weekend mewtwo king and zero were clueless about ryu. they looked surprised at his damage, combos, and focus and true shoryuken was messing them up due to lack of matchup knowledge. why is that different form lack of custom matchup? they go home, hit the lab, learn and improve. just like with customs. don't see a difference.

Oh, I misunderstood you, my bad. But yeah, my point still stands, you can lab the stuff, but that doesn't stop others from being totally ignorant towards them. And even if you do lab it, situations can still end up being drastically different regardless of whether you know how to deal with of or not.

 

[jet56]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_results_august/
now, this may be the tier list, but its with customs off. he says up top that the customs on tier list didn't garner 100 votes, and didn't have enough interest by the players. so players aren't really interested in the customs meta. which is where i stand on it. not for it or against it, but the reason it hasn't effected play that much or that it really hasn't had a big push is that people don't care. maybe thats why everyone does mind being customs on tourneys, because it doesn't garner enough of their attention to pay that much attention. how i see it? customs don't effect the meta enough to create two separate metas. since most of the customs don't effect character play that much, and most characters play with a 1111 or have one different custom, you have to change your playstyle A LITTLE. and you can learn that in one match easily. so, i think customs are fine, because they will hardly make a splash at all. this is exactly what happened at evo. and if customs didn't ever hit the meta, not enough people would care.

 

[Sodo]

Oh, I misunderstood you, my bad. But yeah, my point still stands, you can lab the stuff, but that doesn't stop others from being totally ignorant towards them. And even if you do lab it, situations can still end up being drastically different regardless of whether you know how to deal with of or not.

I don't understand your point... that's how metagames change. Why should ignorance preclude the metagame from advancing?

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

I don't understand your point... that's how metagames change. Why should ignorance preclude the metagame from advancing?

It doesn't IMO, I was just trying to make a point that ignorance towards customs could affect what people think of it. Not whether it's actually harmful to the meta or not.

 

[blackghost]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...hbros_monthly_voted_tier_list_results_august/
now, this may be the tier list, but its with customs off. he says up top that the customs on tier list didn't garner 100 votes, and didn't have enough interest by the players. so players aren't really interested in the customs meta. which is where i stand on it. not for it or against it, but the reason it hasn't effected play that much or that it really hasn't had a big push is that people don't care. maybe thats why everyone does mind being customs on tourneys, because it doesn't garner enough of their attention to pay that much attention. how i see it? customs don't effect the meta enough to create two separate metas. since most of the customs don't effect character play that much, and most characters play with a 1111 or have one different custom, you have to change your playstyle A LITTLE. and you can learn that in one match easily. so, i think customs are fine, because they will hardly make a splash at all. this is exactly what happened at evo. and if customs didn't ever hit the meta, not enough people would care.

the issue with what youre saying is when customs were at evo if they had made a huge splash the cpmmunity would have recoiled away harder. As it is players are being allowed to hide behind execuses aobut why moves should be gone. but i'm losing faith in this community to operate logically it started with apex and its rules and continues after evo despite nothing "janky" happening. I talk to players who dont even kno what their custom moves on thier mains are. ignorance is leading this community in a way i'e never seen before in any other compeitive game i've been a part of.

 

[erico9001]

I think people who are against customs are worried about:
1) "jank"
2) time taken to learn them
3) logistics
4) whatever authorities have said (ie. following).

My responses:
1) Even before we started seriously considering customs, we had a 'dealing with jank' thread here on Smashboards. What is jank? Well, we've always sort of defined jank by what we consider to be a strategy that exists outside our subjective realm of how Smash should be played. When this game first came out, we had many people thinking that projectiles were jank. That went away, mostly. Now people still consider Mii brawler, Sheik, Luigi D-throws, and Ness B-throw to be jank. If something kills somebody earlier than they expected, like Roy's F-smash, suddenly that's jank. It exists with and without customs. Generally, the word jank implies that whatever the word is used for should not be in the game. Players use the word jank when they want to pick and choose what strategies are the good ways to play smash bros.

Honestly, we haven't had results to show that any sort of custom move is 'jank' enough to be banned. The players at evo were able to win against the custom moves. Actually, this is evidence that customs moves are not 'jank.' That being said, just like people who can't figure out how to deal with Link's projectiles, customs will still be called jank by people who are beaten by them, and can't accept it was their own fault.

2) Time taken to learn... well there is some truth to this. However, it's a very temporary issue. I mean, think about how many moves and stats we know for each character. Aerials (5 moves), smash attacks (3), tilts/jab (4), specials (4), run speeds, air speeds, jump heights, etc... Custom moves are not nearly as hard to learn, because they are already similar to the specials in the game. You won't be seeing most of the custom moves anyways. Then, over time, the issue of knowledge lessens a lot. If we had customs legal from the beginning, we would all already know all of them, or at least the important ones.

Also, you only need your main's customs to participate in customs matches. Actually, you don't need any, but that's sort of besides the point. Tired of seeing people say 'Oh, but I need to unlock all customs!' No... you don't.

3) Logistically, customs work fine. Tournament time is only slightly increased if using the custom moveset project. All you need is a guy who has them on his 3ds to load onto any Wii U that needs it before the tournament. Loading them goes fairly fast if you use the quick button to place and replace all customs. As time goes on, Wii U's will need to have customs loaded less and less, due to Wii U's being reused. As for having a person who has them on his 3ds, there will be more of those over time. If you don't have a person in your local community, somebody can use an action replay power save to save time if he wants. All pretty easy.

4) The followers. This annoys me no matter what the subject is (outside of Smash).
Omni and that European Smash TO both have placed forward unsound arguments. Their opinions were posted in a one-sided manner on the front page of Smashboards. I think a lot of people just read the opening posts but no comments, leaving them with none of the rebuttals or counterpoints.

As for the high level players at EVO who are supposedly against customs (haven't really heard from a lot of them though), they probably would be against customs, for they care about movesets more than characters and want to protect themselves from having to face more viable characters (ie. more competition).

So far, to the majority of competitive players, the customs debate has not been a debate. How can we fix this?

 

[jet56]

i agree with everything erico has said above. if customs ever do become a norm, what will probably happen is people will not like it, then realize it doesn't change that much in terms of the meta game, then it will become standard. besides, most players play with most of the default set, and only change one to two things. it won't be that difficult to adjust. and i play a character who has NO useful customs, and i still think customs are fine. (little mac)

 

[Infinite901]

and i play a character who has NO useful customs, and i still think customs are fine.

Yeah, my main is often cited as one of the few characters that downgrade in customs, but I don't care, I'll still support customs. (Besides, Leaping Rest is underrated)

 

[Zorcey]

I think people who are against customs are worried about:
1) "jank"
2) time taken to learn them
3) logistics
4) whatever authorities have said (ie. following).

My responses:
1) Even before we started seriously considering customs, we had a 'dealing with jank' thread here on Smashboards. What is jank? Well, we've always sort of defined jank by what we consider to be a strategy that exists outside our subjective realm of how Smash should be played. When this game first came out, we had many people thinking that projectiles were jank. That went away, mostly. Now people still consider Mii brawler, Sheik, Luigi D-throws, and Ness B-throw to be jank. If something kills somebody earlier than they expected, like Roy's F-smash, suddenly that's jank. It exists with and without customs. Generally, the word jank implies that whatever the word is used for should not be in the game. Players use the word jank when they want to pick and choose what strategies are the good ways to play smash bros.

Honestly, we haven't had results to show that any sort of custom move is 'jank' enough to be banned. The players at evo were able to win against the custom moves. Actually, this is evidence that customs moves are not 'jank.' That being said, just like people who can't figure out how to deal with Link's projectiles, customs will still be called jank by people who are beaten by them, and can't accept it was their own fault.

2) Time taken to learn... well there is some truth to this. However, it's a very temporary issue. I mean, think about how many moves and stats we know for each character. Aerials (5 moves), smash attacks (3), tilts/jab (4), specials (4), run speeds, air speeds, jump heights, etc... Custom moves are not nearly as hard to learn, because they are already similar to the specials in the game. You won't be seeing most of the custom moves anyways. Then, over time, the issue of knowledge lessens a lot. If we had customs legal from the beginning, we would all already know all of them, or at least the important ones.

Also, you only need your main's customs to participate in customs matches. Actually, you don't need any, but that's sort of besides the point. Tired of seeing people say 'Oh, but I need to unlock all customs!' No... you don't.

3) Logistically, customs work fine. Tournament time is only slightly increased if using the custom moveset project. All you need is a guy who has them on his 3ds to load onto any Wii U that needs it before the tournament. Loading them goes fairly fast if you use the quick button to place and replace all customs. As time goes on, Wii U's will need to have customs loaded less and less, due to Wii U's being reused. As for having a person who has them on his 3ds, there will be more of those over time. If you don't have a person in your local community, somebody can use an action replay power save to save time if he wants. All pretty easy.

4) The followers. This annoys me no matter what the subject is (outside of Smash).
Omni and that European Smash TO both have placed forward unsound arguments. Their opinions were posted in a one-sided manner on the front page of Smashboards. I think a lot of people just read the opening posts but no comments, leaving them with none of the rebuttals or counterpoints.

As for the high level players at EVO who are supposedly against customs (haven't really heard from a lot of them though), they probably would be against customs, for they care about movesets more than characters and want to protect themselves from having to face more viable characters (ie. more competition).

So far, to the majority of competitive players, the customs debate has not been a debate. How can we fix this?

I believe they call this: "hitting the nail on the head." Excellent post. As we spend more and more time with this game, we begin to see there is no reason to ban custom moves - apart from a few top players being afraid of an expanded number of threats.

 

[manrangan]

I think that customs should be handled differently than the way they are. Instead of having multiple sets, I think that we should try to focus more on the "balancing" aspect that so many people say that customs offer. For characters that are already top tier, they should just have their default moveset, but characters who struggle in a non-customs environment should get a custom set that's best for them. This way we can balance the cast in our own little way, but not strengthen characters who don't deserve it, and if we're in absolute control of customs we'd be able to not give some of the more problematic customs to characters like DK and Villager.
By this, I mean to think of Ampharos' customs project, but with only one set allowed for characters. Good characters would get 1-1-1-1, and characters who struggle without customs like Palutena would get 2-3-1-2 or whatever. (I just made that number up, haven't messed with customs Palutena in forever.) As for characters like DK or Villager, they could get sets that don't include things like exploding balloon/trip seed and Wind Kong Cyclone or whatever it's called. I do believe customs can help balance, as it gives characters like Palutena, Bowser, and Dr. Mario more strengths to compete in the metagame, but we get enough balance patches as is, and it creates too much division and strain in the community when the game hasn't been out for a year, we're still getting new characters and balance patches every month or few weeks.
I think that customs should be introduced later on in this form when the game's older, the balance patches stop coming in so often, and we have a clear understanding of the balance and tiers of the roster.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

To provide a counterexample to the "top players don't like customs" argument, Mew2King has said recently that he's not interested in a Smash 4 meta without customs. Without them, there are no characters he actually really liked, but with them I believe he said he'd be interested in Charizard and Palutena. Thoughts?

 

[One Handed Sword]

Im all for customs but the difficulty to unlock them is beyond tedious and the person behind the fact you can get duped moves is a moron and should get his pay cut by 10%. Really daft and cruel idea to make me have to grind for moves.

 

[Infinite901]

To provide a counterexample to the "top players don't like customs" argument, Mew2King has said recently that he's not interested in a Smash 4 meta without customs. Without them, there are no characters he actually really liked, but with them I believe he said he'd be interested in Charizard and Palutena. Thoughts?

Too bad he's not interested in Smash 4 until it stops getting patches. It'll be a while before m2k really gets into Smash4, if at all.

 

[Terotrous]

So, here's the question to anyone who opposes customs:

Why do you want to exclude me from participating in tournaments or the community?

I play 1111 Ness, 2211 Mac, 2122 Ganon, 2321 WFT, 2312 Palutena, and 312X Duck Hunt.

I don't believe that anyone here maliciously hates me or actively, intentionally is trying to prevent me from entering in tournaments.

But I'm asking you to recognize the unavoidable fact that this is the exact consequence of banning my characters.

I mean, I guess I could enter a customs-banned tourney as a second class citizen, go only 1111 Ness, and get pooped on by Rosalinas all day, and pretend that this is somehow not discriminatory or unfair at all. Or I could play 1111 WFT or Palutena, who are aren't even the same character archetype, and pretend that there is no difference. But all that would require a suspension of disbelief that I unfortunately lack.

Is Custom Mac really that different from regular Mac? I've seen you play custom Mac, and he still pretty much looks like the same character to me. Ground game still good, recovery still bad. Obviously, UpB remains default so you don't lose UpB OOS, and I don't see the other moves having too much use at neutral either way. I definitely think you could still play him in Customs Off, in fact he might actually do a little better by way of other characters losing more than he does.

Ganon and Duck Hunt are also definitely still playable in Customs off. Different, sure, but they're still plenty viable. It's mostly just WFT and Palutena who get screwed.


Actually, I think that brings up a useful point. Which characters get totally screwed if Customs are turned off? This doesn't just mean losing options, I mean going from a pretty viable character to a terrible character.

 

[verbatim]

Too bad he's not interested in Smash 4 until it stops getting patches. It'll be a while before m2k really gets into Smash4, if at all.

Palutena's Lightweight getting tweaked is a possibility, but I don't think he realistically has to worry about Charizard getting nerfed.

 

[S_B]

I don't see much of an argument for OR against customs at this point.

Did camping villager or airbender kong take Evo? Not even CLOSE... If customs were really a problem to fight against, wouldn't we have seen SOME kind of upset in Evo?

They make a few characters slightly more viable, but they also provide some better options for characters who are already high tier.

But customs don't very much shake up the meta, either. Unless the custom tier list looked WILDLY different (like Samus and Bowser were A-tiers or something...), then there's no point in crying over customs.

So while there's no real reason to turn them off, I also don't see that much reason to turn them on, either. It'd still be better with them ON, I feel, but I think that the real hope for balancing this game will be from balance patches (which sadly don't usually touch customs).

 

[Terotrous]

Did camping villager or airbender kong take Evo? Not even CLOSE... If customs were really a problem to fight against, wouldn't we have seen SOME kind of upset in Evo?

Uhh, did you miss the fact that there were 3 Villagers in top 32 at EVO? A camping Sonic also got 9th and a HSB Pikachu got 7th. Those are all "coming close" to winning EVO.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Uhh, did you miss the fact that there were 3 Villagers in top 32 at EVO? A camping Sonic also got 9th and a HSB Pikachu got 7th. Those are all "coming close" to winning EVO.

Plus Esam playing rather ****ty compared to earlier customs on tournaments he participated in.

 

[verbatim]

Uhh, did you miss the fact that there were 3 Villagers in top 32 at EVO? A camping Sonic also got 9th and a HSB Pikachu got 7th. Those are all "coming close" to winning EVO.

Esam placed better at CEO, which had customs off. All three villagers in the top 32, MJG, SS, and CaptainAwesum, rank well in their respective regions regardless of customs. CaptainAwesum, probably the most cited examlpe, also plays defensively with or without customs, something StaticManny does situationally.

I really dislike these arguments because it creates a catch-22 mentality against customs, if Esam/MJG (good, offensive players who place well) won EVO people would be calling their moves provably broken. If no custom characters made it into the top 32 they would be saying that they shouldn't be there because they didn't have any impact and aren't worth the effort of adding.

I honestly think that this EVO was the best showing pro custom players could have asked for. John Numbers made top 32 with Wii Fit Trainer, as did Dappuffster with Mii Brawler (who should honestly be able to use 1122 Mii Brawler in custom off tours, but that's another argument) because they played exceptionally well with their characters in ways that they really wouldn't have been able to with customs turned off and an anti-Mii clause added. Of the top 4, customs were used in arguably the best way possible. Abadango used Wario's Speeding Bike as a mixup recovery option against Mr R., whereas Nairo switched out his neutral b for a more damage oriented option. Both of these players are amazing in any ruleset, and they both used customs not as a spammy "jank "trick, but as specific tweaks to adjust to different opponents.

 

[Infinite901]

Palutena's Lightweight getting tweaked is a possibility, but I don't think he realistically has to worry about Charizard getting nerfed.

I mean he's going to not even bother with Smash 4 until it stops getting patches altogether, just so everything will be consistent.

 

[erico9001]

Uhh, did you miss the fact that there were 3 Villagers in top 32 at EVO? A camping Sonic also got 9th and a HSB Pikachu got 7th. Those are all "coming close" to winning EVO.

Because clearly if Villagers placed highly they MUST have been ledge camping! Wrong...

Truly amazing Villager gameplay.

The person supposedly using ledge camping was CaptAwesum, and he did not deserve the **** he got from people at EVO (on page 4 he actually responds to clear misconceptions, etc). I only could find a video of him from 3 months ago, but even then, his skill was apparent, and I found the reads and decisions he made during battle pretty interesting. And that was 3 months ago! Placing so high at EVO is truly a feat. Why must people always hate defensive playstyles? By the way, he placed the worst of the 3 villagers in the top 32.

Moving on, camping Sonic is not something exclusive to customs. People find that jank regardless of whether that button is toggled at the top right of the screen. This video seems to be quite popular:

Honestly, if you keep watching rather than turn it off after the first game, it was a lot more interesting when customs were on... and the first match was probably a lot of fun for the two sonic players. After then... *yawn.* The commentators keep blaming customs though. Later, there's this hilarious comment: "It's super unlikely to see a vanilla character win EVO."

To anybody that thinks customs are jank, I suggest you watch this video:

^covers heavy skull bash, wind kong, and much more!

 

[S_B]

Uhh, did you miss the fact that there were 3 Villagers in top 32 at EVO? A camping Sonic also got 9th and a HSB Pikachu got 7th. Those are all "coming close" to winning EVO.

Were all three villagers ledge camping the entire match, trying to run out the clock?

I'm talking about the "jank" that people were insisting customs would bring into the game, not just any character who was using customs in general.

Also, I pointed out that customs give high tier characters like Pikachu some pretty damn good options. It also gives Rosa that goddamn ranged star bit attack (like she needs a way to put pressure on people from range, right?).

But no, camping villager and airbender kong didn't come close to winning Evo, not unless one of them did something like send ZeRo to the losers bracket.

 

[MCGChile]

Hi to everyone, before posting I want to introduce myself. I’m MCG|SoulSyS and I run a competitive team in Antofagasta, Chile and my only motivation was to discover a talented player (or players) to represent my city and country in big tournaments. I’m running tournaments competitively since 2009 in brawl era and really wanted to continue this initiative in Smash 4. I bought the new smash bundle since day 1, wii u, game capture, pc, etc to promote my local competitive scene and is slowly growing up, 1 of our crew mates got 7th in the latest National Tournament in Valparaiso (TO’s are from Santiago de Chile) and that’s a big reward for all of our determination.

In my personal opinion, custom are for me what makes this game unique. I remember with my friends dreamed that something like this could be possible, a chance to improve and change a character’s special moves and have different play style like UMVC3 assistance options or like choosing an Ultra Move in SSFIV AE and then it happened! The chance to do that it’s here with Smash 4. Also I had read post here and in my country about top players winning without custom, then assuming it means custom are less important or less competitive. My point of view about it is that top players have had more tournament experience with custom OFF than ON, so their experience with default move build clearly overrun their custom move build or even not training at all a custom move build. EVO was the only big important tournament with customs ON so I think it’s not fair stating customs were not that important for top 8, I can say that Nairo with custom ZSS laser (1-2-1-1) was taking control step by step against Zero… Maybe I could say he had less Tournament experience (or top player match up) with that custom build, same with abandango’s customized Wario. What I want to say is if TOs ban custom moves from big tournaments at this moment we would lose critical metagame experience and will never get that time back, if TO’s decide using custom later on. Smash 4 is not even a year old and there’s people who state “negative” things as facts about customs, a lot of thing can happen in 1 year more just take a look at melee or brawl evolution through the years, if we ban custom we would lose a lot of information, time that we would lose forever, I think TO’s should support custom in every single tournament for mass data and information entries (so sakurai would know what moves are having troubles, glitching, overpowered, etc) or else just ban them definitively. Please give Custom a chance, but a real one, support from big tournament TOs. I hope new meta can born from customs, I really feel it can.

I apologize for my low English skills, it’s been a while since I don’t speak or write in this lang :S

 

[Powerman293]

Hello everybody! I'm Powerman293, a new member. This is my first post, since I've been lurking around for awhile but I've joined the site to join the discussion and share my opinion.

I am in love with the idea of custom moves. Being able to pick a set up for a match really deepens the meta game, in my mind. It allows many new ways to play characters and what each player needs to make decisions about regarding them. If I'm on this stage against this character, what custom gives me the approach I need and what do I need to do to prevent my opponent from fully taking advantage of me based on my and their specials/customs. Customs, I feel , could bring Smash 4 out of Melee's competitive shadow by making it about a completely different game all together.

My opinion on a Customs meta is that it is a no-go mainly due to 1 reason. The DLC characters don't have Customs That's not fair. I know the Smash community does not care about what most other fighting game fans care about, but this puts these characters at lower level that I do not think would be fair to the mains of those characters. I know you could say that "Low tier characters have less options then high tiers, so why not ban high tiers? It's the same argument right?" But that is from a design perspective. Mewtwo, Roy, Ryu and Lucas are at a severe disadvantage not by design, but by a lack of features present for everyone else on the core roster. I'm really sorry that I am all for a vanilla Smash 4, but unless Sakurai announces that he's putting DLC character customs up for sale, I can't be for it.

 

[Zorcey]

Hello everybody! I'm Powerman293, a new member. This is my first post, since I've been lurking around for awhile but I've joined the site to join the discussion and share my opinion.

I am in love with the idea of custom moves. Being able to pick a set up for a match really deepens the meta game, in my mind. It allows many new ways to play characters and what each player needs to make decisions about regarding them. If I'm on this stage against this character, what custom gives me the approach I need and what do I need to do to prevent my opponent from fully taking advantage of me based on my and their specials/customs. Customs, I feel , could bring Smash 4 out of Melee's competitive shadow by making it about a completely different game all together.

My opinion on a Customs meta is that it is a no-go mainly due to 1 reason. The DLC characters don't have Customs That's not fair. I know the Smash community does not care about what most other fighting game fans care about, but this puts these characters at lower level that I do not think would be fair to the mains of those characters. I know you could say that "Low tier characters have less options then high tiers, so why not ban high tiers? It's the same argument right?" But that is from a design perspective. Mewtwo, Roy, Ryu and Lucas are at a severe disadvantage not by design, but by a lack of features present for everyone else on the core roster. I'm really sorry that I am all for a vanilla Smash 4, but unless Sakurai announces that he's putting DLC character customs up for sale, I can't be for it.

This is silly. DLC characters are not the only ones who don't benefit from custom moves, there are several characters who have customs that may as well not be there at all - they're useless. Legalizing customs was never a movement for total equality, if we wanted that we would all play Sheik. Making customs legal simply expands the number of viable characters for competitive play. Nothing more.

 

[Terotrous]

One thing I'm noticing here is a lot of disconnect between "what the concept of custom moves could potentially bring to Smash Bros" and "what custom moves actually do for the current metagame".

I totally agree that if custom moves were implemented well, with each move choice possessing smart tradeoffs and having some kind of viability, it would be a completely amazing system and there's no question that I would support it. The problem is that the implementation of Custom moves we got is much more half-baked. For at least 90% of moves, there is a single choice that is clearly the best one, effectively removing the "custom" component of custom moves. Instead, it's really more like "remixed movesets", where each character still possesses one set of specials, just with a few (usually crazy) changes, kind of like Street Fighter 4's Omega mode.

Custom moves do allow more characters to be useful, but they also make a number of questionable changes to the core gameplay, such as by heavily skewing risk / reward and centralizing characters more around specific moves. The core debate around customs comes down to whether you prefer more traditional gameplay or a larger roster.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

One thing I'm noticing here is a lot of disconnect between "what the concept of custom moves could potentially bring to Smash Bros" and "what custom moves actually do for the current metagame".

I totally agree that if custom moves were implemented well, with each move choice possessing smart tradeoffs and having some kind of viability, it would be a completely amazing system and there's no question that I would support it. The problem is that the implementation of Custom moves we got is much more half-baked. For at least 90% of moves, there is a single choice that is clearly the best one, effectively removing the "custom" component of custom moves. Instead, it's really more like "remixed movesets", where each character still possesses one set of specials, just with a few (usually crazy) changes, kind of like Street Fighter 4's Omega mode.

Custom moves do allow more characters to be useful, but they also make a number of questionable changes to the core gameplay, such as by heavily skewing risk / reward and centralizing characters more around specific moves. The core debate around customs comes down to whether you prefer more traditional gameplay or a larger roster.

I agree, that's why I think Customs on with banning certain customs should be preferred.
Never mind that being an organisational nightmare.

 

[blackghost]

One thing I'm noticing here is a lot of disconnect between "what the concept of custom moves could potentially bring to Smash Bros" and "what custom moves actually do for the current metagame".

I totally agree that if custom moves were implemented well, with each move choice possessing smart tradeoffs and having some kind of viability, it would be a completely amazing system and there's no question that I would support it. The problem is that the implementation of Custom moves we got is much more half-baked. For at least 90% of moves, there is a single choice that is clearly the best one, effectively removing the "custom" component of custom moves. Instead, it's really more like "remixed movesets", where each character still possesses one set of specials, just with a few (usually crazy) changes, kind of like Street Fighter 4's Omega mode.

Custom moves do allow more characters to be useful, but they also make a number of questionable changes to the core gameplay, such as by heavily skewing risk / reward and centralizing characters more around specific moves. The core debate around customs comes down to whether you prefer more traditional gameplay or a larger roster.

I don't get this argument. What exactly changes in the gameplay of smash when custom moves are on? You are gonna need dsome evidence on that claim. New options aren't "ruining smash gameplay." Evo looked like an other tournament gameplay wise. Omega mode and custom moves aren't even close to the same thing. Omega mode in street fighter decreased balance majorly. It was a mode full of silliness and clearly wasn't intended to be taken seriously. Custom moves that isn't clear if nintendo meant it to be balanced or not (judging by the custom moves that have been patched I think they intended balance). Your other claim whre "90 percent" of the roster has a clear favorite choice, that claim is already proven to be false. Outside of mii brawler most custom mves are situationally based, matchup dependent, or preference. Look at DK the three punches are choice, side b is a choice, down b is a preference. Shiek's moves are preference at needles. mario gust cape only clear upgrade. ,most characters are a preference. Look at the characters boards there's almost never a consensual set.
The last point we don't know what the moves would bring to the metagame because the community won't allow them to be found out. We can guess we can use what little we know but its a guess.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't get this argument. What exactly changes in the gameplay of smash when custom moves are on? You are gonna need dsome evidence on that claim. New options aren't "ruining smash gameplay." Evo looked like an other tournament gameplay wise. Omega mode and custom moves aren't even close to the same thing. Omega mode in street fighter decreased balance majorly. It was a mode full of silliness and clearly wasn't intended to be taken seriously. Custom moves that isn't clear if nintendo meant it to be balanced or not (judging by the custom moves that have been patched I think they intended balance).

What Omega Mode does is takes existing moves and gives them silly properties that damage the game balance. Customs clearly also does this, with things like Thunder Wave and Exploding Balloon Trip. These are already good, safe moves that should not grant huge reward, the decision to make them such extremely potent tools can really only be described as "silly".

Your other claim whre "90 percent" of the roster has a clear favorite choice, that claim is already proven to be false. Outside of mii brawler most custom mves are situationally based, matchup dependent, or preference. Look at DK the three punches are choice, side b is a choice, down b is a preference. Shiek's moves are preference at needles. mario gust cape only clear upgrade. ,most characters are a preference. Look at the characters boards there's almost never a consensual set.
The last point we don't know what the moves would bring to the metagame because the community won't allow them to be found out. We can guess we can use what little we know but its a guess.

I suppose it should be stated that there's usually either a clear choice or it doesn't matter. Like for example, with Yoshi you can use any of his 3 Side B options because regardless of what you pick it's a move you would never use anyway (and none of the custom options made that move useful).

The point that customs fail to provide meaningful differentiation still stands.

(Of course, the Mii Fighters and Palutena are exceptions. They're the only ones who really got "proper" customs).

 

[blackghost]

What Omega Mode does is takes existing moves and gives them silly properties that damage the game balance. Customs clearly also does this, with things like Thunder Wave and Exploding Balloon Trip. These are already good, safe moves that should not grant huge reward, the decision to make them such extremely potent tools can really only be described as "silly".



I suppose it should be stated that there's usually either a clear choice or it doesn't matter. Like for example, with Yoshi you can use any of his 3 Side B options because regardless of what you pick it's a move you would never use anyway (and none of the custom options made that move useful).

The point that customs fail to provide meaningful differentiation still stands.

(Of course, the Mii Fighters and Palutena are exceptions. They're the only ones who really got "proper" customs).

thunder wave is essentially zss blaster its not OP its just a different tool for pikachu to use. Extreme balloon trip was also heavily nerfed. its a trade off now for sure distanc eor safety. custom moves dont/rarely make unable/bad moves amazing or even potent. yoshi side b is an extreme example.
omega mode isn't custom moves. omega mode was never intended to be balanced and wasn't ever patched. custom moves have been and are still being touched.

 

[Terotrous]

thunder wave is essentially zss blaster its not OP its just a different tool for pikachu to use. Extreme balloon trip was also heavily nerfed. its a trade off now for sure distanc eor safety. custom moves dont/rarely make unable/bad moves amazing or even potent. yoshi side b is an extreme example.
omega mode isn't custom moves. omega mode was never intended to be balanced and wasn't ever patched. custom moves have been and are still being touched.

Thunder Wave is more mobile than ZSS blaster and doesn't need charging to get the full stun effect.

Custom Moves haven't really ever been truly patched. They got one bugfix (order tackle), one random damage adjustment (dragon rush), and a bunch of animation tweeks that the main moves also received. Once they address some glaring issues like the infinite lightweight glitch or exploding balloon trip we'll talk.

 

[Dinoman96]

Thunder Wave is more mobile than ZSS blaster and doesn't need charging to get the full stun effect.

Custom Moves haven't really ever been truly patched. They got one bugfix (order tackle), one random damage adjustment (dragon rush), and a bunch of animation tweeks that the main moves also received. Once they address some glaring issues like the infinite lightweight glitch or exploding balloon trip we'll talk.

For what its worth, the Thunder Wave infinite was patched out in the Tourney update.

 

[Zorcey]

Guys, don't try to argue that most characters do not have a particular Customs Moves set that is their best. It isn't true, and you won't get anywhere. As the Customs meta develops, this will come to light.

Of course, the notion of ideal movesets creating imbalance in the game is also ludicrous. EVO is proof of this, as has been said time and time again. Customs are not unbalanced - the top tiers remain the same.

Even if Customs did more dramatically shake up the tier list, we would still come out with more tournament worthy characters than before. I cannot fathom how anyone can think adding more viable characters to the game is a bad thing, but whatever.

 

[Terotrous]

Guys, don't try to argue that most characters do not have a particular Customs Moves set that is their best. It isn't true, and you won't get anywhere. As the Customs meta develops, this will come to light.

Of course, the notion of ideal movesets creating imbalance in the game is also ludicrous. EVO is proof of this, as has been said time and time again. Customs are not unbalanced - the top tiers remain the same.

Even if Customs did more dramatically shake up the tier list, we would still come out with more tournament worthy characters than before. I cannot fathom how anyone can think adding more viable characters to the game is a bad thing, but whatever.

Note that my post did state that the advantage of Customs is more viable characters. Unfortunately, it also results in more janky / centralized characters (not necessarily the same ones).

 

[SoniCraft]

Note that my post did state that the advantage of Customs is more viable characters. Unfortunately, it also results in more janky / centralized characters (not necessarily the same ones).

The thing with the "janky, centralized" characters is that I don't think this will be true in the future if we keep customs on. They were very centralizing when we first started using them because nobody knew how to combat them. People could spam them and get away with it, so that move was used more than usual, making it seem "janky" and "centralized". However, as time has gone on, people have learned how to fight these moves, and when people spam them, they get punished. You can see Vinnie punishing DKWill all the time in custom move fights. Or like when CaptAwesum was beaten at Evo by Larry Lurr's secondary Sheik. Seriously, if you do your research, you'll find these moves aren't that bad. That's what it comes down to, people are too lazy to get custom moves rolling.

 

[SoniCraft]

Because clearly if Villagers placed highly they MUST have been ledge camping! Wrong...

Truly amazing Villager gameplay.

The person supposedly using ledge camping was CaptAwesum, and he did not deserve the **** he got from people at EVO (on page 4 he actually responds to clear misconceptions, etc). I only could find a video of him from 3 months ago, but even then, his skill was apparent, and I found the reads and decisions he made during battle pretty interesting. And that was 3 months ago! Placing so high at EVO is truly a feat. Why must people always hate defensive playstyles? By the way, he placed the worst of the 3 villagers in the top 32.

Moving on, camping Sonic is not something exclusive to customs. People find that jank regardless of whether that button is toggled at the top right of the screen. This video seems to be quite popular:

Honestly, if you keep watching rather than turn it off after the first game, it was a lot more interesting when customs were on... and the first match was probably a lot of fun for the two sonic players. After then... *yawn.* The commentators keep blaming customs though. Later, there's this hilarious comment: "It's super unlikely to see a vanilla character win EVO."

To anybody that thinks customs are jank, I suggest you watch this video:

^covers heavy skull bash, wind kong, and much more!

Can we please get @ LiteralGrill do make an article on that last video??? Seriously, he loves making articles about people banning customs moves, but a video that makes customs not look that bad? Nahhhh, we don't need that!

 

[Terotrous]

The thing with the "janky, centralized" characters is that I don't think this will be true in the future if we keep customs on. They were very centralizing when we first started using them because nobody knew how to combat them.

If you make certain moves much stronger, particularly without giving them any drawbacks, you're going to centralize the character's neutral around those moves. That's just a logical result of playing to win, people will gravitate towards the moves that are the most advantageous.

Pikachu and Sonic are good examples of heavily centralized characters with customs on.

 

[blackghost]

If you make certain moves much stronger, particularly without giving them any drawbacks, you're going to centralize the character's neutral around those moves. That's just a logical result of playing to win, people will gravitate towards the moves that are the most advantageous.

Pikachu and Sonic are good examples of heavily centralized characters with customs on.

sonic plays the same customs on or off. he spams side b. no difference. pikachu thunder wave was nerfed. HSB isn't overcentralizing. it only will be used to punish airdodges into the ground. cant combo into it.

Thunder Wave is more mobile than ZSS blaster and doesn't need charging to get the full stun effect.

Custom Moves haven't really ever been truly patched. They got one bugfix (order tackle), one random damage adjustment (dragon rush), and a bunch of animation tweeks that the main moves also received. Once they address some glaring issues like the infinite lightweight glitch or exploding balloon trip we'll talk.

you really haven't done much research. extreme balloon trip was nerfed. the lightwieght glitch really isnt an issue. it makes palutena very predictable and easy to counter pick if shes dependent on it. Thunder wave has less range and more recovery than zss blaster. pikachu doesnt get nearly as much off it as zss does.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can we please get @ LiteralGrill do make an article on that last video??? Seriously, he loves making articles about people banning customs moves, but a video that makes customs not look that bad? Nahhhh, we don't need that!

Hi there! I loved being called out randomly over the internet, it's SO much fun! Civil conversations shouldn't happen and it'd make no sense to ask why certain stuff is being covered, that would be silly!

Now that the sarcasm is dripping so thoroughly it's leaving puddles all over the floor... (Seriously, why is it so hard to just civilly ask things or discuss stuff? :/)

I may not personally support custom moves but post Evo there was no Evo there was nothing I saw nor anything brought to my attention that was still showing support (like a video, written piece, etc) that was showing support for custom moves. I can't report on things that aren't there.

I have been going out of my way to get guest editorials written on the further support of customs post Evo even. Yeah I'm actually going out of my way even though I currently don't support them to make sure they get fair coverage. So... Your move good sir?