What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[DunnoBro]

I mean your stuff at Xanadu is nice and all, but when I've tried to use them in SFL and they just dont get it done, I feel my experience outweighs yours. You're simply better with custom can by a large margin and I'mbetter with default can. Zigzag takes away so much utility I use default can for. My opinion is that they blow, you dont have to take my word for it and I'm fine with that

Notions of superiority aside, you still were entirely unaware of it's applications. It wasn't that you didn't think they were worth it, you were just plain ignorant to them. This is why I fear confirmation bias on your and the parts of other certain players.

All that said, I still value you and their opinions on the matter.

(Though, the reason zigzag is good is because of mega gunmen. they replace the utility and neutral applications of default can while zigzag supplements the pressure game. Zigzag is actually worse than default can with default gunmen imo since his neutral game is unworkable garbage, though that's not quite relevant to my main point)

 

[WakerofWinds]

He has actually stated his reasoning for disliking customs, which basically boils down to certain custom moves being unhealthy and making the game more unbalanced. He also has the pretty common opinion that creating an effective banlist is impossible in this community because it just turns into infinite debate...also probably true.

Source? I'd love to read it.

 

[blackghost]

There is no hard tournament data that proves ANY custom move is broken or OP. There IS data that suggests shiek (one bad matchup in the game in default) is and possibly diddy kong is as well. (The character was nerfed essentially three times and results haven't changed). Anti custom players to me are either clinging to the excuse "top players don't want it" or saying they don't want to learn the matchups and they create a barrier to new entrants in the game.
To the first point when a top player gives me a logical reason why the moves should be gone I'll listen. None have that i'm aware of. Zero tried to say "customs kill the neutral" and he got wrecked. Everyone called him out aying in smash thats what good characaters do. he hasn't said anything since.
Every compleititve game from speed gaming, to heartstone, to magic, pokemon and smash all have barriers to entrants on compeitive play because thats what seperates this community form the everyday player. You want to win? better study, practice, and learn what you can exploit and learn what your opponents will attempt to exploit. Smash 4 barrier to entry is super low compared to many other games (especially card games and arena online games).
Top players dont want to have the game changed on them they either don't want ot deal with a new changing meta or they truly don't care about whats best for the game only themselves and thier placement which is understandablr but it cannot allow the game to leave its potential behind.
I've heard guys like aerolink and dapuffster may leave the game because thier characters are banned and the don't want to play shiek. DK will loved having a DK that he felt he could win with.
All i want to ask is According to the orginal post poll 25 percent are against custom moves. Does anyone have evidence about why they should be banned? And a story about getting "janked" isn't a reason.

 

[shiggy]

He also has the pretty common opinion that creating an effective banlist is impossible in this community because it just turns into infinite debate...also probably true.

This is why customs should be banned. It's the "easier" route. Ban all customs, and the community and figure out what to do with Mii's. Enabling customs will still divide the community because people will constantly argue over what customs should be legal.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

We can ban certain custom moves if we have to...characters have been banned in past tournaments and so have certain techniques (wobbling, scrooging, etc.), and even character pairings in doubles. Banning custom move wouldn't be any different. we've only had one major tourney where customs have been legal and thus far we haven't had any issues. customs should be legal because any problems that do come up can be EASILY.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

My opinion on Custom Moves is that they are neither detrimental nor beneficial to the meta game as a whole, I find that Custom Moves are just a completely separate case when it comes to fighting in a match, like having Omega forms in Ultra Street Figther IV. It changes the way you play a fighter (depending on a fighter), or just makes a move more viable as an option.

My actual only problem with the EVO Custom Moves List is that Mega Man doesn't have my preferred set of moves, which is 3312 (Shadow Blade, Danger Wrap, Rush Coil, Skull Barrier) >w>;;

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

T

My opinion on Custom Moves is that they are neither detrimental nor beneficial to the meta game as a whole, I find that Custom Moves are just a completely separate case when it comes to fighting in a match, like having Omega forms in Ultra Street Figther IV. It changes the way you play a fighter (depending on a fighter), or just makes a move more viable as an option.

My actual only problem with the EVO Custom Moves List is that Mega Man doesn't have my preferred set of moves, which is 3312 (Shadow Blade, Danger Wrap, Rush Coil, Skull Barrier) >w>;;

Did they fill all the sets in EVO? As in did they have 10 custom combinations. I think they should vote on the top 10 custom combinations and use the top ones.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

Did they fill all the sets in EVO? As in did they have 10 custom combinations. I think they should vote on the top 10 custom combinations and use the top ones.

This is the offical list I found that contains all of the EVO Custom Move Sets for every character and the thread it links back to, sufficed to say that not every possible combination is going to be usable in a Custom Set (Namely because there are 48 (I think, lol math >w>; ) possible combinations for every character, and you're only able to store 11 at most, counting the default character with customs turned off as one.)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8jSgl7JtfAGmDovuXoPiR9i3ZjpuO6K2ymvfKZRKws/edit

I would like the ability just to bring my 3DS with the custom characters I want to use into a tournament, have them verified by officials, and then uploaded into the Wii U that I would be using during that bracket before the tournament takes place. Sure it's somewhat time consuming, but not every good combination of moves is going to be there without it.

 

[Teh Sandwich]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the vanilla version. Customs just add way too much cluster and confusion. That and the way it's set up; we can't use everyone's preferred setups. That puts players who don't post on smashboards at a huge disadvantage. Unlocking customs sucks so bad.. You can't practice them online..
Customs are casual, and that's that.
I'm very happy that the next major tournaments will not have customs on.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the vanilla version. Customs just add way too much cluster and confusion. That and the way it's set up; we can't use everyone's preferred setups. That puts players who don't post on smashboards at a huge disadvantage. Unlocking customs sucks so bad.. You can't practice them online..
Customs are casual, and that's that.
I'm very happy that the next major tournaments will not have customs on.

Good for you, though I must say you are terrible at convincing others lol

 

[DuoTheFighter]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the vanilla version. Customs just add way too much cluster and confusion. That and the way it's set up; we can't use everyone's preferred setups. That puts players who don't post on smashboards at a huge disadvantage. Unlocking customs sucks so bad.. You can't practice them online..
Customs are casual, and that's that.
I'm very happy that the next major tournaments will not have customs on.

To be entirely fair, some characters are nearly trash without Custom Moves, and there are a good amount of characters that do benefit from using them. Plus if you're a Smash 4 Fanatic you'd most likely remember the custom moves for most, if not all characters, even if they let you see what custom moves your opponent has before the match actually begins, because I've seen a couple of tournaments that do that, similar to checking buttons in a Street Fighter tournament.

EDIT: Also, the only thing that actually changes (At least legally in a tournament) with Custom Characters is the Specials. Everything else says the same.

 

[Macchiato]

To be entirely fair, some characters are nearly trash without Custom Moves, and there are a good amount of characters that do benefit from using them. Plus if you're a Smash 4 Fanatic you'd most likely remember the custom moves for most, if not all characters, even if they let you see what custom moves your opponent has before the match actually begins, because I've seen a couple of tournaments that do that, similar to checking buttons in a Street Fighter tournament.

EDIT: Also, the only thing that actually changes (At least legally in a tournament) with Custom Characters is the Specials. Everything else says the same.

only like 2 characters, puff and palutena. With customs puff is UNVIABLE.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

only like 2 characters, puff and palutena. With customs puff is UNVIABLE.

Mega Man definitely benefits with Custom Moves, which is why I said that my preferred set for Mega Man isn't in the EVO Official sets. >w>;;

 

[DunnoBro]

ZeRo is adamant about not using customs, it would be kinda strange for him to abuse them when he dislikes them.

Not really, considering he called for a diddy ban then used him

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

only like 2 characters, puff and palutena. With customs puff is UNVIABLE.

Mac gets better, Wii fit trainer gets better, donkey kong gets better, bowser gets better... Your argument is looking pretty weak there buddy.

Customs add more move sets which almost inherently expand the meta... I don't think this is an arguable point...

 

[Macchiato]

Mac gets better, Wii fit trainer gets better, donkey kong gets better, bowser gets better... Your argument is looking pretty weak there buddy.

Customs add more move sets which almost inherently expand the meta... I don't think this is an arguable point...

i'm talking about characters that are unviable with customs and without customs

TF are you talking bout?

 

[WakerofWinds]

i'm talking about characters that are unviable with customs and without customs

TF are you talking bout?

To be fair, that wasn't clear at all. Isn't puff more-or-less unviable regardless of customs, anyway?

 

[Macchiato]

To be fair, that wasn't clear at all. Isn't puff more-or-less unviable regardless of customs, anyway?

She isn't

she's already bad without them and not having usable customs seperate her away from the cast so far

 

[Evello]

This is why customs should be banned. It's the "easier" route. Ban all customs, and the community and figure out what to do with Mii's. Enabling customs will still divide the community because people will constantly argue over what customs should be legal.

I've heard this sentiment expressed several times, but it seems to me like it basically boils down to rather contradictory statement that, "this community struggles with banning things, so we should ban things." Just like banning individual customs, banning the moves as a whole will result in constant arguments. With customs on, we'll argue about banning "OP" moves, or restricting certain sets. With customs off we'll argue about legalizing customs again, either as a whole, or just to balance certain nonviable characters. We're going to argue endlessly no matter what, so I think we should really focus more on the results of our decision, rather than the difficulty in reaching it.

 

[DunnoBro]

The fact leaping rest is only slightly stronger than sonic's spring + upair but comes with the cost of your stock if it doesn't kill is hilarious

Customs definitely bring back her 64 joke status lol

 

[neohopeSTF]

Mac gets better, Wii fit trainer gets better, donkey kong gets better, bowser gets better... Your argument is looking pretty weak there buddy.

Customs add more move sets which almost inherently expand the meta... I don't think this is an arguable point...

Pretty sure I see people who play Mac say his customs are trash.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

Pretty sure I see people who play Mac say his customs are trash.

Ehh, I find Little Mac to be about the same level with Customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mac gets some landing mix-ups in grounding blow, and rising smash is... interesting due to the low % kill set-ups with it, I wouldn't compare him to WFT or Bowser though since his main issues aren't addressed. He just gets slightly more radical sidegrades.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

Someone like Sonic definitely benefits from Customs. Hammer Spin Dash, mostly, and the occasional Stomp for skillz. xD

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

its just ignorant to say that "customs don't add anything" when that's just flat out not true... It's the worst argument i'v heard in this thread and I assumed our community was intelligent enough to realize this.

 

[Macchiato]

its just ignorant to say that "customs don't add anything" when that's just flat out not true... It's the worst argument i'v heard in this thread and I assumed our community was intelligent enough to realize this.

Do people actually say that? LMAO saying that is like the most unintelligent thing you could say about customs.

 

[DunnoBro]

It's true within a certain skewed perspective. Like "default top tiers still win so why bother" and ignore the overall higher diversity and options available overall, but when they don't, then it becomes "man those custom chars are so broken."

The absolute best outcome I can foresee for the smash community is a minimalist but irrefutable attempt at patching customs in august, a tournament mode that allows custom moves but not equipment, and nintendo taking tournament mode data into account for future balance changes.

Almost definitely too optimistic, but not outside the realm of possibility.

 

[Electric91]

I've heard this sentiment expressed several times, but it seems to me like it basically boils down to rather contradictory statement that, "this community struggles with banning things, so we should ban things." Just like banning individual customs, banning the moves as a whole will result in constant arguments. With customs on, we'll argue about banning "OP" moves, or restricting certain sets. With customs off we'll argue about legalizing customs again, either as a whole, or just to balance certain nonviable characters. We're going to argue endlessly no matter what, so I think we should really focus more on the results of our decision, rather than the difficulty in reaching it.

I agree with this.

Where is this thread going? We're clearly struggling between 2 decisions now.

 

[Caryslan]

I honestly don't get some of the arguments I've seen against custom moves. Adding more moves will make the game cluttered and harder to play?

Then why can Marvel vs Capcom 3 players handle picking from three assists, Street Fighter IV players can handle picking between two ultra combos, and Mortal Kombat X players can pick from three variations of each character who often have different playstyles and specials?

The arguments make so sense. Since when is having fewer options better for a metagame? Especially since its been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that customs can vastly improve certain characters by giving them options and fixing weaknesses that they would other wise suffer from.

Let me blunt here, if other fighting game players can handle picking options for their characters and having some freedom in how their character plays in a match, then why can't the Smash community handle it? Why are we still even debating this?

Evo proved that customs don't break the game, and it showcased some cool stuff as well. Why are some people still so opposed to customs? Its not any more complicated to understand then Dr. Doom having a choice between Hidden Missiles, Molecular Shield, and Plasma Beam as his assist moves, with each offering him different options.

 

[DuoTheFighter]

Evne though Evo doesn't allow Edition Select for Ultra Street Fighter IV, it's not like you're locked to only one Ultra Combo for the Set or in general, same goes for alternate moves and assists in Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. I don't really see why having Custom Moves is an issue. Just make it a separate tournament bracket like Smash @ Xanadu does.

 

[Jiggly]

Evne though Evo doesn't allow Edition Select for Ultra Street Fighter IV, it's not like you're locked to only one Ultra Combo for the Set or in general, same goes for alternate moves and assists in Marvel Vs. Capcom 3. I don't really see why having Custom Moves is an issue. Just make it a separate tournament bracket like Smash @ Xanadu does.

The problem with that is it splits the players of one game. I honestly think that's unhealthy.

 

[LimitCrown]

The arguments make so sense. Since when is having fewer options better for a metagame? Especially since its been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that customs can vastly improve certain characters by giving them options and fixing weaknesses that they would other wise suffer from.

Yes. Some characters can be improved by customs. However, the ones that don't have good custom moves will only fall behind and some high-tier character significantly benefit from them. Also, since when did having a higher quantity of something certainly mean that it's better?

 

[DunnoBro]

Seems like both top mii brawler users (m2k and dapuffster) only like sm4sh with customs. (or specifically mii brawler's alt specials legal) Pretty interesting, though I will admit he's an insanely fun character. The overall solidity and coverage of mario with the potency of ZSS.

Yes. Some characters can be improved by customs. However, the ones that don't have good custom moves will only fall behind and some high-tier character significantly benefit from them. Also, since when did having a higher quantity of something mean that it's certainly better?

If a character can only be good by denying the options of other characters, it's most likely not that great of a character to begin with.

Furthermore, there's no clear-cut way to determine exactly how valid characters with bad customs are in a customs environment. It's much easier to gauge how much a character gets better, than the converse. Since a meta shift can still benefit chars not using customs.

Ex. Jigglypuff could probably have applications if the meta was all "worse recoveries in exchange for better combos" type characters.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's true within a certain skewed perspective. Like "default top tiers still win so why bother" and ignore the overall higher diversity and options available overall, but when they don't, then it becomes "man those custom chars are so broken."

The absolute best outcome I can foresee for the smash community is a minimalist but irrefutable attempt at patching customs in august, a tournament mode that allows custom moves but not equipment, and nintendo taking tournament mode data into account for future balance changes.

Almost definitely too optimistic, but not outside the realm of possibility.

Is there a way we can (politely!) contact Sakurai and remind him that we care about custom balance? A nicely-worded tweet or something?

 

[DunnoBro]

Is there a way we can (politely!) contact Sakurai and remind him that we care about custom balance? A nicely-worded tweet or something?

Contacting nintendo would be better, Sakurai can't really make decisions on his own anyway.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

In this whole thread there hasn't been a single issue that anti-custom people have brought up that hasn't been addressed. What dose it take to "win" this? We have tried using logic, analogys, pathos, and ethos. There is just no convincing them. I think we have all the support we're going to get. How do we move forward?...

 

[FSLink]

This is the offical list I found that contains all of the EVO Custom Move Sets for every character and the thread it links back to, sufficed to say that not every possible combination is going to be usable in a Custom Set (Namely because there are 48 (I think, lol math >w>; ) possible combinations for every character, and you're only able to store 11 at most, counting the default character with customs turned off as one.)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B8jSgl7JtfAGmDovuXoPiR9i3ZjpuO6K2ymvfKZRKws/edit

I would like the ability just to bring my 3DS with the custom characters I want to use into a tournament, have them verified by officials, and then uploaded into the Wii U that I would be using during that bracket before the tournament takes place. Sure it's somewhat time consuming, but not every good combination of moves is going to be there without it.

Tournaments are encouraged to allow custom set imports by the Custom Moveset Project, but EVO disallowed it because of obvious time constraints. A lot of tournaments did copy EVO rules verbatim to get players used to its ruleset, but this comes with the cost of disallowing people's personal sets even in locals.

 

[blackghost]

Tournaments are encouraged to allow custom set imports by the Custom Moveset Project, but EVO disallowed it because of obvious time constraints. A lot of tournaments did copy EVO rules verbatim to get players used to its ruleset, but this comes with the cost of disallowing people's personal sets even in locals.

Itshouldn't though. EVO logistics are a nightmare most most majors and locals don't have near the complications of evo.I also find it hard to believe that importing sets would increase a tournmanets time by that much. Every player wouldn't do it.

 

[SuaveChaser]

I don't have a issue with them. If people wanna move on with customs off in the future cool but i will still play them and enjoy them. Evo proved the better player will still win.

 

[Locke 06]

Itshouldn't though. EVO logistics are a nightmare most most majors and locals don't have near the complications of evo.I also find it hard to believe that importing sets would increase a tournmanets time by that much. Every player wouldn't do it.

If you're practicing for evo, why practice for a set that won't be there? Why would a TO want to do that if the goal is practice for evo?

The biggest issue with customs is that the CMP cannot feasibly keep up with the metagame. As much effort that goes into it, you're still not placating everyone.