What are your opinions on Customs Post-Evo 2015?

[ParanoidDrone]

Which is a bad argument.
They only need ONE 3ds to have them unlocked and create the sets, and they're good to go.

Related question. How do smaller (local and/or regional level) tournaments get their setups? Do they have a stash of consoles in a back room or do they ask people to donate their own for the event?

The reason I ask is because while it's pretty unreasonable to ask a TO and his team to fully unlock all customs on a large number of consoles (hence the 3DS and presets), it becomes a bit more feasible if instead each console is owned by a different person, since they can work in parallel. I unlocked all customs on my own system in about a month's time and change, and that was with maybe 5 hours of work per week. (I won't lie, it was boring and tedious. But it was doable.)

IDK, I'm sort of spitballing here. If we ever get to a point where there's better-than-even odds that any given copy of Smash has all customs unlocked, then maybe declaring open season on custom sets wouldn't be such a logistical nightmare.

That said, I do hope someone figures out how to hack the system and just give us all the customs to start, like what powersaves do for the 3DS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

At my small event I had two setups handed by the venue owners and other 3 I asked people to donate (and got compensated).
I took like 10 minutes to transfer every custom from my own 3ds to each setup (as soon as it finished transferring, they began unlocking stages. That actually took WAY MORE TIME than transfers).

The problem with your suggestion to work on parallel is that you can NEVER count your setups until the very last moment (specially at small locals), the other guys could be like "sorry, I couldn't make it last minute", or "sorry, mom/dad didn't allow me to bring it", and so on.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Surprising no one, this is another poll that shows a continuing majority support customs. I plan to put together a much bigger post about this sometime tomorrow, but for now, I think EVO went VERY well and honestly don't see how anyone could watch that and say "you know, that made customs look bad". They mattered an awful lot but overall lost to default Sheik. If you saw a lot of the off-stream matches, they mattered too; heck, I played a custom Ganon and had a great set instead of the awful free win I would have had without customs.

As per Captain Awesum, well, the other topic I made today sums up how I feel about that...

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

For people worried about villager's camp, can't we just ban the behavior?... They can have the two moves, but using them in tandem IN THAT WAY is unacceptable... Because it's really only an issue when the sapling is near the edge and villager is on the ledge.

BTW I'm sooooo glad we are actually ADRESSING the issues rather than yelling "no customs, unfair, jank". Basically pointing out problems with no solutions.

 

[CursedJay]

For people worried about villager's camp, can't we just ban the behavior?... They can have the two moves, but using them in tandem IN THAT WAY is unacceptable... Because it's really only an issue when the sapling is near the edge and villager is on the ledge.

BTW I'm sooooo glad we are actually ADRESSING the issues rather than yelling "no customs, unfair, jank". Basically pointing out problems with no solutions.

You can't ban a behavior, which is a big reason that some customs tend to amplify certain styles of play.

 

[Skarfelt]

There is literally no reason not to use customs since logistical problems have been solved.

Oh dude that's awesome I didn't know TOs were personally driving around to every single player's house and giving them customs to help with practicing!

Oh.

On a different note, I feel like there's a significant difference between how people feel about customs locally and how people feel about customs on Smashboards. Based on my knowledge, most local scenes seems to be shying away from customs after EVO, but a large majority supports them on Smashboards. Is there any particular reason? Is there just very little overlap between the Smashboards and local communities? I might be wrong about local scenes generally rejecting customs, as my knowledge of different local scenes is limited.

The community is segregated between several different groups - SmashBoards, Reddit, hundreds of FaceBooks. Pretty sure everyone can agree that Reddit is totally useless for discussing anything or using a poll due to its impulsive nature. Over on Smashboards, the competitive discussion boards have a friendly habit of telling people to stop posting and leave the thread if they disagree on ruleset changes so yeah it's absolutely no surprise there's a lot of pro custom discussion in the board that presents hostility to anti-custom users regularly.

Locals quite often have more newer players and more influence from the top players due to everyone knowing everyone. I know in London the top players just straight up didn't attend any tournaments with customs on until the TO finally caved and banned them. I'm not condoning that or saying we should boycott the "other side" - last thing I want this to become is Pro Custom vs Anti Custom when we should all just be Smash 4 players - but that's why locals tend not to use them from my experience.

Regarding setups at locals, everyone here in Ireland just brings a setup with them as a group thing. A guy has a 3DS with all the customs so I don't imagine it would take long to set up customs on setups if we did want a custom tournament.

 

[Illuminose]

Surprising no one, this is another poll that shows a continuing majority support customs. I plan to put together a much bigger post about this sometime tomorrow, but for now, I think EVO went VERY well and honestly don't see how anyone could watch that and say "you know, that made customs look bad". They mattered an awful lot but overall lost to default Sheik. If you saw a lot of the off-stream matches, they mattered too; heck, I played a custom Ganon and had a great set instead of the awful free win I would have had without customs.

As per Captain Awesum, well, the other topic I made today sums up how I feel about that...

I'm honestly surprised you place so much stock in community polls. Individuals on this forum are inclined more toward a liberal mindset than literally anywhere. It's a biased sample size of the community that proves basically nothing. Not only that, since when was public opinion a good way to decide our rulesets? If we put it up to a vote, we'd have 3 stock at major tournaments, but this completely ignores the fact that it is impossible to run a 3 stock major the size of EVO or Apex and have it finish within a reasonable amount of time. The realistic situation is that customs are looked down upon by the community at large and top players/TOs/community leaders in general. As those are the people you need to convince, a poll like this (with not even 300 votes no less) especially considering the environment it's in is meaningless.

Maybe you would like to be optimistic, but the current implementation has no chance at surviving in the eyes of public opinion and influential figures within the community. The only way for customs to have a chance is to come up with a comprehensive banlist of moves that are degenerate, overcentralizing, "janky", and/or broken. This really isn't that hard -- it's probably about 15-20 moves. If the custom moveset project can create a comprehensive solution to this issue, there would be much fewer complaints. You also have to convince influential TOs that the logistics are not a massive headache because that's still a major cause for concern at this point (Juggleguy has said so and that's the guy who is TOing both Super Smash Con and TBH5, go figure).

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Oh dude that's awesome I didn't know TOs were personally driving around to every single player's house and giving them customs to help with practicing!

Oh.

Players not personally having them to practice with isn't even an argument. Should everything unlockable be banned? Bye-bye Wario, Falco, R.O.B., Duck Hunt (character and stage), etc, players don't want to have to actually unlock you to practice with you. Might as well ban Smash 4 tournaments altogether, not every player wants to buy a Wii U!

It was a legit logistical problem once upon a time because asking a TO to unlock all the customs on multiple setups would be ridiculous. But, as evidenced by, well, customs existing in tournaments, that problem was solved. I mean, sure, some TO's might still have problems with it, and I get that, but the ones who have them should use them.

 

[CursedJay]

Players not personally having them to practice with isn't even an argument. Should everything unlockable be banned? Bye-bye Wario, Falco, R.O.B., Duck Hunt (character and stage), etc, players don't want to have to actually unlock you to practice with you. Might as well ban Smash 4 tournaments altogether, not every player wants to buy a Wii U!

It was a legit logistical problem once upon a time because asking a TO to unlock all the customs on multiple setups would be ridiculous. But, as evidenced by, well, customs existing in tournaments, that problem was solved.

Comparing the manner in which characters are unlocked and how customs are unlocked isn't even a discussion. You don't randomly unlock Falco, Wario, Rob or Duck Hunt. Unlocking customs is a very tedious process.

Sure, this isn't reason enough to ban them, but using the "Well nothing's exploded yet so we might as well keep them" mindset doesn't work. Not when customs are already such a pain to access for all characters.

 

[Ninj4pikachu]

Comparing the manner in which characters are unlocked and how customs are unlocked isn't even a discussion. You don't randomly unlock Falco, Wario, Rob or Duck Hunt. Unlocking customs is a very tedious process.

Sure, this isn't reason enough to ban them, but using the "Well nothing's exploded yet so we might as well keep them" mindset doesn't work. Not when customs are already such a pain to access for all characters.

Many people hack them on the 3DS and then just move the move sets up

 

[CursedJay]

I mean, sure, some TO's might still have problems with it, and I get that, but the ones who have them should use them.

Just to focus on this: This is the exact problem. Customs are NOT universal. People are having trouble unlocking them even now, myself included.

My proposition is this: Allow the standard meta to build up and THEN attempt to implement customs. People are trying to put icing on a cake that hasn't been baked yet. 8 months doesn't build a concrete meta, especially not with all the patches and character fixes that go on.

 

[Skarfelt]

Players not personally having them to practice with isn't even an argument. Should everything unlockable be banned? Bye-bye Wario, Falco, R.O.B., Duck Hunt (character and stage), etc, players don't want to have to actually unlock you to practice with you. Might as well ban Smash 4 tournaments altogether, not every player wants to buy a Wii U!

It was a legit logistical problem once upon a time because asking a TO to unlock all the customs on multiple setups would be ridiculous. But, as evidenced by, well, customs existing in tournaments, that problem was solved. I mean, sure, some TO's might still have problems with it, and I get that, but the ones who have them should use them.

It is a logistical problem for the casual player/newcomer to spend weeks unlocking Customs. I can unlock all the characters for Smash 4 in literally a few minutes. You can not do that with Customs. Customs are an absolute chore to unlock and harder to practice with. These are logistical problems. I mean I can word this point in as many different ways as you want me to do but unlocking customs for practice/matchup purposes is 100% a logistical problem.

 

[CursedJay]

It is a logistical problem for the casual player/newcomer to spend weeks unlocking Customs. I can unlock all the characters for Smash 4 in literally a few minutes. You can not do that with Customs. Customs are an absolute chore to unlock and harder to practice with. These are logistical problems. I mean I can word this point in as many different ways as you want me to do but unlocking customs for practice/matchup purposes is 100% a logistical problem.

It would be less of an issue if you only had to unlock your own customs. The fact that you have to unlock all custom sets and practice against each specific set to properly prepare yourself for the matchup is an actual chore. It blows the meta up to a level that we can not handle yet. We haven't even solved our default meta puzzle yet.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

Comparing the manner in which characters are unlocked and how customs are unlocked isn't even a discussion. You don't randomly unlock Falco, Wario, Rob or Duck Hunt. Unlocking customs is a very tedious process.

Sure, this isn't reason enough to ban them, but using the "Well nothing's exploded yet so we might as well keep them" mindset doesn't work. Not when customs are already such a pain to access for all characters.

I dunno, man, playing 100 matches to unlock Duck Hunt is pretty tedious.

Unlocking all customs is pretty tedious, I get that. I've done it, and it was not all fun. I hate that it has to be done at all, but it's really not a reason to ban them on its own. If it's just about players wanting to practice with/against them, it's not like they need to unlock all, just the ones they want to practice with. Despite what some people think, not a lot of customs are used commonly, so time can be taken to unlock all of them.

And lastly...it's not something TOs should be worried about in the first place. It's not their responsibility for players to know every match-up. Player laziness is not an excuse.

Just to focus on this: This is the exact problem. Customs are NOT universal. People are having trouble unlocking them even now, myself included.

My proposition is this: Allow the standard meta to build up and THEN attempt to implement customs. People are trying to put icing on a cake that hasn't been baked yet. 8 months doesn't build a concrete meta, especially not with all the patches and character fixes that go on.

I'm not saying all tournaments need to use customs. If a small local doesn't have customs because no one was able to get them, I understand. But for customs to be completely universally banned for logistical reasoning is ridiculous when some TOs are perfectly capable of getting them and even have them set up already.

 

[CursedJay]

I dunno, man, playing 100 matches to unlock Duck Hunt is pretty tedious.

Unlocking all customs is pretty tedious, I get that. I've done it, and it was not all fun. I hate that it has to be done at all, but it's really not a reason to ban them on its own. If it's just about players wanting to practice with/against them, it's not like they need to unlock all, just the ones they want to practice with. Despite what some people think, not a lot of customs are used commonly, so time can be taken to unlock all of them.

And lastly...it's not something TOs should be worried about in the first place. It's not their responsibility for players to know every match-up. Player laziness is not an excuse.


I'm not saying all tournaments need to use customs. If a small local doesn't have customs because no one was able to get them, I understand. But for customs to be completely universally banned for logistical reasoning is ridiculous when some TOs are perfectly capable of getting them and even have them set up already.

If customs are to be used, they are to be universally accepted. This whole "Customs here but No Customs there" thing works to create two completely separate playerbases. The custom guys won't attend non custom tourneys as their preferred moveset is not available, and the non custom guys can't be bothered to attend tourneys that they honestly not prepared for. It hurts player attendance numbers significantly. One should not feel the need to prepare for the other.

 

[Parallel_Falchion]

If customs are to be used, they are to be universally accepted. This whole "Customs here but No Customs there" thing works to create two completely separate playerbases. The custom guys won't attend non custom tourneys as their preferred moveset is not available, and the non custom guys can't be bothered to attend tourneys that they honestly not prepared for. It hurts player attendance numbers significantly. One should not feel the need to prepare for the other.

You make a decent point, but I don't agree. Some having customs and some not isn't much different from certain tourneys having a different stage list than others, or having 2 v 2s or 3 v 3s (which players typically won't be as prepared for as 1 v 1s), or doing 3 stock rather than 2 stock (whatever your preference is, there are still tourneys doing 3 stock). If we can handle these, we can handle customs.

 

[CursedJay]

The difference between these is a massive shift in playstyle. 2v2s, 3v3s, 2 stocks or 3, and in some cases even a change in stage list all deviate from the norm, forming a niche playerbase that does not deviate too far from the core competitive meta. Custom play is demanding for TOs to prepare and maintain and players to practice and prepare for. If nintendo provided a method of unlocking customs that wasn't so firmly based in RNG, then I'm sure that many rational players would consider the option of customs, as they would be easier to prepare for and provide. The number of times I've had to turn away a set up for not having the EVO standard set...

 

[CursedJay]

Ultimately, the matter of customs or non customs isn't a matter of jank, it is an issue of practicality and setting a standard.

 

[Charey]

Just to focus on this: This is the exact problem. Customs are NOT universal. People are having trouble unlocking them even now, myself included.

My proposition is this: Allow the standard meta to build up and THEN attempt to implement customs. People are trying to put icing on a cake that hasn't been baked yet. 8 months doesn't build a concrete meta, especially not with all the patches and character fixes that go on.

Except that will not happen, if customs get banned for say the next year then no TO will risk being the one to un-ban them because no one is used to playing against them.

Once things get banned they tend to stay banned because people get used to it not having to worry about it. MK in brawl was the exception, which was caused by people not wanting to learn a new character and using thier infulance to reverse the ban.

 

[CursedJay]

MK is the one instance of banning in recent memory that proved controversial. Most other bans, such as stages or equipment, are usually implemented because they don't benefit a competitive smash meta. Putting customs on the shelf for a while isn't necessarily a ban. Like I said: iron things out in the standard meta and then add customs to the mix. I dont think anyone's come to a reasonable conclusion yet on why they should be banned besides "they look jank/broken/stupid". My two biggest concerns in a concrete meta are accessibility and simplicity, and as of right now, custom characters do not work towards that. In fact, Customs works against those two principles right now. THAT IS NOT TO SAY that this will always be the case. I think customs has a place in the community, just not yet. Rushing things simply makes a mess.

 

[deepseadiva]

Smash probably won't ever be simple. We had to heavily configure a party game to something reasonably competitive. I don't think custom fighters goes any further than we already have. Especially when the default meta is contained within the custom meta anyway.

 

[CursedJay]

Smash probably won't ever be simple. We had to heavily configure a party game to something reasonably competitive. I don't think custom fighters goes any further than we already have. Especially when the default meta is contained within the custom meta anyway.

The custom meta is included within the standard meta, true. However, this much exposure has caused nothing but confusion up to this point. People are interested in customs, great! Interest noted. Once we sort out things in a standard meta, customs may be implemented to further expand the horizons of sm4sh.

What's happening now is too open ended for the community to handle. I keep saying it: 8+ months in and we still have not solved the puzzle of the default meta, and honestly we couldn't have done it yet anyway, what with all the patches and such.

People are excited for customs, but we have to have a base to work off of. Jumping headfirst into an ocean of a meta without learning how to swim in a pond is not wise.

 

[ぱみゅ]

MK is the one instance of banning in recent memory that proved controversial. Most other bans, such as stages or equipment, are usually implemented because they don't benefit a competitive smash meta.

Whoa, let me stop for a bit here.
People also are heavily opinionated against stages, even though most of them are perfectly fair.

 

[CursedJay]

Whoa, let me stop for a bit here.
People also are heavily opinionated against stages, even though most of them are perfectly fair.

Myself included. I hate castle siege as a counterpick and honestly think it should be banned.

Stage bans are sort of messy, but it was nothing compared to the backlash of banning a playable, accessible character.

Before someone hits me with the " But custom characters should count as banning characters because they play differently" counter arguement, allow me to quote myself:

... If nintendo provided a method of unlocking customs that wasn't so firmly based in RNG, then I'm sure that many rational players would consider the option of customs, as they would be easier to prepare for and provide.

....Accesibility, people.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Jay, please stop double posting.

And I completely have lost your train of thought. Are you agreeing that you're being opinionated? If so, what argument of yours should I be looking at/responding to?

Now, true, Customs are difficult to unlock, but it's worth it. You get all customs, you get all the needed tools to practice the game properly. Be it alone, with friends, online, or whatever.

 

[CursedJay]

Jay, please stop double posting.

Whoops. Mah B.

And I completely have lost your train of thought. Are you agreeing that you're being opinionated? If so, what argument of yours should I be looking at/responding to?

The castle siege thing was a side comment. God do I hate that stage lol.

My arguement is against customs, not because they're "Jank", but because as of right now, they are impractical.

Now, true, Customs are difficult to unlock, but it's worth it. You get all customs, you get all the needed tools to practice the game properly. Be it alone, with friends, online, or whatever.

This is why I don't believe customs will or should be banned forever. People just need time to unlock them or an easier method of unlocking them.

 

[Kuraudo]

If it didn't take up so much space (and if all Wii U's had every custom unlocked for personal creative usage), I think for Customs tournaments, players should only be allowed one altered move.

You play Shulk and wanna run Hyper Monado Arts and Power Vision? Pick one or the other. Do you play Dr. Mario and wanna rep Fast Pill? Go nuts.

For certain match-ups where Sonic prefers Hammer Spin Dash over regular Spin Dash? Go ahead, but you're not getting other customs. Does Palutena like Lightweight or Superspeed? Does Mii Brawler like the helicopter kick Up B?

Dong Cyclone? Allowing one custom special across the board for every character would be fair IMO. And TBH? It'd almost be like selecting your Ultra I or Ultra II in Street Fighter IV.

 

[G Rank Zinogre]

Personally, I think there should NOT be a solid yes/no answer to customs in tournaments. Cause that alone is very jarring to me. Why restrict customs to people who want them? Why isolate players who prefer customs off? Having one solid answer is a massive middle finger to the players who want the other answer. Don't their preferences matter too?

While I'm a pro-customs player, I do think it's totally wrong to go ONLY customs or ONLY non-customs.

EDIT: tl:dr Jerk it in different corners, people.

 

[ARGHETH]

I think for Customs tournaments, players should only be allowed one altered move.

You play Shulk and wanna run Hyper Monado Arts and Power Vision? Pick one or the other. Do you play Dr. Mario and wanna rep Fast Pill? Go nuts.

For certain match-ups where Sonic prefers Hammer Spin Dash over regular Spin Dash? Go ahead, but you're not getting other customs. Does Palutena like Lightweight or Superspeed? Does Mii Brawler like the helicopter kick Up B?

But most controversial customs (except for maybe Villager) are just the move themselves, so this would benefit those kinds of characters and harm others who benefit from multiple customs.

 

[ぱみゅ]

My arguement is against customs, not because they're "Jank", but because as of right now, they are impractical.

This is why I don't believe customs will or should be banned forever. People just need time to unlock them or an easier method of unlocking them.

The fundamental problem with this is that, if something gets banned, it's REALLY difficult to get it unbanned later on.

 

[WakerofWinds]

If it didn't take up so much space (and if all Wii U's had every custom unlocked for personal creative usage), I think for Customs tournaments, players should only be allowed one altered move.

You play Shulk and wanna run Hyper Monado Arts and Power Vision? Pick one or the other. Do you play Dr. Mario and wanna rep Fast Pill? Go nuts.

For certain match-ups where Sonic prefers Hammer Spin Dash over regular Spin Dash? Go ahead, but you're not getting other customs. Does Palutena like Lightweight or Superspeed? Does Mii Brawler like the helicopter kick Up B?

Dong Cyclone? Allowing one custom special across the board for every character would be fair IMO. And TBH? It'd almost be like selecting your Ultra I or Ultra II in Street Fighter IV.

The problem I have with this idea is what it exacerbates the issue many people have with customs already: it makes the top tiers even stronger. I think the gap is the biggest in this ruleset.

Think about it this way: Sheik only needs gravity grenade or piercing needles... if that. Diddy Kong only needs Rocketbarrel attack. ZSS only needs her other special (if that). Even Pikachu probably would be fine with just taking Heavy Skull Bash, and Sonic would be okay with just Hammer Spin Dash or just the custom springs.

On the other hand, the characters who REALLY benefit from customs a lot want more than one. Palutena wants at least two, Mii Brawler wants at least two, and WFT could probably get by with just one, but likely wants two.

That said, it does help characters who only have one good custom option, or who would only switch out one custom at a time depending on the situation. I think it's better as an all-or-nothing deal, but that's still just my opinion.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I've read the whole thread.

Lots of people put good arguements for customs.

Lots of people put good arguements for anti-customs.

I say just have two scenes.

Again, Single, Doubles, Singles + Customs, Doubles + Customs and in my dreams, Triples seems like the best idea.

It gets rid of the problem entirely and allows multiple scenes to grow.


I know I sound like I'm just going the easy way, but I've thought about this long and hard and I see this solution (if we can get it to happen) as the best long term solution.

Just make another scene and don't try to mix them. Everyone wins.

 

[Shouxiao]

I am mixed on customs. Some have heavy stall potential and may have to be banned. Some might be a bit too powerful. Most customs I am fine with though.

Honestly though I think the only customs that were truly balanced in mind are Palutena and Mii Fighters. I say this because their customs moves are unlocked from the start and that they are different instead of being variations of the original move.

Ultimately I say let the community decide. Some may have to be regulated though.

 

[WakerofWinds]

I've read the whole thread.

Lots of people put good arguements for customs.

Lots of people put good arguements for anti-customs.

I say just have two scenes.

Again, Single, Doubles, Singles + Customs, Doubles + Customs and in my dreams, Triples seems like the best idea.

It gets rid of the problem entirely and allows multiple scenes to grow.


I know I sound like I'm just going the easy way, but I've thought about this long and hard and I see this solution (if we can get it to happen) as the best long term solution.

Just make another scene and don't try to mix them. Everyone wins.

What happens when it's time for the large tournaments to come around? Which "scene" gets favored? It's okay for Smash only tournaments to perhaps have separate events, but what about tournaments like CEO or Evo? We certainly can't expect them to have two smash 4 events.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

What happens when it's time for the large tournaments to come around? Which "scene" gets favored? It's okay for Smash only tournaments to perhaps have separate events, but what about tournaments like CEO or Evo? We certainly can't expect them to have two smash 4 events.

The biggest scene.

Like Melee only has singles as it's the biggest scene.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The biggest scene.

Like Melee only has singles as it's the biggest scene.

That's a problem on itself.

I mean, I know where you're coming from, I'm a firm believer of "do what you feel is the best, Mr. TO (as long as is an informed decision)", and I love it when different regions have different rulesets (that make sense), and traveling means adapting to what other regions think is best. It's lovely in theory.

But in practice TOs just copy-paste rulesets of the next biggest event (Smashcon/SKTAR) or a previous one that seemed to work well (Apex/CEO). No thought, no exploring, no nothing, just there. Kind of sad imo.

So, if one of these "big events cater to one single, bigger community, chances are smaller events will just follow them blindly.

 

[LiteralGrill]

https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3drw2g/evo_2015_the_turning_point_for_sm4sh/ct84luw
actual tournament players don't like customs

Oh boy, I made a comment on the reddits and it's here... I am now doomed to discuss....

Appeal to majority/authority doesn't make your case, friend. Only cold, hard facts.

I know how many pages this is back so please forgive me a bit, but when it comes to Smash logic doesn't always decide the ruleset. In theory it SHOULD, but let's face it, it doesn't. If more players like customs off, and larger regions turn them off to accommodate this. The majority is gonna win out no matter how many well laid out logical points you make. It's happened since Melee on ruleset decisions and will continue to do so unless a huge shift in community conscience happens.

Now to quickly call something out here:

Hey guys, i've been pushing customs since the beginning, and i'm really glad to see where the polls got at, the team I work and lead at the moment (Hypest Team) is mostly responsible for pushing customs into Evo. Some of us have been in slight contact with Mr. Wizard, while the community and mainly our pool of players pushed a lot for customs to be on at Evo.

You mean while I was working at Hypest I shared things on Twitter, did an interview with Mr. Wizard where I asked how he felt about customs, and when people saw they had a chance when Mr. Wizard updated the rules folks like @ Amazing Ampharos got on Twitter and asked? I do good work for /r/smashbros and did great things with Hypest, but this is blatantly incorrect information being put out. Most of the work put into lots of the ruleset changes at Evo came from Twitter rallying based here on Smashboards not from the tournament team of the subreddit and its players.

Surprising no one, this is another poll that shows a continuing majority support customs.

Now come on AA, you know how many people never come here and discuss in places like regional Facebook groups and Twitter (or heck even /r/smashbros which seems quite mixed these days on pro custom or not). A poll here on Smashboards in a small thread with a very limited sample size means basically nothing in the grand scheme of things. (Even my poll with several thousand got ignored and for good reason in the end. It was a great concept, but could never get enough answers from folks to be a good sample size).

Anyways, more here to express my deep disappointment in this discussion in general. The amount of insults that have been used, condescending tones, and the like put me in a hard place. I love you all, I love this community, but it's kind of the love a Dad has where he can still feel annoyed by a kid throwing a tantrum. You can have such a better discussion than that, I know you can.

Personally, I no longer want customs. I do not feel that the logistical concerns they bring are worth the other things they bring to the table. That's right, I said feel. We're playing a game that lets us change all of the rules to play exactly how we want. Folks can be logical to a T but if folks don't like something, they won't do it and that reasoning is enough for them. You can't change peoples feelings easily, and this whole debate is basically over them. So best of luck finding a solution. Either way, I'll be here on the sidelines writing and supporting Smash 4.

 

[Electric91]

Yes @ LiteralGrill , correct, you did speak to mrwizzard while you were in Hypest, while you did it, you did it under the Hypest Team. Alot of people from our own pool of players pushed it aswell. There was an episode BEFORE the interview where he got asked en masse if customs were going to be used. When you did the interview with him his mind was already set onto using customs.

I don't wish to turn this debate onto cherry picking details.

 

[WritersBlah]

Surprising no one, this is another poll that shows a continuing majority support customs.

You know, as much as I hate to admit to this, I have to agree with the other people here saying the sample size for this poll has been far too small. I'm starting to think the Smashboards community has a disproportionate number of customs supporters that may not necessarily be reflective of the community as a whole. Trust me, had this project been pitched to one of the local Facebook groups, it never would've been given a second look. At least, that's the impression I've gotten from my Facebook group, all 80 or so of which hold a seething hatred for any and all customs (so finding any tournament that does customs in my area now will be next to impossible unless I find a venue of my own). That's sort of the issue social media has given us. This website used to be the number one website for literally anything revolving around competitive Smash, but nowadays it seems to be a progressively more isolated community with notably liberal ideals and a penchant for theory-crafting. Trust me, it's a lot more mature than other places to discuss Smash, but using this website as a measuring stick for what community opinions are is, unfortunately, not a realistic perspective to take anymore.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I don't wish to turn this debate onto cherry picking details.

I don't really either, but placing false importance acting like the entire team current or past was involved in some big way is rather disingenuous.

Anyways back to discussion, this post here from this thread really looked like something interesting. While not a perfect solution, it would be a way to get people very relunctant to at least dip their toes into the custom game.