What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[dav3yb]

Comparing the manner in which characters are unlocked and how customs are unlocked isn't even a discussion. You don't randomly unlock Falco, Wario, Rob or Duck Hunt. Unlocking customs is a very tedious process.

Sure, this isn't reason enough to ban them, but using the "Well nothing's exploded yet so we might as well keep them" mindset doesn't work. Not when customs are already such a pain to access for all characters.

so are you just not following the guides to unlock them? I got a 2nd wiiu so I'd have an additional setup for tournaments, and I was able to unlock all customs inside of a week without hardly even playing the game myself. If it's the 3ds version, sure, those can be a bit tedious, but there are ways to get the odds in your favor. The wii u unlocking is really almost a non issue at this point due to being able to nearly completely autopilot the process

 

[Damandatwin]

To the people who support customs here, I have a couple of ideas about how to make your argument more compelling...

Firstly, the entire spectrum of customs to no-customs rulesets can be represented simply by a list of which custom moves are banned. If it's empty they're all allowed, if it's full none are allowed, etc. If you guys are serious about custom moves and want to make them a real thing, you need to focus primarily on defining the criteria a custom move has to meet in order to be put on this list. This is because the main concern the anti-customs crowd has about customs, apart from logistical concerns, is that some of them are jank and Nintendo does not put the same level of effort (if any) into balancing them as they do into balancing the default specials. If you can show them that there is a meaningful way for them to voice their concerns about certain custom moves, that could go a long way toward alleviating their anxiety about them.

Now, you're probably wondering what I mean by "criteria" for banning moves. Think Smogon and their system for banning certain Pokemon or moves or whatever else. They have a pretty nice system where, IIRC, things can be put on a suspect list and people will intentionally use that Pokemon/item/strategy against other people and analyze, in detail, how it can be dealt with or if it's just too centralizing. I'm not saying we should use this specific system since I don't know how well it applies in Smash Bros, but that is the kind of thing I'm talking about. A concrete, formal process in which moves that are deemed too broken can be banned.

Something like this would be a huge organizational effort, but I'm fairly certain customs are going to die out if you just sit here and hope that the situation just works itself out naturally. Also note that if this is going to work you're going to need more than just the regular Smashboards crowd to participate. You need to convince top players and TOs to voice their opinions as well. Basically the more people and the more community leaders you have willing to participate, the better.

 

[Electric91]

It wasn't a one man project. Let's just keep on going.

I also am thinking that the poll is far too small, considering past polls that have been made.

For now, i feel the bigger problems come from villager & donkey kong; i like the idea of giving people a limited amount of customs, in TO perspective, the problem remains on unlocking. I've been keeping my WiiU up for days in and out farming the target blast mode and i still don't have them all.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Anyways, more here to express my deep disappointment in this discussion in general. The amount of insults that have been used, condescending tones, and the like put me in a hard place. I love you all, I love this community, but it's kind of the love a Dad has where he can still feel annoyed by a kid throwing a tantrum. You can have such a better discussion than that, I know you can.

I've been wanting to say something along these lines but you've put it a whole lot better and you've been around longer so you're more influential than I am.

All the drama over customs has me very close to being burned out. Healthy debate is good, but we need to maintain a sense of professionalism, especially those with higher clout in the scene. Considering that as a theologian, I've seen debates on far more controversial subjects handled civilly, I know this is possible.

 

[WritersBlah]

I've been wanting to say something along these lines but you've put it a whole lot better and you've been around longer so you're more influential than I am.

All the drama over customs has me very close to being burned out. Healthy debate is good, but we need to maintain a sense of professionalism, especially those with higher clout in the scene. Considering that as a theologian, I've seen debates on far more controversial subjects handled civilly, I know this is possible.

Yeah, I totally get what you're getting at. I've had political discussions with people that have beliefs almost completely opposite to mine, and we've been able to maintain calm, friendly demeanor all throughout, shake hands at the end, and think no less of each other. You would think discussion which concerns the matters of a country we both live in would be more heated and hostile than one regarding how rules for a video game should be.

Unfortunately, I think it might have something to do with the age of most Smashers. Nearly all fighting game players are sub-30 years old, and our generation in general (not just those who play fighting games) are notorious for being kind of whiny and acting entitled. Add to that pent up aggression for being in a community most of the rest of the world considers very niche and "awkward," and you've got a perfect formula for animosity amongst fellow players. I really wish we could simply coexist and run both custom and non-custom tournaments without feeling one is impeding on the other, but that's looking less and less likely as the weeks go by. As a customs-supporter in a disproportionately anti-customs area, I feel I can really attest to this.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

Besides the issues that comes with actually unlocking every move (I've been trying for months on and off to get penetrating needles and distant nosferatu, still no luck) just to be able to actually practice against them or attain understanding of how to use them correctly, there is a far easier, less complicated and more enforceable solution to ban customs "jank" than IC chaingrabs: not toggling customs to on. Against Ice Climbers you had to have the mindset of "Don't get hit grabbed" because that was always going to be apart of the game. With customs, it is reasonable to actually ban them because of it being a toggle like items eventually being banned in Melee.

~~~

I don't necessarily think customs add enough to the game, flame/nitpick shield up:
Custom moves aren't balanced because they essentially give characters options that they were never designed to have in default, what the development team clearly focuses on when patching. For example, Greninja's Shadow Sneak was patched so it no longer drops like a rock, but Shadow Strike and Shadow Dash function the same as the original version. Characters are all designed with strengths and weaknesses that have to be balanced out, but a lot of customs skew this delicate balance or are straight downgrades.
For example, Heavy Skull Bash gives Pikachu an extremely powerful KO move that can be used in the air or on the ground which also happens to have true setups into it off of grab or a projectile. One of Pikachu's inherent weaknesses is that he is not loaded with KO power, and HSB essentially removes that weakness, which is why ESAM believes Pikachu to be the best in the game with customs. Looking back at Regi vs. ESAM, the only reason ESAM won was because of Twave into HSB patching up his sloppy play. Otherwise this no name Game and Watch would've eliminated a top Pikachu, which is the opposite of the supposed "balance" customs bring.
More examples of customs mitigating weaknesses and amplifying strengths include:

• Rocketbarrel Attack allowing Diddy easy 70-80% kills even after the patches that purposefully nerfed Diddy's KO power.
• Luma Warp letting Rosalina apply instant Luma pressure from a distance, even comboing into KO moves.
• Shooting Star Bit giving Rosalina another way to camp and force approaches with no risk.
• Counter Timber limiting approach options even more and lets Villager camp far more effectively.
• Exploding Balloon Trip letting Villager recover with a hitbox and camp the ledge.
• Penetrating Needles, because needles needed to do a ton of shield damage.
• Double Spring giving Sonic a much easier time landing.
• Hammer Spin Dash setting up for/aiding vertical chases, helps recovery, combos into Usmash, and comes in at a weird angle that can be hard to react to while avoiding projectiles.
• Lightning Falcon Kick giving the Captain 0 to death combos, sometimes without the need of the infinite. The setups for a footstool are relatively easy for Falcon, since he only needs a Dthrow, Uair, or the 1st hit of Nair.
• Twisting Fox kills absurdly early off of an air dodge read without sacrificing much recovery, and it is much more intimidating to challenge.

Notice how none of the characters listed are considered bad, yet they get much better with customs. As for low tiers improving with customs, they still have inherent flaws in their design that prevent them from being high tier, and if they do become viable with customs, they rely on the custom that makes them good. Donkey Kong is a perfect example of this, as his neutral and disadvantaged state is patched up with the help of one move, Kong Cyclone. The flaws of his character are still there, but with customs he heavily relies on one move. Palutena is another example, a bad character who needs the mobility and strong Hoo-Hah that (Infinite-removing-an-intentional-drawback-of-the-move) Lightweight and Superspeed give her to be viable. Moves like these make characters viable, but also one dimensional.

And then you have the plethora of (near) complete upgrades that take away the counterpicking depth customs supposedly offers:

Spoiler

• Dark Fists
• Wizard Dropkick
• Power Vision
• Gravity Grenade
• Zig Zag Can
• Upper Cutter
• Jumping Inhale
• Dragon Rush
• Fast Fire Bird
• Gust Cape/Breezy Sheet
• Dash Slash
• Boomerang
• Plant Barrier
• Danger Wrap
• Etc.

On top of that, some characters don't even benefit enough or at all from customs, such as and future DLC characters.

And somewhat off topic, but coming from a Pokemon player, banning specific customs ala Smogon is not good for the community. If you do that then the next best custom will get banned, and so on and so forth.

tl;dr Customs make top tiers stronger just as much as everybody else, and the lack of polished normals still keeps worse characters worse or overly reliant on a custom. The lack of side-grade matchup specific customs takes away from the game, and customs at best shuffle the mid tier around. The benefits of customs aren't enough to keep them over hassle for TOs and players, especially players who live in regions which disallow customs.

Before I say anything else, first I want to thank you for taking the time to write out such a well thought out response. I've read your post in full, and agree that those are some legitimate reasons for the banning of customs. However, I don't believe that we're looking at the larger picture. It might very well be true that the high tier characters benefit a little bit too much from custom moves. Might. But, say I was to be in favor of banning customs for that reason, I would prefer to have every bit of information in front of me first.

For example, you mentioned that, outside the high tiers, customs would, at best, shift a few characters around, but without hard evidence proving the fact, I'm not so inclined to believe this is true. I'd prefer for there to be a deeper analysis into each custom first before we call "OP" and ban them (this is assuming i were up for a ban).

At first glace, it would appear that customs mostly favor the top/high tier characters, but due to poor representation of the lower/mid tiers, it's difficult to tell if that is because these characters benefit more, or if the lower tiers simply weren't played as well. The metagames of each character do not develop at the same rate. Sonic, Falcon, Pika, Shiek, and Rosa are characters that were already strong in tournament. The amount of matchup and character specific knowlege higher tier players possess has to be taken into account.

~~~~

A common complaint I see about customs is that some characters are overly reliant on one or two customs to be good. I don't necessarily see this as a bad thing, as you can make an argument for most characters relying on one or two moves to be strong competetively.

To name a few

Samus and her Missles/ Charge Shot

Duck hunt and his Can/ Clay Pigeons

Charizard and his Flamethrower / Rock Smash

Bowser Jr. And his Cart Dash / Mechakoopa

Luigi and his Fireballs / Cyclone ( he'd still have strong frame data, but his grab game would take a heavy hit without these two moves)

D3 and his Gordos

Ect.

Custom moves aren't going to change that core aspect of smash. There are some characters that are a tad one-demensional with customs, but these characters (looking at you Charizard, Bowser, Palutena) were a tad one demensional already. If anything, custom moves add a bit more variety to their kits. Charizard gains another strong option in the neutral game; Bowser gains greater mobility, a pseudo-combo game, useful movement techs; Palutena gains access to a plentora of options.

I would still like to see customs run thier course. I'd like to see top level players expereminet with custom moves a bit more, show off what each character can do. I'd like to see what the mid-to lower tier characters are capable of. EVO was the first major tournament to feature custom moves. There were some cheesy moments, but I'd chalk them down to inexperience moreso than the moves being broken.

If you examine the Ally vs (I can't remember his name but he used sonic) game. The sonic player attempted to abuse Hammer Spin dash to win, but ally managed to avoid every single one, bar one time when he was briefly rooted in the ground. That set, at least, shows that so-called broken customs can be dealt with withthe proper adaptation.

I would like to look further down the road, perhaps a year or two from now, after customs have run their course for a while. Will custom abuse cases still exsist? Will players begin to favor certain customs over others as matchup specific sidegrades? How will attitudes towards custom moves begin to change as players learn to adapt? Time will tell.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Pro-Customs guy here.


As much as I love customs, I am also aware of the problems that they possess, too. The biggest problem being, of course, the logistics of collecting and setting customs up. But beyond that, I am also aware of the "jank" that certain custom moves provide. That, and how people have a tendency to dislike anything and everything that can promote stalling tactics (and NOT just customs). And for anyone who has a problem with any of those three things, I actually don't disagree with you.
I understand why Sakurai wanted to give people the option of unlocking Custom Moves. Unlocking something, by extension, is giving people the feeling of being "rewarded". And while this idea is mostly fine in the concept of casual play, it is an absolute nightmare for competitive play purposes. However, this would have been far less of a problem if you didn't unlock the same custom moves over and over. Because of this, Customs become much more of a hassle for everyone...BOTH for casual players and tournament players. It doesn't benefit anyone, and it doesn't make earning custom moves feel more rewarding. And I cannot fathom why Sakurai did this. On top of this, Palutena and Miis have all of their custom moves already unlocked (although Miis were at one point planned to be unlockable bonuses too). This makes the concept of custom moves, at least in regards to their status about unlocking them, incredibly inconsistent. To the point where unlocking them is a pointless endeavor, and a frustrating game mechanic altogether. And I don't blame ANYBODY for feeling this way. It's an ugly concept that could've been handled a lot more efficiently no matter what angle you look at it from.

Then there's the "jank" custom moves. In my opinion, most custom moves are actually quite fine. But then you have a couple of custom moves that are incredibly degenerate for tournament play...and heck, even casual play as well. HSB and Kong Cyclone are two prime examples that are made that much worse because their coding is faulty. HSB would have been alright if you didn't have the ability to smash-charge it, and Kong Cyclone would be a lot more tolerable to deal with if you didn't have the ability to cancel almost all lag with it by landing on the ground. These things are oversights, and make these moves far worse than what they could have been. Even then, there are "jank" customs not because of oversights or faulty coding, but just poor balancing decisions in general. Timber Counter being another example. It seems fine in concept, sure. It nerfs Villager's killing options a fair amount (axe/tree not killing), and all it does is trip people when it is a sapling. But the big issue with Timber Counter is that, not only does it further promote Villager's stalling abilities, it is a move with little to no counters to help go against it. Compare it to Diddy Kong's bananas, if you will. You can pick up a banana peel and throw it back at Diddy. You can reflect banana peels with Mario's Cape, a Reflector, or even Ness's bat. Or heck, it just straight up disappears the moment you trip on it. But none of these apply to the Timber Counter sapling. You have to wait it out. And this is just bad gameplay balance even though it is ENTIRELY possible to beat the strategy. Why? Because all waiting does is waste time, and it is a game mechanic that all game developers should avoid. When a person waits, they aren't really ENGAGED in doing anything. It becomes less about a battle between you and your opponent, and more of a battle with you and the clock. And it's not just Timber Counter that does this. Going back to Kong Cyclone, it also does this (in its current state anyways). One of the few counterplays to Kong Cyclone is to, you guessed it, wait it out. Because not only does it have virtually no landing lag if you land on the ground with it before it is over, but they also thought it was a good idea to give the move SUPER ARMOR. So not only do you have to deal with the wind, which is an endeavor in its own right, but you can do little about it other than waiting it out (for most characters) because of the Super Armor. Waiting is bad game design in many aspects, because it creates a period of disconnect between the game and its players. Because you aren't really playing the game when you wait.

To add to the above reason in regards to waiting, this also applies to major stalling tactics as well. People don't like heavy stalling tactics, because they employ a lot of what is said above. Sure, they help people win matches, but in a way that is not truly engaging with the other player. It becomes less about playing a match, and more about the same series of buttons. They don't HAVE to care much about what the other player is doing, because as long as they keep repeating the same steps, they know that they still have a high probability of succeeding as long as their patience is greater than that of their opponent's. And usually, it is. Because while a person stalling only has to worry about "Oh, that trap is gone. Got to put it back up again.", the other person actually has to DEAL with those things. It creates a huge gap in the difference of pressure being placed upon each of the players respective minds. Player A only has to worry about the same thing he has practiced over and over again. It becomes second nature to him, and should his strategy be broken, he is nowhere as mentally worn out as the other player probably is. Because while Player A is only focusing on the strategies that he already knows like the back of his hand, Player B has FOUR battles that they must deal with. They have to deal with the strategy, first and foremost. Then, they have to battle the other player. Additionally, they also have to battle the clock because every second is valuable in order to beat the opposing person and their strategy. And on top of all of this? They also have to battle themselves, so that they don't lose their patience. This becomes a lopsided difference in the amount of effort each player is exerting, because while Player A is only fighting 1 1/2 battles on average (Making sure their strategy continues to work/OCCASIONALLY dealing with the other player), Player B has 4 different battles that he is fighting (The Opponent/Stalling Strategy/The Clock/Their own patience). And nobody in their right mind would rather want to fight 4 battles instead of 1 1/2, especially if this added stress and pressure can affect their performance in future matchups even if they DO win/the matchup is definitely winnable.

Another point I would like to add about stalling tactics is that, for us at home who DIDN'T go to EVO, we were probably more "okay" with these things. Sure, we might have disliked seeing Stalledger and other similar tactics, but for the people who stayed home, these people were probably far less affected by watching these matches as opposed to the people who ACTUALLY went to EVO (even if they didn't participate in the tournament). People at home had the leisure of saying/thinking "Oh, a Villager that likes to stall. I guess that I'll just go get something to eat from my fridge and switch over to the Melee stream until that match is over.", or things of that nature. But for the people who went to EVO, they were probably more annoyed about seeing these kind of tactics, because almost everyone at the event had to drive or even fly in order to get there. So even if they could've done something else while at the event, they didn't have the same leisure that people watching at home did. And this probably affected people who wanted to watch SPECIFICALLY Smash 4 at EVO in particular. Think about it: You pay a good amount of money to afford plane tickets to go to EVO to watch the Smash 4 tournament (or even participate in it), and you're hyped to see what kind of exciting matches there will be, and then there's a match with a Stalledger.

And no, none of what I am saying is trying to make any disrespect or trying to point any fingers at Captain Awesum or any other players (he was just doing what he could to win just like any other player), but if you look at what I have said from these perspectives, you can understand why a lot of players were frustrated with these kinds of things. Especially if they actually went to EVO instead of just watching from home. Because they took a lot of time, effort, and money out of their pockets to go to/participate in this event...and then certain matchups had a lot of waiting involved in them as opposed to the players actively engaging eachother. And as much as I love customs, I completely understand a lot of people's frustrations when it came to these matches. Sure, there are other potential issues with custom moves, but stalling/waiting is the one that struck a chord with most people.



In my own personal opinion, in the event that Custom Moves are NOT balanced by patches (I think that some will be in the future though), we as the community have to do something about this. Whether you are pro-customs or not, we have to do things in order to keep player and viewer interest in Smash 4 alive. We, as a community, have to keep our scene growing. Don't think just about the custom moves meta, and don't just think about the non-custom moves meta. Do something to help both grow and prosper, because both of them are Smash 4.

And with that out of the way, where do we go with custom moves from here? A lot of people want certain custom moves banned. HSB, Thunder Wave, Kong Cyclone, Timber Counter, Explosive Balloon Trip, Hammer Spin Dash, and Double Spring just to name some of the few more controversial ones. Other people don't want ANY of these banned. So, as of right now, it is creating quite a divide in the community. Some people employ an "all or nothing" sentiment in regards to custom moves, while others think it would be more beneficial to ban some custom moves for the overall sake of balance. And while I am more likely to side with the later, I will say that there is a possible solution that can at least make the majority of people somewhat happy (I think/hope), and that is by banning certain custom move sets.

This wouldn't actually ban any custom moves. Rather, just banning specific custom sets that seem to be more problematic than other sets. And sure, while this will still spark controversy with some people, I think that this would be the best way for everyone to handle custom moves as of right now, and help reduce friction between both sides of the argument. We can't do nothing with custom moves, as this will just cause growing unrest between players/posters on both sides. And we can't immediately outright ban any custom moves either, because that would just cause a wildfire of arguments to erupt immediately. However, we still have to do something. In my belief, anyways. So, in my opinion, banning problematic custom move sets would be a way to not only allow both sides to slowly adjust, but also allow us to come to conclusions that both sides can at least find some appeasement/satisfaction from. And yeah, I know that this won't make everyone happy. But I do think it will help reduce at least some friction between both sides. Especially if we tackle problems that BOTH SIDES dislike, such as stalling.



Anyways, that's enough flavor-text for now. Let's talk about a few custom move sets that I find to be overly "toxic"/problematic in the custom moves metagame:

Double Spring + Hammer Spin Dash: Sets with both of these customs need to go. As Static Manny demonstrated against Ally, a ton of people hate watching this set. Both custom moves promote stalling, and on a character such as Sonic whom is already considered "annoying" by most people, this is a set that is going to extremely hurt viewership in the long run. Sure, while Double Spring hurts Sonic's recovery and limits his vertical killing options a little bit, Hammer Spin Dash helps to compliment these losses. Not only that, but this means that Sonic now has TWO additional options to add to his landing options and help him escape pressure. Double Spring gives Sonic two "get out of jail free" cards on its own, since he can attack/airdodge after either spring. And Hammer Spin Dash is not only near-instantaneous, but it allows Sonic to ascend extremely quickly AND he can double jump out of it. This doesn't even account for the other slew of benefits Hammer Spin Dash gives Sonic, such as the ability to ground/plant people. Overall, this set promotes illaWAY too much stalling, and Sonic doesn't really have to commit to anything in neutral with this set. Therefore, I think that it needs to be banned.

Thunder Wave + Heavy Skull Bash: Ignoring the infinites that Thunder Wave can create for a moment, this set is too good even without that, because Thunder Wave just creates way too many opportunities to seal a free KO with Heavy Skull Bash due to the raw amount of power that move has. While ESAM wasn't really able to pull off any infinites with the combo at EVO, he DID manage to take a lot of stocks by hit-confirming a successful Thunder Wave into Heavy Skull Bash. This greatly makes Pikachu, a character that is already top tier, far more deadly in neutral. Because you are always under the constant threat of Heavy Skull Bash thanks to Thunder Wave. If any single one of those Thunder Waves hit you, you can pretty much kiss your ***, and your stock goodbye. And in a way, sets like this promote a little bit of stalling, because why approach when you can just fish for one of the Thunder Waves to hit so you can win with HSB? And even if you DON'T kill with HSB, do take note that Pikachu is still one of the best characters in the game in regards to edgeguarding, and HSB will lead to much more instances of this happening. Overall, this set is far too potent for its own good, and I think it would be best if sets with both of these custom moves are banned. (Oh, and people still have to deal with Quick Attack regardless, too)

Timber Counter + Explosive Balloon Trip: Ah yes, the classic Stalledger combo. This one is infamous, so I don't need to go over it much. Timber Counter's sapling is pretty much a banana peel that stays on the field for 20 seconds, and you cannot pick it up or even reflect it. And Explosive Balloon Trip gives Villager two exploding hitboxes above him that he can detonate at his own leisure. Combined, this makes Villager's ledge-stalling tactics astronomically both annoying to deal with, and boring to watch for many players and people. This makes it to where if he EVER has the stock lead, he can just camp behind his fortress of projectiles until the timer runs out. And sure, while it has been proven that it can be beaten by people turning the tables on Villager and camping HIM out, all this does is cause more waiting and stalling from both players. At any point during the match, in favor of EITHER CHARACTER/PLAYER, it usually involves some form of stalling. And the players, especially the Villager, aren't really trying to engage with the other player, because they are afraid of losing the stock lead. That is why I feel as though it would be best for everyone if this set was banned. Because although it won't get rid everything that Villager can do to stall his opponents, it will promote both players to be more actively involved in the match as opposed to going through a series of mindless button presses and running away in an incredibly dull game of tag.

Shooting Star Bit + Luma Warp: This set is just far, far too powerful in neutral. Especially for a character that is already dominant in the vanilla metagame. Shooting Star Bit, on top of being incredibly fast and covering a lot of ground, just deals way too much damage (4-5%). It is essentially the nightmare child of Fast Fireball and Falco Laser. The shots halt the opponent's progress because they deal considerable hitstun, and this is especially bad on a character like Rosalina whom already shuts out a lot of characters thanks to her Luma meatshield. But since this is compounded by Luma Warp, which can hit-confirm into a kill move ACROSS HALF OF THE STAGE, she becomes an absolute monster to deal with in neutral for most characters. Not only is she safely building up damage with her Shoot Star Bits, but every single one that hits, it is going to put you closer and closer to a Luma Warp -> Death combo in the blink of an eye. Even then, Luma Warp gives her tons of stage control with no consequences, and makes her extremely unpredictable and even more frustrating to deal with. Therefore, I believe that this particular set needs to be banned, so that her neutral game isn't as overbearingly potent.



Anyways, those are the four main sets that I feel as though are the most problematic in the Customs-On metagame (currently), and need to be dealt with to help promote both player and viewer enjoyment of Smash 4.



In conclusion, I still love custom moves. And I am still very optimistic for their future, especially since they got a lot of exposure at EVO. I feel as though that custom moves still have a ton of potential in regards to making people hype, and be an interesting scene for Smash 4 along with the default metagame. I want to see both grow and develop side-by-side with eachother. And although some custom moves ruin the experience for many, I feel as though there are things that we can do as a community to help prevent these things from happening, even if custom moves don't get patched (I still believe that they will though thanks to EVO).

BUT

We have to do something as a community to make this happen. Otherwise, it never will. And if we don't do anything, this is something that will hurt everyone in regards to Smash 4. Not only will it cause viewership to diminish, but also players' wills to continue playing Smash 4. And this includes competitive players.



For my fellow Pro-Customs advocates, ask yourselves this: Which would you rather protect more? Every single custom move/custom move set, even if some in particular are seen as "jank" by almost everybody? Or the Smash 4 scene in its entirety, and the people who love to watch and play it? Which one is more valuable not just to you, but everyone else? Weigh your thoughts, and options carefully. But do so quickly, because something needs to be done about this. People like @ Amazing Ampharos have worked really hard to even make something like this happen. Don't let their efforts go to waste by clinging on your ideals too tightly. Don't let one or a few "jank" custom moves/custom move sets ruin the experience for most people. Because all that would do is hurt the entirety of the Smash 4 competitive scene. And I don't think anybody wants that. Because deep down, we all want to have fun. Both Customs-On and Customs-Off. So let's do everything that we can in order to keep having fun, and keeping that spirit alive for both players and viewers of Smash 4.



Anyways, that's enough ranting from me for now. Apologies to those who read the entirety of my thoughts, but I also thank you for being patient with me. I will be wishing the best of luck for Smash 4 and its community, no matter what side you are on!

 

[Thinkaman]

Shooting Star Bit + Luma Warp: This set is just far, far too powerful in neutral.

This I have to disagree with. It's "so powerful" that we saw a lot of Rosalinas going 1311 in various matchups at EVO.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Come on guys; I didn't say I considered this poll a scientific poll, just non-surprising. Obviously larger and more thorough polling is necessary.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

This I have to disagree with. It's "so powerful" that we saw a lot of Rosalinas going 1311 in various matchups at EVO.

Fair enough. Even so, I think set banning could help us with Sonic in particular, and a little bit with Villager/Pikachu/potentially other characters. Double Spring + Hammer Spin Dash looked pretty ridiculous imo.

Assuming we do anything at all/don't outright ban particular customs, that is. *shrugs*

 

[SoniCraft]

I just wanna throw out there that I think Extreme Balloon Trip is much more ban-worthy than Timber Counter. You see, with Timber Counter, there's an actual trade-off for Villager. He loses some much-needed KO power from the axe and tree, in favor of better stage control. Most villagers see it as a direct upgrade, but I think if we let things play out for a longer amount of time, we will see more villagers going back to default timber. It is possible to play around the trip seed, believe it or not.

EBT on the other hand, that's a different story. There's literally no reason to use default up b over this one, and I'll explain why. Default has slightly more mobility than EBT, but it doesn't have a hitbox, so if an edgeguarder times correctly, he can actually stuff villager's recovery(probably temporarily, but still). EBT has two somewhat large hitboxes that explode upon the tiniest contact. This immediately stops any attempt at edgeguarding. Even if you popped both balloons, Villager STILL isn't dead yet because the launch Villager gets from them both popping is TREMENDOUS. So much so, that a villager can easily come from the blastzone to the ledge just by pressing A two times to pop both balloons. So you're recovery is safer, goes the same amount of distance that matters, and it allows you to ledge stall for space. No reason to use default.

 

[Thinkaman]

I have avoided talking too much about customs lately, because I get frustrated easily and don't want to risk offending people.

I want to reframe the context in more practical human terms, because I think most of us have lost sight of that. It's become an ideological discussion of theory.

So, here's the question to anyone who opposes customs:

Why do you want to exclude me from participating in tournaments or the community?

I play 1111 Ness, 2211 Mac, 2122 Ganon, 2321 WFT, 2312 Palutena, and 312X Duck Hunt.

I don't believe that anyone here maliciously hates me or actively, intentionally is trying to prevent me from entering in tournaments.

But I'm asking you to recognize the unavoidable fact that this is the exact consequence of banning my characters.

I mean, I guess I could enter a customs-banned tourney as a second class citizen, go only 1111 Ness, and get pooped on by Rosalinas all day, and pretend that this is somehow not discriminatory or unfair at all. Or I could play 1111 WFT or Palutena, who are aren't even the same character archetype, and pretend that there is no difference. But all that would require a suspension of disbelief that I unfortunately lack.


So... why would anyone do this?

Is there anyone who actually thinks that of those characters I play, any grant me an unfair advantage? Does anyone actually think that those oddballs are actually top 10 characters, much less unfair? I refuse to believe that anyone here is that stupid or clueless.


The best I can gather, is that people want to de facto ban me from tourneys because they dislike unrelated characters who performed poorly at EVO.

If this doesn't make much sense to you, well, I got 'nuthin.

 

[CursedJay]

Text.

From my perspective, this is a logistics issue. Customs are not easily accessible, and until we figure out a way to make them accessible, it's too much of a hassle. Will customs remain banned forever? I would surely hope not. They do amaizng things for the meta. However, we don't have a platform to stand on yet when it comes to developing a concrete meta. It's like trying to put icing on a cake that hasn't been baked yet.

Props to you for not being custom dependant, tho.

 

[LimitCrown]

I wasn't able to watch EVO. However, according to what I heard about the tournament, custom moves were not used very often. There is also still the issue of certain custom moves being very powerful or problematic and the fact that custom moves can benefit some of the high-tier characters greatly. Also, because of the nature of certain special moves like Thunder Wave, I doubt that custom moves like that will be balanced at all. Because of these reasons and some others that may have been mentioned already, I am still against custom moves. Custom moves don't seem to make the game more balanced in a significant way, which was one of the reasons used to support the usage of them in the first place.

 

[Thinkaman]

From my perspective, this is a logistics issue. Customs are not easily accessible, and until we figure out a way to make them accessible, it's too much of a hassle. Will customs remain banned forever? I would surely hope not. They do amaizng things for the meta. However, we don't have a platform to stand on yet when it comes to developing a concrete meta. It's like trying to put icing on a cake that hasn't been baked yet.

Props to you for not being custom dependant, tho.

People concerned about logistics (standardized sets is not a panacea, guys) and the potential barrier-to-entry to new players deserve applause.

It's a difficult challenge to speak out on a "side" of an issue with oft-overlooked-but-important concerns.

I hope that people raising these points do not suffer any misguided and poorly aimed "Y U SO SCRUB?" flak.

Real life is never two sides.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't even think it's a logistical issue. If there's ONE single thing Evo proved its that you can run a huge tournament with customs on with minimal issue.

Like, they're is no better physical and real proof than that. xD

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't even think it's a logistical issue. If there's ONE single thing Evo proved its that you can run a huge tournament with customs on with minimal issue.

Like, they're is no better physical and real proof than that. xD

I mean, I agree. But EVO, probably the most professional and well-organized tourney of all time, having a flawless customs tourney does not automatically make the issue go away forever.

 

[CursedJay]

I don't even think it's a logistical issue. If there's ONE single thing Evo proved its that you can run a huge tournament with customs on with minimal issue.

Like, they're is no better physical and real proof than that. xD

In order to prepare for customs, a player would need to

A: become familiar with all customs. This is the easy part. Simply watching youtube videos can teach you about the sets.

B: Prepare for all legal combinations of customs to cover most, if not all possibilities of what you'll meet in bracket. THIS is the hard part. This puts a bit too much responsibility on the player. This is why instead of legalizing 10 sets, I proposed the legalization of 1-3 sets per character.

 

[Damandatwin]

Huge tournaments aren't what people are concerned about with logistics. They're more concerned about locals and practicing at home. Big tournaments are actually the easiest case to deal with because when you have that kind of money floating around you can just buy the action replay or whatever at negligible cost.

 

[Thinkaman]

Assuming we could get everyone to actually agree (ha!) I'm totally fine with having a single "Prime" set for each character.

I actually see relatively little value in the variety of "81 sets", or even 10, or even 3. For 1v1 play, I believe most characters will converge on a particular set (for all matchups) over time. The few that have a matchup-based split will still only have 2 in most cases.

But, I don't think this is practical, unfortunately. In select cases, we even had trouble getting people to agree on 10 for EVO. And many oddball sets were actually used, to the surprise of both me and Ampharos!

 

[CursedJay]

I actually had an idea called the Optimal Set Project, but it's been overlooked so many times. I guess people just don't want it.

 

[san.]

I have avoided talking too much about customs lately, because I get frustrated easily and don't want to risk offending people.

I want to reframe the context in more practical human terms, because I think most of us have lost sight of that. It's become an ideological discussion of theory.

So, here's the question to anyone who opposes customs:

Why do you want to exclude me from participating in tournaments or the community?

I play 1111 Ness, 2211 Mac, 2122 Ganon, 2321 WFT, 2312 Palutena, and 312X Duck Hunt.

I don't believe that anyone here maliciously hates me or actively, intentionally is trying to prevent me from entering in tournaments.

But I'm asking you to recognize the unavoidable fact that this is the exact consequence of banning my characters.

I mean, I guess I could enter a customs-banned tourney as a second class citizen, go only 1111 Ness, and get pooped on by Rosalinas all day, and pretend that this is somehow not discriminatory or unfair at all. Or I could play 1111 WFT or Palutena, who are aren't even the same character archetype, and pretend that there is no difference. But all that would require a suspension of disbelief that I unfortunately lack.


So... why would anyone do this?

Is there anyone who actually thinks that of those characters I play, any grant me an unfair advantage? Does anyone actually think that those oddballs are actually top 10 characters, much less unfair? I refuse to believe that anyone here is that stupid or clueless.


The best I can gather, is that people want to de facto ban me from tourneys because they dislike unrelated characters who performed poorly at EVO.

If this doesn't make much sense to you, well, I got 'nuthin.

Most people don't give a crap about Mii users, so I suppose this just extends to a few more people/characters.

 

[Illuminose]

Most people don't give a crap about Mii users, so I suppose this just extends to a few more people/characters.

To be honest, I don't really have an issue with allowing Mii customs if we can agree to get rid of Helicopter Kick. Not having Helicopter Kick isn't the death of Mii Brawler, and it's one of the most complained about moves as far as customs are concerned (for good reason). The presentable position for Miis with customs off is Helicopter Kick banned with a more reasonable amount of sets, then I think no one would care/argue because that's the whole Mii gimmick.

I don't even think it's a logistical issue. If there's ONE single thing Evo proved its that you can run a huge tournament with customs on with minimal issue.

Like, they're is no better physical and real proof than that. xD

EVO has the resources to hire people and foot the bill to set up customs on all of their systems. If Mr. Wizard wants to do this, then that's his decision. It's not a practical reality for all TOs. Juggleguy (the TO of Smash Con and Big House) has expressed that customs are a massive logistical headache which is why neither of those tournaments are running customs (that and the fact that I suspect those tournaments will get more big name attendance with customs off). It's not really that easy. For one, the 3DS end takes a long time. Unless you use Powersaves it probably takes the average person 2-3 weeks to unlock all of the customs. Disregard this and say you bought the Powersave to unlock all customs. You still have to create 480 custom sets for the normal characters, an extra Mii on the console, and 51 Mii sets (for whatever dumb reason we didn't restrict Miis to 10 sets). Then you have to take the time to transfer all of those sets onto the console. If you don't have a 3DS, you pretty much have to do the turbo controller method on Wii U and wait for that to run, then still set up all the sets on the Wii U. Unlocking customs and setting up the sets is a massive logistical concern for TOs of major tournaments and also a huge barrier of entry to the average new player. For someone who is interested in the scene and just wants to get into it, that's a massive process to undertake especially seeing as it's randomized. If not for the logistical and barrier to entry concerns, I'd be in favor of customs with a banlist because it would make no logical sense not to be.

 

[WakerofWinds]

To those of you who oppose customs only from a logistical standpoint: how do you feel about Palutena and the Miis? The Miis are able to use their "custom" moves even with customs off, and Palutena comes with all of her custom abilities unlocked. I realize that legalizing exclusively Palutena customs presents other discussions, but without them she's barely a character.

The Mii's on the other hand are, as I said, able to use their moves in customs off, which leads me to believe that they aren't customs at all.

 

[deepseadiva]

Unlocking customs and setting up the sets is a massive logistical concern for TOs of major tournaments and also a huge barrier of entry to the average new player.

Everything you said is true. But I also wouldn't subscribe to hand holding players into a competative game. Smash 4 in reality is deeply complex with who knows how many individual matchups, multiplied by customizable movesets, on counterpick stages. A huge barrier of entry does exist, but I think that's what makes this game so special - thats its incredibly robust and everyone SHOULD struggle to become good at it. I wouldn't want to dumb down the game just to make it simpler to understand.

But its true that its an enormous hassle for major tournaments. That an unavoidable fact. But so is unlocking the whole game in general. Not to mention extra DLC you have to pay extra for.

And like @ WakerofWinds mentioned what about Miis and Palutena? Even with all the above reasoning, they seem to be exempt from all that struggle.

 

[san.]

To those of you who oppose customs only from a logistical standpoint: how do you feel about Palutena and the Miis? The Miis are able to use their "custom" moves even with customs off, and Palutena comes with all of her custom abilities unlocked. I realize that legalizing exclusively Palutena customs presents other discussions, but without them she's barely a character.

The Mii's on the other hand are, as I said, able to use their moves in customs off, which leads me to believe that they aren't customs at all.

I think both should have their specials, so there'd be an extra rule where if Palutena is used, customs can be turned on for the remainder of the set. If the person plans on using Palutena in later games, it has to be acknowledged before the first game so that the whole set is Customs ON, unless he chooses 1111 Palutena. Palutena needs customs ON to play, but I don't think that the opponent should be limited to customs OFF at that point. Better than an extra rule banning Miis. There can also be a gentleman's for Customs ON at the beginning of sets as a whole.

If Brawler is overpowered, there would need to be a rule that limits or ban him or the special move. Whether he is or not is up to speculation, but I think there's a decent case that tiny Brawler with helicopter kick is problematic at least.

 

[CursedJay]

To those of you who oppose customs only from a logistical standpoint: how do you feel about Palutena and the Miis? The Miis are able to use their "custom" moves even with customs off, and Palutena comes with all of her custom abilities unlocked. I realize that legalizing exclusively Palutena customs presents other discussions, but without them she's barely a character.

The Mii's on the other hand are, as I said, able to use their moves in customs off, which leads me to believe that they aren't customs at all.

Making an exception for Palutena opens the door to make an exception for all characters.

The Miis should NOT be banned in non custom play, as all of their customs are unlocked by default.

 

[deepseadiva]

Making an exception for Palutena opens the door to make an exception for all characters.

Palutena is pesky in that she makes this problem very evident.

I think @ san. 's idea is a good step towards a compromise.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Can't support customs until dlc characters gets customs. Unless they do I won't support customs anymore.

 

[Thinkaman]

Can't support customs until dlc characters gets customs. Unless they do I won't support customs anymore.

I also motion to ban clones until all characters get clones.

All characters need to have identical options available.

 

[Illuminose]

No to Palutena, customs off means customs off. Yes to Miis with Helicopter Kick banned and a more reasonable amount of sets. Miis are the exception because they have access to their customs with the custom toggle off, Palutena does not.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I also motion to ban clones until all characters get clones.

All characters need to have identical options available.

That's fine with me. However, intentionally giving characters less options and then saying that's balance is a joke. Especially considering custons changes some MUs and having that dynamic allows you tou counter your opponent.

It's like saying only control decks can sideboard and everyone is screwed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

What would the downsides of having custom and non-custom tournaments?

No true standardized rule set sure but I do ask if it would be a bad thing to have both.

 

[CursedJay]

What would the downsides of having custom and non-custom tournaments?

No true standardized rule set sure but I do ask if it would be a bad thing to have both.

The biggest problem is the lack of standard. Come time for a major tourney, top players will have made preferences to different styles, creating a bigger rift in the community, one rather unnecessary.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

The biggest problem is the lack of standard. Come time for a major tourney, top players will have made preferences to different styles, creating a bigger rift in the community, one rather unnecessary.

Yeah this is the downside I see as well, it is a question I ask because I see merit in supporting both if need be.

 

[warionumbah2]

Can't support customs until dlc characters gets customs. Unless they do I won't support customs anymore.

Also give MK new custom so he won't get **** on by most of the cast, get invalidated by Villager or completely decimated by Mii Brawler no matter how he DI's down throw. Anything to make him not gutter trash.

 

[WakerofWinds]

For all of you who think that Helicopter Kick is overpowered I would recommend watching Dapuffster vs. Artemis. I agree that even in a customs off meta, Palutena should remain customs off, and Miis should remain customs on. I was just curious to hear opinions.

 

[CursedJay]

Also give MK new custom so he won't get **** on by most of the cast, get invalidated by Villager or completely decimated by Mii Brawler no matter how he DI's down throw. Anything to make him not gutter trash.

MK isn't trash. He's not broken, but he definitely isn't trash.

Why'd you even feel the need, though lol.

For all of you who think that Helicopter Kick is overpowered I would recommend watching Dapuffster vs. Artemis. I agree that even in a customs off meta, Palutena should remain customs off, and Miis should remain customs on. I was just curious to hear opinions.

I don't even think Brawler is broken. All the Miis are fine. Brawler outshines the other two but there's nothing to ban there.

EDIT: ****, double posted again. Sorry.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK isn't trash. He's not broken, but he definitely isn't trash.

Why'd you even feel the need, though lol.

Its a reference to Dudley...

 

[san.]

I said "problematic" since I'm not sure how things will go if people get comfortable with using Miis and wondering what will happen if more top players pick him up since the meta is driven by Puffster and then random high-top level players like Nick Riddle that keep to themselves from what I know. Don't think it's broken currently, but if that situation arises, it's best to go through standard ban criteria methods, but now with mii sizes and alternate specials as side options.